On 12/30/2022 11:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> This question relates specifically to Luxury Vinyl Plank (since that is
> what I am installing) but I think that it applies to hardwood floors also.
>
> I'm installing LVP in my kitchen and office. It's essentially a "single floor"
> since the office is connected to the kitchen via a 48" wide opening.
>
> The standard practice for LVP is to leave a 1/4" expansion gap around
> the perimeter. Fine. No problem. Kitchen's done and I'll start the office
> as soon as I move everything back into the kitchen - and therein lies
> the rub.
>
> I'm about to move the range, refrigerator, two 32" x 84" cabinet/bookcase
> units and a 40 gallon aquarium back into the kitchen. In the office, I have
> a large antique, hardwood desk and matching hutch. The recliner and
> loveseat are lightweights compared to those 2 pieces. All of these pieces,
> in both rooms, are up against different walls.
>
> I find it impossible that the floor is actually going to move those pieces
> and use the 1/4" expansion gaps. I think that the weight is going to hold
> the planks under the pieces down solid and any expansion will be forced
> towards the middle of the room(s). I can't be alone in this situation.
>
> Am I wrong?

No you are not alone. But consider that everyone that has flooring
installed has furniture too.

The weight of each piece of furniture is spread out and will be much
easier to move. And the movement is going to be very little over a
long period of time, not all at once.

FWIW I move heavy furniture with a piece of remnant carpet sitting on
top. The heavy furniture moves easily because the load is spread out
over a larger area.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 12/30/2022 11:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> This question relates specifically to Luxury Vinyl Plank (since that is
>> what I am installing) but I think that it applies to hardwood floors also.
>>
>> I'm installing LVP in my kitchen and office. It's essentially a "single floor"
>> since the office is connected to the kitchen via a 48" wide opening.
>>
>> The standard practice for LVP is to leave a 1/4" expansion gap around
>> the perimeter. Fine. No problem. Kitchen's done and I'll start the office
>> as soon as I move everything back into the kitchen - and therein lies
>> the rub.
>>
>> I'm about to move the range, refrigerator, two 32" x 84" cabinet/bookcase
>> units and a 40 gallon aquarium back into the kitchen. In the office, I have
>> a large antique, hardwood desk and matching hutch. The recliner and
>> loveseat are lightweights compared to those 2 pieces. All of these pieces,
>> in both rooms, are up against different walls.
>>
>> I find it impossible that the floor is actually going to move those pieces
>> and use the 1/4" expansion gaps. I think that the weight is going to hold
>> the planks under the pieces down solid and any expansion will be forced
>> towards the middle of the room(s). I can't be alone in this situation.
>>
>> Am I wrong?
>
>
>No you are not alone. But consider that everyone that has flooring
>installed has furniture too.
>
>The weight of each piece of furniture is spread out and will be much
>easier to move. And the movement is going to be very little over a
>long period of time, not all at once.

And, the movement is effectively powered by hydraulic action in wood;
and we know just how powerful hydraulics can be. The furniture will
move _with_ the wood floor, rather than being moved _by_ the wood floor.

Vinyl flooring doesn't have expansion characteristics comparable to
wood with respect to changes in humdity, yet it will change in dimension
with temperature changes. Freestanding furniture will move with
the floor. Installed cabinets, prevented from movement by a wall or
other obstruction, can cause buckling of the flooring; thus a gap
around any immovable objects (walls, attached cabinets, etc) is required.

