On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 4:49:42 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/29/2024 5:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/29/2024 4:06 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 9:20:01 PM UTC+1, Frank
> >> Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 1/29/2024 2:30 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:38:03 PM UTC+1, Frank
> >>>> Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 1/28/2024 11:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1/28/2024 5:19 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Every time I read one of the thrilling studies that
> >>>>>>> prove something or
> >>>>>>> another I'm reminded of a friend who made a
> >>>>>>> successful business of
> >>>>>>> conducting studies to determine whether a projected
> >>>>>>> business would be
> >>>>>>> a financial success. He once commented, "tell me what
> >>>>>>> you want to
> >>>>>>> prove and I'll design a survey to prove it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, John, you've mentioned that time after time after
> >>>>>> time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'll point out that you're actually arguing against
> >>>>>> yourself. You've
> >>>>>> also mentioned many times that the COVID vaccination
> >>>>>> rates and death
> >>>>>> rates for Thailand look far better than those for the
> >>>>>> U.S.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What's your real point? That we should ignore the data
> >>>>>> you, yourself,
> >>>>>> provide? That nothing can be known? That we must
> >>>>>> forever wallow in
> >>>>>> ignorance?
> >>>>> So I've read the ramblings from the Florida tricycle
> >>>>> rider. He's
> >>>>> desperate to defend his usual position, which is that
> >>>>> any research
> >>>>> findings that violate his prejudices must be fake.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (Which, come to think of it, sounds a lot like "Any
> >>>>> election my
> >>>>> candidate lost must be stolen.")
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So a question for him, for John, for Tom: Suppose you
> >>>>> were a medical
> >>>>> researcher who really, honestly wanted to find out if
> >>>>> political
> >>>>> leanings for _either_ party were correlated with bad
> >>>>> COVID outcomes. How
> >>>>> would you go about determining that?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Don't slither away from the question. Give us a
> >>>>> procedure that could
> >>>>> give us good results in the real world.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>
> >>>> I have no position in this but what would be the
> >>>> motivation for someone to start such a research: try to
> >>>> correlare excess deaths to a political preference?
> >>> I suspect it developed this way: First, anyone who was
> >>> the least bit
> >>> interested would have noted that right wingers scoffed at
> >>> everything
> >>> related to COVID. That was amply demonstrated in this
> >>> discussion group.
> >>> The details of rationalization shifted over time, but
> >>> what seemed
> >>> consistent was that the further right a person's
> >>> political beliefs, the
> >>> more they were likely to say that COVID was fake, COVID
> >>> was very mild,
> >>> vaccines didn't work, masks didn't work, there was no
> >>> reason to stay
> >>> away from others, etc.
> >>>
> >>> It would thus be very reasonable for a person working in
> >>> public health
> >>> to ask "Did the areas with more right-wingers suffer more
> >>> serious
> >>> infections and deaths?" It would give an indication of
> >>> whether COVID
> >>> defense measures and related behavior actually did make a
> >>> difference.
> >>>
> >>> What we're seeing is A) research confirming the
> >>> probability that
> >>> behaviors made a difference; and B) rationalizations from
> >>> the losing
> >>> side that any research that shows they were wrong _must_
> >>> be false.
> >>>
> >>> Again, just like "Any election my candidate lost must be
> >>> stolen."
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >> Nope it is only contributing to the incredable
> >> polarization what is going on in the US. It is disgusting
> >> not only here.
> >
> > Sorry for the double reply, but:
> >
> > What is the situation in the Netherlands? Do you have large
> > blocs of the population who have had markedly different
> > COVID results? Do you have large numbers who based on party
> > affiliation have rejected medical recommendations for
> > dealing with the disease?
> >
>
> Netherlands is amidst significant political changes in
> reaction to draconian regulation, applied and proposed.
>
> Much the same is just starting in Germany, for similar reasons.
>
> No one, especially farmers, wants to be Ceylon:
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/05/sri-lanka-organic-farming-crisis/
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/07/world/asia/sri-lanka-organic-farming-fertilizer.html
>
> US ag exports are huge but a small % of our GDP.
