On 15.9.2023. 13:45, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> First thing, we have a bipedal creature that pretty much resembles
>> humans, 11.6 mya (Danuvius).
>
> Wiki calls them an Ape, which is simply not true.

Danuvius even has human-like S-curvature of backbone. We are also apes
(though Wikipedia probably keeps quiet about this, :) ).

>> The second thing, we *don't* have chimps 10 mya, chimps are the new
>> development, the original ape was more like humans than like chimps.
>
> No. Apes are secondarily knuckle walkers.
>
> I am fully aware of the ideas circulating on Europe being the origins of
> bipedalism. There's some good arguments, but our ancestors didn't
> come from any inland group.

Australopithecus weren't our ancestors but our "bros" (relatives, :)
). We separated from Australopithecus 8 mya (I am correcting my dates)
It looks like initially we burnt Europe. Then, 8 mya Australopithecus
separated from us to burn Africa, inland. In Europe we were never far
away from sea shore. Continuing to live on a sea shore we developed
language (Australopithecus had only rudimentary language), which allowed
us to start manufacturing tools. With those tools we, finally, were able
to spread all over the world. The problem for us is that we heavily
depend on salting food, so we need to have established salt trade
routes. We probably developed those in Europe, but establishing those
routes in Africa slowed our spreading inland.

Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> Danuvius even has human-like S-curvature of backbone.

I think the good Doctor is correct, Apes probably arose in
some island habitat. It's a known driver of evolution:

Isolation.

You also get "The Founder Effect" going.

Insular Gigantism.

> We are also apes

In which case, Chimps are not. The common ancestor, their
ancestor was an upright walker (not a knuckle walker) that
had a hand more like our own than a Chimps.

So they evolved from us, not the other way around.

Which is why statements like "Humans are Apes" is to stupid.
These distinctions don't exist in nature. It's a convention, and
one that can be changed tomorrow.

> > I am fully aware of the ideas circulating on Europe being the origins of
> > bipedalism. There's some good arguments, but our ancestors didn't
> > come from any inland group.

> Australopithecus weren't our ancestors but our "bros" (relatives, :)

Possibly a child species.

> ). We separated from Australopithecus 8 mya (I am correcting my dates)

More recent, I would argue.

You're talking to someone who places our divergence with Chimps
at 3.7 million years ago.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/728480911625240576

On 15.9.2023. 18:09, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> Danuvius even has human-like S-curvature of backbone.
>
> I think the good Doctor is correct, Apes probably arose in
> some island habitat. It's a known driver of evolution:
>
> Isolation.
>
> You also get "The Founder Effect" going.
>
> Insular Gigantism.

Ah, I see, the bag of magic, this is where magic happens. You know
what, I think that every species arose on some island. Either that, or
UFO was involved. Or God. Who knows? First it was God, then it was UFO,
and now we have island, but this all is a product of magic to us.
Because we don't know a sh.t. Well, guess what, some of us know a sh.t, :) .

>> We are also apes
>
> In which case, Chimps are not. The common ancestor, their
> ancestor was an upright walker (not a knuckle walker) that
> had a hand more like our own than a Chimps.
>
> So they evolved from us, not the other way around.
>
> Which is why statements like "Humans are Apes" is to stupid.
> These distinctions don't exist in nature. It's a convention, and
> one that can be changed tomorrow.

No, we have other characteristics which only apes have. But, of
course, you should know at least the basics to be able to discuss this.

>>> I am fully aware of the ideas circulating on Europe being the origins of
>>> bipedalism. There's some good arguments, but our ancestors didn't
>>> come from any inland group.
>
>> Australopithecus weren't our ancestors but our "bros" (relatives, :)
>
> Possibly a child species.

Possibly, :) .

>> ). We separated from Australopithecus 8 mya (I am correcting my dates)
>
> More recent, I would argue.
>
> You're talking to someone who places our divergence with Chimps
> at 3.7 million years ago.

Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> > I think the good Doctor is correct, Apes probably arose in
> > some island habitat. It's a known driver of evolution:
> >
> > Isolation.
> >
> > You also get "The Founder Effect" going.
> >
> > Insular Gigantism.

> Ah, I see, the bag of magic, this is where magic happens. You know
> what, I think that every species arose on some island. Either that, or
> UFO was involved.

if you want to look ever so slightly less insane, you might want to
avoid referring to isolation and insular gigantism as "Magic" and
equating them to UFOs. Especially when you propose imaginary
humans running around 10 million years ago setting pigs on fire.

