I use gforth in a terminal window to type in some quick conversions
between decimal and hexadecimal numbers. After a recent upgrade to a new
gforth version I see:

$ gforth
Gforth 0.7.9_20240104

$ff ok 1
.. 255 ok
255 ok 1
hex.
*terminal*:4:1: warning: hex. is obsolete$FF ok

What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number in
hexadecimal? I see some recommendations like "Don’t use hex, use
base-execute instead." in the manual, but I don't understand what that
is trying to tell me. Is there a tutorial on new style gforth number
base conversions somewhere, preferably with lots of examples?

Note that when using a search engine to research this issue, the first
hits that come up are from this site with a very old manual:
https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/
which says "This manual is for Gforth (version 0.7.0, November 2, 2008)".

Further down in the list of search engine suggestions is a recent manual
version https://gforth.org/manual/index.html which says "This manual is
for Gforth (version 0.7.9_20240229, February 29, 2024)".

On 22/03/2024 8:06 am, Buzz McCool wrote:
> I use gforth in a terminal window to type in some quick conversions between decimal and hexadecimal numbers. After a recent upgrade to a new gforth version I see:
>
>
> $ gforth
> Gforth 0.7.9_20240104
>
> $ff  ok 1
> . 255  ok
> 255  ok 1
> hex.
> *terminal*:4:1: warning: hex. is obsolete$FF  ok
>
>
> What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number in hexadecimal?

Did you try h. ?

As for docs 'locate hex.' will point you to the file where it's defined and
alternatives might exist.

Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:
>I use gforth in a terminal window to type in some quick conversions
>between decimal and hexadecimal numbers. After a recent upgrade to a new
>gforth version I see:
>
>
>$ gforth
>Gforth 0.7.9_20240104
>
>$ff ok 1
>. 255 ok
>255 ok 1
>hex.
>*terminal*:4:1: warning: hex. is obsolete$FF ok
>
>
>What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number in
>hexadecimal?

H.

This is in line with common practice in other Forth systems.

>I see some recommendations like "Don’t use hex, use
>base-execute instead." in the manual, but I don't understand what that
>is trying to tell me.

This is about the standard word "HEX", not the Gforth word "HEX.".
HEX permanently changes BASE, whereas BASE-EXECUTE changes it only for
the word which it EXECUTEs. A permanent change is not appropriate for
use in a generally useful definition.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:
>>What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number in
>>hexadecimal?
>
>H.

If you build Gforth from he now-current source, and then ask the new
Gforth

help hex.

it will tell you

'hex.' ( u -- ) gforth-obsolete "hex."
Old name for 'h.' ok

For a slightly older Gforth, the answer you get is:

No documentation for hex., LOCATEing source
stuff.fs:677
[...]
synonym hex. h. \ gforth-obsolete
\G Display @i{u} as an unsigned hex number, prefixed with a "$" and
\G followed by a space.
[...]

Here you can see that HEX. is a synonym for H.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

BTW (I don't know gforth well enough) is there any formatted output in gforth
e.g. similar to C printf?

Contrived: 12 dup "This is %d in hex: %X" -> This is 12 in hex: C

minforth@gmx.net (minforth) writes:
>BTW (I don't know gforth well enough) is there any formatted output in gforth
>e.g. similar to C printf?
>
>Contrived: 12 dup "This is %d in hex: %X" -> This is 12 in hex: C

I would write that as

12 ." This is " dup dec. ." in hex: " h.

Output:

This is 12 in hex: $C

If you insist on output without "$", it would be

12 ." This is " dup dec. ." in hex: " `u. $10 base-execute

Alternatively, you can also use C's printf:

c-library printf-nn-lib
\c #include <stdio.h>
c-function printf-nn printf a n n -- n
end-c-library
"This is %d in hex: %X\000" drop 12 dup printf-nn drop

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

Anton Ertl wrote:

> Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:
>>I use gforth in a terminal window to type in some quick conversions
>>between decimal and hexadecimal numbers. After a recent upgrade to a new
>>gforth version I see:
>>
>>
>>$ gforth
>>Gforth 0.7.9_20240104
>>
>>$ff ok 1
>>. 255 ok
>>255 ok 1
>>hex.
>>*terminal*:4:1: warning: hex. is obsolete$FF ok
>>
>>
>>What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number in
>>hexadecimal?

