UEFA and CONMEBOL have announced the first edition of their new Club Challenge will take place on 19th July between Sevilla of Spain and Independiente del Valle of Ecuador. This pits the winners of the 2022/23 Europa League against the winners of the 2022 Copa Sudamericana.

The match will be played at Sevilla's Ramón Sánchez-Pizjuán Stadium. If there is no winner after 90 minutes a penalty shootout will determine the winner.

The inaugural edition will be named “Antonio Puerta XII” in honour of the former Sevilla player, who died in 2007 aged 22 following a cardiac arrest.

It seems UEFA and CONMEBOL continue to collaborate.

RM

On Saturday, July 8, 2023 at 10:39:36 PM UTC+1, Real Mardin wrote:
> UEFA and CONMEBOL have announced the first edition of their new Club Challenge will take place on 19th July between Sevilla of Spain and Independiente del Valle of Ecuador. This pits the winners of the 2022/23 Europa League against the winners of the 2022 Copa Sudamericana.
>
> The match will be played at Sevilla's Ramón Sánchez-Pizjuán Stadium. If there is no winner after 90 minutes a penalty shootout will determine the winner.
>
> The inaugural edition will be named “Antonio Puerta XII” in honour of the former Sevilla player, who died in 2007 aged 22 following a cardiac arrest.
>
> It seems UEFA and CONMEBOL continue to collaborate.
>
>
> RM

Sounds interesting. Why do Sevilla get home advantage though?

Real Mardin escreveu:
> UEFA and CONMEBOL have announced the first edition of their new Club
> Challenge will take place on 19th July between Sevilla of Spain and
> Independiente del Valle of Ecuador. This pits the winners of the 2022/23
> Europa League against the winners of the 2022 Copa Sudamericana.

Interesting. A kind of a junior version of the old Intercontinental Cup.
A friend of mine told me that they thought of coming up with this in the
1990's, when Conmebol created its UEFA Cup equivalent (Copa Conmebol, the
old version of the present-day Copa Sudamericana). The first fixture was
going to be Atlético Mineiro vs Ajax, followed by Botafogo vs Juventus,
but these games never were actually played.

Although for this present one, the European cup winner in season Y/Y+1
faces the South American cup winner of season Y. In the old IC model it
would have been the SA cup winner of season Y+1 (for example, the European
Champions Cup winner of 1991/92 played the Libertadores winner of 1992,
rather than the 1991 one).

> The match will be played at Sevilla's Ramón Sánchez-Pizjuán Stadium. If
> there is no winner after 90 minutes a penalty shootout will determine the
> winner.
>
> The inaugural edition will be named “Antonio Puerta XII” in honour of the
> former Sevilla player, who died in 2007 aged 22 following a cardiac arrest.
>
> It seems UEFA and CONMEBOL continue to collaborate.

Out of curiosity, let's have a look at what would this Club Challenge have
looked like in the past (using the old IC model as described above, European
cup winner of Y/Y+1 vs South American cup winner of Y+1):

1992: Ajax vs Atlético Mineiro
1993: Juventus vs Botafogo
1994: Internazionale vs São Paulo
1995: Parma vs Rosario Central
1996: Bayern Munich vs Lanús
1997: Schalke 04 vs Atlético Mineiro
1998: Internazionale vs Santos
1999: Parma vs Talleres

Copa Conmebol ended in 1999, Copa Sudamericana took over in 2002. Galatasaray
and Liverpool winners by default? :-) If you picked Copa Mercosul as a "proxy"
for the secondary South American cup (which it was not meant to be by any
stretch, but at least it had a good level of play generally), you'd have:

2000: Galatasaray vs Vasco da Gama
2001: Liverpool vs San Lorenzo

If one prefers to pick Copa Merconorte winners instead (and why on earth would
anyone want to do that?), it's Atlético Nacional and Millonarios instead of Vasco
and San Lorenzo. Resuming normal service, we'd have:

2002: Feyenoord vs San Lorenzo
2003: Porto vs Cienciano
2004: Valencia vs Boca Juniors
2005: CSKA Moscow vs Boca Juniors
2006: Sevilla vs Pachuca
2007: Sevilla vs Arsenal de Sarandí
2008: Zenit St. Petersburg vs Internacional
2009: Shaktar Donetsk vs LDU Quito
2010: Atlético Madrid vs Independiente
2011: Porto vs Universidad de Chile
2012: Atlético Madrid vs São Paulo
2013: Chelsea vs Lanús
2014: Sevilla vs River Plate
2015: Sevilla vs Independiente Santa Fe
2016: Sevilla vs Chapecoense
2017: Manchester United vs Independiente
2018: Atlético Madrid vs Athletico Paranaense
2019: Chelsea vs Independiente del Valle
2020: Sevilla vs Defensa y Justicia
2021: Villareal vs Athletico Paranaense
2022: Eintracht Frankfurt vs Independiente del Valle

To get Sevilla vs Independiente del Valle, one only needs to switch the UEFA
sides one season upwards in the above list. Ajax and Feyenoord would drop out
and Galatasaray would play Talleres de Córdoba.