If your nurse is handy, have her assist you in a Google search on
"Founder Effect." Read some cites. And actually read them; don't
just move your lips while staring at the screen.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/728480911625240576

On 15.9.2023. 21:37, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>>> I think the good Doctor is correct, Apes probably arose in
>>> some island habitat. It's a known driver of evolution:
>>>
>>> Isolation.
>>>
>>> You also get "The Founder Effect" going.
>>>
>>> Insular Gigantism.
>
>> Ah, I see, the bag of magic, this is where magic happens. You know
>> what, I think that every species arose on some island. Either that, or
>> UFO was involved.
>
> if you want to look ever so slightly less insane, you might want to
> avoid referring to isolation and insular gigantism as "Magic" and
> equating them to UFOs. Especially when you propose imaginary
> humans running around 10 million years ago setting pigs on fire.
>
> If your nurse is handy, have her assist you in a Google search on
> "Founder Effect." Read some cites. And actually read them; don't
> just move your lips while staring at the screen.

I don't have time, have to set pig on fire.

Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> I don't

...have a clue?

Look. isolation is a known engine of evolution, running
around setting pigs on fire is not.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/728584726010560512

On 16.9.2023. 6:57, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> I don't
>
> ...have a clue?
>
> Look. isolation is a known engine of evolution, running
> around setting pigs on fire is not.

Who told you so? You read fairy tales that geneticists write. See
animals on Galapagos, Sulawesi, or penguins on Antarctic. Completely
defenseless. Adaptation is the engine of evolution. Isolation from
elements is quite the opposite of that, no adaptation, no evolution.
Again, dreams, fairy tales. Setting pigs on fire is what feeds me.
Whoever can set everything else on fire, he rules the world. This is the
ultimate power. We changed the environment, made mass extinctions of
other animals, on the whole continents, for god's sake. Australia,
Siberia, Americas, you name it.

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>>> One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
>>> legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
>>> such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like.
>>> This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
>
>> Wrong
>
> It's not wrong at all, you spazz.
>
> From your own cite:
>
> https://scitechdaily.com/images/Triceratops-Had-Upright-Forelimbs.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb2\

The image has two parts - the top part is correct, the bottom
is not (being the old interpretation)

> Compare the legs to that of an elephant or a hippo. No, they
> are not in similar positions at all.

The triceratops legs are underneath the body.

> Oo! What about a rhino?
>
> https://www.alexflemingart.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Photo_1624454402979.jpg
>
> No. You struck out there, too. Nobody is surprised.

Legs just like triceratops - underneath the body. QED

Primum Sapienti wrote:

> > From your own cite:
> >
> > https://scitechdaily.com/images/Triceratops-Had-Upright-Forelimbs.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb2\
>
> The image has two parts - the top part is correct, the bottom
> is not (being the old interpretation)

In neither are the legs under the body.

Rhino:

https://www.alexflemingart.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Photo_1624454402979.jpg

Under the body.

The alternative reconstruction -- not fact, just a proposed
alternative -- has them less splade out but none the less
NOT under the body.

> > Compare the legs to that of an elephant or a hippo. No, they
> > are not in similar positions at all.

> The triceratops legs are underneath the body.

Of course they're not. Doubling down on your stupidity just
doubles the stupidity. Again, compare them to elephants,
Rhinos or even Sauropod dinosaurs.

NOT the same at all.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/730359491090169856

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>>> From your own cite:
>>>
>>> https://scitechdaily.com/images/Triceratops-Had-Upright-Forelimbs.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb2\
>>
>> The image has two parts - the top part is correct, the bottom
>> is not (being the old interpretation)
>
> In neither are the legs under the body.
>
> Rhino:
>
> https://www.alexflemingart.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Photo_1624454402979.jpg
>
> Under the body.
>
> The alternative reconstruction -- not fact, just a proposed
> alternative -- has them less splade out but none the less
> NOT under the body.
>
>>> Compare the legs to that of an elephant or a hippo. No, they
>>> are not in similar positions at all.
>
>> The triceratops legs are underneath the body.
>
> Of course they're not. Doubling down on your stupidity just
> doubles the stupidity. Again, compare them to elephants,
> Rhinos or even Sauropod dinosaurs.
>
> NOT the same at all.

Sprawling legs are a reptilian characteristic. Dinosaurs
were not reptiles.

