William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
noted before.

I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice Lees’
book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It is
an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of William
and also William’s son Philip.

However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the
William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
just around this time.

Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while William
(III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat answer is
that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother for William
(III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in the charter,
this is evidence for the existence of this son!

See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html

On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
> William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
> noted before.
>
> I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice Lees’
> book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It is
> an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
> concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
> charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of William
> and also William’s son Philip.
>
> However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the
> William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
> just around this time.
>
> Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while William
> (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat answer is
> that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother for William
> (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in the charter,
> this is evidence for the existence of this son!
>
> See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html

William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego Willelmus
dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi ... Hanc
confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc autem testes
idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem meum").

Peter Stewart

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On 20/04/2024 01:18, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
>> William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
>> noted before.
>>
>> I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice Lees’
>> book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It is
>> an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
>> concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
>> charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of
>> William and also William’s son Philip.
>>
>> However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the
>> William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
>> just around this time.
>>
>> Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
>> William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
>> answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother
>> for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in
>> the charter, this is evidence for the existence of this son!
>>
>> See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html
>
> William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
> both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
> here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego Willelmus
> dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi ... Hanc
> confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc autem testes
> idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem meum").
>
> Peter Stewart
>
Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I thought
I knew all these St Florent documents well.

Doug

On 20-Apr-24 7:28 PM, Doug Thompson wrote:
> On 20/04/2024 01:18, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
>>> William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
>>> noted before.
>>>
>>> I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice Lees’
>>> book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It
>>> is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
>>> concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
>>> charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of
>>> William and also William’s son Philip.
>>>
>>> However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the
>>> William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
>>> just around this time.
>>>
>>> Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
>>> William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
>>> answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother
>>> for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in
>>> the charter, this is evidence for the existence of this son!
>>>
>>> See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html
>>
>> William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
>> both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
>> here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
>> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
>> Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi
>> ... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc
>> autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem
>> meum").
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
> Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I thought
> I knew  all these St Florent documents well.

The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade or
so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs in a
charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of Religious
Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Amélie Rigollet in
*Mobilités du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe siècle-1326)*
(2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the charter dated in
that year, another donation at Annington, that was confirmed by William
II. Since Berta's parents were not married until 1121, a concession by
her younger son Philip is more likely to have been made ca 1153 that ca
1140.

Philip occurs in other records cited by Rigollet:

Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87 (holding
from the king at Stanford)

12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of Naas
made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
*Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London, 2007),
vol. 1, p. 164, no. 263, also here:
https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_012.html and here:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.

Peter Stewart

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www.avg.com

On 21/04/2024 01:49, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 20-Apr-24 7:28 PM, Doug Thompson wrote:
>> On 20/04/2024 01:18, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>> On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
>>>> William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
>>>> noted before.
>>>>
>>>> I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice
>>>> Lees’ book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth
>>>> century. It is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of
>>>> Sele Priory concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated
>>>> 1181 in the charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the
>>>> brother of William and also William’s son Philip.
>>>>
>>>> However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether
>>>> the William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II)
>>>> died just around this time.
>>>>
>>>> Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
>>>> William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
>>>> answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother
>>>> for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in
>>>> the charter, this is evidence for the existence of this son!
>>>>
>>>> See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html
>>>
>>> William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
>>> both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
>>> here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
>>> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
>>> Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi
>>> ... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc
>>> autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem
>>> meum").
>>>
>>> Peter Stewart
>>>
>> Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I
>> thought I knew  all these St Florent documents well.
>
> The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade or
> so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs in a
> charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of Religious
> Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Amélie Rigollet in
> *Mobilités du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe siècle-1326)*
> (2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the charter dated in
> that year, another donation at Annington, that was confirmed by William
> II. Since Berta's parents were not married until 1121, a concession by
> her younger son Philip is more likely to have been made ca 1153 that ca
> 1140.
>
> Philip occurs in other records cited by Rigollet:
>
> Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87 (holding
> from the king at Stanford)
>
> 12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of Naas
> made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
> *Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London, 2007),
> vol. 1, p. 164, no. 263, also here:
> https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_012.html and here:
> https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
>
Agreed about the uncertain dating by Marchegay, but I thought the
references you give below are to the brother of William II not his son.
Is there any way to know this?

Doug

On 22-Apr-24 12:12 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
> On 21/04/2024 01:49, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 20-Apr-24 7:28 PM, Doug Thompson wrote:
>>> On 20/04/2024 01:18, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>>> On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
>>>>> William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not
>>>>> been noted before.
>>>>>
>>>>> I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice
>>>>> Lees’ book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth
>>>>> century. It is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of
>>>>> Sele Priory concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated
>>>>> 1181 in the charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the
>>>>> brother of William and also William’s son Philip.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether
>>>>> the William in question is William(II) or William (III).
>>>>> William(II) died just around this time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
>>>>> William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
>>>>> answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a
>>>>> brother for William (III). So, without knowing which William is
>>>>> concerned in the charter, this is evidence for the existence of
>>>>> this son!
>>>>>
>>>>> See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html
>>>>
>>>> William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
>>>> both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca
>>>> 1140 here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
>>>> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
>>>> Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii
>>>> Willelmi ... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ...
>>>> ad hoc autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum
>>>> fratrem meum").
>>>>
>>>> Peter Stewart
>>>>
>>> Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I
>>> thought I knew  all these St Florent documents well.
>>
>> The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade
>> or so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs
>> in a charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of
>> Religious Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Amélie Rigollet
>> in *Mobilités du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe
>> siècle-1326)* (2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the
>> charter dated in that year, another donation at Annington, that was
>> confirmed by William II. Since Berta's parents were not married until
>> 1121, a concession by her younger son Philip is more likely to have
>> been made ca 1153 that ca 1140.
>>
>> Philip occurs in other records cited by Rigollet:
>>
>> Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87
>> (holding from the king at Stanford)
>>
>> 12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of
>> Naas made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
>> *Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London, 2007),
>> vol. 1, p. 164, no. 263, also here:
>> https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_012.html and
>> here: https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>>
> Agreed about the uncertain dating by Marchegay, but I thought the
> references you give below are to the brother of William II not his son.
> Is there any way to know this?

