On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:39:48 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
>
>
> Also, following Pelé's death, Reino Börjesson (*04 Feb 1929), Kurt Hamrin (*14 Nov 1934)
> and Mário Zagallo (*09 Aug 1931) are the last players remaining from the 1958 final.

RIP Mário Zagallo, one of the truly greats.

Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.

Ciao,
Werner

On 06/01/2024 16:14, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:39:48 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
>>
>>
>> Also, following Pelé's death, Reino Börjesson (*04 Feb 1929), Kurt Hamrin (*14 Nov 1934)
>> and Mário Zagallo (*09 Aug 1931) are the last players remaining from the 1958 final.
>
> RIP Mário Zagallo, one of the truly greats.

Indeed he was.

As a player he was an all-time great for both Flamengo and Botafogo. His
coaching career largely orbited around three centers: the Brazilian
national team, the Middle East and the city of Rio de Janeiro, in which
he spent almost 100% of his club coaching career in Brasil.

I guess one of his most known characteristics was his self-confidence,
his outspoken nature, and his superstition about 13 being his lucky
number. He could be a big loudmouth when he felt like it, and more than
once his words did come back to bite him. Here's some of his most famous
phrases:

"[The Netherlands] have a good team, but they never really did anything
in the World Cup, and this counts. The Dutch don't worry me. I'm
thinking about the final against Germany", before Netherlands 2-0 Brasil
in 1974.

(before that game he also said something along the lines of the Dutch
team being all flash and no substance, but I have absolutely no idea how
to translate "tico-tico no fubá" to English or anything else, sorry)

"We were beaten by a great team", after that same game.

"I won for the first time in 58. Five plus eight is thirteen. I'll win
again in 94", before the 1994 World Cup Final.

"You'll have to swallow me", shouted onto a live TV camera upon winning
Copa America 1997, Brasil's first ever away from home. Zagallo at that
point was being heavily criticised by the Brazilian press and this
outburst was his answer to his critics.

"They couldn't find Saddam Hussein or Bin Laden, but they found
Zagallo". In 2003 Brasil was going to play a friendly against Mexico in
Los Angeles, and Zagallo had trouble with LA Airport immigration
officials because he had a Saudi Arabian visa in his passport. Later
"they" (the Americans) would find both Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden,
though not in LA.

" 'Brasil campeão' has 13 letters! 'Argentina vice' has 13 letters too!
I can now die in peace!", ecstatic after winning Copa America 2004 over
the old rival.

There was his famous "airplane celebration", in a friendly against South
Africa in 1996. Phil Masinga and Doctor Khumalo put the hosts 2-0 ahead
in the first half, and their manager Clive Barker celebrated by
imitating an airplane flying around. Apparently he did that often, but
no one told that to Zagallo, who took it as a provocation. Brasil
eventually tied and later Bebeto scored the winner, after which Zagallo
did his own little airplane dance on the Ellis Park pitch, followed by
some of his staff.

And there's this wonderful little anecdote I just found out about. For a
time in the 1970's, Zagallo was apparently hated in Iran. After World
Cup 1974, he left for the Middle East and became manager of Kuwait, his
goal being winning the Asian Cup of 1976, to be held in Iran.

Remember, this was the same Zagallo that had just dissed the Clockwork
Orange of 1974, before being given a reality check by Neeskens and
Cruyff. But he had neither learned nor forgotten anything, and engaged
in trash talking about the Iranians as well.

Of course, Kuwait and Iran had to meet in the final, and a goal by Ali
Parvin separated the two teams, giving a threepeat to the hosts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_AFC_Asian_Cup_final

This yielded Zagallo an image of arrogance in Iran (well, for good
reason I suppose), and they even had a song about it dedicated to him,
as you can see here:

https://twitter.com/_andreyray/status/1744029207942836396

In the above link there is a translation of the lyrics from Persian to
Portuguese. I'll go from there to English (hoping they still make some
sense :-)). They go a bit like this:

"When you played against Iran, you were afraid
In Brazil you were number one and had a lot of trophies
He came from Brazil posing as the win-it-all
He was coaching Kuwait and wanted to beat us
I told you not to come to Iran, because if you did, you'd lose
You said no
Why did you not take my advice?
Did you see what happened?
You came here and lost the game."

Zagallo wasn't entirely off in his trademark optimism, though. That was
the beginning of a Kuwaiti generation that would go on to win the Asian
Cup in 1980 (granted, at home) and then qualify for their only World Cup
ever, in 1982. In both occasions led by Zagallo's successor, Carlos
Alberto Parreira. That may not seem much, but they wouldn't ever repeat
that kind of run again.