The non-film-school research follows

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/paleobiology/article/abs/forelimb-posture-in-neoceratopsian-dinosaurs-implications-for-gait-and-locomotion/D68C8C8D7CEAE836F5B5BE65A78ABD93

http://www.gspauldino.com/Forelimb.pdf

https://phys.org/news/2012-02-debate-dinosaur-posture.html

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2012.0190

Primum Sapienti wrote:

> Sprawling legs are a reptilian characteristic. Dinosaurs
> were not reptiles.

Hence the issue here, with the sprawled out front legs.

They were ground eaters, obviously. The front legs slayed
out so they could feed off the ground.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/732734215444201472

Op vrijdag 8 september 2023 om 05:16:10 UTC+2 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
> On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> > Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> >> "In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
> >> recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan
> >> troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire

> > So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
> > the use of fire?
> > Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
> > walking.
> > One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
> > legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
> > such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like.
> > This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
> > You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
> > evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
> > but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
> > Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.

> Congratulations, you got it right.
> 10 mya apes were like orangutans.

:-D
No, Mario, they were "aquarboreal" (google), probably more like bonobos than like orangs.
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in swamp/mangrove/coastal forests, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc., climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
2) c 15 Ma, pongids followed: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, Pliocene Homo followed (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):
did pongids force our ancestors deeper into the water, diving for shellfish??
Independent indications Indonesian H.erectus were semi-aquatic early-Pleist.., e.g.
• atypical tooth-wear caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks", Towle cs 2022 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
• erectus s.s. fossilized in coastal sediments, e.g. Mojokerto: barnacles + corals, Trinil: Pseudodon + Elongaria edible shellfish, Sangiran-17: "brackish marsh near the coast".
• Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus, Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231
• ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
• pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
• brain size in erectus (2x apes/australopiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, sea-otter.
• erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores & Luzon 67 ka, https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
• Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory cf. sea-otters.
https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/

:-)

______

> The whole world was forest, most of
> the life existed up there, in the canopy, and there the main animals
> were apes. There was some life down there, on the ground, with great
> sense of smell, like pigs, who ate whatever drops from above (like, ape
> eats some fruit, but fruit drops from his hand, and pigs eat this), or
> scavengers with who ate corpses of animals that died in canopy, and some
> browsing ungulates, who browsed tree barks, dogs who chased ungulates,
> and cats who climbed the trees and ate primates (like clouded leopard).
> There were also elephants, who probably evolved in mangroves, but later
> they moved inland by making "elephant highways". Elephant highways are
> "roads" through jungle made by elephants by cutting trees, and thus
> allowed sunshine to reach the ground, the next time elephants pass on
> this road it would be a lot of young vegetation on it, so they would eat
> those, and thus maintain the highway. Other than that there wasn't
> vegetation on the ground, because sunshine couldn't reach it. Except, of
> course, when some tree dies. Then starts a race for another tree seed to
> take its place.
> Then came humans, who started to burn pig nests, and trees on which
> apes were. For example, orangutan cannot easily cross from tree to tree.
> He has to climb all the way to the top, swing the top until reaching
> another tree, this is the only way for orangutan to cross from one tree
> to another. This is why, when loggers come to cut the tree, if orangutan
> is on that tree he falls down along with the tree and dies.
> So, we were burning those trees that orangutans were on, and ate all
> the apes around, except, of course, in areas where you have so huge
> precipitation that you cannot burn trees (this is why orangutans are
> still alive). Possibly some lesser apes, who could move from tree to
> tree, developed their brachiation then (like gibbons).
> Well, it looks like we did better job in Africa than in SE Asia,
> because in Africa we actually forced some apes to adapt to ground
> living. Those apes were forced to run on all fours, so they used hand
> knuckles for it. Because their fingers were like hooks, stiff hooks, so
> they couldn't extend them anymore (plantigradly, like baboons), they
> remained hooked.

