On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 10:05:08 PM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 4:56:13 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
> > On 2023-07-05 04:01, Mark wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:57:56 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
> > >
> > >> If this tournament has shown anything, it is how toothless and clueless
> > >> the Canada B team is. We are without Davies, David, Larin, Eustaquio,
> > >> Buchanan, Johnston, Adekugbe, Hutchinson (retired), Kaye and Koné. Only
> > >> Miller. Laryea and Vitoria are left among those you might consider first
> > >> choice or thereabouts.
> > >>
> > >> We clearly have nowhere near the depth of Mexico and the US, who both
> > >> also left a lot of their more well known names off the roster.
> > >
> > > Why have the USA, Mexico and Canada not picked their best players?
> > Because they all just played in the CONCACAF nations' league semifinals
> > and finals, and after a long season including the world cup, need a rest
> > ?
>
> You know CONCACAF better than me, but as an outsider I find this hard to comprehend. This is your confederation's championship, for crying out loud, surely
> you rest your best players in the Nations League and pick your strongest squad for the Gold Cup?
>
> It's hard to imagine European teams going all out to win the Nations League then picking under strength teams for the European Championship?

For once, neither MLS nor Liga MX interrupt their league schedules for the tournament.

Ciao,
Werner

Werner Pichler escreveu:
> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 10:05:08 PM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
> > You know CONCACAF better than me, but as an outsider I find this hard to
> > comprehend. This is your confederation's championship, for crying out loud,
> > surely you rest your best players in the Nations League and pick your strongest
> > squad for the Gold Cup?
> >
> > It's hard to imagine European teams going all out to win the Nations League
> > then picking under strength teams for the European Championship?
>
> For once, neither MLS nor Liga MX interrupt their league schedules for the tournament.

It used to be the case in the south too, there were many Copa Americas in
the last couple of decades for which the Brazilian league did not interrupt
its schedule. But at least the Brazilian national team is largely foreign
based (though there are players from other South American national teams
playing here as well), so the poor practice had a somewhat limited (however
undesirable) impact.

But in the US and Mexico's cases, it is kinda mind-boggling indeed. Both
sides are largely domestic based, plus there are US-based players in a lot
other teams as well. I gave a cursory glance to the Gold Cup 2023 squads
wikipedia page and stopped counting after 30, plus a few others in the US's
lower leagues as well.

(btw, talking about lower leagues: I just found out that there is a player
from Juventude, Brazilian Serie B, in the Guatemalan squad. Gerardo Gordillo
is out there representing the Brazilian second division in US soil)

Plus, about picking understrength teams: Mexico stopped coming to play
Copa America because they had to pick one of the competitions to field
their main squad, and they chose the Gold Cup. Maybe it was due to
Confederation pressure, but still, that means their usual practice is to
make their main team available to their 'local' event. In this edition's
case, I think MH's points about the players needing a rest after a long
and unusual season (given the World Cup's odd scheduling) are likely the
reasons why there are understrength sides around.

Best regards,

Lléo

On 2023-07-06 00:57, Mark wrote:
> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:15:52 AM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
>> Binder Dundat wrote:
>>>
>>> I think the Nations league has something to do with Qualifying for
>>> Olympics or WC or something?
>> If you are on about the UEFA Nations League, then yes there are paths to
>> qualify for both the European Championships and the FIFA World Cup based
>> on Nations League position, via spots in play-offs. (Not the Olympics
>> though, as that is classed as an under-age tournament.) It's like a
>> back-door for nations that haven't qualified directly.
>
> Did anyone see the match between Costa Rica and Martinique? 6-4! That sounded like an interesting match.
>
> Also, how good are Guatemala?

Not very. Last time they were much good was when Carlos Ruiz was in his
prime. Only made the final stage of CONCACAF world cup qualifying once
in the last 25 plus years, (were in it by luck in the 1990 version),
though they missed out narrowly on a few occasions.

Their performance in recent qualifying and in the Nations' league has
not been great, but they seem to be on an upward trend the last two years.

On 2023-07-05 04:01, Mark wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:57:56 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
>
>> If this tournament has shown anything, it is how toothless and clueless
>> the Canada B team is. We are without Davies, David, Larin, Eustaquio,
>> Buchanan, Johnston, Adekugbe, Hutchinson (retired), Kaye and Koné. Only
>> Miller. Laryea and Vitoria are left among those you might consider first
>> choice or thereabouts.
>>
>> We clearly have nowhere near the depth of Mexico and the US, who both
>> also left a lot of their more well known names off the roster.
>
> Why have the USA, Mexico and Canada not picked their best players?