Zagallo's Middle East travels would also take him to a stint in Saudi
Arabia, first at Al-Nassr in 1979, then to the national team in the
early 1980's. Later on that decade he would eventually qualify the
United Arab Emirates to the 1990 World Cup. He wouldn't coach on the Cup
itself, though, again replaced by Parreira.

In his club coaching career, the main highlights were the trophies he
won with his playing days' clubs, Botafogo and Flamengo, though he'd
also eventually manage Vasco, Fluminense and Bangu (on their heady days
of the 1980's). He also won a Saudi league title with Al-Nassr, and had
a brief one-season spell in São Paulo, managing Portuguesa.

> Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.

After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of the
following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek.

Best regards,

Lléo

On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
> On 06/01/2024 16:14, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:39:48 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Also, following Pelé's death, Reino Börjesson (*04 Feb 1929), Kurt Hamrin (*14 Nov 1934)
> >> and Mário Zagallo (*09 Aug 1931) are the last players remaining from the 1958 final.
> >
> > RIP Mário Zagallo, one of the truly greats.
> Indeed he was.
>
> As a player he was an all-time great for both Flamengo and Botafogo. His
> coaching career largely orbited around three centers: the Brazilian
> national team, the Middle East and the city of Rio de Janeiro, in which
> he spent almost 100% of his club coaching career in Brasil.
>
> I guess one of his most known characteristics was his self-confidence,
> his outspoken nature, and his superstition about 13 being his lucky
> number. He could be a big loudmouth when he felt like it, and more than
> once his words did come back to bite him. Here's some of his most famous
> phrases:
>
> "[The Netherlands] have a good team, but they never really did anything
> in the World Cup, and this counts. The Dutch don't worry me. I'm
> thinking about the final against Germany", before Netherlands 2-0 Brasil
> in 1974.
>
> (before that game he also said something along the lines of the Dutch
> team being all flash and no substance, but I have absolutely no idea how
> to translate "tico-tico no fubá" to English or anything else, sorry)
>
> "We were beaten by a great team", after that same game.
>
> "I won for the first time in 58. Five plus eight is thirteen. I'll win
> again in 94", before the 1994 World Cup Final.
>
> "You'll have to swallow me", shouted onto a live TV camera upon winning
> Copa America 1997, Brasil's first ever away from home. Zagallo at that
> point was being heavily criticised by the Brazilian press and this
> outburst was his answer to his critics.
>
> "They couldn't find Saddam Hussein or Bin Laden, but they found
> Zagallo". In 2003 Brasil was going to play a friendly against Mexico in
> Los Angeles, and Zagallo had trouble with LA Airport immigration
> officials because he had a Saudi Arabian visa in his passport. Later
> "they" (the Americans) would find both Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden,
> though not in LA.
>
> " 'Brasil campeão' has 13 letters! 'Argentina vice' has 13 letters too!
> I can now die in peace!", ecstatic after winning Copa America 2004 over
> the old rival.
>
> There was his famous "airplane celebration", in a friendly against South
> Africa in 1996. Phil Masinga and Doctor Khumalo put the hosts 2-0 ahead
> in the first half, and their manager Clive Barker celebrated by
> imitating an airplane flying around. Apparently he did that often, but
> no one told that to Zagallo, who took it as a provocation. Brasil
> eventually tied and later Bebeto scored the winner, after which Zagallo
> did his own little airplane dance on the Ellis Park pitch, followed by
> some of his staff.
>
> And there's this wonderful little anecdote I just found out about. For a
> time in the 1970's, Zagallo was apparently hated in Iran. After World
> Cup 1974, he left for the Middle East and became manager of Kuwait, his
> goal being winning the Asian Cup of 1976, to be held in Iran.
>
> Remember, this was the same Zagallo that had just dissed the Clockwork
> Orange of 1974, before being given a reality check by Neeskens and
> Cruyff. But he had neither learned nor forgotten anything, and engaged
> in trash talking about the Iranians as well.
>
> Of course, Kuwait and Iran had to meet in the final, and a goal by Ali
> Parvin separated the two teams, giving a threepeat to the hosts.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_AFC_Asian_Cup_final
>
> This yielded Zagallo an image of arrogance in Iran (well, for good
> reason I suppose), and they even had a song about it dedicated to him,
> as you can see here:
>
> https://twitter.com/_andreyray/status/1744029207942836396
>
> In the above link there is a translation of the lyrics from Persian to
> Portuguese. I'll go from there to English (hoping they still make some
> sense :-)). They go a bit like this:
>
> "When you played against Iran, you were afraid
> In Brazil you were number one and had a lot of trophies
> He came from Brazil posing as the win-it-all
> He was coaching Kuwait and wanted to beat us
> I told you not to come to Iran, because if you did, you'd lose
> You said no
> Why did you not take my advice?
> Did you see what happened?
> You came here and lost the game."
>
> Zagallo wasn't entirely off in his trademark optimism, though. That was
> the beginning of a Kuwaiti generation that would go on to win the Asian
> Cup in 1980 (granted, at home) and then qualify for their only World Cup
> ever, in 1982. In both occasions led by Zagallo's successor, Carlos
> Alberto Parreira. That may not seem much, but they wouldn't ever repeat
> that kind of run again.
>
> Zagallo's Middle East travels would also take him to a stint in Saudi
> Arabia, first at Al-Nassr in 1979, then to the national team in the
> early 1980's. Later on that decade he would eventually qualify the
> United Arab Emirates to the 1990 World Cup. He wouldn't coach on the Cup
> itself, though, again replaced by Parreira.
>
> In his club coaching career, the main highlights were the trophies he
> won with his playing days' clubs, Botafogo and Flamengo, though he'd
> also eventually manage Vasco, Fluminense and Bangu (on their heady days
> of the 1980's). He also won a Saudi league title with Al-Nassr, and had
> a brief one-season spell in São Paulo, managing Portuguesa.

