Hello
Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?
Antoni

In article <a506163e-269b-4b98-9c8b-0b2f9d1ca0c6n@googlegroups.com>,
Antoni Gual Via <antonigualvia@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hello
>Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
>I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
>Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?

I consider WIN32FORTH dead anyway because before long you can no longer run
32 bits programs in MS-Windows. They have done a great job in sorting out
the zillions of symbolic constants in MS-Windows.

wina wina64 can call any dll function. Contrary to win32 graphics is not done
through a resource stuff.
What remains is to sort out the function calls to open a graphics window
and use it.
Documentation for Windows is hard to come by and not precise, because
everybody is forced to work with resource managers.

An example:

/ ----------------------------
\ A vd Horst, vrij naar FASM
\ Beer - example of tiny (one section) Win32 program

HEX
20 CONSTANT MB_ICONQUESTION
4 CONSTANT MB_YESNO
6 CONSTANT IDYES

WANT K32
"USER32.DLL" DLL-IMPORT user32
'user32 "MessageBoxA" PROC-IMPORT MessageBoxA
"WINMM.DLL" DLL-IMPORT winmm
'winmm "mciSendStringA" PROC-IMPORT mciSendStringA

"open cdaudio" Z CONSTANT _cmd_open
"set cdaudio door open" Z CONSTANT _cmd_eject
"close cdaudio" Z CONSTANT _cmd_close

"Do you need additional place to put the beer?" Z CONSTANT _message
"Desktop configuration" Z CONSTANT _caption

: handle-error DUP IF ." HET IS HELEMAAL FOUT " . CR ELSE DROP THEN ;
: handle-error DUP ?ERROR ;

: MAKE-PLACE-FOR-BEER
0 0 0 _cmd_open mciSendStringA .S CALL .S handle-error .S
0 0 0 _cmd_eject mciSendStringA CALL .S handle-error .S
0 0 0 _cmd_close mciSendStringA CALL .S handle-error .S
; : beer \ HEX
MB_ICONQUESTION MB_YESNO OR
_caption
_message
0
MessageBoxA .S CALL
IDYES = IF
MAKE-PLACE-FOR-BEER
THEN
;

: beer \ HEX
CALL[
MB_ICONQUESTION MB_YESNO OR PAR4
_caption PAR3
_message PAR2
0 PAR1
MessageBoxA .S CALL]
IDYES = IF
MAKE-PLACE-FOR-BEER
THEN
; / ----------------------------

This is a bit more complicated than strictly necessary because
wina -c beer.frt
generates a beer.exe that can be run on a system that has no
wina running (winmm.dll and system32.dll must be available of course.)
(During startup constant are looked up and patched.)

Note that wina has a 32 bit and 64 bit version.
PAR4 .. fills in the 4th parameter, and is portable across versions.

Don't be fooled by SYSTEM32.DLL. This is a 64 but library but
for "compatibility" it has not been renamed.

You can see that simple CALL can be used too. Positioned
CALL[ are more convenient because the params are not need in order.
For 64 bits CALL[ are advisable.

Note:
"USER32.DLL" is a file. "MessageBox" is a name of a procedure in that f
file, converted to an executable address.

"open cdaudio" Z CONSTANT _cmd_open
"open cdaudio" is part of the DLL specification of the MM (multi-media)
library. It is passed to the cd player of Windows and interpreted.

>Antoni

Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat spinning. - the Wise from Antrim -

You might want to check out eForth for Windows. It is quite nice.
https://eforth.appspot.com/windows.html

On 10/6/23 4:02, Antoni Gual Via wrote:
> Hello
> Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
> I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
> Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?
> Antoni

