60 years ago today, was the first Bundesliga matchday:
https://www.kicker.de/bundesliga/tabelle/1963-64/1

Fri
Leipzig - Stuttgart
Good one for the algorithm. 3-1

Sat
Freiburg - Werder
No problem. 2-0

Bochum - Dortmund
Ruhrderby. 0-2

Köln - Wolfsburg
2-1

Darmstadt - Union
0-2

Heidenheim - Hoffenheim
First we had the burgs, now we have the heims. 1-2

Gladbach - Leverkusen
1-2

Sun
Mainz - Frankfurt
Not really a derby, part 1. 1-2

Bayern - Augsburg
Not really a derby, part 2. 4-1

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:20:55 PM UTC-4, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
> 60 years ago today, was the first Bundesliga matchday:
> https://www.kicker.de/bundesliga/tabelle/1963-64/1

No Bayern, good times.

One week is too small of a sample to implement the algorithm based on this year's data, so we are still going by 2022-2023.

> Fri
> Leipzig - Stuttgart

3-0

> Sat
> Freiburg - Werder

3-1

> Bochum - Dortmund
1-3

>
> Köln - Wolfsburg
1-2

> Darmstadt - Union
1-3

> Heidenheim - Hoffenheim
Heidenheim are so warm and cuddly. Still, algorithm: 1-2

> Gladbach - Leverkusen
1-2

>
> Sun
> Mainz - Frankfurt
A close one, let's have some fun. 1-1

> Bayern - Augsburg
Not a close one: 5-1

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 6:20:55 PM UTC+2, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
> 60 years ago today, was the first Bundesliga matchday:
> https://www.kicker.de/bundesliga/tabelle/1963-64/1

5 survivors (Köln, Werder, Frankfurt, Dortmund, Stuttgart) out of 16 teams.

I was curious how that number compares to the other big leagues in the same time frame.

Italy - 10/18 (Bologna, Inter, Milan, Fiorentina, Juventus, Torino, Genoa, Lazio, Atalanta, Roma)
England - 13/22 (Liverpool, Man United, Everton, Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal, Burnley, Sheffield United, Nottingham Forest, West Ham, Fulham, Wolverhampton, Aston Villa)
France 9/18 (Monaco, Lens, Lyon, Toulouse, Nantes, Strasbourg, Rennes, Reims, Nice)

> Fri
> Leipzig - Stuttgart
> Good one for the algorithm. 3-1

2-0
> Sat
> Freiburg - Werder
> No problem. 2-0

1-1

> Bochum - Dortmund
> Ruhrderby. 0-2

1-1

> Köln - Wolfsburg
> 2-1

3-1

> Darmstadt - Union
> 0-2

0-1

> Heidenheim - Hoffenheim
> First we had the burgs, now we have the heims. 1-2

2-2

> Gladbach - Leverkusen
> 1-2

3-2

> Sun
> Mainz - Frankfurt
> Not really a derby, part 1. 1-2

4-2

> Bayern - Augsburg
> Not really a derby, part 2. 4-1

3-0

Ciao,
Werner

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:51:53 a.m. UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 6:20:55 PM UTC+2, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
> > 60 years ago today, was the first Bundesliga matchday:
> > https://www.kicker.de/bundesliga/tabelle/1963-64/1
> 5 survivors (Köln, Werder, Frankfurt, Dortmund, Stuttgart) out of 16 teams.
>
> I was curious how that number compares to the other big leagues in the same time frame.
>
> Italy - 10/18 (Bologna, Inter, Milan, Fiorentina, Juventus, Torino, Genoa, Lazio, Atalanta, Roma)
> England - 13/22 (Liverpool, Man United, Everton, Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal, Burnley, Sheffield United, Nottingham Forest, West Ham, Fulham, Wolverhampton, Aston Villa)
> France 9/18 (Monaco, Lens, Lyon, Toulouse, Nantes, Strasbourg, Rennes, Reims, Nice)
> > Fri
> > Leipzig - Stuttgart
> > Good one for the algorithm. 3-1
> 2-0