This has also happened frequently in the Copa America in the past, where
teams have often sent inexperienced squads and left out their best
players. Eg. it is pretty hard to argue that Argentina's squad in 1997
Copa America (in Bolivia) was anything close to their best, with no
Batistuta, Balbo, Ortega, Ayala, Zanetti, Claudio Lopez, Simeone, Veron,
Crespo, Sensini, Chamot etc.

I think fewer teams in South America are doing this nowadays, though
Jesus or LLeo could set us straight on that.

On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:

> You know CONCACAF better than me, but as an outsider I find this hard to comprehend. This is your confederation's championship, for crying out loud, surely you rest your best players in the Nations League and pick your strongest squad for the Gold Cup?

> It's hard to imagine European teams going all out to win the Nations League then picking under strength teams for the European Championship?

Historically the post-WC Gold Cup was the "serious" one where everyone sent their top team, but with the late World Cup last year and Copa America 2024 in the US where everyone will surely be sending their top teams, the players need a extended rest at some point.

On 2023-07-07 17:04, JG wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
>
>> You know CONCACAF better than me, but as an outsider I find this hard to comprehend. This is your confederation's championship, for crying out loud, surely you rest your best players in the Nations League and pick your strongest squad for the Gold Cup?
>
>> It's hard to imagine European teams going all out to win the Nations League then picking under strength teams for the European Championship?
>
> Historically the post-WC Gold Cup was the "serious" one where everyone sent their top team, but with the late World Cup last year and Copa America 2024 in the US where everyone will surely be sending their top teams, the players need a extended rest at some point.

Hey, stranger, good to hear from you again. How's Chemistry, or are you
doing something else ?

I am not looking forward to Sunday's game, I think we are in for a
trouncing.

On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 11:31:04 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:
> On 2023-07-07 17:04, JG wrote:

> > Historically the post-WC Gold Cup was the "serious" one where everyone sent their top team, but with the late World Cup last year and Copa America 2024 in the US where everyone will surely be sending their top teams, the players need a extended rest at some point.

> Hey, stranger, good to hear from you again. How's Chemistry, or are you
> doing something else ?

Desk chemistry these days--it'll be 17 years (!!) next week. Can't complain..

> I am not looking forward to Sunday's game, I think we are in for a
> trouncing.

I haven't seen enough of Canada's games to have a strong opinion--the US has had a couple confidence-builders but IDK if we can defend at all.

MH escreveu:
> On 2023-07-05 04:01, Mark wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:57:56 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
> >
> >> If this tournament has shown anything, it is how toothless and clueless
> >> the Canada B team is. We are without Davies, David, Larin, Eustaquio,
> >> Buchanan, Johnston, Adekugbe, Hutchinson (retired), Kaye and Koné.. Only
> >> Miller. Laryea and Vitoria are left among those you might consider first
> >> choice or thereabouts.
> >>
> >> We clearly have nowhere near the depth of Mexico and the US, who both
> >> also left a lot of their more well known names off the roster.
> >
> > Why have the USA, Mexico and Canada not picked their best players?
>
> This has also happened frequently in the Copa America in the past, where
> teams have often sent inexperienced squads and left out their best
> players. Eg. it is pretty hard to argue that Argentina's squad in 1997
> Copa America (in Bolivia) was anything close to their best, with no
> Batistuta, Balbo, Ortega, Ayala, Zanetti, Claudio Lopez, Simeone, Veron,
> Crespo, Sensini, Chamot etc.
>
> I think fewer teams in South America are doing this nowadays, though
> Jesus or LLeo could set us straight on that.

I've looked up some squad lists in Wikipedia and the most "famous" ocurrences
of B teams were Argentina 1997 (as you say), Brasil 2001 and 2004 and Uruguay
2001, plus Argentina not showing up in 2001 (due to security reasons). There
was also Uruguay with a very young team in 1999 (average squad age circa 23),
but that was because they were in complete rebuild mode, having missed WC'1998
and seen many of their old stars retire over that decade.

Beyond the top three, the other Conmebol teams usually bring the best team they
can. I can think of a couple of exceptions, eg Chile 1997, Paraguay 2001, both
missing some of their most important players, but I think that's about it? Maybe
there are other examples, but I think there won't be many.