Op vrijdag 6 oktober 2023 om 14:20:13 UTC+2 schreef none albert:
> In article <a...glegroups.com>,
> Antoni Gual Via <antoni...il.com> wrote:
> >Hello
> >Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
> >I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
> >Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?
> I consider WIN32FORTH dead anyway because before long you can no longer run
> 32 bits programs in MS-Windows. They have done a great job in sorting out
> the zillions of symbolic constants in MS-Windows.
>
> wina wina64 can call any dll function. Contrary to win32 graphics is not done
> through a resource stuff.
> What remains is to sort out the function calls to open a graphics window
> and use it.
> Documentation for Windows is hard to come by and not precise, because
> everybody is forced to work with resource managers.
>
> An example:
>
> / ----------------------------
> \ A vd Horst, vrij naar FASM
> \ Beer - example of tiny (one section) Win32 program
>
> HEX
> 20 CONSTANT MB_ICONQUESTION
> 4 CONSTANT MB_YESNO
> 6 CONSTANT IDYES
>
>
> WANT K32
> "USER32.DLL" DLL-IMPORT user32
> 'user32 "MessageBoxA" PROC-IMPORT MessageBoxA
> "WINMM.DLL" DLL-IMPORT winmm
> 'winmm "mciSendStringA" PROC-IMPORT mciSendStringA
>
> "open cdaudio" Z CONSTANT _cmd_open
> "set cdaudio door open" Z CONSTANT _cmd_eject
> "close cdaudio" Z CONSTANT _cmd_close
>
>
> "Do you need additional place to put the beer?" Z CONSTANT _message
> "Desktop configuration" Z CONSTANT _caption
>
> : handle-error DUP IF ." HET IS HELEMAAL FOUT " . CR ELSE DROP THEN ;
> : handle-error DUP ?ERROR ;
>
> : MAKE-PLACE-FOR-BEER
> 0 0 0 _cmd_open mciSendStringA .S CALL .S handle-error .S
> 0 0 0 _cmd_eject mciSendStringA CALL .S handle-error .S
> 0 0 0 _cmd_close mciSendStringA CALL .S handle-error .S
> ;
> : beer \ HEX
> MB_ICONQUESTION MB_YESNO OR
> _caption
> _message
> 0
> MessageBoxA .S CALL
> IDYES = IF
> MAKE-PLACE-FOR-BEER
> THEN
> ;
>
> : beer \ HEX
> CALL[
> MB_ICONQUESTION MB_YESNO OR PAR4
> _caption PAR3
> _message PAR2
> 0 PAR1
> MessageBoxA .S CALL]
> IDYES = IF
> MAKE-PLACE-FOR-BEER
> THEN
> ;
> / ----------------------------
>
> This is a bit more complicated than strictly necessary because
> wina -c beer.frt
> generates a beer.exe that can be run on a system that has no
> wina running (winmm.dll and system32.dll must be available of course.)
> (During startup constant are looked up and patched.)
>
> Note that wina has a 32 bit and 64 bit version.
> PAR4 .. fills in the 4th parameter, and is portable across versions.
>
> Don't be fooled by SYSTEM32.DLL. This is a 64 but library but
> for "compatibility" it has not been renamed.
>
> You can see that simple CALL can be used too. Positioned
> CALL[ are more convenient because the params are not need in order.
> For 64 bits CALL[ are advisable.
>
> Note:
> "USER32.DLL" is a file. "MessageBox" is a name of a procedure in that f
> file, converted to an executable address.
>
> "open cdaudio" Z CONSTANT _cmd_open
> "open cdaudio" is part of the DLL specification of the MM (multi-media)
> library. It is passed to the cd player of Windows and interpreted.
>
> >Antoni
>
> Groetjes Albert
> --
> Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
> You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
> hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
> the air. First gain is a cat spinning. - the Wise from Antrim -

I still run Win32Forth on my w11 pc.
From: https://www.intowindows.com/does-windows-11-support-32-bit-applications
and other sites:
Windows 11, although available in 64-bit version only, supports 32-bit or x86 applications.
In fact, Windows 11 supports both 32-bit and 64-bit programs.
Jos

Antoni Gual Via schrieb am Freitag, 6. Oktober 2023 um 13:02:34 UTC+2:
> Hello
> Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
> I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
> Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?

Not for scientific plotting, but still:
https://mathscitech.org/articles/turtle-logo-forth

On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 1:02:34 PM UTC+2, Antoni Gual Via wrote:
> Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and
> plot pixels to it?

It is possible to run 16-bit applications on Windows 11 (numerous
references from Google/Youtube). Ergo, any old DOS Forth should
do. (Assuming it's ok that "graphics window" == application window).

