I guess some posters here have adequate SPAM filtering and don't see what I see in Google Groups, but at this point, every thread on the first page is SPAM, except for the very last one. Not sure how many that is, maybe 25?

The only other group I've been posting in is sed, which is a seriously crap group anyway. That one has as much SPAM, but more valid postings... well, depending on how you define "valid" postings. A large percentage of the normal posters like to talk trash about any old subject that comes to mind.

Anyway, with this new infusion of so much SPAM, I will be giving up on usenet. This is just insane.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 6:38:08 AM UTC+1, Lorem Ipsum wrote:
> I guess some posters here have adequate SPAM filtering and don't see what I see in Google Groups,
> but at this point, every thread on the first page is SPAM, except for the very last one.

There are two problems that I observe:
1. There is ONE thread in clf (this one) that is filling up with spam.
2. There are no new messages coming through in other threads (neither are they spammed).

I also have a usenet feed from news.sunsite.dk, but what I see there is exactly the same
as on Google groups. I guess the spam is injected in google groups and some relayers in
usenet do not filter clf anymore.

-marcel

On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 4:38:08 PM UTC+11, Lorem Ipsum wrote:
> I guess some posters here have adequate SPAM filtering and don't see what I see in Google Groups, but at this point, every thread on the first page is SPAM, except for the very last one. Not sure how many that is, maybe 25?

Your post above hasn't made it to eternal-september so perhaps it may too
have joined the google-groups boycott.

> Anyway, with this new infusion of so much SPAM, I will be giving up on usenet. This is just insane.

Usenet is taking action by cutting google-groups. That's all you need to do.

dxforth wrote:

> On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 4:38:08 PM UTC+11, Lorem Ipsum wrote:
>> I guess some posters here have adequate SPAM filtering and don't see what I see in Google Groups, but at this point, every thread on the first page is SPAM, except for the very last one. Not sure how many that is, maybe 25?

> Your post above hasn't made it to eternal-september so perhaps it may too
> have joined the google-groups boycott.

>> Anyway, with this new infusion of so much SPAM, I will be giving up on usenet. This is just insane.

> Usenet is taking action by cutting google-groups. That's all you need to do.

Some users are cutting google-groups, not sure of any servers doing so.

news.eternal-september.org, news.i2pn2.org and chmurka.net are working pretty hard filtering the spam now. e-s has temporarily blocked google-groups, but it is temporary.

Instead of giving up on Usenet, just give up on google groups (op) and use a filtered server.

Check filtered clf here:
https://www.novabbs.com/devel/thread.php?group=comp.lang.forth

--
Retro Guy

Retro Guy wrote:

> Check filtered clf here:
> https://www.novabbs.com/devel/thread.php?group=comp.lang.forth

Seems to do exactly what I want. Registered.

-marcel

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> The only other group I've been posting in is sed, which is a seriously
> crap group anyway.

I've never heard of such a group. Are you sure you're not confusing usenet
with the googlegroups message boards ? If "sed" means the Unix stream editor
then the appropriate newsgroup is comp.unix.shell .

> That one has as much SPAM, but more valid postings... well, depending on how
> you define "valid" postings. A large percentage of the normal posters like
> to talk trash about any old subject that comes to mind.

You are definitely not talking about comp.unix.shell .

> Anyway, with this new infusion of so much SPAM, I will be giving up on
> usenet. This is just insane.

Any reason you can't switch to using a newsreader ? In any case ,
comp.lang.forth is not dying. If users who access the group through
googlegroups decide to give up on it (instead of start using a newsreader) ,
it will be unfortunate but the group will carry on without them.

On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 9:39:30 AM UTC-4, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
> Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The only other group I've been posting in is sed, which is a seriously
> > crap group anyway.
> I've never heard of such a group. Are you sure you're not confusing usenet
> with the googlegroups message boards ? If "sed" means the Unix stream editor
> then the appropriate newsgroup is comp.unix.shell .

science.engineering.design

> > That one has as much SPAM, but more valid postings... well, depending on how
> > you define "valid" postings. A large percentage of the normal posters like
> > to talk trash about any old subject that comes to mind.
> You are definitely not talking about comp.unix.shell .
> > Anyway, with this new infusion of so much SPAM, I will be giving up on
> > usenet. This is just insane.
> Any reason you can't switch to using a newsreader ?

