The second _Great Migration_ series by R.C. Anderson, 3:414-20, contains a sketch of this immigrant, stating his parents were Henry and Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins of Ireland -- the mother was a cousin of the Winthrops who went to New England. Anderson quotes from a letter in the Winthrop papers in which Anne Hoskins writes from Ireland to the Governor in New England asking for news of her son.

Anne's mother (wife or mistress of her father John Winthrop of Aghadown, Ireland) is shown in this pedigree as Elizabeth daughter of Thomas Powlden:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Evidences_of_the_Winthrops_of_Groton/XPc7AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=hoskins

Unsure why _Evidences of the Winthrops_ doubts the validity of the Winthrop-Powlden marriage. It seems the father's divorced first wife also remarried (to Reynold Braunch).

Just wanted to point out that Geni contains links which permit the following pedigree for Elizabeth (Powlden) (Winthrop) Nott, apparent mother of Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins:

Robert Wingfield = Elizabeth Goushill

Anne Wingfield = John Fremingham/ Framlingham
https://www.geni.com/people/Lady-Anne-Wingfield/6000000000462683105

Sir James Framlingham = Alice Walworth

Elizabeth Framlingham = Thomas Roberts of Cranbrook, Kent
https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Roberts/6000000000462711148
Mary Roberts = Thomas Cheney of Woodhey

Dorothy Cheney = Thomas Polden/ Powlden of Rathgogan, Ireland
https://www.geni.com/people/Dorothy-Polden/6000000003649717135

I had independently come to the conclusion that Elizabeth Powlden's apparent father Thomas Powlden of Rathgogan had a son Morgan Powlden or Polden. See ...

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_Cork_Historical_and_Archa/t9x-AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22thomas+polden%22+rathgogan&pg=RA1-PA216-IA62&printsec=frontcover

Notice that the Geni account states that a 1644 petition by Morgan Polden named his parents "as Thomas Polden of Iwerne Minster, Dorset & Dorothy Cheney of Woodhay, Berkshire [daughter of Thomas Cheney, of Woodhay, Berkshire].." Geni states Thomas Powlden or Polden was son of an earlier Morgan Polden in Dorsetshire, so the name "Morgan" for his own son makes sense.

One of the Berkshire Visitations shows Dorothy (Cheney), wife of Thomas Polden one generation further down in the Cheney pedigree, though still retaining the descent from the Roberts family.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Four_Visitations_of_Berkshire_Made_a/NcFCAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=polden

I realize it could be the case, given the possible uncertainty of the Powlden-Winthrop marriage, that Anne Hoskins was John Winthrop's daughter by another relationship.

But does anyone see anything else obviously wrong with the line?

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:18:02 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> The second _Great Migration_ series by R.C. Anderson, 3:414-20, contains a sketch of this immigrant, stating his parents were Henry and Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins of Ireland -- the mother was a cousin of the Winthrops who went to New England. Anderson quotes from a letter in the Winthrop papers in which Anne Hoskins writes from Ireland to the Governor in New England asking for news of her son.
>
> Anne's mother (wife or mistress of her father John Winthrop of Aghadown, Ireland) is shown in this pedigree as Elizabeth daughter of Thomas Powlden:
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Evidences_of_the_Winthrops_of_Groton/XPc7AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=hoskins
>
> Unsure why _Evidences of the Winthrops_ doubts the validity of the Winthrop-Powlden marriage. It seems the father's divorced first wife also remarried (to Reynold Braunch).
>
> Just wanted to point out that Geni contains links which permit the following pedigree for Elizabeth (Powlden) (Winthrop) Nott, apparent mother of Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins:
>
> Robert Wingfield = Elizabeth Goushill
>
> Anne Wingfield = John Fremingham/ Framlingham
> https://www.geni.com/people/Lady-Anne-Wingfield/6000000000462683105
>
> Sir James Framlingham = Alice Walworth
>
> Elizabeth Framlingham = Thomas Roberts of Cranbrook, Kent
> https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Roberts/6000000000462711148
>
> Mary Roberts = Thomas Cheney of Woodhey
>
> Dorothy Cheney = Thomas Polden/ Powlden of Rathgogan, Ireland
> https://www.geni.com/people/Dorothy-Polden/6000000003649717135
>
> I had independently come to the conclusion that Elizabeth Powlden's apparent father Thomas Powlden of Rathgogan had a son Morgan Powlden or Polden. See ...
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_Cork_Historical_and_Archa/t9x-AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22thomas+polden%22+rathgogan&pg=RA1-PA216-IA62&printsec=frontcover
>
> Notice that the Geni account states that a 1644 petition by Morgan Polden named his parents "as Thomas Polden of Iwerne Minster, Dorset & Dorothy Cheney of Woodhay, Berkshire [daughter of Thomas Cheney, of Woodhay, Berkshire]." Geni states Thomas Powlden or Polden was son of an earlier Morgan Polden in Dorsetshire, so the name "Morgan" for his own son makes sense.
>
> One of the Berkshire Visitations shows Dorothy (Cheney), wife of Thomas Polden one generation further down in the Cheney pedigree, though still retaining the descent from the Roberts family.
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Four_Visitations_of_Berkshire_Made_a/NcFCAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=polden
>
> I realize it could be the case, given the possible uncertainty of the Powlden-Winthrop marriage, that Anne Hoskins was John Winthrop's daughter by another relationship.
>
> But does anyone see anything else obviously wrong with the line?

