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devel / comp.protocols.dicom / Detection of missing/deleted records.

SubjectAuthor
* Detection of missing/deleted records.Travis Creighton
`* Detection of missing/deleted records.Jim Irrer
 `* Detection of missing/deleted records.David Gobbi
  `* Detection of missing/deleted records.Herman Oosterwijk
   +* Detection of missing/deleted records.Jim Irrer
   |`- Detection of missing/deleted records.Travis Creighton
   `- Detection of missing/deleted records.Toni Magni

1
Detection of missing/deleted records.

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Subject: Detection of missing/deleted records.
From: performingsolutions@gmail.com (Travis Creighton)
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 by: Travis Creighton - Sun, 7 May 2023 15:33 UTC

I am researching ways to detect missing/deleted records for a given Accession (0008,0050). I've been using Instance Number (0020,0013) but was wondering if there are other attributes that could be used. Noticing the sequenced filenames on a CD not corresponding to the same sequential passage of time according to Acquisition DateTime (0008,002A) put me on this trek. I can understand files missing from within the sequence but not the reordering of file sequences such that time is not linear with the sequence.

The below shows what I have found using the above attributes.

I would love to know what is signified by the last 3 digits in the numbers below. Also, does anyone have other suggestions for detecting abnormalities?

1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136677.2019923.15513.983
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136678.2019923.15513.985
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136679.2019923.15513.985
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136680.2019923.15513.985
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136681.2019923.15513.986
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136682.2019923.15513.986
136683 Deleted
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136684.2019923.15513.986
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136685.2019923.15513.986
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136686.2019923.15513.987
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136687.2019923.15513.987
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136688.2019923.15513.987
136689 Deleted
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136690.2019923.15513.988
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136691.2019923.15513.988
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136692.2019923.15513.988
136693 Deleted
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136694.2019923.15513.989
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136695.2019923.15513.989
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136696.2019923.15513.989
136697 Deleted
1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136698.2019923.15513.990

Thx
-Travis

Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.

<c701b8f3-51dc-460f-be7c-69b3e1a618b9n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.
From: jimirrer@gmail.com (Jim Irrer)
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 by: Jim Irrer - Mon, 8 May 2023 12:09 UTC

Travis -

They do not mean anything. The point of a UID is to be
unique, and nothing else. When one is generated, the implementer
starts with a prefix, but is free to choose the digits that
follow, as long as they are unique. Implementations often use
MAC addresses, current time, and incrementing numbers to make
them unique, so there may be some apparent patterns for
images from a given imaging machine, but the pattern can
not be relied upon.

I would recommend using (0008,0018) UI SOPInstanceUID as
a test for uniqueness.

From the spec:

https://dicom.nema.org/medical/dicom/current/output/chtml/part05/chapter_9.html

Although a specific implementation may choose some
particular structure for its generated UIDs, it should
never assume that a UID carries any semantics. Thus, a
UID shall not be "parsed" to find a particular value or
component. Component definition (for the suffix) is
implementation specific and may change as long as
uniqueness is maintained. Parsing UIDs may jeopardize
the ability to inter-operate as implementations evolve.

In my experience neither Accession (0008,0050) and
Instance Number (0020,0013) are reliably unique, though
in some cases they could be.

Hope this helps - Jim

On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 11:33:17 AM UTC-4, Travis Creighton wrote:
> I am researching ways to detect missing/deleted records for a given Accession (0008,0050). I've been using Instance Number (0020,0013) but was wondering if there are other attributes that could be used. Noticing the sequenced filenames on a CD not corresponding to the same sequential passage of time according to Acquisition DateTime (0008,002A) put me on this trek. I can understand files missing from within the sequence but not the reordering of file sequences such that time is not linear with the sequence.
>
> The below shows what I have found using the above attributes.
>
> I would love to know what is signified by the last 3 digits in the numbers below. Also, does anyone have other suggestions for detecting abnormalities?
>
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136677.2019923.15513.983
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136678.2019923.15513.985
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136679.2019923.15513.985
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136680.2019923.15513.985
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136681.2019923.15513.986
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136682.2019923.15513.986
> 136683 Deleted
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136684.2019923.15513.986
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136685.2019923.15513.986
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136686.2019923.15513.987
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136687.2019923.15513.987
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136688.2019923.15513.987
> 136689 Deleted
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136690.2019923.15513.988
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136691.2019923.15513.988
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136692.2019923.15513.988
> 136693 Deleted
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136694.2019923.15513.989
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136695.2019923.15513.989
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136696.2019923.15513.989
> 136697 Deleted
> 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136698.2019923.15513.990
>
> Thx
> -Travis

Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.