Thanks for those reminiscences!

> > Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.
>
> After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of the
> following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek.

What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side.
On the other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still alive - Beckenbauer (78),
Weber (79), Overath (80), Held (81), Schnellinger (84), and Schulz (85)
Ciao,
Werner

On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
> >
> > > Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.
> >
> > After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of the
> > following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek.
> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side.
>
> On the other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still alive - Beckenbauer (78),

Goddammit

> Weber (79), Overath (80), Held (81), Schnellinger (84), and Schulz (85)
>
> Ciao,
> Werner

On 08/01/2024 05:32, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
>> On 06/01/2024 16:14, Werner Pichler wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:39:48 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, following Pelé's death, Reino Börjesson (*04 Feb 1929), Kurt Hamrin (*14 Nov 1934)
>>>> and Mário Zagallo (*09 Aug 1931) are the last players remaining from the 1958 final.
>>>
>>> RIP Mário Zagallo, one of the truly greats.
>> Indeed he was.
>>
>> As a player he was an all-time great for both Flamengo and Botafogo. His
>> coaching career largely orbited around three centers: the Brazilian
>> national team, the Middle East and the city of Rio de Janeiro, in which
>> he spent almost 100% of his club coaching career in Brasil.
>>
>> I guess one of his most known characteristics was his self-confidence,
>> his outspoken nature, and his superstition about 13 being his lucky
>> number. He could be a big loudmouth when he felt like it, and more than
>> once his words did come back to bite him. Here's some of his most famous
>> phrases:
>>
>> "[The Netherlands] have a good team, but they never really did anything
>> in the World Cup, and this counts. The Dutch don't worry me. I'm
>> thinking about the final against Germany", before Netherlands 2-0 Brasil
>> in 1974.
>>
>> (before that game he also said something along the lines of the Dutch
>> team being all flash and no substance, but I have absolutely no idea how
>> to translate "tico-tico no fubá" to English or anything else, sorry)
>>
>> "We were beaten by a great team", after that same game.
>>
>> "I won for the first time in 58. Five plus eight is thirteen. I'll win
>> again in 94", before the 1994 World Cup Final.
>>
>> "You'll have to swallow me", shouted onto a live TV camera upon winning
>> Copa America 1997, Brasil's first ever away from home. Zagallo at that
>> point was being heavily criticised by the Brazilian press and this
>> outburst was his answer to his critics.
>>
>> "They couldn't find Saddam Hussein or Bin Laden, but they found
>> Zagallo". In 2003 Brasil was going to play a friendly against Mexico in
>> Los Angeles, and Zagallo had trouble with LA Airport immigration
>> officials because he had a Saudi Arabian visa in his passport. Later
>> "they" (the Americans) would find both Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden,
>> though not in LA.
>>
>> " 'Brasil campeão' has 13 letters! 'Argentina vice' has 13 letters too!
>> I can now die in peace!", ecstatic after winning Copa America 2004 over
>> the old rival.
>>
>> There was his famous "airplane celebration", in a friendly against South
>> Africa in 1996. Phil Masinga and Doctor Khumalo put the hosts 2-0 ahead
>> in the first half, and their manager Clive Barker celebrated by
>> imitating an airplane flying around. Apparently he did that often, but
>> no one told that to Zagallo, who took it as a provocation. Brasil
>> eventually tied and later Bebeto scored the winner, after which Zagallo
>> did his own little airplane dance on the Ellis Park pitch, followed by
>> some of his staff.
>>
>> And there's this wonderful little anecdote I just found out about. For a
>> time in the 1970's, Zagallo was apparently hated in Iran. After World
>> Cup 1974, he left for the Middle East and became manager of Kuwait, his
>> goal being winning the Asian Cup of 1976, to be held in Iran.
>>
>> Remember, this was the same Zagallo that had just dissed the Clockwork
>> Orange of 1974, before being given a reality check by Neeskens and
>> Cruyff. But he had neither learned nor forgotten anything, and engaged
>> in trash talking about the Iranians as well.
>>
>> Of course, Kuwait and Iran had to meet in the final, and a goal by Ali
>> Parvin separated the two teams, giving a threepeat to the hosts.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_AFC_Asian_Cup_final
>>
>> This yielded Zagallo an image of arrogance in Iran (well, for good
>> reason I suppose), and they even had a song about it dedicated to him,
>> as you can see here:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/_andreyray/status/1744029207942836396
>>
>> In the above link there is a translation of the lyrics from Persian to
>> Portuguese. I'll go from there to English (hoping they still make some
>> sense :-)). They go a bit like this:
>>
>> "When you played against Iran, you were afraid
>> In Brazil you were number one and had a lot of trophies
>> He came from Brazil posing as the win-it-all
>> He was coaching Kuwait and wanted to beat us
>> I told you not to come to Iran, because if you did, you'd lose
>> You said no
>> Why did you not take my advice?
>> Did you see what happened?
>> You came here and lost the game."
>>
>> Zagallo wasn't entirely off in his trademark optimism, though. That was
>> the beginning of a Kuwaiti generation that would go on to win the Asian
>> Cup in 1980 (granted, at home) and then qualify for their only World Cup
>> ever, in 1982. In both occasions led by Zagallo's successor, Carlos
>> Alberto Parreira. That may not seem much, but they wouldn't ever repeat
>> that kind of run again.
>>
>> Zagallo's Middle East travels would also take him to a stint in Saudi
>> Arabia, first at Al-Nassr in 1979, then to the national team in the
>> early 1980's. Later on that decade he would eventually qualify the
>> United Arab Emirates to the 1990 World Cup. He wouldn't coach on the Cup
>> itself, though, again replaced by Parreira.
>>
>> In his club coaching career, the main highlights were the trophies he
>> won with his playing days' clubs, Botafogo and Flamengo, though he'd
>> also eventually manage Vasco, Fluminense and Bangu (on their heady days
>> of the 1980's). He also won a Saudi league title with Al-Nassr, and had
>> a brief one-season spell in São Paulo, managing Portuguesa.
>
> Thanks for those reminiscences!
>
>>> Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.
>>
>> After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of the
>> following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek.
>
> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side.
> On the other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still alive - Beckenbauer (78),
> Weber (79), Overath (80), Held (81), Schnellinger (84), and Schulz (85)