-marcel

In article <17a16588-f2ab-462a-8eed-a1e8defbf72fn@googlegroups.com>,
Marcel Hendrix <mhx@iae.nl> wrote:
>On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 1:02:34 PM UTC+2, Antoni Gual Via wrote:
>> Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and
>> plot pixels to it?
>
>It is possible to run 16-bit applications on Windows 11 (numerous
>references from Google/Youtube). Ergo, any old DOS Forth should
>do. (Assuming it's ok that "graphics window" == application window).

Really? Can you run third party 64 bit graphics DLL libraries from there?
If you have a 4Gbyte GPU you want run Nvidia's (proprietary) graphic
tools, at least I do.

>
>-marcel

Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat spinning. - the Wise from Antrim -

@minforth I checked the logo forth but the download link does'nt seem to work
@marcel Yes, I sometimes run my old qbasic programs in a DosBox in Win10, but all programs run slower than in a 20 years old PC. I guess the switch to 16bits in each cycle most of the time...
Antoni

On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 1:49:13 PM UTC+2, Antoni Gual Via wrote:
> @marcel Yes, I sometimes run my old qbasic programs in a DosBox in Win10,
> but all programs run slower than in a 20 years old PC.

So it should be fast, run on current Windows, and be able to use graphics?
Why not download Vfx or SwiftForth then?

-marcel

Antoni Gual Via schrieb am Samstag, 7. Oktober 2023 um 13:49:13 UTC+2:
> @minforth I checked the logo forth but the download link does'nt seem to work

It works here
http://www.mathscitech.org/code/forth-turtle-logo/turtle-logo-plus.zip

El viernes, 6 de octubre de 2023 a las 8:02:34 UTC-3, Antoni Gual Via escribió:
> Hello
> Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
> I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
> Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?
> Antoni

yes, 32 bits
https://github.com/phreda4/r4
newer 64 bits, with sdl lib
https://github.com/phreda4/r3

On 7/10/2023 6:41 pm, minforth wrote:
> Antoni Gual Via schrieb am Freitag, 6. Oktober 2023 um 13:02:34 UTC+2:
>> Hello
>> Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
>> I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
>> Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?
>
> Not for scientific plotting, but still:
> https://mathscitech.org/articles/turtle-logo-forth

For plotting there's Krishna Myneni's XYPLOT:

https://github.com/mynenik/XYPLOT-Win32

Hard to believe this app isn't better known.

Op vrijdag 6 oktober 2023 om 13:02:34 UTC+2 schreef Antoni Gual Via:
> Hello
> Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
> I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
> Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?
> Antoni

Under Win32Forth Version 6.15.04 from https://sourceforge.net/projects/win32forth/files/

You can use:
- Turtle like plots
- Plot to a dibsection
- Use OpenGl

For the extra extensions see:
https://github.com/Jos-Ven/Win32Forth-extensions
Jos

On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:19:08 AM UTC-7, Jerry Petrey wrote:
> You might want to check out eForth for Windows. It is quite nice.
> https://eforth.appspot.com/windows.html
> On 10/6/23 4:02, Antoni Gual Via wrote:
> > Hello
> > Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
> > I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
> > Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?
> > Antoni

uEforth v7.0.6.19 - rev 2f2c3cb9e1f6c128d428
Forth dictionary: 10187368 free + 101756 used = 10289124 total (99% free)
3 x Forth stacks: 65536 bytes each
ok
--> : ud. <# #S #> type ;
ok
--> -1 -1 ud.
18446744073709551615 ok
-1 -->

I was expecting 38 digits. Is the change to numeric output words common for 64-bit Forths? I was expecting #S and #> to handle doubles. This kind of breaks ANS code.

On Sunday, 8 October 2023 at 22:59:32 UTC+1, Brad Eckert wrote:
> On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:19:08 AM UTC-7, Jerry Petrey wrote:
> > You might want to check out eForth for Windows. It is quite nice.
> > https://eforth.appspot.com/windows.html
> > On 10/6/23 4:02, Antoni Gual Via wrote:
> > > Hello
> > > Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
> > > I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
> > > Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?
> > > Antoni
> uEforth v7.0.6.19 - rev 2f2c3cb9e1f6c128d428
> Forth dictionary: 10187368 free + 101756 used = 10289124 total (99% free)
> 3 x Forth stacks: 65536 bytes each
> ok
> --> : ud. <# #S #> type ;
> ok
> --> -1 -1 ud.
> 18446744073709551615 ok
> -1 -->
>
> I was expecting 38 digits. Is the change to numeric output words common for 64-bit Forths? I was expecting #S and #> to handle doubles. This kind of breaks ANS code.