> H.

> This is in line with common practice in other Forth systems.

lxf/ntf has had h. from the beginning. It is one of the most used debugging tools!
There is also h.s which show the stack items in hex and .. that dumps and clears the stack

BR
Peter

PMF wrote:

>>>
>>>What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number in
>>>hexadecimal?

>> H.

>> This is in line with common practice in other Forth systems.

> lxf/ntf has had h. from the beginning. It is one of the most used debugging tools!
> There is also h.s which show the stack items in hex and .. that dumps and clears the stack

FORTH> .s
Data: ---
System: ---
Float: --- ok
FORTH> 123 77 >s pi .s
Data: 123 ---
System: 77 ---
Float: 3.1415926535897932385 --- ok
[1]<1>{1}FORTH> -1. .s
Data: 123 -1 -1 ---
System: 77 ---
Float: 3.1415926535897932385 --- ok
[3]<1>{1}FORTH> -s e. d. . 3.141593e0 -1 123 ok
FORTH> hex 123 .s
Data: 123 ---
System: ---
Float: --- ok
[1]FORTH> . 123 ok
FORTH> decimal 123 hex .s
Data: 7B ---
System: ---
Float: --- ok
[1]FORTH> . decimal 7B ok

-marcel

In article <65fcd9a8$1@news.ausics.net>, dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 22/03/2024 8:06 am, Buzz McCool wrote:
>> I use gforth in a terminal window to type in some quick conversions
>between decimal and hexadecimal numbers. After a recent upgrade to a new
>gforth version I see:
>>
>>
>> $ gforth
>> Gforth 0.7.9_20240104
>>
>> $ff  ok 1
>> . 255  ok
>> 255  ok 1
>> hex.
>> *terminal*:4:1: warning: hex. is obsolete$FF  ok
>>
>>
>> What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number
>in hexadecimal?
>
>Did you try h. ?
>
>As for docs 'locate hex.' will point you to the file where it's defined and
>alternatives might exist.

Neither will work with 0.7.3 that most people have.
Groetjes Albert
>
>
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat purring. - the Wise from Antrim -

In article <31213aabb674a4c49ae2c68a907b364a@www.novabbs.com>,
PMF <peter.m.falth@gmail.com> wrote:
>Anton Ertl wrote:
>
>> Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>I use gforth in a terminal window to type in some quick conversions
>>>between decimal and hexadecimal numbers. After a recent upgrade to a new
>>>gforth version I see:
>>>
>>>
>>>$ gforth
>>>Gforth 0.7.9_20240104
>>>
>>>$ff ok 1
>>>. 255 ok
>>>255 ok 1
>>>hex.
>>>*terminal*:4:1: warning: hex. is obsolete$FF ok
>>>
>>>
>>>What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number in
>>>hexadecimal?
>
>> H.
>
>> This is in line with common practice in other Forth systems.
>
>lxf/ntf has had h. from the beginning. It is one of the most used
>debugging tools!
>There is also h.s which show the stack items in hex and .. that dumps
>and clears the stack

H. is present in almost forth systems originating from the Netherlands.
>
>BR
>Peter

Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat purring. - the Wise from Antrim -