Yes

> In any case ,
> comp.lang.forth is not dying. If users who access the group through
> googlegroups decide to give up on it (instead of start using a newsreader) ,
> it will be unfortunate but the group will carry on without them.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Le dimanche 29 octobre 2023 à 23:37:53 UTC+1, Lorem Ipsum a écrit :
> On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 9:39:30 AM UTC-4, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> > On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
> > Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The only other group I've been posting in is sed, which is a seriously
> > > crap group anyway.
> > I've never heard of such a group. Are you sure you're not confusing usenet
> > with the googlegroups message boards ? If "sed" means the Unix stream editor
> > then the appropriate newsgroup is comp.unix.shell .
> science.engineering.design
> > > That one has as much SPAM, but more valid postings... well, depending on how
> > > you define "valid" postings. A large percentage of the normal posters like
> > > to talk trash about any old subject that comes to mind.
> > You are definitely not talking about comp.unix.shell .
> > > Anyway, with this new infusion of so much SPAM, I will be giving up on
> > > usenet. This is just insane.
> > Any reason you can't switch to using a newsreader ?
> Yes
> > In any case ,
> > comp.lang.forth is not dying. If users who access the group through
> > googlegroups decide to give up on it (instead of start using a newsreader) ,
> > it will be unfortunate but the group will carry on without them.
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

comp.lang.forth is not dying only - I insist on ONLY -if users do not their work part on declaring SPAM messages to make them disappear

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 8:49:42 AM UTC-4, gobli...@gmail.com wrote:
> Le dimanche 29 octobre 2023 à 23:37:53 UTC+1, Lorem Ipsum a écrit :
> > On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 9:39:30 AM UTC-4, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> > > On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The only other group I've been posting in is sed, which is a seriously
> > > > crap group anyway.
> > > I've never heard of such a group. Are you sure you're not confusing usenet
> > > with the googlegroups message boards ? If "sed" means the Unix stream editor
> > > then the appropriate newsgroup is comp.unix.shell .
> > science.engineering.design
> > > > That one has as much SPAM, but more valid postings... well, depending on how
> > > > you define "valid" postings. A large percentage of the normal posters like
> > > > to talk trash about any old subject that comes to mind.
> > > You are definitely not talking about comp.unix.shell .
> > > > Anyway, with this new infusion of so much SPAM, I will be giving up on
> > > > usenet. This is just insane.
> > > Any reason you can't switch to using a newsreader ?
> > Yes
> > > In any case ,
> > > comp.lang.forth is not dying. If users who access the group through
> > > googlegroups decide to give up on it (instead of start using a newsreader) ,
> > > it will be unfortunate but the group will carry on without them.
> > --
> >
> > Rick C.
> >
> > + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> > + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
> comp.lang.forth is not dying only - I insist on ONLY -if users do not their work part on declaring SPAM messages to make them disappear

In Google Groups, reporting SPAM posts only deletes them from your own view.. Everyone has to delete the SPAM posts for themselves.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Lorem Ipsum schrieb am Montag, 30. Oktober 2023 um 20:04:55 UTC+1:
> In Google Groups, reporting SPAM posts only deletes them from your own view. Everyone has to delete the SPAM posts for themselves.

I wouldn't be surprised if you mark spams as read,
that someone else smiles while earning a microcent.
Make those poor bastards happy!

