On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>
> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>
> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
> year.".
>
> Leon?

I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
set up 8~10 years ago.

As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.

On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3.  I must be
>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe.  The rail hinge is
>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on.  Before resting on the
>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail.  Even after it's sitting on
>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play.  How the hell can this thing be
>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>
>> Stamped steel hinges?  It's worse than just a hinge.  The "hinge" is
>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail.  Moving the
>> rail flexes these arms.  It's a terrible design.
>>
>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>> year.".
>>
>> Leon?
>
> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges.   It works well
> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
> that keeps the rail square and or stable.  BUT it is a RPIA to set all
> of that up every time I set up or take it down.  So I seldom use it at
> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail.  It used to
> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
> MFT.  The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
> set up 8~10 years ago.
>
> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time.   Yet it wobbles but I do
> not notice that.   The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
> are constant use items.   Great table for the Shaper Workstation.

And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and easy.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>
>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>
>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>> year.".
>>
>> Leon?
>
>I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>set up 8~10 years ago.

The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
set?

The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.

>As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.

Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
use the Festool mounting parts.

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
> On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
> >> Leon?
> >
> > I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
> > enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
> > that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
> > of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
> > all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
> > be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
> > MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
> > set up 8~10 years ago.
> >
> > As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
> > not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
> > are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
> And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
> Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and easy.

Seems to me you are saying the MFT/3 is a good work table. And you use its associated dogs, clamps, and holes in the table top to hold and clamp lots of things. Great. But what about its main purpose(?) of using the track saw and rails on top to cut things?

I looked on Google and the official MFT/3 perforated top is sold for $172. And Amazon has copies for less. Couldn't you easily make a base out of 2x4s and achieve your usage of the MFT/3? Or get fancy and make a folding base of sorts.

On 11/12/2022 1:36 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> Leon?
>>>
>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>
>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>> And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
>> Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and easy.
>
> Seems to me you are saying the MFT/3 is a good work table. And you use its associated dogs, clamps, and holes in the table top to hold and clamp lots of things. Great. But what about its main purpose(?) of using the track saw and rails on top to cut things?
>
> I looked on Google and the official MFT/3 perforated top is sold for $172. And Amazon has copies for less. Couldn't you easily make a base out of 2x4s and achieve your usage of the MFT/3? Or get fancy and make a folding base of sorts.
On 11/12/2022 1:36 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> Leon?
>>>
>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>
>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>> And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
>> Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and
easy.
>
> Seems to me you are saying the MFT/3 is a good work table. And you
use its associated dogs, clamps, and holes in the table top to hold and
clamp lots of things. Great. But what about its main purpose(?) of
using the track saw and rails on top to cut things?
The MFT/3 main purpose is to be a work table. Multi Function Table.
The track saw track accessory is a $100.00 option. Just the work table
can be bought for $675.00 vs $775.00 that includes the 42" track
accessory, mounting hardware and protractor. It is less expensive to
buy the MFT/3 with the track saw rail option than to buy the basic MFT/3
and seperately only the 42" track. The track accessory is not its main
purpose. The MFT/3 can also be had as a Conturo Table set for $845.00.

>
> I looked on Google and the official MFT/3 perforated top is sold for
$172. And Amazon has copies for less. Couldn't you easily make a base
out of 2x4s and achieve your usage of the MFT/3? Or get fancy and make
a folding base of sorts.
Prices depend on whether you are buying after market tops or genuine
Festool tops. I see the Festool top on Amazon for $172.

Yes you can build a base and mount that top to it.

But a comparable base would have foldable and adjustable legs, side
rails for using clamps to hold work vertically, and folds to about 8"
thick and stores on its edge/side.

No doubt there are countless options if you do not want the track saw or
conturo options for the MFT/3 and no one argues that Festool is not
expensive. Bora makes a foldable top for their Cenepede set up that is
$42 and about the same size as the MDT/3 table top.

I will restate that I have the stack saw set up for my MFT/3. I opted
for that addition to get the 42" track for less than buying the track
out right by itself. I cannot remember the last time I set the MFT/3
up to use with the track to cut stock. But I use the 42" rail by
itself all of the time. The track saw set up is not a quick set up.
You pretty much have to remove the track and, protractor, and mounting
brackets if you want to put the MFT/3 away with its legs folded.

The question is do you want something that is Festool comparable and
uses all of the Festool accessories or something fashioned like the
MFT/3 and kinda has similar functions.