Well...

RIP Zagallo and Beckenbauer.
It's been a rough week on the football greats.

Tchau!
Jesus Petry

Werner Pichler wrote:

> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
>> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
>> >
>> > > Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.
>> >
>> > After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of the
>> > following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek.
>> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side.
>>
>> On the other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still alive - Beckenbauer (78),

> Goddammit

First learned the news on this thread, initially quite incredulous. One of the true all-time greats, good that there are two independent threads on RSS commemorating him.

RIP

On 08/01/2024 17.28, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
>> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
>>>
>>>> Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.
>>>
>>> After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of the
>>> following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek.
>> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side.
>>
>> On the other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still alive - Beckenbauer (78),
>
> Goddammit

I had just considered commenting that his health was said to be poor.

2021: Gerd Müller
2022: Uwe Seeler
2024: Franz Beckenbauer

Germany's all-time greats have taken some heavy losses in recent year.

>
>
>> Weber (79), Overath (80), Held (81), Schnellinger (84), and Schulz (85)
>>
>> Ciao,
>> Werner

On 08/01/2024 17.52, Jesus Petry wrote:
>
>  RIP Zagallo and Beckenbauer.
>  It's been a rough week on the football greats.

Didier Deschamps is now the only man alive to have won the World Cup
both as player and manager.

Jesper Lauridsen wrote:

> On 08/01/2024 17.52, Jesus Petry wrote:
> >
> >  RIP Zagallo and Beckenbauer.
> >  It's been a rough week on the football greats.
>
> Didier Deschamps is now the only man alive to have won the World
> Cup both as player and manager.

All that water has clearly helped his health! ;-)

On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 8:31:19 PM UTC+1, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
> On 08/01/2024 17.28, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
> >> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.
> >>>
> >>> After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of the
> >>> following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek.
> >> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still alive - Beckenbauer (78),
> >
> > Goddammit
>
> I had just considered commenting that his health was said to be poor.