On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 17:07:07 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>On 12/30/2022 11:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> This question relates specifically to Luxury Vinyl Plank (since that is
>>> what I am installing) but I think that it applies to hardwood floors also.
>>>
>>> I'm installing LVP in my kitchen and office. It's essentially a "single floor"
>>> since the office is connected to the kitchen via a 48" wide opening.
>>>
>>> The standard practice for LVP is to leave a 1/4" expansion gap around
>>> the perimeter. Fine. No problem. Kitchen's done and I'll start the office
>>> as soon as I move everything back into the kitchen - and therein lies
>>> the rub.
>>>
>>> I'm about to move the range, refrigerator, two 32" x 84" cabinet/bookcase
>>> units and a 40 gallon aquarium back into the kitchen. In the office, I have
>>> a large antique, hardwood desk and matching hutch. The recliner and
>>> loveseat are lightweights compared to those 2 pieces. All of these pieces,
>>> in both rooms, are up against different walls.
>>>
>>> I find it impossible that the floor is actually going to move those pieces
>>> and use the 1/4" expansion gaps. I think that the weight is going to hold
>>> the planks under the pieces down solid and any expansion will be forced
>>> towards the middle of the room(s). I can't be alone in this situation.
>>>
>>> Am I wrong?
>>
>>
>>No you are not alone. But consider that everyone that has flooring
>>installed has furniture too.
>>
>>The weight of each piece of furniture is spread out and will be much
>>easier to move. And the movement is going to be very little over a
>>long period of time, not all at once.
>
>And, the movement is effectively powered by hydraulic action in wood;
>and we know just how powerful hydraulics can be. The furniture will
>move _with_ the wood floor, rather than being moved _by_ the wood floor.
>
>Vinyl flooring doesn't have expansion characteristics comparable to
>wood with respect to changes in humdity, yet it will change in dimension
>with temperature changes. Freestanding furniture will move with
>the floor. Installed cabinets, prevented from movement by a wall or
>other obstruction, can cause buckling of the flooring; thus a gap
>around any immovable objects (walls, attached cabinets, etc) is required.
>
How much does temperature change? 10F? 15F, max? Does it really
change dimension that much.

What about something like a refrigerator (as was mentioned above)?
They're pretty heavy and the weight isn't distributed, rather at the
four corners.

On 1/3/2023 2:48 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 17:07:07 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> On 12/30/2022 11:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> This question relates specifically to Luxury Vinyl Plank (since that is
>>>> what I am installing) but I think that it applies to hardwood floors also.
>>>>
>>>> I'm installing LVP in my kitchen and office. It's essentially a "single floor"
>>>> since the office is connected to the kitchen via a 48" wide opening.
>>>>
>>>> The standard practice for LVP is to leave a 1/4" expansion gap around
>>>> the perimeter. Fine. No problem. Kitchen's done and I'll start the office
>>>> as soon as I move everything back into the kitchen - and therein lies
>>>> the rub.
>>>>
>>>> I'm about to move the range, refrigerator, two 32" x 84" cabinet/bookcase
>>>> units and a 40 gallon aquarium back into the kitchen. In the office, I have
>>>> a large antique, hardwood desk and matching hutch. The recliner and
>>>> loveseat are lightweights compared to those 2 pieces. All of these pieces,
>>>> in both rooms, are up against different walls.
>>>>
>>>> I find it impossible that the floor is actually going to move those pieces
>>>> and use the 1/4" expansion gaps. I think that the weight is going to hold
>>>> the planks under the pieces down solid and any expansion will be forced
>>>> towards the middle of the room(s). I can't be alone in this situation.
>>>>
>>>> Am I wrong?
>>>
>>>
>>> No you are not alone. But consider that everyone that has flooring
>>> installed has furniture too.
>>>
>>> The weight of each piece of furniture is spread out and will be much
>>> easier to move. And the movement is going to be very little over a
>>> long period of time, not all at once.
>>
>> And, the movement is effectively powered by hydraulic action in wood;
>> and we know just how powerful hydraulics can be. The furniture will
>> move _with_ the wood floor, rather than being moved _by_ the wood floor.
>>
>> Vinyl flooring doesn't have expansion characteristics comparable to
>> wood with respect to changes in humdity, yet it will change in dimension
>> with temperature changes. Freestanding furniture will move with
>> the floor. Installed cabinets, prevented from movement by a wall or
>> other obstruction, can cause buckling of the flooring; thus a gap
>> around any immovable objects (walls, attached cabinets, etc) is required.
>>
> How much does temperature change? 10F? 15F, max? Does it really
> change dimension that much.
>
> What about something like a refrigerator (as was mentioned above)?
> They're pretty heavy and the weight isn't distributed, rather at the
> four corners.

Four corners quarters the wright.