I cant see anything wrong so whats the size of a cell in bytes ?

Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> writes:
>uEforth v7.0.6.19 - rev 2f2c3cb9e1f6c128d428
>Forth dictionary: 10187368 free + 101756 used =3D 10289124 total (99% free)
>3 x Forth stacks: 65536 bytes each
> ok
>--> : ud. <# #S #> type ;
> ok
>--> -1 -1 ud.
>18446744073709551615 ok
>-1 -->
>
>I was expecting 38 digits. Is the change to numeric output words common for=
> 64-bit Forths?

Running the following on various Forth systems:

1 cells . -1 -1 <# #s #> type

I see the following outputs:

8 340282366920938463463374607431768211455 gforth 64-bit
8 340282366920938463463374607431768211455 iForth
8 340282366920938463463374607431768211455 SwiftForth x64-Linux
8 340282366920938463463374607431768211455 VFX Forth 64

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

On 9/10/2023 10:53 am, NN wrote:
> On Sunday, 8 October 2023 at 22:59:32 UTC+1, Brad Eckert wrote:
>> On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:19:08 AM UTC-7, Jerry Petrey wrote:
>>> You might want to check out eForth for Windows. It is quite nice.
>>> https://eforth.appspot.com/windows.html
>>> On 10/6/23 4:02, Antoni Gual Via wrote:
>>>> Hello
>>>> Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics programming.
>>>> I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an easy setup.
>>>> Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows killed them all?
>>>> Antoni
>> uEforth v7.0.6.19 - rev 2f2c3cb9e1f6c128d428
>> Forth dictionary: 10187368 free + 101756 used = 10289124 total (99% free)
>> 3 x Forth stacks: 65536 bytes each
>> ok
>> --> : ud. <# #S #> type ;
>> ok
>> --> -1 -1 ud.
>> 18446744073709551615 ok
>> -1 -->
>>
>> I was expecting 38 digits. Is the change to numeric output words common for 64-bit Forths? I was expecting #S and #> to handle doubles. This kind of breaks ANS code.
>
> I cant see anything wrong so whats the size of a cell in bytes ?

--> 1 cells .
8 ok

ueForth # works with singles. Hence ud. above was actually u.

In article <ca73fa95-c696-41c8-9ce0-f0f9557692c7n@googlegroups.com>,
Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:19:08 AM UTC-7, Jerry Petrey wrote:
>> You might want to check out eForth for Windows. It is quite nice.
>> https://eforth.appspot.com/windows.html
>> On 10/6/23 4:02, Antoni Gual Via wrote:
>> > Hello
>> > Is there a Forth running in Windows able to open a graphics window
>and plot pixels to it? My idea is just to test some graphics
>programming.
>> > I do not need access to the awful Win32 API and I would prefer an
>easy setup.
>> > Does this beast exist? Or the transition from MS-DOS to Windows
>killed them all?
>> > Antoni
>
>uEforth v7.0.6.19 - rev 2f2c3cb9e1f6c128d428
>Forth dictionary: 10187368 free + 101756 used = 10289124 total (99% free)
>3 x Forth stacks: 65536 bytes each
> ok
>--> : ud. <# #S #> type ;
> ok
>--> -1 -1 ud.
>18446744073709551615 ok
>-1 -->
>
>I was expecting 38 digits. Is the change to numeric output words common
>for 64-bit Forths? I was expecting #S and #> to handle doubles. This
>kind of breaks ANS code.

It is a defect (verstosz gegen die Ansi Reglen).

Usually 64 bit Forths follows ANS in this regard:

~/PROJECT/ciforths/ciforth/LISPAOL/mal-forth: gforth
Gforth 0.7.3, Copyright (C) 1995-2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
Gforth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license'
Type `bye' to exit
-1. UD. 340282366920938463463374607431768211455 ok
BYE
~/PROJECT/ciforths/ciforth/LISPAOL/mal-forth: lina

AMDX86 ciforth beta 2023Sep03
-1. <# #S #> TYPE
340282366920938463463374607431768211455 OK

Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat spinning. - the Wise from Antrim -