Yes, it was known. He lived in Salzburg and used to feature quite prominently at a lot of events
hereabouts, but it's now been a couple of years that he slipped more and more from the limelight,
and his last public appearance was twelve months ago.

Ciao,
Werner

Werner Pichler wrote:

> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 8:31:19 PM UTC+1, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
>> On 08/01/2024 17.28, Werner Pichler wrote:
>> > On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
>> >> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.
>> >>>
>> >>> After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of the
>> >>> following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek.
>> >> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side.
>> >>
>> >> On the other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still alive - Beckenbauer (78),
>> >
>> > Goddammit
>>
>> I had just considered commenting that his health was said to be poor.

> Yes, it was known. He lived in Salzburg and used to feature quite prominently at a lot of events
> hereabouts, but it's now been a couple of years that he slipped more and more from the limelight,
> and his last public appearance was twelve months ago.

RIP Andy Brehme. Second 1990 finalist to pass away (after Diego). Are all the 1994 finalists still OK?

Futbolmetrix wrote:

> RIP Andy Brehme. Second 1990 finalist to pass away (after Diego).

I posted this without checking, but turns out it's correct. On the other hand, I was surprised to find out that Brehme is already the 5th 1986 WC finalist no longer with us (Brown, Cuciuffo, Maradona and Norbert Eder the others).

So, Paolo Rossi, Brown and Brehme, scorers of the opening goals in the 1982, 1986, and 1990 WC finals all passed away before reaching age 65. If I'm Zidane, I start worrying... :-/

On 20.02.2024 14:21, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> Werner Pichler wrote:
>
>> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 8:31:19 PM UTC+1, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
>>> On 08/01/2024 17.28, Werner Pichler wrote: > On Monday, January 8,
>>> 2024 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote: >> On Monday, January
>>> 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote: >>> >>>> Börjesson has died
>>> last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final. >>> >>>
>>> After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of
>>> the >>> following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek. >>
>>> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff Hurst (82) is the last
>>> survivor on the English side. >> >> On the other hand, more than half
>>> of the Western German team is still alive - Beckenbauer (78), > >
>>> Goddammit
>>>
>>> I had just considered commenting that his health was said to be poor.
>
>> Yes, it was known. He lived in Salzburg and used to feature quite
>> prominently at a lot of events
>> hereabouts, but it's now been a couple of years that he slipped more
>> and more from the limelight,
>> and his last public appearance was twelve months ago.
>
>
> RIP Andy Brehme. Second 1990 finalist to pass away (after Diego). Are
> all the 1994 finalists still OK?

I remember a newspaper article several years ago that pointed out how
different the two generations of the 1990 WC the 1996 Euro were
perceived in Germany - while the 96'ers were (and still are) very
prominent in various functions at Bundesliga clubs, or on TV (Sammer,
Bierhoff, Kahn, Bobic, Scholl, Freund, even guys like Helmer and Kuntz),
the 90'ers have become mostly a motley collection of coaching careers
that never really took off, (Häßler, Kohler, Thon, Brehme himself), some
success abroad but none at home (Buchwald and Littbarski in Japan,
Augenthaler partly in Austria), becoming the class clown (Matthäus),
deliberately disappearing from the radar (Illgner, who moved to Florida
and never looked back), and going off the deep end (Berthold).

Notable exceptions being Rudi Völler (although 1990 came at the tail end
of his career), and the two holdovers from the 1990 to the 1996
tournament, Stefan Reuter and Jürgen Klinsmann (although his reputation
has by now taken quite a hit, too).

What's true is that the 1990 World Cup winners never reached the status
in Germany that the 1974 generation did. And the 1996'ers were already
much more 'modern' and media-savvy, which helped them in their
post-playing careers.

Brehme on the other hand was always old-school. RIP.