On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>
>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>
>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>> year.".
>>>
>>> Leon?
>>
>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>
> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
> set?
>
> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>
>
>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>
> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
> use the Festool mounting parts.
On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>
>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>
>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>> year.".
>>>
>>> Leon?
>>
>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>
> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
> set?
I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
going to be fool proof in this type set up.
The indexing support indexes against a stop that is placed and fixed
inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You make that adjustment for that
piece. It is for resetting up the track to make 90 degree cuts if you
break the set up down after use. As for angles, I have never cut
angles on mine, the indexing pin on the support would be at an angle to
the slot in the track and I can see how there could be play. BUT even
Incra miter gauges and long extension fences have play. Keep in mind
that 1/4" play at the end of 42" may only equate to being 1/3 of a
degree. I know that 1/4" play seems pretty sloppy but you may not be
able to measure the degree result from one extreme to the next. If you
are looking for dead on accuracy consider just using the track aligned
with marks on the work, less the protractor, hinge, mounting hardware.
For the time and effort to break down the track saw set up I simply
don't use it in that capacity. But as I mentioned on another response
I do use the 42" track by it self quite often. And the track saw
option to the MFT/3 is less than buying the 42" rack alone.

If you need to do "a lot" of "angle" cutting of panels this may be a
good choice. I do not cut a lot of angles and my miter saw and or my
TS and or simply measuring and aligning the TS track to pencil marks is
good enough for me, and I can be pretty anal.

>
> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>
>
>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>
> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
> use the Festool mounting parts.
I use the ratcheting Festool clamps through the bench holes and located
at the back and side of the Workstation. The ratcheting handle is on
the top side of the bench and does not get in the way back there in that
location.

On 11/12/2022 9:19 AM, L

11/12/2022 9:19 AM, Leon wrote:

Ok, It has been so long since I used the track with the MFT/3 that I
forgot that the protractor is a separate piece. I was somehow thinking
that the protractor mounted to the track. The track angle is fixed,
the indexing rest and the hinge snug up against a fixed indexing stop,
both sides, tucked inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You do not remove
those stops. So that is repeatable when setting back up.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 23:36:23 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
>> >> Leon?
>> >
>> > I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>> > enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>> > that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>> > of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>> > all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>> > be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>> > MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>> > set up 8~10 years ago.
>> >
>> > As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>> > not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>> > are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>> And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
>> Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and easy.
>
>Seems to me you are saying the MFT/3 is a good work table. And you use its associated dogs, clamps, and holes in the table top to hold and clamp lots of things. Great. But what about its main purpose(?) of using the track saw and rails on top to cut things?
>
>I looked on Google and the official MFT/3 perforated top is sold for $172. And Amazon has copies for less. Couldn't you easily make a base out of 2x4s and achieve your usage of the MFT/3? Or get fancy and make a folding base of sorts.

If all you want is an MDF table with dog holes in it, buy a sheet of
MDF and a Woodpeckers hole boring jig. The jig and MDF will cost
about the same but you can make the table as large as you want. You
can make replacements for that at just the cost of another piece of
MDF.

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>
>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>
>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>> year.".
>>>>
>>>> Leon?
>>>
>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>
>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>> set?
>>
>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>
>>
>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>
>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> >>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
> >>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
> >>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
> >>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
> >>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
> >>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
> >>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
> >>>
> >>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
> >>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
> >>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
> >>>
> >>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
> >>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
> >>> year.".
> >>>
> >>> Leon?
> >>
> >> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
> >> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
> >> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
> >> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
> >> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
> >> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
> >> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
> >> set up 8~10 years ago.
> >
> > The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
> > tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
> > for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
> > without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
> > set?
>I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>going to be fool proof in this type set up.

If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.

>The indexing support indexes against a stop that is placed and fixed
>inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You make that adjustment for that
>piece. It is for resetting up the track to make 90 degree cuts if you
>break the set up down after use. As for angles, I have never cut
>angles on mine, the indexing pin on the support would be at an angle to
>the slot in the track and I can see how there could be play. BUT even
>Incra miter gauges and long extension fences have play. Keep in mind
>that 1/4" play at the end of 42" may only equate to being 1/3 of a
>degree.

The miter gauge and fence looks like a pretty expensive part to never
use. ;-0 Frankly, I've never used my track saw for angles either.

>I know that 1/4" play seems pretty sloppy but you may not be
>able to measure the degree result from one extreme to the next.

I get 1/8 of a degree - point taken (if I didn't blow the arithmetic
1/2-degree per inch). With the indexing pin, it's more like 1/16", so
completely irrelevant. Hard to believe that I didn't screw up the
arithmetic. 30 * 2pi inches in the circumference, divided by 360
equals 1/2 inch per degree. 1/4" = 1/8 degree. Seems a square is
superfluous. ;-)

>If you
>are looking for dead on accuracy consider just using the track aligned
>with marks on the work, less the protractor, hinge, mounting hardware.
>For the time and effort to break down the track saw set up I simply
>don't use it in that capacity. But as I mentioned on another response
>I do use the 42" track by it self quite often. And the track saw
>option to the MFT/3 is less than buying the 42" rack alone.

