I realise that these people have often been discussed on this forum but usually
as asides linking dubious descents from the searches i have done of the archives.

What I would like to establish if possible is the sequence of marriages and
children of Pippin II d714, often called Pippin of Herstal.

Particularly I want to focus on Alpais/Alpaida/Chalpaida the mother of Charles
Martel. Much of secondary literature just says she was Pippins mistress, whereas
the sources are quite clear that Charles was born from another wife of Pippin,
that is different to Plectrude who outlived her husband. Alpais is named in
the contemporary continuation of the chronicle ascribed to Fredegar as a wife,
but this was sponsured by Childebrand, her son, so is it true? Some of the
merovingian kings such as Dagobert I had multiple wives so did Pippin II
conduct a bigamous 2nd marriage? Some later sources and historians link this
to the fallout which led to the murder of the St.Lambert of Liege, and later
still make Dodo the murderer the brother of Alpais. Is this just later legend?

Then there is the question of when this marriage happened and when Charles
Martel was born. Was he born before his parents marriage or after it?
PippinII seems married to Plecktrude by 680 at the latest and was still
living in 717. He had at least 2 sons by her who were old enough to
have political office by 706 and leave children of their own before they
both died. Does the fact Pippin calls Plectrude matrona and not uxor in
a charter of 706 have any significance? OTOH I dont think Alpais appears
at all in Pippins documents. So was Alpais as some german historians
surmise actually an Ehefrau, a common law wife? And did the sources which
date from the period of Carolingian dominance seek to legitimise Charles
martel the true founder of the Carolingian dynasty by claiming his parents
were married?

Lastly did none of the carolingian churchmen from the ninth century ever
address the question of Pippins 2 wives? After all the issue of Lothar IIs
2 wives and which was legitimate became a serious dynastic struggle in the 860s.

Mike

miked wrote:

> I realise that these people have often been discussed on this forum but usually
> as asides linking dubious descents from the searches i have done of the archives.

> What I would like to establish if possible is the sequence of marriages and
> children of Pippin II d714, often called Pippin of Herstal.

> Particularly I want to focus on Alpais/Alpaida/Chalpaida the mother of Charles
> Martel. Much of secondary literature just says she was Pippins mistress, whereas
> the sources are quite clear that Charles was born from another wife of Pippin,
> that is different to Plectrude who outlived her husband. Alpais is named in
> the contemporary continuation of the chronicle ascribed to Fredegar as a wife,
> but this was sponsored by Childebrand, her son, so is it true? Some of the
> merovingian kings such as Dagobert I had multiple wives so did Pippin II
> conduct a bigamous 2nd marriage? Some later sources and historians link this
> to the fallout which led to the murder of the St.Lambert of Liege, and later
> still make Dodo the murderer the brother of Alpais. Is this just later legend?

> Then there is the question of when this marriage happened and when Charles
> Martel was born. Was he born before his parents marriage or after it?
> PippinII seems married to Plectrude by 680 at the latest and

she

>was still
> living in 717. He had at least 2 sons by her who were old enough to
> have political office by 706 and leave children of their own before they
> both died

before him.

> Does the fact Pippin calls Plectrude matrona and not uxor in
> a charter of 706 have any significance? OTOH I dont think Alpais appears
> at all in Pippins documents. So was Alpais as some german historians
> surmise actually an Ehefrau, a common law wife? And did the sources which
> date from the period of Carolingian dominance seek to legitimise Charles
> martel the true founder of the Carolingian dynasty by claiming his parents
> were married?

> Lastly did none of the carolingian churchmen from the ninth century ever
> address the question of Pippins 2 wives? After all the issue of Lothar IIs
> 2 wives and which was legitimate became a serious dynastic struggle in the 860s.

Mike

On 24-Jan-24 10:12 AM, miked wrote:
> miked wrote:
>
>> I realise that these people have often been discussed on this forum
>> but usually
>> as asides linking dubious descents from the searches i have done of
>> the archives.
>
>> What I would like to establish if possible is the sequence of
>> marriages and
>> children of Pippin II d714, often called Pippin of Herstal.