VfB is the hottest team in football

2-2

> > Sat
> > Freiburg - Werder
> > No problem. 2-0
> 1-1

This is gonna be a bad year for Werder
2-1

> > Bochum - Dortmund
> > Ruhrderby. 0-2
> 1-1

Even the Pretenders should win this
0-2

>
> > Köln - Wolfsburg
> > 2-1
>
> 3-1
3-3

>
> > Darmstadt - Union
> > 0-2
>
> 0-1
1-2

> > Heidenheim - Hoffenheim
> > First we had the burgs, now we have the heims. 1-2
> 2-2

The Hoff is back looking for Freedom
1-2

>
> > Gladbach - Leverkusen
> > 1-2
>
> 3-2
1-2

> > Sun
> > Mainz - Frankfurt
> > Not really a derby, part 1. 1-2
> 4-2

1-3

> > Bayern - Augsburg
> > Not really a derby, part 2. 4-1
> 3-0

5-0

>
>
> Ciao,
> Werner

On 2023-08-24 10:20, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
> 60 years ago today, was the first Bundesliga matchday:
> https://www.kicker.de/bundesliga/tabelle/1963-64/1
>
> Fri
> Leipzig - Stuttgart
> Good one for the algorithm. 3-1

2-1
>
> Sat
> Freiburg - Werder
> No problem. 2-0

1-1

>
> Bochum - Dortmund
> Ruhrderby. 0-2

0-4

>
> Köln - Wolfsburg
> 2-1

2-0

>
> Darmstadt - Union
> 0-2

1-3
>
> Heidenheim - Hoffenheim
> First we had the burgs, now we have the heims. 1-2

0-0

>
> Gladbach - Leverkusen
> 1-2
>

0-2

> Sun
> Mainz - Frankfurt
> Not really a derby, part 1. 1-2
>

0-2

> Bayern - Augsburg
> Not really a derby, part 2. 4-1

3-1

On 2023-08-24 23:51, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 6:20:55 PM UTC+2, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
>> 60 years ago today, was the first Bundesliga matchday:
>> https://www.kicker.de/bundesliga/tabelle/1963-64/1
>
> 5 survivors (Köln, Werder, Frankfurt, Dortmund, Stuttgart) out of 16 teams.

All of whom have been relegated, usually more than once (Dortmund being
the exception ?)

>
> I was curious how that number compares to the other big leagues in the same time frame.
>
> Italy - 10/18 (Bologna, Inter, Milan, Fiorentina, Juventus, Torino, Genoa, Lazio, Atalanta, Roma)

Only Inter and Roma never relegated ? I am not sure about Lazio but have
a vague notion they went down at some point.

> England - 13/22 (Liverpool, Man United, Everton, Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal, Burnley, Sheffield United, Nottingham Forest, West Ham, Fulham, Wolverhampton, Aston Villa)

If I recall correctly only Liverpool, Everton, and Arsenal never
relegated during that period. A lot of those teams spent many years in
lower divisions (more than half of the 60 easily)

> France 9/18 (Monaco, Lens, Lyon, Toulouse, Nantes, Strasbourg, Rennes, Reims, Nice)

I could be out to lunch but I think all of those have relegated at least
once, a couple many times.
>

Spain I think the only unrelegated ones are Real Madrid, Barcelona, and
Athletic Club de Bilbao.

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:04:01 PM UTC+2, MH wrote:
> On 2023-08-24 23:51, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 6:20:55 PM UTC+2, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
> >> 60 years ago today, was the first Bundesliga matchday:
> >> https://www.kicker.de/bundesliga/tabelle/1963-64/1
> >
> > 5 survivors (Köln, Werder, Frankfurt, Dortmund, Stuttgart) out of 16 teams.
>
> All of whom have been relegated, usually more than once (Dortmund being
> the exception ?)