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 6:04:55 AM UTC+11, Lorem Ipsum wrote:
> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 8:49:42 AM UTC-4, gobli...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Le dimanche 29 octobre 2023 à 23:37:53 UTC+1, Lorem Ipsum a écrit :
> > > On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 9:39:30 AM UTC-4, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The only other group I've been posting in is sed, which is a seriously
> > > > > crap group anyway.
> > > > I've never heard of such a group. Are you sure you're not confusing usenet
> > > > with the googlegroups message boards ? If "sed" means the Unix stream editor
> > > > then the appropriate newsgroup is comp.unix.shell .
> > > science.engineering.design
> > > > > That one has as much SPAM, but more valid postings... well, depending on how
> > > > > you define "valid" postings. A large percentage of the normal posters like
> > > > > to talk trash about any old subject that comes to mind.
> > > > You are definitely not talking about comp.unix.shell .
> > > > > Anyway, with this new infusion of so much SPAM, I will be giving up on
> > > > > usenet. This is just insane.
> > > > Any reason you can't switch to using a newsreader ?
> > > Yes
> > > > In any case ,
> > > > comp.lang.forth is not dying. If users who access the group through
> > > > googlegroups decide to give up on it (instead of start using a newsreader) ,
> > > > it will be unfortunate but the group will carry on without them.
> > > --
> > >
> > > Rick C.
> > >
> > > + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> > > + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
> > comp.lang.forth is not dying only - I insist on ONLY -if users do not their work part on declaring SPAM messages to make them disappear
> In Google Groups, reporting SPAM posts only deletes them from your own view. Everyone has to delete the SPAM posts for themselves.

Half the fun of dobbing someone in is seeing them get the boot - righteous justice and all that.
Sad to think Google is simply indulging us.

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:34:34 PM UTC-4, minforth wrote:
> Lorem Ipsum schrieb am Montag, 30. Oktober 2023 um 20:04:55 UTC+1:
> > In Google Groups, reporting SPAM posts only deletes them from your own view. Everyone has to delete the SPAM posts for themselves.
> I wouldn't be surprised if you mark spams as read,
> that someone else smiles while earning a microcent.
> Make those poor bastards happy!

How would anyone know I opened a post and get revenue for that???

How much do you make on your posts?

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
>How would anyone know I opened a post and get revenue for that??? =20

Given that you use Google Groups, certainly Google knows, and they get
revenue by serving you advertisements in addition to the group's
contents. They may also get revenue from selling data about you.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:11:42 AM UTC-4, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> >How would anyone know I opened a post and get revenue for that??? =20
>
> Given that you use Google Groups, certainly Google knows, and they get
> revenue by serving you advertisements in addition to the group's
> contents. They may also get revenue from selling data about you.

What advertisements? What "data"??? I take it you've never used Google Groups?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

> Instead of giving up on Usenet, just give up on google groups (op) and use a filtered server.
>
> Check filtered clf here:
> https://www.novabbs.com/devel/thread.php?group=comp.lang.forth

I wonder if that server allows for properly formatted code in the posts
(like using some kind of „code” tags, or similarly), and doesn't misformat
it (which GG server does)?
That alone would be quite encouraging.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
Zbig <zbigniew2011@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Instead of giving up on Usenet, just give up on google groups (op) and use a filtered server.
> >
> > Check filtered clf here:
> > https://www.novabbs.com/devel/thread.php?group=comp.lang.forth
>
> I wonder if that server allows for properly formatted code in the posts
> (like using some kind of „code” tags, or similarly), and doesn't misformat
> it (which GG server does)?
> That alone would be quite encouraging.

Properly formatted is relative. For Usenet, properly formatted is plain text, so no, the site does not support bbcode or html.

It does use monospaced fonts, so things should align vertically, which is nice for sharing code or whatever.

--
Retro Guy

Retro Guy <retroguy@novabbs.org> writes:
>On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
>Zbig <zbigniew2011@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Instead of giving up on Usenet, just give up on google groups (op) and use a filtered server.
>> >
>> > Check filtered clf here:
>> > https://www.novabbs.com/devel/thread.php?group=comp.lang.forth
>>
>> I wonder if that server allows for properly formatted code in the posts
>> (like using some kind of "code" tags, or similarly), and doesn't misformat
>> it (which GG server does)?

>Properly formatted is relative.

Not at all.