On 22/03/2024 11:44 pm, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl wrote:
> In article <65fcd9a8$1@news.ausics.net>, dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 22/03/2024 8:06 am, Buzz McCool wrote:
>>> I use gforth in a terminal window to type in some quick conversions
>> between decimal and hexadecimal numbers. After a recent upgrade to a new
>> gforth version I see:
>>>
>>>
>>> $ gforth
>>> Gforth 0.7.9_20240104
>>>
>>> $ff  ok 1
>>> . 255  ok
>>> 255  ok 1
>>> hex.
>>> *terminal*:4:1: warning: hex. is obsolete$FF  ok
>>>
>>>
>>> What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number
>> in hexadecimal?
>>
>> Did you try h. ?
>>
>> As for docs 'locate hex.' will point you to the file where it's defined and
>> alternatives might exist.
>
> Neither will work with 0.7.3 that most people have.
> Groetjes Albert

Too bad. I assumed it was only Windows users that didn't know to compile from
source and must take what's given them.

albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl writes:
>In article <65fcd9a8$1@news.ausics.net>, dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 22/03/2024 8:06 am, Buzz McCool wrote:
>>> *terminal*:4:1: warning: hex. is obsolete$FF  ok
[...]
>>Did you try h. ?
>>
>>As for docs 'locate hex.' will point you to the file where it's defined and
>>alternatives might exist.
>
>Neither will work with 0.7.3 that most people have.

But then, if you use Gforth 0.7.3., you don't get this warning.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

> Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> What am I supposed to be using in place of "hex." to display a number in
>> hexadecimal?

On 3/21/2024 11:33 PM, Anton Ertl wrote:
> H.
>
> This is in line with common practice in other Forth systems.

I see dec. documented,
https://gforth.org/manual/Word-Index.html#Word-Index_fn_letter-D

but not h.
https://gforth.org/manual/Word-Index.html#Word-Index_fn_letter-H

The older 0.7.0 docs does show hex. (but not h.) in both the word index
and the "Simple-numeric-output" section.

Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:
>but not h.
>https://gforth.org/manual/Word-Index.html#Word-Index_fn_letter-H

Yes, I only added H. to the documentation yesterday. In general,
documentation is quite a bit behind development, and the state of the
documentation is why we have not released Gforth 1.0 yet. I document
as I find the time.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> H.
> This is in line with common practice in other Forth systems.

The warning message about HEX. is annoying in a system that has been
around for so long. IMHO it would be better for HEX. and H. to both
work, without HEX. generating unnecessary warning messages.

On 23/03/2024 6:49 pm, Paul Rubin wrote:
> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>> H.
>> This is in line with common practice in other Forth systems.
>
> The warning message about HEX. is annoying in a system that has been
> around for so long. IMHO it would be better for HEX. and H. to both
> work, without HEX. generating unnecessary warning messages.

Can't say I've felt the need for either given auto stack display:

123 -123 ok 123 -123 <
hex ok 7B FF85 <
decimal ok 123 -123 <

Should I need formatted hex in an app I have library routines for that.

In article <87frwh75hk.fsf@nightsong.com>,
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>> H.
>> This is in line with common practice in other Forth systems.
>
>The warning message about HEX. is annoying in a system that has been
>around for so long. IMHO it would be better for HEX. and H. to both
>work, without HEX. generating unnecessary warning messages.

It is reasonably absurd that there is a warning about HEX. and that
H. is undocumented at the same time.

Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat purring. - the Wise from Antrim -

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:
>anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>> H.
>> This is in line with common practice in other Forth systems.
>
>The warning message about HEX. is annoying in a system that has been
>around for so long. IMHO it would be better for HEX. and H. to both
>work,

They both work (for now).

>without HEX. generating unnecessary warning messages.

You can turn off warnings with

WARNINGS OFF

but of course that also turns off all other warnings.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

In article <2024Mar23.075632@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>,
Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:
>>but not h.
>>https://gforth.org/manual/Word-Index.html#Word-Index_fn_letter-H
>
>Yes, I only added H. to the documentation yesterday. In general,
>documentation is quite a bit behind development, and the state of the
>documentation is why we have not released Gforth 1.0 yet. I document
>as I find the time.