Oh, I guess these help some:

"In 1644, a Petition by Morgan Polden to establish his right to his Cheney inheritance, establishes that Thomas Polden [his father] was originally of Iwerne Minster, Dorset and married to Dorothy Cheney of Woodhay, Berkshire [Morgan Polden's mother]."
....
"1616 In the Surrey Archives, dated 2nd Feb 1616, is a "Deed of Covenant to Levy Fine" as follows: "1) Thomas Notte of Long Ditton, Esq., Robert de la Hay of Lincoln's Inn, Middlesex, gent, and George French of Furnivale's Inn, Middlesex, gent 2) Morgan Polden of Kiltoe [Kilcoe] Castle, Carbery, Cork, gent, and John Polden Closse of New Sarum, Wiltshire 1) to 2) on marriage of Thomas Notte and Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Polden and sister of Morgan Polden".

from...
https://www.geni.com/people/Thomas-Polden-Powlden/6000000003210378458

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:43:26 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:18:02 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> > The second _Great Migration_ series by R.C. Anderson, 3:414-20, contains a sketch of this immigrant, stating his parents were Henry and Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins of Ireland -- the mother was a cousin of the Winthrops who went to New England. Anderson quotes from a letter in the Winthrop papers in which Anne Hoskins writes from Ireland to the Governor in New England asking for news of her son.
> >
> > Anne's mother (wife or mistress of her father John Winthrop of Aghadown, Ireland) is shown in this pedigree as Elizabeth daughter of Thomas Powlden:
> >
> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Evidences_of_the_Winthrops_of_Groton/XPc7AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=hoskins
> >
> > Unsure why _Evidences of the Winthrops_ doubts the validity of the Winthrop-Powlden marriage. It seems the father's divorced first wife also remarried (to Reynold Braunch).
> >
> > Just wanted to point out that Geni contains links which permit the following pedigree for Elizabeth (Powlden) (Winthrop) Nott, apparent mother of Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins:
> >
> > Robert Wingfield = Elizabeth Goushill
> >
> > Anne Wingfield = John Fremingham/ Framlingham
> > https://www.geni.com/people/Lady-Anne-Wingfield/6000000000462683105
> >
> > Sir James Framlingham = Alice Walworth
> >
> > Elizabeth Framlingham = Thomas Roberts of Cranbrook, Kent
> > https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Roberts/6000000000462711148
> >
> > Mary Roberts = Thomas Cheney of Woodhey
> >
> > Dorothy Cheney = Thomas Polden/ Powlden of Rathgogan, Ireland
> > https://www.geni.com/people/Dorothy-Polden/6000000003649717135
> >
> > I had independently come to the conclusion that Elizabeth Powlden's apparent father Thomas Powlden of Rathgogan had a son Morgan Powlden or Polden.. See ...
> >
> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_Cork_Historical_and_Archa/t9x-AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22thomas+polden%22+rathgogan&pg=RA1-PA216-IA62&printsec=frontcover
> >
> > Notice that the Geni account states that a 1644 petition by Morgan Polden named his parents "as Thomas Polden of Iwerne Minster, Dorset & Dorothy Cheney of Woodhay, Berkshire [daughter of Thomas Cheney, of Woodhay, Berkshire]." Geni states Thomas Powlden or Polden was son of an earlier Morgan Polden in Dorsetshire, so the name "Morgan" for his own son makes sense.
> >
> > One of the Berkshire Visitations shows Dorothy (Cheney), wife of Thomas Polden one generation further down in the Cheney pedigree, though still retaining the descent from the Roberts family.
> >
> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Four_Visitations_of_Berkshire_Made_a/NcFCAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=polden
> >
> > I realize it could be the case, given the possible uncertainty of the Powlden-Winthrop marriage, that Anne Hoskins was John Winthrop's daughter by another relationship.
> >
> > But does anyone see anything else obviously wrong with the line?
> Oh, I guess these help some:
>
> "In 1644, a Petition by Morgan Polden to establish his right to his Cheney inheritance, establishes that Thomas Polden [his father] was originally of Iwerne Minster, Dorset and married to Dorothy Cheney of Woodhay, Berkshire [Morgan Polden's mother]."
> ...
> "1616 In the Surrey Archives, dated 2nd Feb 1616, is a "Deed of Covenant to Levy Fine" as follows: "1) Thomas Notte of Long Ditton, Esq., Robert de la Hay of Lincoln's Inn, Middlesex, gent, and George French of Furnivale's Inn, Middlesex, gent 2) Morgan Polden of Kiltoe [Kilcoe] Castle, Carbery, Cork, gent, and John Polden Closse of New Sarum, Wiltshire 1) to 2) on marriage of Thomas Notte and Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Polden and sister of Morgan Polden".
>
> from...
> https://www.geni.com/people/Thomas-Polden-Powlden/6000000003210378458