>It does use monospaced fonts,

Which is proper formatting for Usenet. It even decodes the
quoted-printable misfeature that Zbig posted (probably without
knowing, just by using Google Groups; I wonder if the UTF-8 quotes
(which I replaced with ASCII ") are his doing or another misfeature of
Google Groups). If you want to see what his article looks like in a
client that is unaware of quoted-printable (like mine, or
al.howardknight.net), take a look at
<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=169883960600>.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:11:42=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> Given that you use Google Groups, certainly Google knows, and they get=20
>> revenue by serving you advertisements in addition to the group's=20
>> contents. They may also get revenue from selling data about you.=20
>
>What advertisements?

You have never been served advertisements by Google, ever? Note that
a lot of the advertisements on non-Google web services are served by
Google.

>What "data"???

Data that they determine from what you read and what you write. There
is a reason why Google Groups now requires signing in to an account
even if you only want to read.

>I take it you've never used Google Gr=
>oups?=20

I have used it decades ago (when it came out of the ashes of dejanews)
for looking up old postings. It became increasingly broken (as in: I
did not find a significant part of the postings I wanted to find,
despite having its Message-Id) and painful over time, and, of course,
once there was al.howardknight.net and www.novabbs.com, there has been
no reason to go there. And now that Google Groups does not let me do
anything without signing in, I obviously don't use it.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 11:47:29 GMT
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:

> Retro Guy <retroguy@novabbs.org> writes:
> >On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
> >Zbig <zbigniew2011@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > Instead of giving up on Usenet, just give up on google groups (op) and use a filtered server.
> >> >
> >> > Check filtered clf here:
> >> > https://www.novabbs.com/devel/thread.php?group=comp.lang.forth
> >>
> >> I wonder if that server allows for properly formatted code in the posts
> >> (like using some kind of "code" tags, or similarly), and doesn't misformat
> >> it (which GG server does)?
>
> >Properly formatted is relative.
>
> Not at all.
>
> >It does use monospaced fonts,
>
> Which is proper formatting for Usenet. It even decodes the
> quoted-printable misfeature that Zbig posted (probably without
> knowing, just by using Google Groups; I wonder if the UTF-8 quotes
> (which I replaced with ASCII ") are his doing or another misfeature of
> Google Groups). If you want to see what his article looks like in a
> client that is unaware of quoted-printable (like mine, or
> al.howardknight.net), take a look at
> <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=169883960600>.

Ah, I assumed the question to be whether one could post html style messages. Yes, it supports decoding quoted-printable and base64. For posting, it's really designed for plain text.

--
Retro Guy

On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 11:47:29 GMT
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:
> Retro Guy <retroguy@novabbs.org> writes:
> >On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
> >Zbig <zbigniew2011@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > Instead of giving up on Usenet, just give up on google groups (op) and use a filtered server.
> >> >
> >> > Check filtered clf here:
> >> > https://www.novabbs.com/devel/thread.php?group=comp.lang.forth
> >>
> >> I wonder if that server allows for properly formatted code in the posts
> >> (like using some kind of "code" tags, or similarly), and doesn't misformat
> >> it (which GG server does)?
>
> >Properly formatted is relative.
>
> Not at all.

"Properly formatted" is too general. The complaint about googlegroups is more
specific : a few months ago it started breaking code indentation. So someone
would post not using googlegroups something like

block1
code
block2
more code
block3
even more code
end block
end block
end block

and when someone replied through googlegroups , the above would be quoted as

>block1
>code
>block2
>more code
>block3
>even more code
>end block
>end block
>end block

..It has nothing to do with fonts or other issues of formatting. I don't know
if googlegroups still does that.

> >It does use monospaced fonts,
>
> Which is proper formatting for Usenet. It even decodes the
> quoted-printable misfeature that Zbig posted (probably without
> knowing, just by using Google Groups; I wonder if the UTF-8 quotes
> (which I replaced with ASCII ") are his doing or another misfeature of
> Google Groups). If you want to see what his article looks like in a
> client that is unaware of quoted-printable (like mine, or
> al.howardknight.net), take a look at
> <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=169883960600>.