On 1.11.2023. 15:02, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op vrijdag 8 september 2023 om 05:16:10 UTC+2 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>> On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
>>> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>>>> "In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
>>>> recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan
>>>> troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
>
>>> So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
>>> the use of fire?
>>> Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
>>> walking.
>>> One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
>>> legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
>>> such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like.
>>> This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
>>> You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
>>> evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
>>> but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
>>> Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.
>
>> Congratulations, you got it right.
>> 10 mya apes were like orangutans.
>
> :-D
> No, Mario, they were "aquarboreal" (google), probably more like bonobos than like orangs.
> Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in swamp/mangrove/coastal forests, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc., climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
> 2) c 15 Ma, pongids followed: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
> 3) c 5 Ma, Pliocene Homo followed (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):
> did pongids force our ancestors deeper into the water, diving for shellfish??
> Independent indications Indonesian H.erectus were semi-aquatic early-Pleist., e.g.
> • atypical tooth-wear caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks", Towle cs 2022 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
> • erectus s.s. fossilized in coastal sediments, e.g. Mojokerto: barnacles + corals, Trinil: Pseudodon + Elongaria edible shellfish, Sangiran-17: "brackish marsh near the coast".
> • Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus, Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231
> • ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
> • pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
> • brain size in erectus (2x apes/australopiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, sea-otter.
> • erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores & Luzon 67 ka, https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
> • Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory cf. sea-otters.
> https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/
>
> :-)

Your timeline is all wrong, we have Danuvius 11.6 mya.

Op woensdag 1 november 2023 om 22:49:31 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
> On 1.11.2023. 15:02, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 8 september 2023 om 05:16:10 UTC+2 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
> >> On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> >>> Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> >>>> "In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
> >>>> recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan
> >>>> troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire

> >>> So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
> >>> the use of fire?
> >>> Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
> >>> walking.
> >>> One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
> >>> legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
> >>> such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like..
> >>> This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
> >>> You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
> >>> evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
> >>> but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
> >>> Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.

> >> Congratulations, you got it right.
> >> 10 mya apes were like orangutans.

> > :-D No, Mario, they were "aquarboreal" (google), probably more like bonobos than like orangs.
> > Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in swamp/mangrove/coastal forests, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc., climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
> > 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
> > 2) c 15 Ma, pongids followed: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
> > 3) c 5 Ma, Pliocene Homo followed (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):
> > did pongids force our ancestors deeper into the water, diving for shellfish??
> > Independent indications Indonesian H.erectus were semi-aquatic early-Pleist., e.g.
> > • atypical tooth-wear caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks", Towle cs 2022 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
> > • erectus s.s. fossilized in coastal sediments, e.g. Mojokerto: barnacles + corals, Trinil: Pseudodon + Elongaria edible shellfish, Sangiran-17: "brackish marsh near the coast".
> > • Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus, Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231
> > • ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
> > • pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
> > • brain size in erectus (2x apes/australopiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, sea-otter.
> > • erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores & Luzon 67 ka, https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
> > • Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory cf.. sea-otters.
> > https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/ :-)

> Your timeline is all wrong, we have Danuvius 11.6 mya.

??
Yes, of vourse:
Danuvius is one of the many many Miocene Hominoidea along coasts->rivers: aquarboreal (or ex-aquarboreal):
Wiki:
Danuvius guggenmosi is an extinct species of gr.ape 11.6 Ma, mid-late-Miocene S-Germany ... probably a woodland + a seasonal climate.
1 male spm was estimated c 31 kg, 2 females 17 & 19 kg.
It is the first-discovered late-Miocene gr.ape with preserved long bones, which could be used to reconstruct the limb anatomy & locomotion.
Discoverer Madelaine Böhme: Danuvius had adaptations for suspensory behavior & bipedalism:
Danuvius thus had a method of locomotion unlike any previously known ape called "extended limb clambering", walking directly along tree-branches + using arms for suspending itself.
The human/ape LCA possibly had a similar method of locomotion.
But Scott Williams & others say: the fragmentary remains do not differ enough from other fossil apes to provide such a clue to the origins of BPism.

IOW, Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps = BPism + suspenson. :-)
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure split pongids East (N.Ind.Ocean coazts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right -> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->Robustus etc.
Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11): -> S.Asian coasts -> Java Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.