"Winthorpe, John of Aghedowne, gent 26 June 1611... the use of himself & Eliz: Paulden his wife for life; rem[ain]d[e]r to Eliz: Wife of Peregrine Baniste Esq. & to Anne Wife of Henry Hoskins, Gent, Daughters of the said Eliz: Paulden, and their Heirs - After the decease of the said Winthorpe & Wife, the said Bannister & Wife [conveyed their portion on] 19 Oct[obe]r 1631...."

https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Banister/6000000003077571221

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 10:29:12 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:43:26 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:18:02 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> > > The second _Great Migration_ series by R.C. Anderson, 3:414-20, contains a sketch of this immigrant, stating his parents were Henry and Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins of Ireland -- the mother was a cousin of the Winthrops who went to New England. Anderson quotes from a letter in the Winthrop papers in which Anne Hoskins writes from Ireland to the Governor in New England asking for news of her son.
> > >
> > > Anne's mother (wife or mistress of her father John Winthrop of Aghadown, Ireland) is shown in this pedigree as Elizabeth daughter of Thomas Powlden:
> > >
> > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Evidences_of_the_Winthrops_of_Groton/XPc7AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=hoskins
> > >
> > > Unsure why _Evidences of the Winthrops_ doubts the validity of the Winthrop-Powlden marriage. It seems the father's divorced first wife also remarried (to Reynold Braunch).
> > >
> > > Just wanted to point out that Geni contains links which permit the following pedigree for Elizabeth (Powlden) (Winthrop) Nott, apparent mother of Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins:
> > >
> > > Robert Wingfield = Elizabeth Goushill
> > >
> > > Anne Wingfield = John Fremingham/ Framlingham
> > > https://www.geni.com/people/Lady-Anne-Wingfield/6000000000462683105
> > >
> > > Sir James Framlingham = Alice Walworth
> > >
> > > Elizabeth Framlingham = Thomas Roberts of Cranbrook, Kent
> > > https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Roberts/6000000000462711148
> > >
> > > Mary Roberts = Thomas Cheney of Woodhey
> > >
> > > Dorothy Cheney = Thomas Polden/ Powlden of Rathgogan, Ireland
> > > https://www.geni.com/people/Dorothy-Polden/6000000003649717135
> > >
> > > I had independently come to the conclusion that Elizabeth Powlden's apparent father Thomas Powlden of Rathgogan had a son Morgan Powlden or Polden. See ...
> > >
> > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_Cork_Historical_and_Archa/t9x-AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22thomas+polden%22+rathgogan&pg=RA1-PA216-IA62&printsec=frontcover
> > >
> > > Notice that the Geni account states that a 1644 petition by Morgan Polden named his parents "as Thomas Polden of Iwerne Minster, Dorset & Dorothy Cheney of Woodhay, Berkshire [daughter of Thomas Cheney, of Woodhay, Berkshire]." Geni states Thomas Powlden or Polden was son of an earlier Morgan Polden in Dorsetshire, so the name "Morgan" for his own son makes sense.
> > >
> > > One of the Berkshire Visitations shows Dorothy (Cheney), wife of Thomas Polden one generation further down in the Cheney pedigree, though still retaining the descent from the Roberts family.
> > >
> > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Four_Visitations_of_Berkshire_Made_a/NcFCAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=polden
> > >
> > > I realize it could be the case, given the possible uncertainty of the Powlden-Winthrop marriage, that Anne Hoskins was John Winthrop's daughter by another relationship.
> > >
> > > But does anyone see anything else obviously wrong with the line?
> > Oh, I guess these help some:
> >
> > "In 1644, a Petition by Morgan Polden to establish his right to his Cheney inheritance, establishes that Thomas Polden [his father] was originally of Iwerne Minster, Dorset and married to Dorothy Cheney of Woodhay, Berkshire [Morgan Polden's mother]."
> > ...
> > "1616 In the Surrey Archives, dated 2nd Feb 1616, is a "Deed of Covenant to Levy Fine" as follows: "1) Thomas Notte of Long Ditton, Esq., Robert de la Hay of Lincoln's Inn, Middlesex, gent, and George French of Furnivale's Inn, Middlesex, gent 2) Morgan Polden of Kiltoe [Kilcoe] Castle, Carbery, Cork, gent, and John Polden Closse of New Sarum, Wiltshire 1) to 2) on marriage of Thomas Notte and Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Polden and sister of Morgan Polden".
> >
> > from...
> > https://www.geni.com/people/Thomas-Polden-Powlden/6000000003210378458
> "Winthorpe, John of Aghedowne, gent 26 June 1611... the use of himself & Eliz: Paulden his wife for life; rem[ain]d[e]r to Eliz: Wife of Peregrine Baniste Esq. & to Anne Wife of Henry Hoskins, Gent, Daughters of the said Eliz: Paulden, and their Heirs - After the decease of the said Winthorpe & Wife, the said Bannister & Wife [conveyed their portion on] 19 Oct[obe]r 1631...."
>
> https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Banister/6000000003077571221