Some interesting matchups there, no doubt. Here's a breakdown by country (not
counting 2000 and 2001):

Argentina: 12 apps by 9 clubs - Rosario Central, Lanús (2), Talleres, San Lorenzo,
Boca Juniors (2), Arsenal de Sarandí, Independiente (2), River Plate, Defensa y
Justicia.

Spain: 11 apps by 4 clubs - Valencia, Sevilla (6), Atlético Madrid (3), Villareal.

Brasil: 10 apps by 7 clubs - Atlético Mineiro (2), Botafogo, São Paulo (2), Santos,
Internacional, Chapecoense, Athletico Paranaense (2).

Italy: 5 apps by 3 clubs - Juventus, Internazionale (2), Parma (2).

Germany: 3 apps by 3 clubs - Bayern Munich, Schalke 04, Eintracht Frankfurt..

England: 3 apps by 2 clubs - Chelsea (2), Manchester United.

Ecuador: 3 apps by 2 clubs - LDU Quito, Independiente del Valle (2).

Netherlands: 2 apps by 2 clubs - Ajax, Feyenoord.

Russia: 2 apps by 2 clubs - CSKA Moscow, Zenit St. Petersburg.

Portugal: 2 apps by 1 club - Porto (2).

With 1 app by 1 club: Ukraine (Shaktar Donetsk), Mexico (Pachuca), Peru (Cienciano),
Chile (Universidad de Chile) and Colombia (Independiente Santa Fe).

Depending on how you count things, maybe the Dutch disappear and one adds Turkey
(Galatasaray) and one further app for Sevilla instead.