There are no definite indications of dates for the marriages of Pippin
or for the births of his sons. Drogo, the eldest (son of Plectrude), was
probably born by ca 675 and his younger full-brother Grimoald not many
years later since he in turn had a son (Theudebald, on whose behalf
Plectrude tried to rule) evidently born in the first decade of the 8th
century. Charles Martel, son of Alpais, is generally supposed to have
been born ca 690. The maternity of Childebrand is by no means certain -
some historians have considered him another son of Alpais, some have
attributed him to an unknown concubine of Pippin.

>> Particularly I want to focus on Alpais/Alpaida/Chalpaida the mother of
>> Charles
>> Martel. Much of secondary literature just says she was Pippins
>> mistress, whereas
>> the sources are quite clear that Charles was born from another wife of
>> Pippin, that is different to Plectrude who outlived her husband.
>> Alpais is named in
>> the contemporary continuation of the chronicle ascribed to Fredegar as
>> a wife,
>> but this was sponsored by Childebrand, her son, so is it true? Some of
>> the merovingian kings such as Dagobert I had multiple wives so did
>> Pippin II
>> conduct a bigamous 2nd marriage? Some later sources and historians
>> link this to the fallout which led to the murder of the St.Lambert of
>> Liege, and later still make Dodo the murderer the brother of Alpais.
>> Is this just later legend?

It is usually thought to be fictitious although some historians have
considered there may be a nugget of truth underlying the legend. It was
popularised mainly by Sigebert of Gembloux in the 11th century.

As for multiple marriages of Merovingians, Chlothar I was married to two
sisters at the same time; Charibert had probably three wives - two of
them also sisters - simultaneously; Chilperic I promised to put aside
several wives ("plures uxores") in order to marry Galswintha, daughter
of the Visigoth king Athanagild; and Dagobert I kept three queens and
many concubines ("tres habebat maxime ad instar reginas et pluremas
concupinas"). In their time marriage was not yet under strict authority
from the Church, and Frankish law did not forbid polygamy.

The same circumstance still applied in the late-7th century although
change was coming by then. Pippin's marriage to Plectrude may have been
discontinued by agreement between them - she reportedly left for Cologne
with a great deal of wealth and lived in chastity among the nuns of her
foundation there. A wife could become veiled in the same way as a widow
with her husband's consent. Alternatively, Pippin may have taken Alpais
as a second wife alongside her without an agreement, but given
Plectrude's likely family connections, her immense property and her
political role she perhaps had the standing to make this kind of insult
risky.

>
>> Then there is the question of when this marriage happened and when
>> Charles Martel was born. Was he born before his parents marriage or
>> after it? PippinII seems married to Plectrude by 680 at the latest and
>
> she
>> was still living in 717. He had at least 2 sons by her who were old
>> enough to
>> have political office by 706 and leave children of their own before they
>> both died
>
> before him.
>> Does the fact Pippin calls Plectrude matrona and not uxor in a charter
>> of 706 have any significance? OTOH I dont think Alpais appears at all
>> in Pippins documents. So was Alpais as some german historians surmise
>> actually an Ehefrau, a common law wife? And did the sources which date
>> from the period of Carolingian dominance seek to legitimise Charles
>> martel the true founder of the Carolingian dynasty by claiming his
>> parents were married?

Plectrude is called "matrona" by narrative sources as well - this is not
at all contradictory to "uxor" as both have the same meaning of married
woman/wife. The notion of two classes of marriage - in German terms
"Muntehe" and "Friedelehe" - distinguished by the legal guardianship of
the woman transferred to the husband in the first and staying with her
birth family in the second - is now somewhat discredited. There is
nothing in near-contemporary sources to suggest that Alpais was inferior
in conjugal status. The first source to describe her as a concubine was
written over 100 years after Pippin's death - this is "Breviarium regum
Francorum" by Erchanbert, that was not published in full between 1790
and 2022 but now at last has a good edition (with German translation) by
Roland Zingg that can be downloaded here:
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/fmst-2022-0006/html - see
p. 136, "Carlus, filius Pipini ex concubina", in the context of his
narrow escape from detention by Plectrude in their contest for power.