<139cbe07-5519-4cfe-b672-eed4130ed97cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.
From: david.gobbi@gmail.com (David Gobbi)
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 by: David Gobbi - Mon, 8 May 2023 12:51 UTC

Just to add, the filenames on the CD don't have any meaning either, except
that they act as identifiers.

https://dicom.nema.org/medical/dicom/current/output/chtml/part10/sect_8.2.html

It's the DICOMDIR file on the CD that describes the organizational structure
of the files on the CD. The DICOMDIR is, itself, a special DICOM file and can
be dumped if you want to see how instances map to filenames.

David

On Monday, 8 May 2023 at 06:09:57 UTC-6, Jim Irrer wrote:
> Travis -
>
> They do not mean anything. The point of a UID is to be
> unique, and nothing else. When one is generated, the implementer
> starts with a prefix, but is free to choose the digits that
> follow, as long as they are unique. Implementations often use
> MAC addresses, current time, and incrementing numbers to make
> them unique, so there may be some apparent patterns for
> images from a given imaging machine, but the pattern can
> not be relied upon.
>
> I would recommend using (0008,0018) UI SOPInstanceUID as
> a test for uniqueness.
>
> From the spec:
>
> https://dicom.nema.org/medical/dicom/current/output/chtml/part05/chapter_9.html
>
> Although a specific implementation may choose some
> particular structure for its generated UIDs, it should
> never assume that a UID carries any semantics. Thus, a
> UID shall not be "parsed" to find a particular value or
> component. Component definition (for the suffix) is
> implementation specific and may change as long as
> uniqueness is maintained. Parsing UIDs may jeopardize
> the ability to inter-operate as implementations evolve.
>
>
> In my experience neither Accession (0008,0050) and
> Instance Number (0020,0013) are reliably unique, though
> in some cases they could be.
>
> Hope this helps - Jim
> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 11:33:17 AM UTC-4, Travis Creighton wrote:
> > I am researching ways to detect missing/deleted records for a given Accession (0008,0050). I've been using Instance Number (0020,0013) but was wondering if there are other attributes that could be used. Noticing the sequenced filenames on a CD not corresponding to the same sequential passage of time according to Acquisition DateTime (0008,002A) put me on this trek. I can understand files missing from within the sequence but not the reordering of file sequences such that time is not linear with the sequence.
> >
> > The below shows what I have found using the above attributes.
> >
> > I would love to know what is signified by the last 3 digits in the numbers below. Also, does anyone have other suggestions for detecting abnormalities?
> >
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136677.2019923.15513.983
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136678.2019923.15513.985
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136679.2019923.15513.985
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136680.2019923.15513.985
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136681.2019923.15513.986
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136682.2019923.15513.986
> > 136683 Deleted
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136684.2019923.15513.986
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136685.2019923.15513.986
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136686.2019923.15513.987
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136687.2019923.15513.987
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136688.2019923.15513.987
> > 136689 Deleted
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136690.2019923.15513.988
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136691.2019923.15513.988
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136692.2019923.15513.988
> > 136693 Deleted
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136694.2019923.15513.989
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136695.2019923.15513.989
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136696.2019923.15513.989
> > 136697 Deleted
> > 1.2.840.113663.1500.1.451719595.20.136698.2019923.15513.990
> >
> > Thx
> > -Travis

Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.

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Subject: Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.
From: otechimg@gmail.com (Herman Oosterwijk)
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 by: Herman Oosterwijk - Mon, 8 May 2023 15:15 UTC

Sometimes the DICOM conformance statement will tell you what algorithm they use for creating the UID's, you might want to check that.

Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.

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Subject: Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.
From: jimirrer@gmail.com (Jim Irrer)
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 by: Jim Irrer - Tue, 9 May 2023 10:39 UTC

Correcting myself, I forgot the 'not' and meant to say:

In my experience neither Accession (0008,0050) and
Instance Number (0020,0013) are not reliably unique, though
in some cases they could be.

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 11:15:04 AM UTC-4, Herman Oosterwijk wrote:
> Sometimes the DICOM conformance statement will tell you what algorithm they use for creating the UID's, you might want to check that.

Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.

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Newsgroups: comp.protocols.dicom
Date: Tue, 9 May 2023 21:04:19 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.
From: performingsolutions@gmail.com (Travis Creighton)
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 by: Travis Creighton - Wed, 10 May 2023 04:04 UTC

I want to thank you all for your information and time to do so. I checked (0008,0018) and it is the same value as (0002,0003). Guess I was lucky but I'll adjust to the recommendations. I was completely unaware of DICOMDIR's role. Thank you!!

Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.

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Newsgroups: comp.protocols.dicom
Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 01:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Detection of missing/deleted records.
From: email@antoniomagni.com (Toni Magni)
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 by: Toni Magni - Wed, 10 May 2023 08:43 UTC

Indeed. For example, I like to use the hash of the image pixel data (or of the original non-DICOM file).

On Monday, 8 May 2023 at 17:15:04 UTC+2, Herman Oosterwijk wrote:
> Sometimes the DICOM conformance statement will tell you what algorithm they use for creating the UID's, you might want to check that.

1
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