There is an extant funeral certificate for Elizabeth's second husband:

"Casey index volume 7 has the following; Page 1875. Funeral Certificates in Ireland in the British Museum., presented by Rev R Pocock. Notte, Thomas of Archadown, Co Cork. Gent and heir of Anthony Notte of Surrey. He married Elizabeth Olden, daughter of Thomas Olden of Rogagan, Co Cork, Gent, & widow of John Winthropp of Gratten [Groton] in England. Had issue, 4 daughters; Elizabeth Notte married Henry Beecher of Archadown, Frances Notte, Mary Notte, Anne Notte. Thomas Notte died at Bruffe. Recorded Ulster office March 24, 1636. Testified by Elizabeth and Frances Notte."

Note that her name is given incorrectly (Olden, rather than Polden); and that she had daughters named Anne and Elizabeth by both husbands. (... Unless there was an earlier wife for Thomas Notte, unmentioned in this document.)

https://www.geni.com/people/Thomas-Notte/6000000032099611669

On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 10:29:12 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:43:26 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:18:02 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> > > > The second _Great Migration_ series by R.C. Anderson, 3:414-20, contains a sketch of this immigrant, stating his parents were Henry and Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins of Ireland -- the mother was a cousin of the Winthrops who went to New England. Anderson quotes from a letter in the Winthrop papers in which Anne Hoskins writes from Ireland to the Governor in New England asking for news of her son.
> > > >
> > > > Anne's mother (wife or mistress of her father John Winthrop of Aghadown, Ireland) is shown in this pedigree as Elizabeth daughter of Thomas Powlden:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Evidences_of_the_Winthrops_of_Groton/XPc7AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=hoskins
> > > >
> > > > Unsure why _Evidences of the Winthrops_ doubts the validity of the Winthrop-Powlden marriage. It seems the father's divorced first wife also remarried (to Reynold Braunch).
> > > >
> > > > Just wanted to point out that Geni contains links which permit the following pedigree for Elizabeth (Powlden) (Winthrop) Nott, apparent mother of Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins:
> > > >
> > > > Robert Wingfield = Elizabeth Goushill
> > > >
> > > > Anne Wingfield = John Fremingham/ Framlingham
> > > > https://www.geni.com/people/Lady-Anne-Wingfield/6000000000462683105
> > > >
> > > > Sir James Framlingham = Alice Walworth
> > > >
> > > > Elizabeth Framlingham = Thomas Roberts of Cranbrook, Kent
> > > > https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Roberts/6000000000462711148
> > > >
> > > > Mary Roberts = Thomas Cheney of Woodhey
> > > >
> > > > Dorothy Cheney = Thomas Polden/ Powlden of Rathgogan, Ireland
> > > > https://www.geni.com/people/Dorothy-Polden/6000000003649717135
> > > >
> > > > I had independently come to the conclusion that Elizabeth Powlden's apparent father Thomas Powlden of Rathgogan had a son Morgan Powlden or Polden. See ...
> > > >
> > > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_Cork_Historical_and_Archa/t9x-AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22thomas+polden%22+rathgogan&pg=RA1-PA216-IA62&printsec=frontcover
> > > >
> > > > Notice that the Geni account states that a 1644 petition by Morgan Polden named his parents "as Thomas Polden of Iwerne Minster, Dorset & Dorothy Cheney of Woodhay, Berkshire [daughter of Thomas Cheney, of Woodhay, Berkshire]." Geni states Thomas Powlden or Polden was son of an earlier Morgan Polden in Dorsetshire, so the name "Morgan" for his own son makes sense.