I think that the issue with quoted-printable is that people who post
through googlegroups type their messages in a browser window and only press
<enter> when changing a paragraph. This results in long logical lines. The
relevant RFC gives a "SHOULD" that physical lines should not be above a
certain number of octets. I don't remember how long but it is below 100
octets. So the googlegroups interface obeys that SHOULD and breaks up longer
lines to physical lines which do not exceed the limit and uses the line
continuation feature of quoted-printable to indicate what the logical lines
should be. This I consider correct design : preserve the logical lines as the
user typed them. It is the users who should press <enter> every 75 characters
or so instead of only when they want to change paragraphs. This way it will
also avoid very long lines even with clients which can decode
quoted-printable .

By the way , Anton , didn't you use to use emacs ? emacs can certainly
handle quoted-printable .Why have you switched to xrn ? Is it even
maintained ?

--
A goatscape (not to be confused with "scapegoat") is a landscape full
of goats.

On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 11:58:38 GMT
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:
> Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> >I take it you've never used Google Groups?
>
> I have used it decades ago (when it came out of the ashes of dejanews)
> for looking up old postings. It became increasingly broken (as in: I
> did not find a significant part of the postings I wanted to find,
> despite having its Message-Id) and painful over time, and, of course,
> once there was al.howardknight.net and www.novabbs.com, there has been
> no reason to go there. And now that Google Groups does not let me do
> anything without signing in, I obviously don't use it.

I hadn't noticed the development you mention in your last sentence. It
turns out that it's not as bad as that. If you already have a URL to a
thread , you can access it. For example I can read
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.lang.forth/u93Qrmr_sLc using
w3m .But just trying to access the group , I get a message that you
need javascript enabled to sign in and it's the same when I have w3m
pretend to be firefox. So another turn for the worse for googlegroups
it seems. I wonder when they are going to shut it down completely.

I also tried
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.lang.misc/C-sKw5qsUII .I saved
a copy of this in May 2021 and my copy has both Bjarne Stroustrup and
Alexander Stepanov posting but when I go to the thread now with w3m
I don't see any Stroustrup posts. It could be that w3m plays less
nice with the current state of googlegroups or it could be that some
content has been removed for unkwown reasons.

--
vlaho.ninja/menu

On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 15:29:41 -0000 (UTC)
Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 11:58:38 GMT
> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:
> > Lorem Ipsum <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> > >I take it you've never used Google Groups?
> >
> > I have used it decades ago (when it came out of the ashes of dejanews)
> > for looking up old postings. It became increasingly broken (as in: I
> > did not find a significant part of the postings I wanted to find,
> > despite having its Message-Id) and painful over time, and, of course,
> > once there was al.howardknight.net and www.novabbs.com, there has been
> > no reason to go there. And now that Google Groups does not let me do
> > anything without signing in, I obviously don't use it.
>
> I hadn't noticed the development you mention in your last sentence. It
> turns out that it's not as bad as that. If you already have a URL to a
> thread , you can access it. For example I can read
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.lang.forth/u93Qrmr_sLc using
> w3m .But just trying to access the group , I get a message that you
> need javascript enabled to sign in and it's the same when I have w3m
> pretend to be firefox. So another turn for the worse for googlegroups
> it seems. I wonder when they are going to shut it down completely.

Nope. I can use w3m to access https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth
and https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/TwHq81HHz8Y (this thread)
just fine ; no signing in is needed ; also no cookies and no javascript since
w3m doesn't support it. The only problem is that the code indentation in
<v7=8GPJ8IqEMUWJyT@bongo-ra.co> is removed.

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:
>I think that the issue with quoted-printable is that people who post
>through googlegroups type their messages in a browser window and only press
><enter> when changing a paragraph. This results in long logical lines. The
>relevant RFC gives a "SHOULD" that physical lines should not be above a
>certain number of octets. I don't remember how long but it is below 100
>octets.