On 2.11.2023. 20:42, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op woensdag 1 november 2023 om 22:49:31 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>> On 1.11.2023. 15:02, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>> Op vrijdag 8 september 2023 om 05:16:10 UTC+2 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>>> On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
>>>>> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>>>>>> "In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
>>>>>> recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan
>>>>>> troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
>
>>>>> So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
>>>>> the use of fire?
>>>>> Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
>>>>> walking.
>>>>> One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
>>>>> legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
>>>>> such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like.
>>>>> This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
>>>>> You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
>>>>> evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
>>>>> but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
>>>>> Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.
>
>>>> Congratulations, you got it right.
>>>> 10 mya apes were like orangutans.
>
>>> :-D No, Mario, they were "aquarboreal" (google), probably more like bonobos than like orangs.
>>> Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in swamp/mangrove/coastal forests, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc., climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
>>> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
>>> 2) c 15 Ma, pongids followed: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
>>> 3) c 5 Ma, Pliocene Homo followed (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):
>>> did pongids force our ancestors deeper into the water, diving for shellfish??
>>> Independent indications Indonesian H.erectus were semi-aquatic early-Pleist., e.g.
>>> • atypical tooth-wear caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks", Towle cs 2022 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
>>> • erectus s.s. fossilized in coastal sediments, e.g. Mojokerto: barnacles + corals, Trinil: Pseudodon + Elongaria edible shellfish, Sangiran-17: "brackish marsh near the coast".
>>> • Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus, Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231
>>> • ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
>>> • pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
>>> • brain size in erectus (2x apes/australopiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, sea-otter.
>>> • erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores & Luzon 67 ka, https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
>>> • Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory cf. sea-otters.
>>> https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/ :-)
>
>> Your timeline is all wrong, we have Danuvius 11.6 mya.
>
> ??
> Yes, of vourse:
> Danuvius is one of the many many Miocene Hominoidea along coasts->rivers: aquarboreal (or ex-aquarboreal):
> Wiki:
> Danuvius guggenmosi is an extinct species of gr.ape 11.6 Ma, mid-late-Miocene S-Germany ... probably a woodland + a seasonal climate.
> 1 male spm was estimated c 31 kg, 2 females 17 & 19 kg.
> It is the first-discovered late-Miocene gr.ape with preserved long bones, which could be used to reconstruct the limb anatomy & locomotion.
> Discoverer Madelaine Böhme: Danuvius had adaptations for suspensory behavior & bipedalism:
> Danuvius thus had a method of locomotion unlike any previously known ape called "extended limb clambering", walking directly along tree-branches + using arms for suspending itself.
> The human/ape LCA possibly had a similar method of locomotion.
> But Scott Williams & others say: the fragmentary remains do not differ enough from other fossil apes to provide such a clue to the origins of BPism.
>
> IOW, Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
> wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps = BPism + suspenson. :-)
> Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
> they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
> 2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure split pongids East (N.Ind.Ocean coazts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
> pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
> 3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right -> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->Robustus etc.
> Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11): -> S.Asian coasts -> Java Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.

This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.

On 3.11.2023. 0:03, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 2.11.2023. 20:42, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>> Op woensdag 1 november 2023 om 22:49:31 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>> On 1.11.2023. 15:02, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>>> Op vrijdag 8 september 2023 om 05:16:10 UTC+2 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>> On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
>>>>>> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> "In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
>>>>>>> recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan
>>>>>>> troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
>>
>>>>>> So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
>>>>>> the use of fire?
>>>>>> Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
>>>>>> walking.
>>>>>> One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
>>>>>> legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
>>>>>> such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard
>>>>>> like.
>>>>>> This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
>>>>>> You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
>>>>>> evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
>>>>>> but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
>>>>>> Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.
>>
>>>>> Congratulations, you got it right.
>>>>> 10 mya apes were like orangutans.
>>
>>>> :-D    No, Mario, they were "aquarboreal" (google), probably more
>>>> like bonobos than like orangs.
>>>> Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in
>>>> swamp/mangrove/coastal forests, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove
>>>> oysters etc., climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
>>>> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts ->
>>>> SE.Asia,
>>>> 2) c 15 Ma, pongids followed: did they force hylobatids higher into
>>>> the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
>>>> 3) c 5 Ma, Pliocene Homo followed (humans lack African Pliocene
>>>> retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):
>>>> did pongids force our ancestors deeper into the water, diving for
>>>> shellfish??
>>>> Independent indications Indonesian H.erectus were semi-aquatic
>>>> early-Pleist., e.g.
>>>> • atypical tooth-wear caused by "sand & oral processing of marine
>>>> mollusks", Towle cs 2022
>>>> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
>>>> • erectus s.s. fossilized in coastal sediments, e.g. Mojokerto:
>>>> barnacles + corals, Trinil: Pseudodon + Elongaria edible shellfish,
>>>> Sangiran-17: "brackish marsh near the coast".
>>>> • Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus,
>>>> Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231
>>>> • ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) = years of colder water
>>>> irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
>>>> • pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de
>>>> Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal
>>>> bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
>>>> • brain size in erectus (2x apes/australopiths) = aquatic foods,
>>>> e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes,
>>>> Pinnipedia, sea-otter.
>>>> • erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea:
>>>> Flores & Luzon 67 ka,
>>>> https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
>>>> • Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory cf. sea-otters.
>>>> https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/    :-)
>>
>>> Your timeline is all wrong, we have Danuvius 11.6 mya.
>>
>> ??
>> Yes, of vourse:
>> Danuvius is one of the many many Miocene Hominoidea along
>> coasts->rivers: aquarboreal (or ex-aquarboreal):
>> Wiki:
>> Danuvius guggenmosi is an extinct species of gr.ape 11.6 Ma,
>> mid-late-Miocene S-Germany ... probably a woodland + a seasonal climate.
>> 1 male spm was estimated c 31 kg,  2 females 17 & 19 kg.
>> It is the first-discovered late-Miocene gr.ape with preserved long
>> bones, which could be used to reconstruct the limb anatomy & locomotion.
>> Discoverer Madelaine Böhme:  Danuvius had adaptations for suspensory
>> behavior & bipedalism:
>> Danuvius thus had a method of locomotion unlike any previously known
>> ape called "extended limb clambering", walking directly along
>> tree-branches + using arms for suspending itself.
>> The human/ape LCA possibly had a similar method of locomotion.
>> But Scott Williams & others say: the fragmentary remains do not differ
>> enough from other fossil apes to provide such a clue to the origins of
>> BPism.
>>
>> IOW, Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
>> wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps
>> = BPism + suspenson.   :-)
>> Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean
>> mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
>> they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
>> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
>> 2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure split pongids East
>> (N.Ind.Ocean coazts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
>> pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the
>> trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
>> 3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
>> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->Robustus etc.
>> Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA,
>> e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):  -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
>> Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.
>
>         This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.