William II's brother Philip occurs as a witness along with Berta in
William's confirmation of their grandfather's donations dated after 1110
by Marchegay in *Chartes normandes de l'abbaye de Saint-Florent*, p. 689
no. 20b - however, this is again too early unless he meant long after.
Rigollet placed it ca 1130, also too early. Seifrid I was bishop of
Chichester at the time, placing it between 1125 and 1145. Robert was
prior of Sele, placing it within the range of his uncertainly datable
occurrences from 1126/39 to 1135/53. But Berta's parents, as mentioned
before, were married in 1121 so she could not have become William's wife
until ca 1135 at the earliest.

Sine the brother was active apparently as William II's heir presumptive
after his marriage to Berta but evidently before they had a son, i.e. by
around 1140-45 when this confirmation was probably given, this Philip's
own birth cannot have been far from 1130, making it unlikely that his
remarried widow would be obtaining seisin of her dower in his Irish
estate as late as September 1220. William II died in 1192/93 according
to Ralph Turner in ODNB - it seems to me far more plausible that his son
lived until ca 28 years after him leaving a marriageable widow than that
his brother did.

Peter Stewart

--
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On 21/04/2024 23:36, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 22-Apr-24 12:12 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
>> On 21/04/2024 01:49, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>> On 20-Apr-24 7:28 PM, Doug Thompson wrote:
>>>> On 20/04/2024 01:18, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>>>> On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
>>>>>> William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not
>>>>>> been noted before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice
>>>>>> Lees’ book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth
>>>>>> century. It is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of
>>>>>> Sele Priory concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is
>>>>>> dated 1181 in the charter itself. The witness list contains
>>>>>> Philip, the brother of William and also William’s son Philip.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether
>>>>>> the William in question is William(II) or William (III).
>>>>>> William(II) died just around this time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
>>>>>> William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the
>>>>>> neat answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a
>>>>>> brother for William (III). So, without knowing which William is
>>>>>> concerned in the charter, this is evidence for the existence of
>>>>>> this son!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html
>>>>>
>>>>> William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same
>>>>> name, both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of
>>>>> ca 1140 here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
>>>>> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
>>>>> Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii
>>>>> Willelmi ... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus
>>>>> ... ad hoc autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam,
>>>>> Philippum fratrem meum").
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Stewart
>>>>>
>>>> Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I
>>>> thought I knew  all these St Florent documents well.
>>>
>>> The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade
>>> or so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs
>>> in a charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of
>>> Religious Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Amélie
>>> Rigollet in *Mobilités du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe
>>> siècle-1326)* (2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the
>>> charter dated in that year, another donation at Annington, that was
>>> confirmed by William II. Since Berta's parents were not married until
>>> 1121, a concession by her younger son Philip is more likely to have
>>> been made ca 1153 that ca 1140.
>>>
>>> Philip occurs in other records cited by Rigollet:
>>>
>>> Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87
>>> (holding from the king at Stanford)
>>>
>>> 12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of
>>> Naas made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
>>> *Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London,
>>> 2007), vol. 1, p. 164, no. 263, also here:
>>> https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_012.html and
>>> here: https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.
>>>
>>> Peter Stewart
>>>
>>>
>> Agreed about the uncertain dating by Marchegay, but I thought the
>> references you give below are to the brother of William II not his
>> son. Is there any way to know this?
>
> William II's brother Philip occurs as a witness along with Berta in
> William's confirmation of their grandfather's donations dated after 1110
> by Marchegay in *Chartes normandes de l'abbaye de Saint-Florent*, p. 689
> no. 20b - however, this is again too early unless he meant long after.
> Rigollet placed it ca 1130, also too early. Seifrid I was bishop of
> Chichester at the time, placing it between 1125 and 1145. Robert was
> prior of Sele, placing it within the range of his uncertainly datable
> occurrences from 1126/39 to 1135/53. But Berta's parents, as mentioned
> before, were married in 1121 so she could not have become William's wife
> until ca 1135 at the earliest.
>
> Sine the brother was active apparently as William II's heir presumptive
> after his marriage to Berta but evidently before they had a son, i.e. by
> around 1140-45 when this confirmation was probably given, this Philip's
> own birth cannot have been far from 1130, making it unlikely that his
> remarried widow would be obtaining seisin of her dower in his Irish
> estate as late as September 1220. William II died in 1192/93 according
> to Ralph Turner in ODNB - it seems to me far more plausible that his son
> lived until ca 28 years after him leaving a marriageable widow than that
> his brother did.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
>
Thanks for that, Peter. It looks like I've got some corrections to make
in my files!

Doug