Ciao,
Werner

On 2024-02-20 13:16, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On 20.02.2024 14:21, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>> Werner Pichler wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 8:31:19 PM UTC+1, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
>>>> On 08/01/2024 17.28, Werner Pichler wrote: > On Monday, January 8,
>>>> 2024 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote: >> On Monday,
>>>> January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote: >>> >>>> Börjesson
>>>> has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that
>>>> final. >>> >>> After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the
>>>> only survivors of the >>> following one (1962) today are Amarildo
>>>> and Josef Jelínek. >> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff
>>>> Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side. >> >> On the
>>>> other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still alive
>>>> - Beckenbauer (78), > > Goddammit
>>>>
>>>> I had just considered commenting that his health was said to be poor.
>>
>>> Yes, it was known. He lived in Salzburg and used to feature quite
>>> prominently at a lot of events
>>> hereabouts, but it's now been a couple of years that he slipped more
>>> and more from the limelight,
>>> and his last public appearance was twelve months ago.
>>
>>
>> RIP Andy Brehme. Second 1990 finalist to pass away (after Diego). Are
>> all the 1994 finalists still OK?
>
>
> I remember a newspaper article several years ago that pointed out how
> different the two generations of the 1990 WC the 1996 Euro were
> perceived in Germany - while the 96'ers were (and still are) very
> prominent in various functions at Bundesliga clubs, or on TV (Sammer,
> Bierhoff, Kahn, Bobic, Scholl, Freund, even guys like Helmer and Kuntz),
> the 90'ers have become mostly a motley collection of coaching careers
> that never really took off, (Häßler, Kohler, Thon, Brehme himself), some
> success abroad but none at home (Buchwald and Littbarski in Japan,
> Augenthaler partly in Austria), becoming the class clown (Matthäus),
> deliberately disappearing from the radar (Illgner, who moved to Florida
> and never looked back), and going off the deep end (Berthold).
>
> Notable exceptions being Rudi Völler (although 1990 came at the tail end
> of his career),

Tail end of his career is a wee bit harsh. Sure, he was 30 at WC1990,
but still a force to be reckoned with for a few years yet. He did not
stop playing until 1996. He played in the 1994 world cup, and had 17
caps and 7 goals after 1990. 20 caps after WC 1990.
75 games and 31 goals in his last two BL seasons.
Also won the CL in 1993, playing 79 minutes in the final.

and the two holdovers from the 1990 to the 1996
> tournament, Stefan Reuter and Jürgen Klinsmann (although his reputation
> has by now taken quite a hit, too).

Wasn't Häßler a holdover too? Andy Möller and Kohler ? I only remember
Germany being extremely depleted by injuries in that tournament, so some
of those guys may not have played much.
>
> What's true is that the 1990 World Cup winners never reached the status
> in Germany that the 1974 generation did. And the 1996'ers were already
> much more 'modern' and media-savvy, which helped them in their
> post-playing careers.
>
> Brehme on the other hand was always old-school. RIP.

Saw him play in person with Kaiserslautern when he was still young.
>
>
>
> Ciao,
> Werner

On 21.02.2024 01:46, MH wrote:
> On 2024-02-20 13:16, Werner Pichler wrote:
>> On 20.02.2024 14:21, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>>> Werner Pichler wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 8:31:19 PM UTC+1, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
>>>>> On 08/01/2024 17.28, Werner Pichler wrote: > On Monday, January 8,
>>>>> 2024 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote: >> On Monday,
>>>>> January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote: >>> >>>> Börjesson
>>>>> has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that
>>>>> final. >>> >>> After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the
>>>>> only survivors of the >>> following one (1962) today are Amarildo
>>>>> and Josef Jelínek. >> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff
>>>>> Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side. >> >> On the
>>>>> other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still
>>>>> alive - Beckenbauer (78), > > Goddammit
>>>>>
>>>>> I had just considered commenting that his health was said to be poor.
>>>
>>>> Yes, it was known. He lived in Salzburg and used to feature quite
>>>> prominently at a lot of events
>>>> hereabouts, but it's now been a couple of years that he slipped more
>>>> and more from the limelight,
>>>> and his last public appearance was twelve months ago.
>>>
>>>
>>> RIP Andy Brehme. Second 1990 finalist to pass away (after Diego). Are
>>> all the 1994 finalists still OK?
>>
>>
>> I remember a newspaper article several years ago that pointed out how
>> different the two generations of the 1990 WC the 1996 Euro were
>> perceived in Germany - while the 96'ers were (and still are) very
>> prominent in various functions at Bundesliga clubs, or on TV (Sammer,
>> Bierhoff, Kahn, Bobic, Scholl, Freund, even guys like Helmer and
>> Kuntz), the 90'ers have become mostly a motley collection of coaching
>> careers that never really took off, (Häßler, Kohler, Thon, Brehme
>> himself), some success abroad but none at home (Buchwald and
>> Littbarski in Japan, Augenthaler partly in Austria), becoming the
>> class clown (Matthäus), deliberately disappearing from the radar
>> (Illgner, who moved to Florida and never looked back), and going off
>> the deep end (Berthold).
>>
>> Notable exceptions being Rudi Völler (although 1990 came at the tail
>> end of his career),
>
> Tail end of his career is a wee bit harsh. Sure, he was 30 at WC1990,
> but still a force to be reckoned with for a few years yet.  He did not
> stop playing until 1996.  He played in the 1994 world cup, and had 17
> caps and 7 goals after 1990.  20 caps after WC 1990.
> 75 games and 31 goals in his last two BL seasons.
> Also won the CL in 1993, playing 79 minutes in the final.