Actually, again, this species happen right at the faunal turnover. At
the locality, 11.6 mya is fauna of the old type, while just slightly
younger layers, 11.5 mya, have the new type of fauna with Hipparionine
horses, which should, actually, belong to much younger Mammalian Neogene
zone MN9 (which is Vallesian). Exactly the emergence of Hipparionine
horses is tied to the faunal turnover, or Vallesian crisis. I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
burning forest, and we do have indications of forest fires on the locality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerschmiede_clay_pit#Biostratigraphy_and_Paleoecology

Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 06:12:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
....
> >> Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
> >> wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps
> >> = BPism + suspenson. :-)
> >> Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean
> >> mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
> >> they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
> >> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
> >> 2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure split pongids East
> >> (N.Ind.Ocean coasts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
> >> pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the
> >> trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
> >> 3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
> >> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->robustus etc.
> >> Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA,
> >> e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11) -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
> >> Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.

> > This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.

> Actually, again, this species happen right at the faunal turnover. At
> the locality, 11.6 mya is fauna of the old type, while just slightly
> younger layers, 11.5 mya, have the new type of fauna with Hipparionine
> horses, which should, actually, belong to much younger Mammalian Neogene
> zone MN9 (which is Vallesian). Exactly the emergence of Hipparionine
> horses is tied to the faunal turnover, or Vallesian crisis. I am
> claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
> burning forest, and we do have indications of forest fires on the locality.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerschmiede_clay_pit#Biostratigraphy_and_Paleoecology

:-DDD
Our Miocene ancestors were aquarboreal apes, Mario, vertical waders-climbers in mangroves.
Probably only early-Pleistocene, Homo became predom.shellfish divers along the Ind.Ocean, e.g.
• archaic Homo's atypical tooth-wear = "sand and oral processing of marine mollusks" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
• erectus s.s. fossilized amid barnacles + corals (Mojokerto), edible shellfish Pseudodon + Elongaria (Trinil), "brackish marsh near the coast" (Sangiran-17),
• Stephen Munro described sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25470048/
• ear exostoses (erectus & neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
• pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
• brain size in erectus (2x apes/apiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, Enhydra.
• erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores, Luzon https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
• stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory, e.g. sea-otters:
fire use was still later: sparks of stone tool making.