1997, 2001 and 2004 were editions held during the WCQ, after Copa America went
to a two-year cycle and our WCQ became a double round robin, so I think these
were the main factors. Plus, 2001 also had the security issues in Colombia, which
made Argentina and Canada withdraw before the cup started.

I don't remember understrength teams after it went to a four-year cycle and out
of the WCQ's way (ie, 2007 onwards), with the notable exception of Mexico a couple
of times (2011 and 2015 IIRC?). But then, in these years they also played the Gold
Cup and had to choose one of the cups to send the main team. I think that's why
they haven't been invited since 2015.

Best regards,

Lléo

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 4:50:36 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
> MH escreveu:
> > On 2023-07-05 04:01, Mark wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:57:56 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
> > >
> > >> If this tournament has shown anything, it is how toothless and clueless
> > >> the Canada B team is. We are without Davies, David, Larin, Eustaquio,
> > >> Buchanan, Johnston, Adekugbe, Hutchinson (retired), Kaye and Koné. Only
> > >> Miller. Laryea and Vitoria are left among those you might consider first
> > >> choice or thereabouts.
> > >>
> > >> We clearly have nowhere near the depth of Mexico and the US, who both
> > >> also left a lot of their more well known names off the roster.
> > >
> > > Why have the USA, Mexico and Canada not picked their best players?
> >
> > This has also happened frequently in the Copa America in the past, where
> > teams have often sent inexperienced squads and left out their best
> > players. Eg. it is pretty hard to argue that Argentina's squad in 1997
> > Copa America (in Bolivia) was anything close to their best, with no
> > Batistuta, Balbo, Ortega, Ayala, Zanetti, Claudio Lopez, Simeone, Veron,
> > Crespo, Sensini, Chamot etc.
> >
> > I think fewer teams in South America are doing this nowadays, though
> > Jesus or LLeo could set us straight on that.
> I've looked up some squad lists in Wikipedia and the most "famous" ocurrences
> of B teams were Argentina 1997 (as you say), Brasil 2001 and 2004 and Uruguay
> 2001, plus Argentina not showing up in 2001 (due to security reasons). There
> was also Uruguay with a very young team in 1999 (average squad age circa 23),
> but that was because they were in complete rebuild mode, having missed WC'1998
> and seen many of their old stars retire over that decade.
>
> Beyond the top three, the other Conmebol teams usually bring the best team they
> can. I can think of a couple of exceptions, eg Chile 1997, Paraguay 2001, both
> missing some of their most important players, but I think that's about it? Maybe
> there are other examples, but I think there won't be many.

Surely Brazil a few times between 1949 and 1989?

And I get the impression it's quite common for football clubs to field B teams in their domestic Cups. And judging by their results, Rangers certainly seemed to prioritize winning a record-equalling 9th consecutive Scottish Championship over the Champions League in 1997. (I haven't seen their team line-ups for that year though.)

Maybe we should start a new thread on how often and why teams prioritize one tournament over another.

Surely it's unusual for all the top teams to field a B team for a tournament though, as seems to be the case with this year's Gold Cup?
>
> 1997, 2001 and 2004 were editions held during the WCQ, after Copa America went
> to a two-year cycle and our WCQ became a double round robin, so I think these
> were the main factors. Plus, 2001 also had the security issues in Colombia, which
> made Argentina and Canada withdraw before the cup started.
>
> I don't remember understrength teams after it went to a four-year cycle and out
> of the WCQ's way (ie, 2007 onwards), with the notable exception of Mexico a couple
> of times (2011 and 2015 IIRC?). But then, in these years they also played the Gold
> Cup and had to choose one of the cups to send the main team. I think that's why
> they haven't been invited since 2015.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lléo

Yes I think the reason they changed it to every 4 years was because so many teams were sending B teams to the Copa America in the years before the World Cup.