On Tue, 3 Jan 2023 17:30:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>On 1/3/2023 2:48 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 17:07:07 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>> On 12/30/2022 11:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> This question relates specifically to Luxury Vinyl Plank (since that is
>>>>> what I am installing) but I think that it applies to hardwood floors also.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm installing LVP in my kitchen and office. It's essentially a "single floor"
>>>>> since the office is connected to the kitchen via a 48" wide opening.
>>>>>
>>>>> The standard practice for LVP is to leave a 1/4" expansion gap around
>>>>> the perimeter. Fine. No problem. Kitchen's done and I'll start the office
>>>>> as soon as I move everything back into the kitchen - and therein lies
>>>>> the rub.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm about to move the range, refrigerator, two 32" x 84" cabinet/bookcase
>>>>> units and a 40 gallon aquarium back into the kitchen. In the office, I have
>>>>> a large antique, hardwood desk and matching hutch. The recliner and
>>>>> loveseat are lightweights compared to those 2 pieces. All of these pieces,
>>>>> in both rooms, are up against different walls.
>>>>>
>>>>> I find it impossible that the floor is actually going to move those pieces
>>>>> and use the 1/4" expansion gaps. I think that the weight is going to hold
>>>>> the planks under the pieces down solid and any expansion will be forced
>>>>> towards the middle of the room(s). I can't be alone in this situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Am I wrong?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No you are not alone. But consider that everyone that has flooring
>>>> installed has furniture too.
>>>>
>>>> The weight of each piece of furniture is spread out and will be much
>>>> easier to move. And the movement is going to be very little over a
>>>> long period of time, not all at once.
>>>
>>> And, the movement is effectively powered by hydraulic action in wood;
>>> and we know just how powerful hydraulics can be. The furniture will
>>> move _with_ the wood floor, rather than being moved _by_ the wood floor.
>>>
>>> Vinyl flooring doesn't have expansion characteristics comparable to
>>> wood with respect to changes in humdity, yet it will change in dimension
>>> with temperature changes. Freestanding furniture will move with
>>> the floor. Installed cabinets, prevented from movement by a wall or
>>> other obstruction, can cause buckling of the flooring; thus a gap
>>> around any immovable objects (walls, attached cabinets, etc) is required.
>>>
>> How much does temperature change? 10F? 15F, max? Does it really
>> change dimension that much.
>>
>> What about something like a refrigerator (as was mentioned above)?
>> They're pretty heavy and the weight isn't distributed, rather at the
>> four corners.
>
>
>Four corners quarters the wright.

??

My point was that the weight is on four small footprints, rather than
one flat plate that could move around. Washing machines have the same
problem and I've royally screwed up flooring pulling ours out. I'm
going to do tile when we figure out what we're doing for the rest of
the house.

krw@notreal.com writes:
>On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 17:07:07 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>On 12/30/2022 11:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> This question relates specifically to Luxury Vinyl Plank (since that is
>>>> what I am installing) but I think that it applies to hardwood floors also.
>>>>
>>>> I'm installing LVP in my kitchen and office. It's essentially a "single floor"
>>>> since the office is connected to the kitchen via a 48" wide opening.
>>>>
>>>> The standard practice for LVP is to leave a 1/4" expansion gap around
>>>> the perimeter. Fine. No problem. Kitchen's done and I'll start the office
>>>> as soon as I move everything back into the kitchen - and therein lies
>>>> the rub.
>>>>
>>>> I'm about to move the range, refrigerator, two 32" x 84" cabinet/bookcase
>>>> units and a 40 gallon aquarium back into the kitchen. In the office, I have
>>>> a large antique, hardwood desk and matching hutch. The recliner and
>>>> loveseat are lightweights compared to those 2 pieces. All of these pieces,
>>>> in both rooms, are up against different walls.
>>>>
>>>> I find it impossible that the floor is actually going to move those pieces
>>>> and use the 1/4" expansion gaps. I think that the weight is going to hold
>>>> the planks under the pieces down solid and any expansion will be forced
>>>> towards the middle of the room(s). I can't be alone in this situation.
>>>>
>>>> Am I wrong?
>>>
>>>
>>>No you are not alone. But consider that everyone that has flooring
>>>installed has furniture too.
>>>
>>>The weight of each piece of furniture is spread out and will be much
>>>easier to move. And the movement is going to be very little over a
>>>long period of time, not all at once.
>>
>>And, the movement is effectively powered by hydraulic action in wood;
>>and we know just how powerful hydraulics can be. The furniture will
>>move _with_ the wood floor, rather than being moved _by_ the wood floor.
>>
>>Vinyl flooring doesn't have expansion characteristics comparable to
>>wood with respect to changes in humdity, yet it will change in dimension
>>with temperature changes. Freestanding furniture will move with
>>the floor. Installed cabinets, prevented from movement by a wall or
>>other obstruction, can cause buckling of the flooring; thus a gap
>>around any immovable objects (walls, attached cabinets, etc) is required.
>>
>How much does temperature change? 10F? 15F, max? Does it really
>change dimension that much.