>
>> Lastly did none of the carolingian churchmen from the ninth century
>> ever address the question of Pippins 2 wives? After all  the issue of
>> Lothar IIs 2 wives and which was legitimate became a serious dynastic
>> struggle in the 860s.

The dynamics between Church and rulers in questions of marriage had
shifted markedly by the 9th century. Charlemagne had legislated against
bigamous unions, forbidding anyone from taking a second spouse while a
first was still alive.

Peter Stewart

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Peter Stewart wrote:

> On 24-Jan-24 10:12 AM, miked wrote:
>> miked wrote:
>>
>>> I realise that these people have often been discussed on this forum
>>> but usually
>>> as asides linking dubious descents from the searches i have done of
>>> the archives.
>>
>>> What I would like to establish if possible is the sequence of
>>> marriages and
>>> children of Pippin II d714, often called Pippin of Herstal.

> There are no definite indications of dates for the marriages of Pippin
> or for the births of his sons. Drogo, the eldest (son of Plectrude), was
> probably born by ca 675 and his younger full-brother Grimoald not many
> years later since he in turn had a son (Theudebald, on whose behalf
> Plectrude tried to rule) evidently born in the first decade of the 8th
> century. Charles Martel, son of Alpais, is generally supposed to have
> been born ca 690. The maternity of Childebrand is by no means certain -
> some historians have considered him another son of Alpais, some have
> attributed him to an unknown concubine of Pippin.

Yes Childebrand precise relationship will probably remain a bit of a puzzel,
and forgive me for posting this, but someone has added this piece to his
wiki page:

"Some scholars believe that Childebrand was actually the half-brother of Charles Martel, related through his father. Childebran describes Charles Martel as 'germanus' meaning same mother, different father. Most accounts have Childebran's birth as 670 and the older half-brother of Charles Martel, with his father being named Fulcoald, who was the second son of Childebert, born in 602 to Theuderic II, King of Austrasia. Childebran's mother, Alpais, was the daughter of Childebert's first son, also named Childebran. Peppin and Alpais may have had another son, a younger brother of Charles Martel who was named Childebran as well. Childebran I acknowledged one son, Nivelon I, whose descendants bore the names of Fulcoald, Childebran, and Nivelon. William of Gellone and Raoul I(Robertian) are the only male descendants of Childebran I to become kings."

and referenced it with Age of Charles Martel by Fouracre, and Bouchards Creating Noble Families in Medieval Francia. I find it difficult to believe that either of them wrote any such thing. Apart
from the fact Childebrand did have a son Count Nibelung, the rest is surely rubbish.

Actually what Fouracre does point out is that when Pippins 2 sons died in 708 and 714,
each time Charles seems to have been ignored as a possible successor, instead
Plectrude was left in charge with a grandson who was probably only a child. This
doesnt sound as if either Alpais or Charles had much influence or official
standing while Pippin II was alive. Gerberding suggests Alpais came from an
important noble family in the Meuse area, but on what basis I dont know. The fact
that Pippin II had other adult sons like Charles and perhaps Childebrand as well,
but chose to ignore them for Plectrude and a child, suggests to me that Alpais
was probably not his wife and perhaps actually not noble at all, whatever the
writers employed by Childebrand later said.

>>> Particularly I want to focus on Alpais/Alpaida/Chalpaida the mother of
>>> Charles
>>> Martel. Much of secondary literature just says she was Pippins
>>> mistress, whereas
>>> the sources are quite clear that Charles was born from another wife of
>>> Pippin, that is different to Plectrude who outlived her husband.
>>> Alpais is named in
>>> the contemporary continuation of the chronicle ascribed to Fredegar as
>>> a wife,
>>> but this was sponsored by Childebrand, her son, so is it true? Some of
>>> the merovingian kings such as Dagobert I had multiple wives so did
>>> Pippin II
>>> conduct a bigamous 2nd marriage? Some later sources and historians
>>> link this to the fallout which led to the murder of the St.Lambert of
>>> Liege, and later still make Dodo the murderer the brother of Alpais.
>>> Is this just later legend?