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 12:18:54 PM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
> On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 4:50:36 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
> > MH escreveu:
> > > On 2023-07-05 04:01, Mark wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:57:56 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> If this tournament has shown anything, it is how toothless and clueless
> > > >> the Canada B team is. We are without Davies, David, Larin, Eustaquio,
> > > >> Buchanan, Johnston, Adekugbe, Hutchinson (retired), Kaye and Koné. Only
> > > >> Miller. Laryea and Vitoria are left among those you might consider first
> > > >> choice or thereabouts.
> > > >>
> > > >> We clearly have nowhere near the depth of Mexico and the US, who both
> > > >> also left a lot of their more well known names off the roster.
> > > >
> > > > Why have the USA, Mexico and Canada not picked their best players?
> > >
> > > This has also happened frequently in the Copa America in the past, where
> > > teams have often sent inexperienced squads and left out their best
> > > players. Eg. it is pretty hard to argue that Argentina's squad in 1997
> > > Copa America (in Bolivia) was anything close to their best, with no
> > > Batistuta, Balbo, Ortega, Ayala, Zanetti, Claudio Lopez, Simeone, Veron,
> > > Crespo, Sensini, Chamot etc.
> > >
> > > I think fewer teams in South America are doing this nowadays, though
> > > Jesus or LLeo could set us straight on that.
> > I've looked up some squad lists in Wikipedia and the most "famous" ocurrences
> > of B teams were Argentina 1997 (as you say), Brasil 2001 and 2004 and Uruguay
> > 2001, plus Argentina not showing up in 2001 (due to security reasons). There
> > was also Uruguay with a very young team in 1999 (average squad age circa 23),
> > but that was because they were in complete rebuild mode, having missed WC'1998
> > and seen many of their old stars retire over that decade.
> >
> > Beyond the top three, the other Conmebol teams usually bring the best team they
> > can. I can think of a couple of exceptions, eg Chile 1997, Paraguay 2001, both
> > missing some of their most important players, but I think that's about it? Maybe
> > there are other examples, but I think there won't be many.
> Surely Brazil a few times between 1949 and 1989?
>
> And I get the impression it's quite common for football clubs to field B teams in their domestic Cups. And judging by their results, Rangers certainly seemed to prioritize winning a record-equalling 9th consecutive Scottish Championship over the Champions League in 1997. (I haven't seen their team line-ups for that year though.)
>
> Maybe we should start a new thread on how often and why teams prioritize one tournament over another.
>
> Surely it's unusual for all the top teams to field a B team for a tournament though, as seems to be the case with this year's Gold Cup?
> >
> > 1997, 2001 and 2004 were editions held during the WCQ, after Copa America went
> > to a two-year cycle and our WCQ became a double round robin, so I think these
> > were the main factors. Plus, 2001 also had the security issues in Colombia, which
> > made Argentina and Canada withdraw before the cup started.
> >
> > I don't remember understrength teams after it went to a four-year cycle and out
> > of the WCQ's way (ie, 2007 onwards), with the notable exception of Mexico a couple
> > of times (2011 and 2015 IIRC?). But then, in these years they also played the Gold
> > Cup and had to choose one of the cups to send the main team. I think that's why
> > they haven't been invited since 2015.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Lléo
> Yes I think the reason they changed it to every 4 years was because so many teams were sending B teams to the Copa America in the years before the World Cup.

Did Costa Rica send a B team aswell? Their results haven't been impressive. Or aren't they as good as they were about 10 or 20 years ago?

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 7:20:22 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:

> Did Costa Rica send a B team aswell? Their results haven't been impressive. Or aren't they as good as they were about 10 or 20 years ago?

Their team in the 2022 cycle was the weakest they've had in a while and Keylor Navas retired from national team play.

On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 6:41:20 AM UTC+1, Michael Falkner wrote:
> USA-Jamaica will play again... for third place.

There isn't a 3rd place play-off anymore. I don't know why.
>
> Panama defeated the Americans in penalties, Mexico beat Jamaica 3-0.
>
> Mike

It'd be good to see 1 of the underdogs win it for once. Go Panama!

Mexico wins the final 1-0.

Sorry bout the other -- I'm surprised there isn't a third-place final, especially with the number of doubleheaders they scheduled anyway!

Mike

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 5:28:11 AM UTC+1, Michael Falkner wrote:
> Mexico wins the final 1-0.
>
> Sorry bout the other -- I'm surprised there isn't a third-place final, especially with the number of doubleheaders they scheduled anyway!
>
> Mike

Let me be the first on rss to congratulate Mexico on winning the 2023 Copa Oro!

I missed the stream on Viaplay so had to wait 5 days for Viaplay to show the repeat of the final on tv hence the belated congratulations. Not sure what everyone else’s excuse is.

The SoFi stadium looked great, I know some doubt has been cast on whether the pitch is wide enough to meet FIFA regulations for hosting World Cup matches but certainly the stadium itself looked like it would make a memorable World Cup venue.

RM