> > > >
> > > > One of the Berkshire Visitations shows Dorothy (Cheney), wife of Thomas Polden one generation further down in the Cheney pedigree, though still retaining the descent from the Roberts family.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Four_Visitations_of_Berkshire_Made_a/NcFCAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=polden
> > > >
> > > > I realize it could be the case, given the possible uncertainty of the Powlden-Winthrop marriage, that Anne Hoskins was John Winthrop's daughter by another relationship.
> > > >
> > > > But does anyone see anything else obviously wrong with the line?
> > > Oh, I guess these help some:
> > >
> > > "In 1644, a Petition by Morgan Polden to establish his right to his Cheney inheritance, establishes that Thomas Polden [his father] was originally of Iwerne Minster, Dorset and married to Dorothy Cheney of Woodhay, Berkshire [Morgan Polden's mother]."
> > > ...
> > > "1616 In the Surrey Archives, dated 2nd Feb 1616, is a "Deed of Covenant to Levy Fine" as follows: "1) Thomas Notte of Long Ditton, Esq., Robert de la Hay of Lincoln's Inn, Middlesex, gent, and George French of Furnivale's Inn, Middlesex, gent 2) Morgan Polden of Kiltoe [Kilcoe] Castle, Carbery, Cork, gent, and John Polden Closse of New Sarum, Wiltshire 1) to 2) on marriage of Thomas Notte and Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Polden and sister of Morgan Polden".
> > >
> > > from...
> > > https://www.geni.com/people/Thomas-Polden-Powlden/6000000003210378458
> > "Winthorpe, John of Aghedowne, gent 26 June 1611... the use of himself & Eliz: Paulden his wife for life; rem[ain]d[e]r to Eliz: Wife of Peregrine Baniste Esq. & to Anne Wife of Henry Hoskins, Gent, Daughters of the said Eliz: Paulden, and their Heirs - After the decease of the said Winthorpe & Wife, the said Bannister & Wife [conveyed their portion on] 19 Oct[obe]r 1631..."
> >
> > https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Banister/6000000003077571221
> There is an extant funeral certificate for Elizabeth's second husband:
>
> "Casey index volume 7 has the following; Page 1875. Funeral Certificates in Ireland in the British Museum., presented by Rev R Pocock. Notte, Thomas of Archadown, Co Cork. Gent and heir of Anthony Notte of Surrey. He married Elizabeth Olden, daughter of Thomas Olden of Rogagan, Co Cork, Gent, & widow of John Winthropp of Gratten [Groton] in England. Had issue, 4 daughters; Elizabeth Notte married Henry Beecher of Archadown, Frances Notte, Mary Notte, Anne Notte. Thomas Notte died at Bruffe. Recorded Ulster office March 24, 1636. Testified by Elizabeth and Frances Notte."
>
> Note that her name is given incorrectly (Olden, rather than Polden); and that she had daughters named Anne and Elizabeth by both husbands. (... Unless there was an earlier wife for Thomas Notte, unmentioned in this document..)
>
> https://www.geni.com/people/Thomas-Notte/6000000032099611669

The link between generations 3 and 4 seems to be verified in one of the _Early Chancery Proceedings_.

--Thomas Robers and Elizabeth, his wife, Richard Osborne and Clement, his wife, and William Kyrkeby and Dorothy, his wife. [Plaintiffs]
--John Garnysshe of Kenton, feoffee to uses. [Defendant]
--Refusal to maintain complainants' rights in the manors of Skottnettes, Hawghe, and Newclose in Debenham [Suff.], late of James Framyngham and Alice, his wife, parents of the said Elizabeth, Clement, and Dorothy, against Anne, his second wife.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lists_and_Indexes/t44CoPQWu8cC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=fram+yngham+debenham+robers&pg=RA1-PA499&printsec=frontcover