IOW, only *incredibly* imbecilic idiots still believe they descend from African antelope hunters... :-DDD

On 3.11.2023. 11:54, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 06:12:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
> ...
>>>> Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
>>>> wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps
>>>> = BPism + suspenson. :-)
>>>> Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean
>>>> mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
>>>> they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
>>>> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
>>>> 2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure split pongids East
>>>> (N.Ind.Ocean coasts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
>>>> pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the
>>>> trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
>>>> 3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
>>>> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->robustus etc.
>>>> Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA,
>>>> e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11) -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
>>>> Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.
>
>>> This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.
>
>> Actually, again, this species happen right at the faunal turnover. At
>> the locality, 11.6 mya is fauna of the old type, while just slightly
>> younger layers, 11.5 mya, have the new type of fauna with Hipparionine
>> horses, which should, actually, belong to much younger Mammalian Neogene
>> zone MN9 (which is Vallesian). Exactly the emergence of Hipparionine
>> horses is tied to the faunal turnover, or Vallesian crisis. I am
>> claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
>> burning forest, and we do have indications of forest fires on the locality.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerschmiede_clay_pit#Biostratigraphy_and_Paleoecology
>
> :-DDD
> Our Miocene ancestors were aquarboreal apes, Mario, vertical waders-climbers in mangroves.
> Probably only early-Pleistocene, Homo became predom.shellfish divers along the Ind.Ocean, e.g.
> • archaic Homo's atypical tooth-wear = "sand and oral processing of marine mollusks" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
> • erectus s.s. fossilized amid barnacles + corals (Mojokerto), edible shellfish Pseudodon + Elongaria (Trinil), "brackish marsh near the coast" (Sangiran-17),
> • Stephen Munro described sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25470048/
> • ear exostoses (erectus & neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
> • pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
> • brain size in erectus (2x apes/apiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, Enhydra.
> • erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores, Luzon https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
> • stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory, e.g. sea-otters:
> fire use was still later: sparks of stone tool making.
>
> IOW, only *incredibly* imbecilic idiots still believe they descend from African antelope hunters... :-DDD

Marc, you have old record:
https://youtu.be/DdTTqDGPEeg?si=jsQyYWyJgnZrC91w

Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 18:41:03 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
> On 3.11.2023. 11:54, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 06:12:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:

...
> >>>> Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
> >>>> wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps
> >>>> = BPism + suspenson. :-)
> >>>> Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean
> >>>> mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
> >>>> they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
> >>>> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
> >>>> 2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure split pongids East
> >>>> (N.Ind.Ocean coasts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
> >>>> pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the
> >>>> trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
> >>>> 3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
> >>>> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->robustus etc.
> >>>> Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA,
> >>>> e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11) -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
> >>>> Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.

> >>> This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.

> >> Actually, again, this species happen right at the faunal turnover. At
> >> the locality, 11.6 mya is fauna of the old type, while just slightly
> >> younger layers, 11.5 mya, have the new type of fauna with Hipparionine
> >> horses, which should, actually, belong to much younger Mammalian Neogene
> >> zone MN9 (which is Vallesian). Exactly the emergence of Hipparionine
> >> horses is tied to the faunal turnover, or Vallesian crisis. I am
> >> claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
> >> burning forest, and we do have indications of forest fires on the locality.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerschmiede_clay_pit#Biostratigraphy_and_Paleoecology

> > :-DDD Our Miocene ancestors were aquarboreal apes, Mario, vertical waders-climbers in mangroves.
> > Probably only early-Pleistocene, Homo became predom.shellfish divers along the Ind.Ocean, e.g.
> > • archaic Homo's atypical tooth-wear = "sand and oral processing of marine mollusks" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
> > • erectus s.s. fossilized amid barnacles + corals (Mojokerto), edible shellfish Pseudodon + Elongaria (Trinil), "brackish marsh near the coast" (Sangiran-17),
> > • Stephen Munro described sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25470048/
> > • ear exostoses (erectus & neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
> > • pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
> > • brain size in erectus (2x apes/apiths) = aquatic foods, e.g.. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, Enhydra.
> > • erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores, Luzon https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
> > • stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory, e.g. sea-otters:
> > fire use was still later: sparks of stone tool making.
> > IOW, only *incredibly* imbecilic idiots still believe they descend from African antelope hunters... :-DDD