It's about perception. 'Tante Käthe' is 100% an 80's guy, haircut and
everything.

>  and the two holdovers from the 1990 to the 1996
>> tournament, Stefan Reuter and Jürgen Klinsmann (although his
>> reputation has by now taken quite a hit, too).
>
> Wasn't Häßler a holdover too?  Andy Möller and Kohler ?  I only remember
> Germany being extremely depleted by injuries in that tournament, so some
> of those guys may not have played much.

Yeah, Kohler got injured a couple of minutes into the 96 tournament.
I'd like to think that unlike Matthäus Möller always knew he wasn't
really cut out for a coaching or even a punditry career. He's still
known for the malapropisms he coined in interviews during his playing
days, after all.

Ciao,
Werner

On 20/02/2024 17:16, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On 20.02.2024 14:21, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>> RIP Andy Brehme. Second 1990 finalist to pass away (after Diego). Are
>> all the 1994 finalists still OK?
>
>
> I remember a newspaper article several years ago that pointed out how
> different the two generations of the 1990 WC the 1996 Euro were
> perceived in Germany - while the 96'ers were (and still are) very
> prominent in various functions at Bundesliga clubs, or on TV (Sammer,
> Bierhoff, Kahn, Bobic, Scholl, Freund, even guys like Helmer and Kuntz),
> the 90'ers have become mostly a motley collection of coaching careers
> that never really took off, (Häßler, Kohler, Thon, Brehme himself), some
> success abroad but none at home (Buchwald and Littbarski in Japan,
> Augenthaler partly in Austria), becoming the class clown (Matthäus),
> deliberately disappearing from the radar (Illgner, who moved to Florida
> and never looked back), and going off the deep end (Berthold).
>
> Notable exceptions being Rudi Völler (although 1990 came at the tail end
> of his career), and the two holdovers from the 1990 to the 1996
> tournament, Stefan Reuter and Jürgen Klinsmann (although his reputation
> has by now taken quite a hit, too).
>
> What's true is that the 1990 World Cup winners never reached the status
> in Germany that the 1974 generation did. And the 1996'ers were already
> much more 'modern' and media-savvy, which helped them in their
> post-playing careers.

Interesting. I wonder how does 2014 compare with them? (in terms of
status or public perception)

> Brehme on the other hand was always old-school. RIP.

Today I read this interesting story about a showdown between Brehme and
Völler near the end of their careers. The scenario was Bundesliga season
1995/96, Völler playing for Leverkusen and Brehme for Kaiserslautern. As
fate would have it, the two sides faced each other in the last round
battling to avoid the last relegation spot, in what was supposed to be
both Völler's and Brehme's last ever Bundesliga match.

The game ended 1-1, which meant Kaiserlautern took the short end of the
stick and went down for the first time. A week later, Brehme would lift
the DFB-Pokal in Berlin (as Kaiserslautern beat Karlsruher 1-0), but due
to relegation in the league, Brehme wouldn't consider it a crowning
closure for his career, and decided to postpone his retirement plans. He
stayed on for the 2.Bundesliga 1996/97 season and helped the club come
back up as champions

In 1997/98 he no longer had the legs to play a full top level season,
featuring only five games as Kaiserslautern marched on from the depths
of the second division to the Bundesliga title.

I always knew about this unlikely title of theirs (it was fairly famous
at the time), but I never knew about this background, about Brehme's
role in helping their return to the top flight.

I usually would remember Brehme not only as the author of the
title-winning goal of 1990 and a very respectable left-back on his own,
but also as a member of one of the famous Milano trios of that golden
era of Serie A in the early 1990's. Milan had the Dutchmen (Rijkaard,
Gullit and Van Basten), Inter had the Germans (Matthaus, Klinsmann and
Brehme). And now, as a Kaiserslautern hero as well.

May he indeed rest in peace.

