On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 6:44:00 PM UTC, Lléo wrote:

> Cruzeiro 1-1 Palmeiras
>
> Palestra Italia clash between a relieved Cruzeiro and a Palmeiras side which
> was all but certain to confirm their 12th league title. In the end they could
> even lose, since their two immediate chasers also lost their games.

Cruzeiro got the point they needed to qualify for the Copa Sudamericana.
>
> Bahia 4-1 Atlético Mineiro
>
> Well one definitely couldn't see that one coming. My first impulse was to
> think "gee, thanks for nothing, Galo", but this one turned out to be for
> good in the end.

This one was a surprise! How did that happen!? Why did it turn out for good? Do you not like Santos?

> Santos 1-2 Fortaleza
>
> CBF officially named this season's league "Brasileirão Rei", paying homage to
> Pelé, deceased in the closing days of 2022. His former club, though, was not
> up to the task of honouring the King's name, and was duly relegated for the
> first time in history, at home against a Fortaleza team that had nothing to
> play for.
>
> They would go down with a draw already, but conceded the coup-de-grâce on time
> added on. Their keeper left the net to join the attack, someone misplaced a
> pass in midfield and Lucero shot all the way from there against an empty net.
> Such goals, in Brasil, is usually said to be "the goal Pelé didn't score", due
> to a similar attempt by the King against Czechoslovakia in WC'1970 that missed
> the net by a hair. So, Santos went down because someone scored upon them the goal
> that Pelé never did. Poetic.
>
> The game immediately ended after the goal, as furious Santos fans began to throw
> all kinds of stuff on the pitch. Around the stadium, parked cars and buses were set
> on fire.

And even ambulances apparently! Judging by the fans reaction, maybe they deserved to get relegated!

> Palmarés:
>
> Adjusting the numbers to count Palmeiras' league and São Paulo's cup titles,
> here is what the distribution of national titles now looks like, adopting
> CBF's criteria:
>
> "leagues" = Campeonato Brasileiro (1971-2023) + Taça Brasil (1959-1968) + Torneio RGP (1967-1970)
> "cups" = Copa do Brasil (1989-2023)
>
> 1 Palmeiras 16 (12 leagues, 4 cups)
> 2 Flamengo 11 (7 leagues, 4 cups)
> 3 Corinthians 10 (7 leagues, 3 cups)
> 3 Cruzeiro 10 (4 leagues, 6 cups)
> 5 Santos 9 (8 leagues, 1 cup)
> 6 São Paulo 7 (6 leagues, 1 cup)
> 6 Grêmio 7 (2 leagues, 5 cups)
> 8 Fluminense 5 (4 leagues, 1 cup)
> 8 Vasco da Gama 5 (4 leagues, 1 cup)
> 10 Internacional 4 (3 leagues, 1 cup)
> 10 Atlético Mineiro 4 (2 leagues, 2 cups)
> 12 Bahia 2 (2 leagues)
> 12 Botafogo 2 (2 leagues)

See? I told you Bahia were a top club! They're just as successful as Botafogo. OK, maybe not!

Mark escreveu:
> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 6:44:00 PM UTC, Lléo wrote:
>
> > Cruzeiro 1-1 Palmeiras
> >
> > Palestra Italia clash between a relieved Cruzeiro and a Palmeiras side which
> > was all but certain to confirm their 12th league title. In the end they could
> > even lose, since their two immediate chasers also lost their games.
> Cruzeiro got the point they needed to qualify for the Copa Sudamericana.
> >
> > Bahia 4-1 Atlético Mineiro
> >
> > Well one definitely couldn't see that one coming. My first impulse was to
> > think "gee, thanks for nothing, Galo", but this one turned out to be for
> > good in the end.
>
> This one was a surprise! How did that happen!? Why did it turn out for good?
> Do you not like Santos?

I confess I've been enjoying some schadenfreude for Santos's relegation, yes.
No deep reasons or anything, I never minded Santos all that much. Never really
liked them either, but you have to respect the enormity of their achievements.

In this case, though, it's just due to some provocations of theirs in the
Santos vs Vasco game at Vila Belmiro. As the Vila Belmiro loudspeakers
presented the visitor team, Vasco was described as "the club that most knows
Serie B in Brasil". Okay, nice little jab. During the game, already 3-1 up,
their #10 Soteldo stood with both feet over the ball at some moment in the
second half, so as to provoke their opponents (as if saying "bring them on").
That triggered a minor retaliatory foul and a little brawl, whose only
consequence was to cause us to miss players for the next game due to yellow
card suspensions.

They eventually won 4-1 fair and square (Soteldo himself scored the fourth goal).
The whole thing seemed to be an attempt (a successfull one, as it turned out)
to outpsych a direct opponent in the relegation battle. Not "nice", but fair
enough in a sense (that's the so-called "real world of playing away", I guess).

But the players did not forget that one. So, as Vasco vs Bragantino finished
and news came in that it was Santos that went down, a handful of them took
pictures or filmed themselves standing over the ball and sending the Venezuelan
forward their kindest and most heartfelt regards, while fans in the stands
celebrated singing about Santos going down to Serie B.

There is also some hatred between Vasco and Santos ultras, whose origin lie in
some confrontation sometime in the 1990's, but that's not my thing and I never
really cared about that. As far as I'm concerned, it was their club's and
Soteldo's provocations that caused the outcome to bring me up a smile :-) I
mean, if you dish it out, you got to take it too.

But regardless of all the above, I think I'd prefer to see a Northeast team
staying up in the first division anyway. Not that I was picky, mind you (my
main concern was Vasco avoiding the drop, if it had to be Bahia going down
instead, too bad for them). Plus, Vitória earned promotion, so this way we
get to see the Ba-Vi derby in Serie A next season.

> > Palmarés:
> >
> > Adjusting the numbers to count Palmeiras' league and São Paulo's cup titles,
> > here is what the distribution of national titles now looks like, adopting
> > CBF's criteria:
> >
> > "leagues" = Campeonato Brasileiro (1971-2023) + Taça Brasil (1959-1968) + Torneio RGP (1967-1970)
> > "cups" = Copa do Brasil (1989-2023)
> >
> > 1 Palmeiras 16 (12 leagues, 4 cups)
> > 2 Flamengo 11 (7 leagues, 4 cups)
> > 3 Corinthians 10 (7 leagues, 3 cups)
> > 3 Cruzeiro 10 (4 leagues, 6 cups)
> > 5 Santos 9 (8 leagues, 1 cup)
> > 6 São Paulo 7 (6 leagues, 1 cup)
> > 6 Grêmio 7 (2 leagues, 5 cups)
> > 8 Fluminense 5 (4 leagues, 1 cup)
> > 8 Vasco da Gama 5 (4 leagues, 1 cup)
> > 10 Internacional 4 (3 leagues, 1 cup)
> > 10 Atlético Mineiro 4 (2 leagues, 2 cups)
> > 12 Bahia 2 (2 leagues)
> > 12 Botafogo 2 (2 leagues)
>
> See? I told you Bahia were a top club! They're just as successful as Botafogo.
> OK, maybe not!

Surely there are other metrics/concepts on what makes of a club a "top" one,
beyond silverware? I'll try to think up of something. This might be a nice
idea for a thread.

Best regards,

Lléo