> It is usually thought to be fictitious although some historians have
> considered there may be a nugget of truth underlying the legend. It was
> popularised mainly by Sigebert of Gembloux in the 11th century.

Apparently Lambert was murdered about 700 by Dodo, so sometime after
the putative birth of Charles and/or marriage of Alpais to Pippin II,
and I forgotten the source but it might be the later Annals of Liege,
which says Dodo did this because Lamberts men had killed his parents.
So possibly Dodo had nothing to do with Alpais at all. I did read that
Grimoald was murdered while he was praying at the shrine to St.Lambert,
which may be a coincidence, or there may be a connection afterall. His
murderer was a frisian and I believe he had married the daughter of their
Duke Ratbod, so both murders might be purely private feuds, unless we
believe that Alpais was secretly working behind the scenes to bump off
Plectrudes sons 1 by 1!

> As for multiple marriages of Merovingians, Chlothar I was married to two
> sisters at the same time; Charibert had probably three wives - two of
> them also sisters - simultaneously; Chilperic I promised to put aside
> several wives ("plures uxores") in order to marry Galswintha, daughter
> of the Visigoth king Athanagild; and Dagobert I kept three queens and
> many concubines ("tres habebat maxime ad instar reginas et pluremas
> concupinas"). In their time marriage was not yet under strict authority
> from the Church, and Frankish law did not forbid polygamy.

> The same circumstance still applied in the late-7th century although
> change was coming by then. Pippin's marriage to Plectrude may have been
> discontinued by agreement between them - she reportedly left for Cologne
> with a great deal of wealth and lived in chastity among the nuns of her
> foundation there. A wife could become veiled in the same way as a widow
> with her husband's consent. Alternatively, Pippin may have taken Alpais
> as a second wife alongside her without an agreement, but given
> Plectrude's likely family connections, her immense property and her
> political role she perhaps had the standing to make this kind of insult
> risky.

Plectrude appears as his wife in ?2 charters dated 706 [i've not seen these
but the ref is apparently MGH Diplomatum Imperii I, p93-4] so she couldnt
have retired by then, and if Charles was born c690 [i dont know the basis of
this but clearly he was an adult in 714, Fouracre says 688], then Pippin
Plectrude and Alpais had been in a menage a trois for 16 years which rivals the
recent turmoil in the house of Windsor. So either it was bigamy although Plectrude
remained his official wife in his docs, or Alpais was an unimportant mistress or
concubine who later on was made into a wife by chroniclers working under Charles
and Pippin III.

I notice that recent historians have hedged on this, Wood [Merovingian kingdoms]
calls it bigamous [p239] later says wife or concubine [p261], as does
Mckitterick [Frankish kingdoms, p30]. Fredegar says that after Pippin II died
Plectrude took everything into her own hands, which doesnt suggest that
she was far away in some convent in 714.

>>
>>> Then there is the question of when this marriage happened and when
>>> Charles Martel was born. Was he born before his parents marriage or
>>> after it? PippinII seems married to Plectrude by 680 at the latest and
>>
>> she
>>> was still living in 717. He had at least 2 sons by her who were old
>>> enough to
>>> have political office by 706 and leave children of their own before they
>>> both died
>>
>> before him.
>>> Does the fact Pippin calls Plectrude matrona and not uxor in a charter
>>> of 706 have any significance? OTOH I dont think Alpais appears at all
>>> in Pippins documents. So was Alpais as some german historians surmise
>>> actually an Ehefrau, a common law wife? And did the sources which date
>>> from the period of Carolingian dominance seek to legitimise Charles
>>> martel the true founder of the Carolingian dynasty by claiming his
>>> parents were married?