Best regards,

Lléo

On 21.02.2024 20:31, Lléo wrote:
> On 20/02/2024 17:16, Werner Pichler wrote:
>> On 20.02.2024 14:21, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>>> RIP Andy Brehme. Second 1990 finalist to pass away (after Diego). Are
>>> all the 1994 finalists still OK?
>>
>>
>> I remember a newspaper article several years ago that pointed out how
>> different the two generations of the 1990 WC the 1996 Euro were
>> perceived in Germany - while the 96'ers were (and still are) very
>> prominent in various functions at Bundesliga clubs, or on TV (Sammer,
>> Bierhoff, Kahn, Bobic, Scholl, Freund, even guys like Helmer and
>> Kuntz), the 90'ers have become mostly a motley collection of coaching
>> careers that never really took off, (Häßler, Kohler, Thon, Brehme
>> himself), some success abroad but none at home (Buchwald and
>> Littbarski in Japan, Augenthaler partly in Austria), becoming the
>> class clown (Matthäus), deliberately disappearing from the radar
>> (Illgner, who moved to Florida and never looked back), and going off
>> the deep end (Berthold).
>>
>> Notable exceptions being Rudi Völler (although 1990 came at the tail
>> end of his career), and the two holdovers from the 1990 to the 1996
>> tournament, Stefan Reuter and Jürgen Klinsmann (although his
>> reputation has by now taken quite a hit, too).
>>
>> What's true is that the 1990 World Cup winners never reached the
>> status in Germany that the 1974 generation did. And the 1996'ers were
>> already much more 'modern' and media-savvy, which helped them in their
>> post-playing careers.
>
>
> Interesting. I wonder how does 2014 compare with them? (in terms of
> status or public perception)

Too early to say (about half of that team is still actively playing),
but e.g. Mertesacker has already become a regular fixture on German TV
while Klose's coaching career has not exactly gone off a great start.

>
>> Brehme on the other hand was always old-school. RIP.
>
>
> Today I read this interesting story about a showdown between Brehme and
> Völler near the end of their careers. The scenario was Bundesliga season
> 1995/96, Völler playing for Leverkusen and Brehme for Kaiserslautern. As
> fate would have it, the two sides faced each other in the last round
> battling to avoid the last relegation spot, in what was supposed to be
> both Völler's and Brehme's last ever Bundesliga match.
>
> The game ended 1-1, which meant Kaiserlautern took the short end of the
> stick and went down for the first time. A week later, Brehme would lift
> the DFB-Pokal in Berlin (as Kaiserslautern beat Karlsruher 1-0), but due
> to relegation in the league, Brehme wouldn't consider it a crowning
> closure for his career, and decided to postpone his retirement plans. He
> stayed on for the 2.Bundesliga 1996/97 season and helped the club come
> back up as champions
>
> In 1997/98 he no longer had the legs to play a full top level season,
> featuring only five games as Kaiserslautern marched on from the depths
> of the second division to the Bundesliga title.
>
> I always knew about this unlikely title of theirs (it was fairly famous
> at the time), but I never knew about this background, about Brehme's
> role in helping their return to the top flight.
>
> I usually would remember Brehme not only as the author of the
> title-winning goal of 1990

and also a highly important one against England in the semis, I feel
that one is often overlooked.

Ciao,
Werner

> and a very respectable left-back on his own,
> but also as a member of one of the famous Milano trios of that golden
> era of Serie A in the early 1990's. Milan had the Dutchmen (Rijkaard,
> Gullit and Van Basten), Inter had the Germans (Matthaus, Klinsmann and
> Brehme). And now, as a Kaiserslautern hero as well.
>
> May he indeed rest in peace.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lléo

Jesper Lauridsen wrote:

> On 08/01/2024 17.28, Werner Pichler wrote:
>> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 9:32:53 AM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
>>> On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 6:12:26 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Börjesson has died last October, so Hamrin is the last survivor from that final.
>>>>
>>>> After a quick glimpse at Wikipedia, I see that the only survivors of the
>>>> following one (1962) today are Amarildo and Josef Jelínek.
>>> What's worse, for the subsequent one Geoff Hurst (82) is the last survivor on the English side.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, more than half of the Western German team is still alive - Beckenbauer (78),
>>
>> Goddammit

> I had just considered commenting that his health was said to be poor.

> 2021: Gerd Müller
> 2022: Uwe Seeler
> 2024: Franz Beckenbauer

> Germany's all-time greats have taken some heavy losses in recent year.

RIP Bernd Hölzenbein, passed away at age 78 after a long illness.

In the last day roughly 1,243 Dutch newspaper articles have popped up containing the term "uitvinder van de schwalbe".

Ciao,
Werner

On 2024-04-17, WernerPichler <wpichler@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
>
>> 2021: Gerd Müller
>> 2022: Uwe Seeler
>> 2024: Franz Beckenbauer
>
>> Germany's all-time greats have taken some heavy losses in recent year.
>
>
> RIP Bernd Hölzenbein, passed away at age 78 after a long illness.

420 games, 3 DFB cups, one UEFA cup for Eintracht Frankfurt.

> In the last day roughly 1,243 Dutch newspaper articles have popped up containing the term "uitvinder van de schwalbe".

In 3 years we have lost 4 German starters from that 1974 final. Two
from Frankfurt, two from Bayern.