Without further comment I recite the history of adding NIP to ciforth. 1]
I was reluctant to introduce it, as it wasn't present in fig-Forth.
ROT and SWAP are changing the stack order, which is bad and is not to
be obscured. I felt that NIP was hiding a SWAP, but after all NIP
doesn't actually change the stack order. That was the reason that
Chuck Moore uses it, probably.
(New words are not added lightly to the ciforth core.)

---------------
worddoc( {JUGGLING},{NIP},{nip},{n1 n2---n2},{ISO},
{Drop the second number from the stack.},
{{DUP},{DROP},{SWAP},{OVER}},
{{S0 @ DSP! 1 2 3 4 NIP .S},{S[ 1 2 4 ]},
{S0 @ DSP!},{} },
enddoc)
CODE_HEADER({NIP},{NIP})
POP AX
POP BX
PUSH AX
_NEXT
---------------

A new word is to be preceeded by a worddoc macro.
It is explained in the documentation of the generic system cifgen.info.
(this is not the forth itself)
---------------------------------------
The 'worddoc' macro defines a structure with additional information
of a word. Generally it is placed in front of the word. The same word
can be found several times in the input file, but only one is selected
in a particular configuration. The same goes for the corresponding
'worddoc' .
Its fields are:
1. Wordset name.
2. Word name.
3. Pronunciation. This is a pure textual and pronounceable
identification of the word. It is also used in 'texinfo' that
doesn't handle special characters well.
4. Stack effect. The stack effect obeys all the conventions put forth
in the user manual.
5. Properties. Properties are i.a. immediate and such, and the
standards with which this word complies. Again this is described
in the user manual.
6. Description.
7. References. This is a list of names of other Forth words, that can
be studied to better understand this one.
8. Tests. This is a list. The first and all other odd members is a
test, code that can be passed to Forth. The second and all other
even members is the expected outcome of the preceding test.
'worddoc' are such that a structure starts with 'worddoc( ' and end
with a '})' at the end of a line. This means that a worddoc can be
simply skipped if it occurs in Forth code, by defining a word 'worddoc('
that reads and ignores source up to the end sentinel.
--------------------------------------------

1] This is as far as it goes. Of course NIP was present in the library.
>
>- anton

Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat purring. - the Wise from Antrim -

I am guessing that NIP came in with TOS caching, because with it
NIP is just a stack pointer in- or decrement

On 25/03/2024 6:53 am, minforth wrote:
> I am guessing that NIP came in with TOS caching, because with it
> NIP is just a stack pointer in- or decrement

Likely it was frequency. In the F83 distribution NIP occurs 21 times.
Don't know if it was they who coined it but it seems to have taken off
from there (F83 being the replacement for FigForth).

dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
>On 25/03/2024 6:53 am, minforth wrote:
>> I am guessing that NIP came in with TOS caching, because with it
>> NIP is just a stack pointer in- or decrement
>
>Likely it was frequency. In the F83 distribution NIP occurs 21 times.

130 occurences of NIP in the Gforth image (for comparison, 545
occurences of DROP).

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023: https://euro.theforth.net/2023

dxf wrote:

> (F83 being the replacement for FigForth).

You probably mean Forth-83. It did not comprise NIP.
(F83 was Laxen&Perry although popular)

On 3/23/2024 12:49 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> ... IMHO it would be better for HEX. and H. to both
> work, without HEX. generating unnecessary warning messages.

Given there is a DEC. word, having a HEX. word (that doesn't throw
errors) does seem more intuitive / orthogonal than just the H. found in
other Forth systems.

In article <utumib$1s4nd$1@dont-email.me>,
Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 3/23/2024 12:49 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> ... IMHO it would be better for HEX. and H. to both
>> work, without HEX. generating unnecessary warning messages.
>
>Given there is a DEC. word, having a HEX. word (that doesn't throw
>errors) does seem more intuitive / orthogonal than just the H. found in
>other Forth systems.

Tradition trumps intuition.

If you design a Forth-like language from scratch that is consistent and
orthogonal, there is a whole bunch more that you have to do.

Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat purring. - the Wise from Antrim -