> Plectrude is called "matrona" by narrative sources as well - this is not
> at all contradictory to "uxor" as both have the same meaning of married
> woman/wife. The notion of two classes of marriage - in German terms
> "Muntehe" and "Friedelehe" - distinguished by the legal guardianship of
> the woman transferred to the husband in the first and staying with her
> birth family in the second - is now somewhat discredited. There is
> nothing in near-contemporary sources to suggest that Alpais was inferior
> in conjugal status. The first source to describe her as a concubine was
> written over 100 years after Pippin's death - this is "Breviarium regum
> Francorum" by Erchanbert, that was not published in full between 1790
> and 2022 but now at last has a good edition (with German translation) by
> Roland Zingg that can be downloaded here:
> https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/fmst-2022-0006/html - see
> p. 136, "Carlus, filius Pipini ex concubina", in the context of his
> narrow escape from detention by Plectrude in their contest for power.

As I no longer have the will, energy or eyesight to keep up with
sprawling posts, nor to do much beyond providing links to sources and
copy-pasting relevant quotations, I shall respond to one sub-topic at a
time:

On 26-Jan-24 4:01 AM, miked wrote:
> Peter Stewart wrote:

<snip>

>>>> Particularly I want to focus on Alpais/Alpaida/Chalpaida the mother
>>>> of Charles
>>>> Martel. Much of secondary literature just says she was Pippins
>>>> mistress, whereas
>>>> the sources are quite clear that Charles was born from another wife
>>>> of Pippin, that is different to Plectrude who outlived her husband.
>>>> Alpais is named in
>>>> the contemporary continuation of the chronicle ascribed to Fredegar
>>>> as a wife,
>>>> but this was sponsored by Childebrand, her son, so is it true? Some
>>>> of the merovingian kings such as Dagobert I had multiple wives so
>>>> did Pippin II
>>>> conduct a bigamous 2nd marriage? Some later sources and historians
>>>> link this to the fallout which led to the murder of the St.Lambert
>>>> of Liege, and later still make Dodo the murderer the brother of
>>>> Alpais. Is this just later legend?
>
>> It is usually thought to be fictitious although some historians have
>> considered there may be a nugget of truth underlying the legend. It
>> was popularised mainly by Sigebert of Gembloux in the 11th century.
>
> Apparently Lambert was murdered about 700 by Dodo, so sometime after
> the putative birth of Charles and/or marriage of Alpais to Pippin II,
> and I forgotten the source but it might be the later Annals of Liege,
> which says Dodo did this because Lamberts men had killed his parents. So
> possibly Dodo had nothing to do with Alpais at all. I did read that
> Grimoald was murdered while he was praying at the shrine to St.Lambert,
> which may be a coincidence, or there may be a connection afterall. His
> murderer was a frisian and I believe he had married the daughter of
> their Duke Ratbod, so both murders might be purely private feuds, unless we
> believe that Alpais was secretly working behind the scenes to bump off
> Plectrudes sons 1 by 1!

St Lambert was murdered in September 703/05. The legendary account with
a sibling relationship behind the motive for his murder first occurs in
Annales Lobienses, compiled at Lobbes in the diocese of Cambrai at the
end of the 10th century, see lines 8-9 on p. 227 here:
https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_ss_13/index.htm#page/227/mode/1up.

As noted before, this version of the story was taken up, elaborated and
popularised by Sigebert of Gembloux in his Vita of St Lambert written
1075/80, see from p. 397 here:
https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_ss_rer_merov_6/index.htm#page/397/mode/1up.

Richard Gerberding in *The Rise of the Carolingians* (Oxford, 1987), pp.
117-119 wrote [LHF = Liber historiae Francorum, written 727/36]:

"Charles Martel's origins are problematic to say the least. While the
contemporary sources focused their attention on Pippin's wife Plectrud,
her family, and her offspring, Martel's maternal connections were left
decidedly in the shadows. The LHF-author assures us that Martel was
Pippin's son by a wife, that is to say not by a concubine, and the
Fredegar Continuator calls her educated, of noble birth, and gives us
her name, Alpaida ...

