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devel / comp.lang.lisp / emacs vs lisp machines (was: What have we lost?)

SubjectAuthor
* emacs vs lisp machines (was: What have we lost?)Javier
+- Re: emacs vs lisp machinesStefan Monnier
+- Re: emacs vs lisp machines (was: What have we lost?)Jeff Barnett
`- Re: emacs vs lisp machinesHASM

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emacs vs lisp machines (was: What have we lost?)

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From: invalid@invalid.invalid (Javier)
Subject: emacs vs lisp machines (was: What have we lost?)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,comp.emacs,comp.lang.lisp
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 by: Javier - Mon, 12 Sep 2022 14:27 UTC

Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> eMacs is the modern Lisp Machine. How is it not?

I agree. But elisp, the dialect it uses, has its limitations.

Quoting from the elisp manual:

GNU Emacs Lisp is largely inspired by Maclisp, and a little by Common
Lisp. If you know Common Lisp, you will notice many similarities.
However, many features of Common Lisp have been omitted or simplified in
order to reduce the memory requirements of GNU Emacs. Sometimes the
simplifications are so drastic that a Common Lisp user might be very
confused. We will occasionally point out how GNU Emacs Lisp differs
from Common Lisp. If you don’t know Common Lisp, don’t worry about it;
this manual is self-contained.

A certain amount of Common Lisp emulation is available via the
‘cl-lib’ library. *Note Overview: (cl)Top.

Perhaps somebody who has worked with real lisp machines can comment further.

Re: emacs vs lisp machines

<jwvo7vk5wfn.fsf-monnier+comp.lang.lisp@gnu.org>

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From: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,comp.emacs,comp.lang.lisp
Subject: Re: emacs vs lisp machines
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 by: Stefan Monnier - Mon, 12 Sep 2022 17:38 UTC

Javier [2022-09-12 14:27:48] wrote:
> Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> eMacs is the modern Lisp Machine. How is it not?
>
> I agree. But elisp, the dialect it uses, has its limitations.
>
> Quoting from the elisp manual:
>
> GNU Emacs Lisp is largely inspired by Maclisp, and a little by Common
> Lisp. If you know Common Lisp, you will notice many similarities.
> However, many features of Common Lisp have been omitted or simplified in
> order to reduce the memory requirements of GNU Emacs. Sometimes the
> simplifications are so drastic that a Common Lisp user might be very
> confused. We will occasionally point out how GNU Emacs Lisp differs
> from Common Lisp. If you don’t know Common Lisp, don’t worry about it;
> this manual is self-contained.
>
> A certain amount of Common Lisp emulation is available via the
> ‘cl-lib’ library. *Note Overview: (cl)Top.
>
> Perhaps somebody who has worked with real lisp machines can comment further.

Nowadays most of the language-level functionality of Lisp Machines is
available in ELisp either "in the core" or via libraries that are
bundled with Emacs.

What is lacking is the lower-level support, i.e. the ability to hack
on the internals without leaving the Lisp world: in Emacs, a lot of the
lower-level details are written in C.

Stefan

Re: emacs vs lisp machines (was: What have we lost?)

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From: jbb@notatt.com (Jeff Barnett)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,comp.emacs,comp.lang.lisp
Subject: Re: emacs vs lisp machines (was: What have we lost?)
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 by: Jeff Barnett - Mon, 12 Sep 2022 18:02 UTC

On 9/12/2022 8:27 AM, Javier wrote:
> Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> eMacs is the modern Lisp Machine. How is it not?
>
> I agree. But elisp, the dialect it uses, has its limitations.
>
> Quoting from the elisp manual:
>
> GNU Emacs Lisp is largely inspired by Maclisp, and a little by Common
> Lisp. If you know Common Lisp, you will notice many similarities.
> However, many features of Common Lisp have been omitted or simplified in
> order to reduce the memory requirements of GNU Emacs. Sometimes the
> simplifications are so drastic that a Common Lisp user might be very
> confused. We will occasionally point out how GNU Emacs Lisp differs
> from Common Lisp. If you don’t know Common Lisp, don’t worry about it;
> this manual is self-contained.
>
> A certain amount of Common Lisp emulation is available via the
> ‘cl-lib’ library. *Note Overview: (cl)Top.
>
> Perhaps somebody who has worked with real lisp machines can comment further.
One thing I miss entirely was the Symbolics keyboard: layout, action,
and integration with Lisp. Another thing lacking in most (if not all)
modern Lisp providers is robustness. We had one Lisp machine that was
used as a development machine as well as the namespace server for about
8-10 other machines. In one stretch it was up, continuously, for a
little over two years - the computer room was shut down for some
electronics work over the Xmas holiday and that capped the uptime. Since
the machine "OS" was build in the same language and shared flavor
(latter CL objects) you could do almost anything without leaving the
Lisp abstraction. It felt clumsy returning to the world were Emacs was
twisted in; slimy you might say.
--
Jeff Barnett

Re: emacs vs lisp machines

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Newsgroups: comp.misc,comp.emacs,comp.lang.lisp
Subject: Re: emacs vs lisp machines
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 by: HASM - Mon, 24 Oct 2022 21:53 UTC

steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> writes:

> I still have a symbolics from 1986. it runs fine. ...
> If you want pictures let me know she is awesome but old.

Like these?

https://www.ifis.uni-luebeck.de/~moeller/symbolics-info/family.html

-- HASM

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