It's not about octets. The classical recommendation was to limit the
line length to about 70 characters, so that, with a few levels of
quoting, you do not exceed 80, which is not only the width of
classical text terminals, but also the width of the windows that many
people use to read Usenet; and that width is probably related to the
recommendation to limit the line length in books to 75 characters,
because with longer lines it becomes harder to find the next line.

>So the googlegroups interface obeys that SHOULD and breaks up longer
>lines to physical lines which do not exceed the limit and uses the line
>continuation feature of quoted-printable to indicate what the logical lines
>should be. This I consider correct design : preserve the logical lines as the
>user typed them.

No, Google Groups does not obey the recommendation in any way.

If the stuff is decoded by a Usenet client that knows Q-P, the
resulting lines are hundreds of characters long, which is against the
recommendation. If the line is quoted in a followup, where should the
quote character ">" go? There typically is only one ">" at the start
of the line. A reader of the followup who uses a client that does
some kind of line-breaking will typically not see ">" on the
continuation lines, and will have a harder-than necessary time
figuring out who wrote what.

It's worse if there is a followup by a user with a Usenet client that
does not know Q-P. Then the Q-P line breaks in the middle of words
are preserved in the followup, and on the next followup by someone
using Google Groups, each quoted line is split into two lines, with
the second of these lines consisting of only a few characters. So a
word may be split into three lines at that point, and even more after
another round of followups. The result is totally unreadable, on both
sides. Q-P is a bad idea.

If google provides an interface that encourages people to write very
long lines, then their client should be doing the line breaking by
inserting newlines (not Q-P stuff) on posting. The better alternative
would be to provide an interface that encourages line lengths
according to the convention.

And it certainly should not be using Q-P for Usenet. Q-P was
introduced for mail because some mail transports are not 8-bit clean
and cannot handle lines longer than x octets (and here octets are
relevant). Usenet has been 8-bit-clean since forever, and the
justification for Q-P has not held for Usenet. And, as explained
above, it does not work for Usenet.

>By the way , Anton , didn't you use to use emacs ? emacs can certainly
>handle quoted-printable .Why have you switched to xrn ? Is it even
>maintained ?

I have used xrn for three decades and have never used Gnus. I have
used emacs for editing since 1989. xrn 10.11 has been released a few
months ago.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> writes:
>Nope. I can use w3m to access https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth
>and https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/TwHq81HHz8Y (this thread)
>just fine ; no signing in is needed ; also no cookies and no javascript since
>w3m doesn't support it.

That's a nice improvement compared to the state of Google Groups that
I remember. In <2012Jul16.165632@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (from,
obviously, 2012) I reported that Google Groups requires JavaScript to
view a Google Groups link to some discussion. Maybe the competition
from novabbs and al.howardknight.net has inspired them to reconsider
their course.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

On 2/11/2023 1:34 am, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 11:47:29 GMT
> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:
>> Retro Guy <retroguy@novabbs.org> writes:
>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
>>> Zbig <zbigniew2011@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Instead of giving up on Usenet, just give up on google groups (op) and use a filtered server.
>>>>>
>>>>> Check filtered clf here:
>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/devel/thread.php?group=comp.lang.forth
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if that server allows for properly formatted code in the posts
>>>> (like using some kind of "code" tags, or similarly), and doesn't misformat
>>>> it (which GG server does)?
>>
>>> Properly formatted is relative.
>>
>> Not at all.
>
> "Properly formatted" is too general. The complaint about googlegroups is more
> specific : a few months ago it started breaking code indentation. So someone
> would post not using googlegroups something like
>
> block1
> code
> block2
> more code
> block3
> even more code
> end block
> end block
> end block
>
> and when someone replied through googlegroups , the above would be quoted as
>
>> block1
>> code
>> block2
>> more code
>> block3
>> even more code
>> end block
>> end block
>> end block
>
> .It has nothing to do with fonts or other issues of formatting. I don't know
> if googlegroups still does that.

Ruvim posted a workaround:

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/qW5U1xmla_0/m/xSI3W02dBQAJ

It's very clever. OTOH GG shouldn't be messing with Usenet posts and simply
display as received. One could say the same for Thunderbird reader...