"Although the LHF-author gave no name to Charles Martel's mother, a
later copyist of the work did so. In a Paris manuscript [BnF latin 10911
fol 45 v, https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9078401h/f48 in the
third line on the left, above 'ex alia uxore ∙ nomine chalpiade' (sic, a
scribal error for 'chalpaide')] written in Liège in the ninth century,
Alpaida is named as Pippin's other wife in the text of chapter 49. Above
her name in a near-contemporary hand are written two significant words,
'soror dodonis'. The claim that Alpaida was the sister of Dodo, the
powerful domesticus from Liège, has been universally rejected by recent
historians because they have considered it a tendentious development of
Liège hagiography which sought to present Saint Lambert's martyrdom as
having moral rather than political causes. The first life of Lambert
which we have is a nearly-contemporary one; it was written in the first
half of the eighth century. It is clearly the most trustworthy and makes
no mention of Alpaida. In this vita, Lambert was murdered by Dodo's men
in the course of a local vendetta in which two of Dodo's close relatives
had been killed. In the earlier works following this one which also
treat Lambert's death, another story appeared in which he was killed
because he had made recriminations against Pippin for taking a
concubine. Although some name the concubine Alpaida, none call her
Dodo's sister. It is not until the late tenth or even the eleventh
century that works carrying the accounts of Lambert's death make them
siblings.

"The secondary literature has certainly been correct in rejecting as a
pious legend the story of Lambert's recriminations against Alpaida as
the motive for his death. But in throwing out that story, scholars have
been too hasty when they also threw out the indication that Dodo and
Alpaida were brother and sister simply because that relationship
appeared as central to the legend. This is the case for many reasons..."

Gerberding was mistaken in thinking that 'soror dodonis' interpolated in
the 9th-century copy of 'Liber historiae Francorum' was written by 'a
near-contemporary hand', as it was clearly in the same 15th-century hand
as more substantial additions in the same manuscript such as on folios
8r (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9078401h/f10) and 9r
(https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9078401h/f).

Peter Stewart

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On 26-Jan-24 4:01 AM, miked wrote:
> Peter Stewart wrote:
>
>> On 24-Jan-24 10:12 AM, miked wrote:
>>> miked wrote:
>>>
>>>> I realise that these people have often been discussed on this forum
>>>> but usually
>>>> as asides linking dubious descents from the searches i have done of
>>>> the archives.
>>>
>>>> What I would like to establish if possible is the sequence of
>>>> marriages and
>>>> children of Pippin II d714, often called Pippin of Herstal.
>
>> There are no definite indications of dates for the marriages of Pippin
>> or for the births of his sons. Drogo, the eldest (son of Plectrude),
>> was probably born by ca 675 and his younger full-brother Grimoald not
>> many years later since he in turn had a son (Theudebald, on whose
>> behalf Plectrude tried to rule) evidently born in the first decade of
>> the 8th century. Charles Martel, son of Alpais, is generally supposed
>> to have been born ca 690. The maternity of Childebrand is by no means
>> certain - some historians have considered him another son of Alpais,
>> some have attributed him to an unknown concubine of Pippin.
>
> Yes Childebrand precise relationship will probably remain a bit of a
> puzzel,
> and forgive me for posting this, but someone has added this piece to his
> wiki page:
>
> "Some scholars believe that Childebrand was actually the half-brother of
> Charles Martel, related through his father. Childebran describes Charles
> Martel as 'germanus' meaning same mother, different father. Most
> accounts have Childebran's birth as 670 and the older half-brother of
> Charles Martel, with his father being named Fulcoald, who was the second
> son of Childebert, born in 602 to Theuderic II, King of Austrasia.
> Childebran's mother, Alpais, was the daughter of Childebert's first son,
> also named Childebran. Peppin and Alpais may have had another son, a
> younger brother of Charles Martel who was named Childebran as well.
> Childebran I acknowledged one son, Nivelon I, whose descendants bore the
> names of Fulcoald, Childebran, and Nivelon. William of Gellone and Raoul
> I(Robertian) are the only male descendants of Childebran I to become
> kings."
>
> and referenced it with Age of Charles Martel by Fouracre, and Bouchards
> Creating Noble Families in Medieval Francia. I find it difficult to
> believe that either of them wrote any such thing. Apart
> from the fact Childebrand did have a son Count Nibelung, the rest is
> surely rubbish.