Best regards,

Lléo

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 5:31:26 PM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
> Real Mardin escreveu:
> > UEFA and CONMEBOL have announced the first edition of their new Club
> > Challenge will take place on 19th July between Sevilla of Spain and
> > Independiente del Valle of Ecuador. This pits the winners of the 2022/23
> > Europa League against the winners of the 2022 Copa Sudamericana.
> Interesting. A kind of a junior version of the old Intercontinental Cup.
> A friend of mine told me that they thought of coming up with this in the
> 1990's, when Conmebol created its UEFA Cup equivalent (Copa Conmebol, the
> old version of the present-day Copa Sudamericana). The first fixture was
> going to be Atlético Mineiro vs Ajax, followed by Botafogo vs Juventus,
> but these games never were actually played.
>
> Although for this present one, the European cup winner in season Y/Y+1
> faces the South American cup winner of season Y. In the old IC model it
> would have been the SA cup winner of season Y+1 (for example, the European
> Champions Cup winner of 1991/92 played the Libertadores winner of 1992,
> rather than the 1991 one).
> > The match will be played at Sevilla's Ramón Sánchez-Pizjuán Stadium. If
> > there is no winner after 90 minutes a penalty shootout will determine the
> > winner.
> >
> > The inaugural edition will be named “Antonio Puerta XII” in honour of the
> > former Sevilla player, who died in 2007 aged 22 following a cardiac arrest.
> >
> > It seems UEFA and CONMEBOL continue to collaborate.
> Out of curiosity, let's have a look at what would this Club Challenge have
> looked like in the past (using the old IC model as described above, European
> cup winner of Y/Y+1 vs South American cup winner of Y+1):
>
> 1992: Ajax vs Atlético Mineiro
> 1993: Juventus vs Botafogo
> 1994: Internazionale vs São Paulo
> 1995: Parma vs Rosario Central
> 1996: Bayern Munich vs Lanús
> 1997: Schalke 04 vs Atlético Mineiro
> 1998: Internazionale vs Santos
> 1999: Parma vs Talleres
>
> Copa Conmebol ended in 1999, Copa Sudamericana took over in 2002. Galatasaray
> and Liverpool winners by default? :-) If you picked Copa Mercosul as a "proxy"
> for the secondary South American cup (which it was not meant to be by any
> stretch, but at least it had a good level of play generally), you'd have:
>
> 2000: Galatasaray vs Vasco da Gama
> 2001: Liverpool vs San Lorenzo
>
> If one prefers to pick Copa Merconorte winners instead (and why on earth would
> anyone want to do that?), it's Atlético Nacional and Millonarios instead of Vasco
> and San Lorenzo. Resuming normal service, we'd have:
>
> 2002: Feyenoord vs San Lorenzo
> 2003: Porto vs Cienciano
> 2004: Valencia vs Boca Juniors
> 2005: CSKA Moscow vs Boca Juniors
> 2006: Sevilla vs Pachuca
> 2007: Sevilla vs Arsenal de Sarandí
> 2008: Zenit St. Petersburg vs Internacional
> 2009: Shaktar Donetsk vs LDU Quito
> 2010: Atlético Madrid vs Independiente
> 2011: Porto vs Universidad de Chile
> 2012: Atlético Madrid vs São Paulo
> 2013: Chelsea vs Lanús
> 2014: Sevilla vs River Plate
> 2015: Sevilla vs Independiente Santa Fe
> 2016: Sevilla vs Chapecoense
> 2017: Manchester United vs Independiente
> 2018: Atlético Madrid vs Athletico Paranaense
> 2019: Chelsea vs Independiente del Valle
> 2020: Sevilla vs Defensa y Justicia
> 2021: Villareal vs Athletico Paranaense
> 2022: Eintracht Frankfurt vs Independiente del Valle
>
> To get Sevilla vs Independiente del Valle, one only needs to switch the UEFA
> sides one season upwards in the above list. Ajax and Feyenoord would drop out
> and Galatasaray would play Talleres de Córdoba.
>
> Some interesting matchups there, no doubt. Here's a breakdown by country (not
> counting 2000 and 2001):
>
> Argentina: 12 apps by 9 clubs - Rosario Central, Lanús (2), Talleres, San Lorenzo,
> Boca Juniors (2), Arsenal de Sarandí, Independiente (2), River Plate, Defensa y
> Justicia.
>
> Spain: 11 apps by 4 clubs - Valencia, Sevilla (6), Atlético Madrid (3), Villareal.
>
> Brasil: 10 apps by 7 clubs - Atlético Mineiro (2), Botafogo, São Paulo (2), Santos,
> Internacional, Chapecoense, Athletico Paranaense (2).
>
> Italy: 5 apps by 3 clubs - Juventus, Internazionale (2), Parma (2).
>
> Germany: 3 apps by 3 clubs - Bayern Munich, Schalke 04, Eintracht Frankfurt.
>
> England: 3 apps by 2 clubs - Chelsea (2), Manchester United.
>
> Ecuador: 3 apps by 2 clubs - LDU Quito, Independiente del Valle (2).
>
> Netherlands: 2 apps by 2 clubs - Ajax, Feyenoord.
>
> Russia: 2 apps by 2 clubs - CSKA Moscow, Zenit St. Petersburg.
>
> Portugal: 2 apps by 1 club - Porto (2).
>
> With 1 app by 1 club: Ukraine (Shaktar Donetsk), Mexico (Pachuca), Peru (Cienciano),
> Chile (Universidad de Chile) and Colombia (Independiente Santa Fe).
>
> Depending on how you count things, maybe the Dutch disappear and one adds Turkey
> (Galatasaray) and one further app for Sevilla instead.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lléo

Interesting look at what might have been. Some good looking matches there!

RM

On 2023-07-12 10:31, Lléo wrote:
> Real Mardin escreveu:
>> UEFA and CONMEBOL have announced the first edition of their new Club
>> Challenge will take place on 19th July between Sevilla of Spain and
>> Independiente del Valle of Ecuador. This pits the winners of the 2022/23
>> Europa League against the winners of the 2022 Copa Sudamericana.
>
>
> Interesting. A kind of a junior version of the old Intercontinental Cup.
> A friend of mine told me that they thought of coming up with this in the
> 1990's, when Conmebol created its UEFA Cup equivalent (Copa Conmebol, the
> old version of the present-day Copa Sudamericana). The first fixture was
> going to be Atlético Mineiro vs Ajax, followed by Botafogo vs Juventus,
> but these games never were actually played.
>
> Although for this present one, the European cup winner in season Y/Y+1
> faces the South American cup winner of season Y. In the old IC model it
> would have been the SA cup winner of season Y+1 (for example, the European
> Champions Cup winner of 1991/92 played the Libertadores winner of 1992,
> rather than the 1991 one).
>
>
>> The match will be played at Sevilla's Ramón Sánchez-Pizjuán Stadium. If
>> there is no winner after 90 minutes a penalty shootout will determine the
>> winner.
>>
>> The inaugural edition will be named “Antonio Puerta XII” in honour of the
>> former Sevilla player, who died in 2007 aged 22 following a cardiac arrest.
>>
>> It seems UEFA and CONMEBOL continue to collaborate.
>
>
> Out of curiosity, let's have a look at what would this Club Challenge have
> looked like in the past (using the old IC model as described above, European
> cup winner of Y/Y+1 vs South American cup winner of Y+1):
>

Snip....