The option implies the table, though. The function is then $775.
>
>If you need to do "a lot" of "angle" cutting of panels this may be a
>good choice. I do not cut a lot of angles and my miter saw and or my
>TS and or simply measuring and aligning the TS track to pencil marks is
>good enough for me, and I can be pretty anal.

THe angle unit comes with the track for that $100.
>
>
> >
> > The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
> > still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
> >
> >
> >> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
> >> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
> >> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
> >
> > Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
> > workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
> > not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
> > stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
> > it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
> > use the Festool mounting parts.
>I use the ratcheting Festool clamps through the bench holes and located
>at the back and side of the Workstation. The ratcheting handle is on
>the top side of the bench and does not get in the way back there in that
>location.

On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
must be
>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
group)
>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>
>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>> year.".
>>>>>
>>>>> Leon?
>>>>
>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
used to
>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>
>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>> set?
>>>
>>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and
dogs
>>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>>
>>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
must be
>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
group)
>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>
>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>> year.".
>>>>>
>>>>> Leon?
>>>>
>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
used to
>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>
>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>> set?
>> I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>> holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>> going to be fool proof in this type set up.
>
> If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
> metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
> track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
> play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.
The cure is to NOT put pressure on the track when it is pivoted up and
off of the indexing pin. I assure you that even cast will flex.

>
>> The indexing support indexes against a stop that is placed and fixed
>> inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You make that adjustment for that
>> piece. It is for resetting up the track to make 90 degree cuts if you
>> break the set up down after use. As for angles, I have never cut
>> angles on mine, the indexing pin on the support would be at an angle to
>> the slot in the track and I can see how there could be play. BUT even
>> Incra miter gauges and long extension fences have play. Keep in mind
>> that 1/4" play at the end of 42" may only equate to being 1/3 of a
>> degree.
>
> The miter gauge and fence looks like a pretty expensive part to never
> use. ;-0 Frankly, I've never used my track saw for angles either.
But all of those parts and the 42" track are $20 less expensive than
buying the 42" track alone by itself. I have cut angles with my track
saw and quite accurately simply by marking the panel and aligning the
track. The MFT/3 with the track/angle option would be better for
repeated cuts and cuts narrow enough to fit.

>
>> I know that 1/4" play seems pretty sloppy but you may not be
>> able to measure the degree result from one extreme to the next.
>
> I get 1/8 of a degree - point taken (if I didn't blow the arithmetic
> 1/2-degree per inch). With the indexing pin, it's more like 1/16", so
> completely irrelevant. Hard to believe that I didn't screw up the
> arithmetic. 30 * 2pi inches in the circumference, divided by 360
> equals 1/2 inch per degree. 1/4" = 1/8 degree. Seems a square is
> superfluous. ;-)
I simply drew it out on Sketchup. A 42" horizontal line and up 1/4" at
one end of the line and back to the beginning of the horizontal line.
Then measured the angle between the 2 lines.

>
>> If you
>> are looking for dead on accuracy consider just using the track aligned
>> with marks on the work, less the protractor, hinge, mounting hardware.
>> For the time and effort to break down the track saw set up I simply
>> don't use it in that capacity. But as I mentioned on another response
>> I do use the 42" track by it self quite often. And the track saw
>> option to the MFT/3 is less than buying the 42" rack alone.
>
> The option implies the table, though. The function is then $775.
Yes, the table alone is $675, add the 42"track/miter gauge option for
$100 more, $775.

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:22:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>must be
>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>group)
>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>used to
>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>> set?
>>>>
>>>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>>>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and
>dogs
>>>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>>>
>>>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>>>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>>>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>>>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>>>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>>>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>must be
>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>group)
>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>used to
>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>> set?
>>> I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>>> holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>>> going to be fool proof in this type set up.
>>
>> If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
>> metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
>> track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
>> play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.
>The cure is to NOT put pressure on the track when it is pivoted up and
>off of the indexing pin. I assure you that even cast will flex.
>
It's not a matter of it flexing, rather there is no guarantee which
side of the line it'll come down on. It can be off ~1/16" from cut to
cut. That may not be much of an angle but it's not great for
cabinets, or whatever.
>>
>>> The indexing support indexes against a stop that is placed and fixed
>>> inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You make that adjustment for that
>>> piece. It is for resetting up the track to make 90 degree cuts if you
>>> break the set up down after use. As for angles, I have never cut
>>> angles on mine, the indexing pin on the support would be at an angle to
>>> the slot in the track and I can see how there could be play. BUT even
>>> Incra miter gauges and long extension fences have play. Keep in mind
>>> that 1/4" play at the end of 42" may only equate to being 1/3 of a
>>> degree.
>>
>> The miter gauge and fence looks like a pretty expensive part to never
>> use. ;-0 Frankly, I've never used my track saw for angles either.
>But all of those parts and the 42" track are $20 less expensive than
>buying the 42" track alone by itself. I have cut angles with my track
>saw and quite accurately simply by marking the panel and aligning the
>track. The MFT/3 with the track/angle option would be better for
>repeated cuts and cuts narrow enough to fit.
>
If you buy the table, of course. It would be silly not to. I've even
seen YouTubes where people bought two of the full sets instead of one
of the basic and one full. There was an explanation for it but I
didn't spent time watching. I may be wrong, but an 8' MFT doesn't
thrill me much. I already have a table that works for lengthwise cuts.
>
>
>
>>
>>> I know that 1/4" play seems pretty sloppy but you may not be
>>> able to measure the degree result from one extreme to the next.
>>
>> I get 1/8 of a degree - point taken (if I didn't blow the arithmetic
>> 1/2-degree per inch). With the indexing pin, it's more like 1/16", so
>> completely irrelevant. Hard to believe that I didn't screw up the
>> arithmetic. 30 * 2pi inches in the circumference, divided by 360
>> equals 1/2 inch per degree. 1/4" = 1/8 degree. Seems a square is
>> superfluous. ;-)
>I simply drew it out on Sketchup. A 42" horizontal line and up 1/4" at
>one end of the line and back to the beginning of the horizontal line.
>Then measured the angle between the 2 lines.