Worse than rubbish, and the citations are bogus for the nonsense
presented - even the title of Constance Bouchard's book is wrong, it is
correctly *"Those of my Blood": Constructing Noble Families in Medieval
Francia*, The Middle Ages series (Philadelphia, 2001). How Wikipedia can
allow people to mess with entries who are capable of stating "This
article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain:
Wood, James, ed. (1907). The Nuttall Encyclopædia. London and New York:
Frederick Warne. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)"
is a mystery to me.

The only point actually taken from Fouracre and Bouchard is that
Childebrand was said by both of them to have been a half-brother of
Charles Martel. Fouracre wrote (p. 160): "Charles also had a
half-brother, Childebrand, who, as we have seen, commissioned the first
Continuation of Fredegar"; Bouchard wrote (p. 141): "Childebrand I,
called a germanus of Charles Martel (probably half-brother, by different
mothers)". Neither of them, of course, confused two namesake counts of
Autun, William of Gellone's father Theoderic (dead before 14 December
804) and Childebrand's great-great-grandson Theoderic (born ca 815).

> Actually what Fouracre does point out is that when Pippins 2 sons died
> in 708 and 714,
> each time Charles seems to have been ignored as a possible successor,
> instead Plectrude was left in charge with a grandson who was probably
> only a child. This
> doesnt sound as if either Alpais or Charles had much influence or official
> standing while Pippin II was alive. Gerberding suggests Alpais came from an
> important noble family in the Meuse area, but on what basis I dont know.
> The fact
> that Pippin II had other adult sons like Charles and perhaps Childebrand
> as well, but chose to ignore them for Plectrude and a child, suggests to
> me that Alpais was probably not his wife and perhaps actually not noble
> at all, whatever the writers employed by Childebrand later said.

Waltraud Joch in *Legitimität und Integration: Untersuchungen zu den
Anfängen Karl Martells*, Historische Studien 456 (Husum, 1999) argued
that Charles Martel was treated as a fully-legitimate son at first,
baptised by a bishop who was his godfather and included as an equal in
the personal inheritance of his father - indeed sharing in property that
had come to Pippin through marriage with Plectrude - but was evidently
excluded from the political inheritance later, maybe to protect his
brothers and their offspring from his ambitious and ruthless nature when
this became obvious. It is worth remembering that Plectrude's grandson
Theudebald, through whom she attempted to rule when the child was made
maior domus in Austrasia, was the son of Grimoald by a concubine.
Attitudes to legitimacy were different then, as I pointed out before.
The Church had not yet taken pre-emptive charge of marriage and there
was no definitive guidance in Frankish law.

Peter Stewart

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On 26-Jan-24 4:01 AM, miked wrote:
> Peter Stewart wrote:
>
>> On 24-Jan-24 10:12 AM, miked wrote:
>>> miked wrote:

<snip>

> Plectrude appears as his wife in ?2 charters dated 706 [i've not seen these
> but the ref is apparently MGH Diplomatum Imperii I, p93-4] so she couldnt
> have retired by then, and if Charles was born c690 [i dont know the
> basis of
> this but clearly he was an adult in 714, Fouracre says 688], then Pippin
> Plectrude and Alpais had been in a menage a trois for 16 years which
> rivals the recent turmoil in the house of Windsor. So either it was
> bigamy although Plectrude remained his official wife in his docs, or
> Alpais was an unimportant mistress or concubine who later on was made
> into a wife by chroniclers working under Charles and Pippin III.
>
> I notice that recent historians have hedged on this, Wood [Merovingian
> kingdoms]
> calls it bigamous [p239] later says wife or concubine [p261], as does
> Mckitterick [Frankish kingdoms, p30]. Fredegar says that after Pippin II
> died
> Plectrude took everything into her own hands, which doesnt suggest that
> she was far away in some convent in 714.