That depends. In the winters, there is a 10 degree change
in temperature between night (58) and day (68) in my house. The
guest house is unheated when empty, so the swings there
follow the outside temperature (which very seldom drops below
32F and then only for a couple of hours), but the rate of change
is slower.

In summers, it can be 62 in the morning and 82 in the late afternoon
on a hot day. I have no air conditioning.

>
>What about something like a refrigerator (as was mentioned above)?
>They're pretty heavy and the weight isn't distributed, rather at the
>four corners.

It is not a point load, the load is distributed over the four
corners; to that extent, I suspect that the load would move with
a wood floor, I'm not sure about a VLP floor.

On 1/3/2023 7:58 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Jan 2023 17:30:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> On 1/3/2023 2:48 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 17:07:07 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>> On 12/30/2022 11:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>> This question relates specifically to Luxury Vinyl Plank (since that is
>>>>>> what I am installing) but I think that it applies to hardwood floors also.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm installing LVP in my kitchen and office. It's essentially a "single floor"
>>>>>> since the office is connected to the kitchen via a 48" wide opening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The standard practice for LVP is to leave a 1/4" expansion gap around
>>>>>> the perimeter. Fine. No problem. Kitchen's done and I'll start the office
>>>>>> as soon as I move everything back into the kitchen - and therein lies
>>>>>> the rub.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm about to move the range, refrigerator, two 32" x 84" cabinet/bookcase
>>>>>> units and a 40 gallon aquarium back into the kitchen. In the office, I have
>>>>>> a large antique, hardwood desk and matching hutch. The recliner and
>>>>>> loveseat are lightweights compared to those 2 pieces. All of these pieces,
>>>>>> in both rooms, are up against different walls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find it impossible that the floor is actually going to move those pieces
>>>>>> and use the 1/4" expansion gaps. I think that the weight is going to hold
>>>>>> the planks under the pieces down solid and any expansion will be forced
>>>>>> towards the middle of the room(s). I can't be alone in this situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No you are not alone. But consider that everyone that has flooring
>>>>> installed has furniture too.
>>>>>
>>>>> The weight of each piece of furniture is spread out and will be much
>>>>> easier to move. And the movement is going to be very little over a
>>>>> long period of time, not all at once.
>>>>
>>>> And, the movement is effectively powered by hydraulic action in wood;
>>>> and we know just how powerful hydraulics can be. The furniture will
>>>> move _with_ the wood floor, rather than being moved _by_ the wood floor.
>>>>
>>>> Vinyl flooring doesn't have expansion characteristics comparable to
>>>> wood with respect to changes in humdity, yet it will change in dimension
>>>> with temperature changes. Freestanding furniture will move with
>>>> the floor. Installed cabinets, prevented from movement by a wall or
>>>> other obstruction, can cause buckling of the flooring; thus a gap
>>>> around any immovable objects (walls, attached cabinets, etc) is required.
>>>>
>>> How much does temperature change? 10F? 15F, max? Does it really
>>> change dimension that much.
>>>
>>> What about something like a refrigerator (as was mentioned above)?
>>> They're pretty heavy and the weight isn't distributed, rather at the
>>> four corners.
>>
>>
>> Four corners quarters the wright.
>
> ??
>
> My point was that the weight is on four small footprints, rather than
> one flat plate that could move around. Washing machines have the same
> problem and I've royally screwed up flooring pulling ours out. I'm
> going to do tile when we figure out what we're doing for the rest of
> the house.

I meant to say 1/4 the weight. I estimate 75 to 100 lbs for a fridge.