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:22:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>must be
>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>group)
>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>used to
>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>> set?
>>>>
>>>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>>>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and
>dogs
>>>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>>>
>>>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>>>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>>>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>>>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>>>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>>>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>must be
>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>group)
>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>used to
>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>> set?
>>> I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>>> holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>>> going to be fool proof in this type set up.
>>
>> If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
>> metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
>> track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
>> play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.
>The cure is to NOT put pressure on the track when it is pivoted up and
>off of the indexing pin. I assure you that even cast will flex.
>
I did some playing tonight, thinking about this some more. Miter
gauges have some slop in them but, at least the one I was playing with
is steel (Incra 1000HD). OTOH, my TS fence doesn't flex at all. I
would have thought the track would be similar but there isn't pressure
on it that there is a TS fence.

The other question I answered for myself was the position of the track
indexing support. I just realized that there is no reason to move
this, or the track. In fact, I remember the Festool rep saying that
many people route a slot and embed a strip of HDPE. When it gets too
cut up, just replace the strip. It's obvious that the rail would have
to be fixed for this to work.

On 11/15/2022 8:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:22:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>> On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>> must be
>>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>> group)
>>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>> used to
>>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>>> set?
>>>>>
>>>>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>>>>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>>>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and
>> dogs
>>>>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>>>>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>>>>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>>>>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>>>>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>>>>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>> must be
>>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>> group)
>>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>> used to
>>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>>> set?
>>>> I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>>>> holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>>>> going to be fool proof in this type set up.
>>>
>>> If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
>>> metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
>>> track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
>>> play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.
>> The cure is to NOT put pressure on the track when it is pivoted up and
>> off of the indexing pin. I assure you that even cast will flex.
>>
> I did some playing tonight, thinking about this some more. Miter
> gauges have some slop in them but, at least the one I was playing with
> is steel (Incra 1000HD). OTOH, my TS fence doesn't flex at all. I
> would have thought the track would be similar but there isn't pressure
> on it that there is a TS fence.
>
> The other question I answered for myself was the position of the track
> indexing support. I just realized that there is no reason to move
> this, or the track. In fact, I remember the Festool rep saying that
> many people route a slot and embed a strip of HDPE. When it gets too
> cut up, just replace the strip. It's obvious that the rail would have
> to be fixed for this to work.
>
LOL. We do tend to over think things, don't we. ;~)
If the fence was changing angles that would be one thing but it is
simply adjusting up and down for the thickness of the stock and pivoting
up and down to ease insertion and removal of the stock to be cut. And
properly adjusted for the thickness of the stock. The track rubber
bottom strips are plenty to keep it from flexing or shifting when
cutting, but you do have the added hinge side and indexing side to help
realign after lifting and lowering the track.

I will warn you again however.....
Unless I am working on a project my MFT/3 is folded up and sitting on
its side. You have to remove the track and replace it. That is a bit
if a PIA. BUT if you leave the MFT/3 up all of the time, this is not
an issue.
I have a Paulk style work bench with a foot print. set up, of about
40"x96". It gets put away if I am not working on a job. And on small
jobs I may not pull it our at all, although set up is about 2~3 minutes.
That is where the MFT/3 comes in handy. It is smaller and set up,
bring it out, unfold the legs, and put it on its feet takes about a
minute. Plus it is a good size for the Shaper Workstation, mortising
with the Domino, and sanding. I also use it along with dogs and clamps
to hold drawers in place while I attach the drawer side of the slides.
IMHO the MFT/3 is worth the price since it gets used with every job,
even with out using the track saw on it.