> Marc, you have old record:
> https://youtu.be/DdTTqDGPEeg?si=jsQyYWyJgnZrC91w

Yes, Mario, I know: you have no answer... :-D

On 3.11.2023. 22:29, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 18:41:03 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>> On 3.11.2023. 11:54, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>> Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 06:12:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>
> ...
>>>>>> Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
>>>>>> wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps
>>>>>> = BPism + suspenson. :-)
>>>>>> Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean
>>>>>> mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
>>>>>> they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
>>>>>> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
>>>>>> 2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure split pongids East
>>>>>> (N.Ind.Ocean coasts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
>>>>>> pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the
>>>>>> trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
>>>>>> 3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
>>>>>> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->robustus etc.
>>>>>> Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA,
>>>>>> e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11) -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
>>>>>> Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.
>
>>>>> This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.
>
>>>> Actually, again, this species happen right at the faunal turnover. At
>>>> the locality, 11.6 mya is fauna of the old type, while just slightly
>>>> younger layers, 11.5 mya, have the new type of fauna with Hipparionine
>>>> horses, which should, actually, belong to much younger Mammalian Neogene
>>>> zone MN9 (which is Vallesian). Exactly the emergence of Hipparionine
>>>> horses is tied to the faunal turnover, or Vallesian crisis. I am
>>>> claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
>>>> burning forest, and we do have indications of forest fires on the locality.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerschmiede_clay_pit#Biostratigraphy_and_Paleoecology
>
>
>>> :-DDD Our Miocene ancestors were aquarboreal apes, Mario, vertical waders-climbers in mangroves.
>>> Probably only early-Pleistocene, Homo became predom.shellfish divers along the Ind.Ocean, e.g.
>>> • archaic Homo's atypical tooth-wear = "sand and oral processing of marine mollusks" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
>>> • erectus s.s. fossilized amid barnacles + corals (Mojokerto), edible shellfish Pseudodon + Elongaria (Trinil), "brackish marsh near the coast" (Sangiran-17),
>>> • Stephen Munro described sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25470048/
>>> • ear exostoses (erectus & neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
>>> • pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
>>> • brain size in erectus (2x apes/apiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, Enhydra.
>>> • erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores, Luzon https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
>>> • stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory, e.g. sea-otters:
>>> fire use was still later: sparks of stone tool making.
>>> IOW, only *incredibly* imbecilic idiots still believe they descend from African antelope hunters... :-DDD
>
>> Marc, you have old record:
>> https://youtu.be/DdTTqDGPEeg?si=jsQyYWyJgnZrC91w
>
> Yes, Mario, I know: you have no answer... :-D

Marc, you are not stupid, and you postulate your ideas well. I am
doing it better, though. There is a saying: "Everything is possible, but
not everything is probable.". My ideas are far better incorporated into
our traits. You are just scratching the surface.

Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> I am
> claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
> burning forest

Burning pig nests?

What is your evidence?

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/732973247328583680

On 4.11.2023. 0:29, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> I am
>> claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
>> burning forest
>
> Burning pig nests?
>
> What is your evidence?

Burned pig nests.

Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> > Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >> I am
> >> claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
> >> burning forest
> >
> > Burning pig nests?
> >
> > What is your evidence?

> Burned pig nests.

Cites?

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/732973247328583680

On 4.11.2023. 5:25, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
>>> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> I am
>>>> claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
>>>> burning forest
>>>
>>> Burning pig nests?
>>>
>>> What is your evidence?
>
>> Burned pig nests.
>
> Cites?

You're stupid.

Op zaterdag 4 november 2023 om 05:35:58 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
> On 4.11.2023. 5:25, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

> >>>> I am
> >>>> claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
> >>>> burning forest

:-DDD
Mio-Pliocene Hominoidea were already bipedal:
vertical wading+climbing in N-Tethys coastal forests,
google "aquarboreal".

> >>> Burning pig nests?
> >>> What is your evidence?

> >> Burned pig nests.

> > Cites?

> You're stupid.

??
Mario, Mario,
please...
who is stupid??
Your "ideas"??

You have 0, Mario, just big words, no content.

There's no doubt whatsoever:
early-Pleist.H.erectus on Java frequently dived for shellfish:
you *nowhere* have any answer:
- pachyosteosclerosis = shallow-diving
- ear exostoses = chronic colder water
- shell engravings in Dubois collection
- dental wear caused by shellfish
- colonisations of Flores & Luzon
- brain size x2 = DHA etc. in sea-food
- fossilisations amid shellfish
- stone tools & dexterity = sea-otter
- platycephaly = hydrodyn.streamline

See my 2022 book,
google "Verhaegen GondwanaTalks".