Curious as to why you chose UEFA Cup/Europa league for this, when in
theory the cup winners' cup was the more prestigious competition until
it ended. There was certainly a legitimate argument that the UEFA cup
was harder to win, even back in the 80s. And after the "Champions
league" started allowing multiple entries from the higher ranked
nations, the CWC lasted only briefly.

MH escreveu:
> On 2023-07-12 10:31, Lléo wrote:
> > Real Mardin escreveu:
> >> UEFA and CONMEBOL have announced the first edition of their new Club
> >> Challenge will take place on 19th July between Sevilla of Spain and
> >> Independiente del Valle of Ecuador. This pits the winners of the 2022/23
> >> Europa League against the winners of the 2022 Copa Sudamericana.
> >
> >
> > Interesting. A kind of a junior version of the old Intercontinental Cup..
> > A friend of mine told me that they thought of coming up with this in the
> > 1990's, when Conmebol created its UEFA Cup equivalent (Copa Conmebol, the
> > old version of the present-day Copa Sudamericana). The first fixture was
> > going to be Atlético Mineiro vs Ajax, followed by Botafogo vs Juventus,
> > but these games never were actually played.
> >
> > Although for this present one, the European cup winner in season Y/Y+1
> > faces the South American cup winner of season Y. In the old IC model it
> > would have been the SA cup winner of season Y+1 (for example, the European
> > Champions Cup winner of 1991/92 played the Libertadores winner of 1992,
> > rather than the 1991 one).
> >
> >
> >> The match will be played at Sevilla's Ramón Sánchez-Pizjuán Stadium. If
> >> there is no winner after 90 minutes a penalty shootout will determine the
> >> winner.
> >>
> >> The inaugural edition will be named “Antonio Puerta XII” in honour of the
> >> former Sevilla player, who died in 2007 aged 22 following a cardiac arrest.
> >>
> >> It seems UEFA and CONMEBOL continue to collaborate.
> >
> >
> > Out of curiosity, let's have a look at what would this Club Challenge have
> > looked like in the past (using the old IC model as described above, European
> > cup winner of Y/Y+1 vs South American cup winner of Y+1):
> >
> Snip....
>
> Curious as to why you chose UEFA Cup/Europa league for this,

I was just following the Europa League vs Copa Sudamericana winners model
of this new Club Challenge cup, using the epoch's equivalent cups (ie, both
were tournaments for the teams that finished just below the qualifying
threshold for each confederations' main cup).

> when in theory the cup winners' cup was the more prestigious competition
> until it ended.

Btw, how prestigious was the Cup Winners' Cup on its day? Was it seen as a
big achievement?

> There was certainly a legitimate argument that the UEFA
> cup was harder to win, even back in the 80s. And after the "Champions
> league" started allowing multiple entries from the higher ranked
> nations, the CWC lasted only briefly.

There has never really been a counterpart for the Cup Winners' Cup in South
America, because national cups are relatively recent in the local football
landscape. Over the 20th century, they were held with some consistency in
Brasil (and even then with a big gap between 1968 and 1989), Chile, Bolivia
and Venezuela and, out of those, only Brasil would send its winner to a
continental competition (in this case, Copa Libertadores).

The other countries either held cups very sporadically or did not do it at
all. They gradually adopted them in the 2000's and 2010's, though. Chile
had a gap between 2000 and 2008, but hold it regularly again since, Colombia
launched theirs in 2008, Argentina in 2011, Ecuador and Paraguay in 2018,
Peru in 2019 and finally Uruguay in 2022.

The one country whose cup status seems uncertain (at least to me) is Bolivia,
who held it from 1976 to 2011 (changing its name to "Copa Aerosur" in 2003)..
They were supposed to resume it in 2022, but apparently it didn't work, I have
no idea why.

Also, at first, most of these cups created in the 21st century would qualify
their winners to Copa Sudamericana (just like the European national cups do
nowadays), but they're gradually changing that, and I think nowadays most of
them grant a spot in Copa Libertadores instead. I guess that's fair enough, at
least they're rewarding an actual cup winner rather than a 4th place league
finisher, plus it does add more attraction and weight to the national cups.