Cologne was not far away, and Plectrude was not a professed nun
forbidden to leave her convent - like Charlemange's sister Gisla (who
was an abbess), she may have gone to & from the royal court continuing
to involve herself in politics as she pleased. Her family standing,
wealth and priority as wife would have enabled her to remain her
husband's primary consort, whether still permanently cohabiting with him
or not.

There are several authentic charters in which Plectrude is named as
Pippin's "illustra/illustris matrona" after the birth of Charles Martel
- see https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_arnulf/index.htm#page/9/mode/1up, dated
20 January 701;
https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_arnulf/index.htm#page/12/mode/1up and
https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_arnulf/index.htm#page/13/mode/1up, both dated
13 May 706; and (named as "Blittrudis")
https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_arnulf/index.htm#page/16/mode/1up, dated 2
March 714.

According to a legend documented from the 930s Pippin and Plectrude
founded Saint-Hubert abbey in response to a letter fallen from heaven
and found by her near the site in the Ardenne. She was no doubt a very
pious and much-travelled lady, to whom in that era a chaste marriage
after producing heirs may have been highly desirable. If her mother was
St Irmina, who became abbess of Oeren, she had a ready model.

Peter Stewart

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Peter Stewart wrote:

> On 26-Jan-24 4:01 AM, miked wrote:
>> Peter Stewart wrote:
>>
>>> On 24-Jan-24 10:12 AM, miked wrote:
>>>> miked wrote:

> <snip>

>> Plectrude appears as his wife in ?2 charters dated 706 [i've not seen these
>> but the ref is apparently MGH Diplomatum Imperii I, p93-4] so she couldnt
>> have retired by then, and if Charles was born c690 [i dont know the
>> basis of
>> this but clearly he was an adult in 714, Fouracre says 688], then Pippin
>> Plectrude and Alpais had been in a menage a trois for 16 years which
>> rivals the recent turmoil in the house of Windsor. So either it was
>> bigamy although Plectrude remained his official wife in his docs, or
>> Alpais was an unimportant mistress or concubine who later on was made
>> into a wife by chroniclers working under Charles and Pippin III.
>>
>> I notice that recent historians have hedged on this, Wood [Merovingian
>> kingdoms]
>> calls it bigamous [p239] later says wife or concubine [p261], as does
>> Mckitterick [Frankish kingdoms, p30]. Fredegar says that after Pippin II
>> died
>> Plectrude took everything into her own hands, which doesnt suggest that
>> she was far away in some convent in 714.

> Cologne was not far away, and Plectrude was not a professed nun
> forbidden to leave her convent - like Charlemange's sister Gisla (who
> was an abbess), she may have gone to & from the royal court continuing
> to involve herself in politics as she pleased. Her family standing,
> wealth and priority as wife would have enabled her to remain her
> husband's primary consort, whether still permanently cohabiting with him
> or not.

> There are several authentic charters in which Plectrude is named as
> Pippin's "illustra/illustris matrona" after the birth of Charles Martel
> - see https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_arnulf/index.htm#page/9/mode/1up, dated
> 20 January 701;
> https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_arnulf/index.htm#page/12/mode/1up and
> https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_arnulf/index.htm#page/13/mode/1up, both dated
> 13 May 706; and (named as "Blittrudis")
> https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_arnulf/index.htm#page/16/mode/1up, dated 2
> March 714.

> According to a legend documented from the 930s Pippin and Plectrude
> founded Saint-Hubert abbey in response to a letter fallen from heaven
> and found by her near the site in the Ardenne. She was no doubt a very
> pious and much-travelled lady, to whom in that era a chaste marriage
> after producing heirs may have been highly desirable. If her mother was
> St Irmina, who became abbess of Oeren, she had a ready model.

> Peter Stewart

Thankyou very much for your comments. Much appreciated as always.

Mike