Dortmund have been relegated, in the 70's they played four seasons on the second level.

> > I was curious how that number compares to the other big leagues in the same time frame.
> >
> > Italy - 10/18 (Bologna, Inter, Milan, Fiorentina, Juventus, Torino, Genoa, Lazio, Atalanta, Roma)
>
> Only Inter and Roma never relegated ? I am not sure about Lazio but have
> a vague notion they went down at some point.
>
> > England - 13/22 (Liverpool, Man United, Everton, Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal, Burnley, Sheffield United, Nottingham Forest, West Ham, Fulham,
> > Wolverhampton, Aston Villa)
>
> If I recall correctly only Liverpool, Everton, and Arsenal never
> relegated during that period. A lot of those teams spent many years in
> lower divisions (more than half of the 60 easily)
>
> > France 9/18 (Monaco, Lens, Lyon, Toulouse, Nantes, Strasbourg, Rennes, Reims, Nice)
>
> I could be out to lunch but I think all of those have relegated at least
> once, a couple many times.
>
>
> Spain I think the only unrelegated ones are Real Madrid, Barcelona, and
> Athletic Club de Bilbao.

The full list is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrelegated_association_football_clubs

Ciao,
Werner

On 2023-08-26 13:02, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:04:01 PM UTC+2, MH wrote:
>> On 2023-08-24 23:51, Werner Pichler wrote:
>>> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 6:20:55 PM UTC+2, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
>>>> 60 years ago today, was the first Bundesliga matchday:
>>>> https://www.kicker.de/bundesliga/tabelle/1963-64/1
>>>
>>> 5 survivors (Köln, Werder, Frankfurt, Dortmund, Stuttgart) out of 16 teams.
>>
>> All of whom have been relegated, usually more than once (Dortmund being
>> the exception ?)
>
> Dortmund have been relegated, in the 70's they played four seasons on the second level.

Exception to being relegated more than once, I meant.
>
>>> I was curious how that number compares to the other big leagues in the same time frame.
>>

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 6:35:50 AM UTC+2, MH wrote:
> On 2023-08-26 13:02, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 6:04:01 PM UTC+2, MH wrote:
> >> On 2023-08-24 23:51, Werner Pichler wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 6:20:55 PM UTC+2, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
> >>>> 60 years ago today, was the first Bundesliga matchday:
> >>>> https://www.kicker.de/bundesliga/tabelle/1963-64/1
> >>>
> >>> 5 survivors (Köln, Werder, Frankfurt, Dortmund, Stuttgart) out of 16 teams.
> >>
> >> All of whom have been relegated, usually more than once (Dortmund being
> >> the exception ?)
> >
> > Dortmund have been relegated, in the 70's they played four seasons on the second level.
>
> Exception to being relegated more than once, I meant.

Ah I see. Yes, you're correct.

BTW a far better overview than the Wikipedia link I posted comes from the RSSSF, of course:
https://www.rsssf.org/miscellaneous/coventric.html
but - horribile dictu - the list hasn't been updated for a year and a half.

Ciao,
Werner

On 2023-08-24, Futbolmetrix <daniele.paserman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One week is too small of a sample to implement the algorithm based
> on this year's data, so we are still going by 2022-2023.

What is this? Humans interfering with the machine logic?

Leipzig - Stuttgart 5-1 (14)
Freiburg - Werder 1-0 (13)
Bochum - Dortmund 1-1 (11)
Köln - Wolfsburg 1-2 (8)
Darmstadt - Union 1-4 (23)
Heidenheim - Hoffenheim 2-3 (17)
Gladbach - Leverkusen 0-3 (17)
Mainz - Frankfurt 1-1 (12)
Bayern - Augsburg 3-1 (21)

FM 38
Jesper 26
Binder 22
MH 21
Werner 19
Doc 10

Red Jersey
FM 61
Jesper 49
MH 46
Werner 44
Binder 33
Doc 17

Stage wins
MH 1
FM 1
Werner 1