Best regards,

Lléo

On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 10:17:02 AM UTC-4, Lléo wrote:

> > when in theory the cup winners' cup was the more prestigious competition
> > until it ended.
> Btw, how prestigious was the Cup Winners' Cup on its day? Was it seen as a
> big achievement?

It was at least as prestigious as the UEFA Cup (but less than the European/Champions' Cup (*)), even though probably less difficult to win. Why more prestigious?
- It started before the UEFA Cup, so more seniority
- The final was played in a single match on a neutral venue, like the European/Champions' Cup. The UEFA Cup was a two-legged tie.
- You will still find people referring to the three cups as EC1 (European/Champions' Cup), EC2 (Cup Winners' Cup) and EC3.
- The European SuperCup (when it was played), was contested between the winners of EC1 and EC2.

As for difficulty of winning it -- well, given that there is more variability in the winners of domestic Cup, plus only one entrant from the top leagues, the pool of entrants in the CWC was typically a bit weaker than that of the UEFA Cup. Plus, the UEFA Cup had an extra round of matches (there were typically 64 entrants in the competition proper, versus 32 in the EC and CWC).

Here are some average Club Elo ratings in the two competitions for selected years:

1973/74
EC 1533 (semifinalists: Bayern, Atletico Madrid, Ujpest, Celtic)
CWC 1418 (semifinalists: Magdeburg, Milan, Sporting, Gladbach)
UEFA 1520 (semifinalists: Feyenoord, Tottenham, Lokomotive Leipzig, Stuttgart)

1983/1984
EC 1520 (Liverpool, Roma, Dinamo Bucarest, Dundee United)
CWC 1434 (Juventus, Manchester United, Porto, Aberdeen)
UEFA 1546 (Tottenham, Anderlecht, Hajduk Split, Nottingham Forest)

(I would argue that the pool of semifinalists in the CWC here was the most prestigious)

1993/1994
EC 1469 (Milan, Barcelona [Monaco, Porto]) <-- this had already become the Champions League, and there were no semifinals. Monaco and Porto finished second in the group determining access to the final)
CWC 1420 (Arsenal, Parma, Paris St. Germain, Benfica)
UEFA 1526 (Internazionale, Austria Salzburg, Cagliari, Karlsruhe) <--despite the high average rating, what a peculiar set of semifinalists!)

So the average entrant in the UEFA Cup was about as good as the average entrant in the EC1, and a bit better than the average entrant in the CWC. Of course, the top teams in EC1 were better than the top teams in CWC and UEFA

Lléo wrote:

> MH escreveu:
>
> > when in theory the cup winners' cup was the more prestigious
> > competition until it ended.
>
> Btw, how prestigious was the Cup Winners' Cup on its day? Was it seen
> as a big achievement?

Reasonably, yes. The European Cup-Winners Cup was - when in existence -
seen as the 'second' European trophy, behind the European Cup... with the
UEFA Cup 3rd in prestige.

On 2023-07-14 10:24, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 10:17:02 AM UTC-4, Lléo wrote:
>
>>> when in theory the cup winners' cup was the more prestigious competition
>>> until it ended.
>> Btw, how prestigious was the Cup Winners' Cup on its day? Was it seen as a
>> big achievement?
>
> It was at least as prestigious as the UEFA Cup (but less than the European/Champions' Cup (*)), even though probably less difficult to win. Why more prestigious?
> - It started before the UEFA Cup, so more seniority
> - The final was played in a single match on a neutral venue, like the European/Champions' Cup. The UEFA Cup was a two-legged tie.
> - You will still find people referring to the three cups as EC1 (European/Champions' Cup), EC2 (Cup Winners' Cup) and EC3.
> - The European SuperCup (when it was played), was contested between the winners of EC1 and EC2.
>
> As for difficulty of winning it -- well, given that there is more variability in the winners of domestic Cup, plus only one entrant from the top leagues, the pool of entrants in the CWC was typically a bit weaker than that of the UEFA Cup. Plus, the UEFA Cup had an extra round of matches (there were typically 64 entrants in the competition proper, versus 32 in the EC and CWC).
>

It was certainly typically weaker than the EC1, and I would say usually
than the EC3 once that gathered some steam from its origins in the Fairs
Cup. But perhaps more significantly it was much more variable from year
to year. Winning the league and cup double was not all that common from
1960-1990 in most countries but it did happen, and when it did the
losing team in the cup final got to compete in the CWC - and could often
be quite a weak team, perhaps not even in the top division. And on
occasion a team outside the top tier would win the cup, at least in some
countries. On the other hand you could get a year where several teams
from stronger nations, that were currently in the process of running
away with their own league, happened to be in the CWC.