> For Nederlands ag exports are much more important.
> (I know nothing of German ag exports)
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I have had all of the sewer lines in my house replaced with plastic pipe all the way out to the middle of the street which had to be inspected. Now, there is enough mud in the water pipes that they all have to be replaced. They have been quoting me ridiculous prices so I keep putting it off. Right now only one hot water facet works correctly. Plus, my wife replaced all of my metal fittings so that they cannot be taken apart and the rocks cleaned out of them. It used to be that we received water from Hetch Hetchy and if the water level in the reservoir got too low as it would every five or so years, they would switch over to our local water and the pipes would all fill up with stones and mud. But for some reason they haven't been using Hetch Hetchy at all and we're stuck after those last year rains with mud and stones as an almost permanent problem.

Plus, they are talking about replacing the iron water pipes with copper. In Reno they use flexible plastic tubing of large diameter so that there is no problems with mud or stones blocking off the smaller diameter copper pipes.

On 1/30/2024 3:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 4:49:42 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/29/2024 5:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2024 4:06 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 9:20:01 PM UTC+1, Frank
>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/29/2024 2:30 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:38:03 PM UTC+1, Frank
>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/28/2024 11:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2024 5:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Every time I read one of the thrilling studies that
>>>>>>>>> prove something or
>>>>>>>>> another I'm reminded of a friend who made a
>>>>>>>>> successful business of
>>>>>>>>> conducting studies to determine whether a projected
>>>>>>>>> business would be
>>>>>>>>> a financial success. He once commented, "tell me what
>>>>>>>>> you want to
>>>>>>>>> prove and I'll design a survey to prove it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, John, you've mentioned that time after time after
>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll point out that you're actually arguing against
>>>>>>>> yourself. You've
>>>>>>>> also mentioned many times that the COVID vaccination
>>>>>>>> rates and death
>>>>>>>> rates for Thailand look far better than those for the
>>>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's your real point? That we should ignore the data
>>>>>>>> you, yourself,
>>>>>>>> provide? That nothing can be known? That we must
>>>>>>>> forever wallow in
>>>>>>>> ignorance?
>>>>>>> So I've read the ramblings from the Florida tricycle
>>>>>>> rider. He's
>>>>>>> desperate to defend his usual position, which is that
>>>>>>> any research
>>>>>>> findings that violate his prejudices must be fake.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Which, come to think of it, sounds a lot like "Any
>>>>>>> election my
>>>>>>> candidate lost must be stolen.")
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So a question for him, for John, for Tom: Suppose you
>>>>>>> were a medical
>>>>>>> researcher who really, honestly wanted to find out if
>>>>>>> political
>>>>>>> leanings for _either_ party were correlated with bad
>>>>>>> COVID outcomes. How
>>>>>>> would you go about determining that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't slither away from the question. Give us a
>>>>>>> procedure that could
>>>>>>> give us good results in the real world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no position in this but what would be the
>>>>>> motivation for someone to start such a research: try to
>>>>>> correlare excess deaths to a political preference?
>>>>> I suspect it developed this way: First, anyone who was
>>>>> the least bit
>>>>> interested would have noted that right wingers scoffed at
>>>>> everything
>>>>> related to COVID. That was amply demonstrated in this
>>>>> discussion group.
>>>>> The details of rationalization shifted over time, but
>>>>> what seemed
>>>>> consistent was that the further right a person's
>>>>> political beliefs, the
>>>>> more they were likely to say that COVID was fake, COVID
>>>>> was very mild,
>>>>> vaccines didn't work, masks didn't work, there was no
>>>>> reason to stay
>>>>> away from others, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would thus be very reasonable for a person working in
>>>>> public health
>>>>> to ask "Did the areas with more right-wingers suffer more
>>>>> serious
>>>>> infections and deaths?" It would give an indication of
>>>>> whether COVID
>>>>> defense measures and related behavior actually did make a
>>>>> difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> What we're seeing is A) research confirming the
>>>>> probability that
>>>>> behaviors made a difference; and B) rationalizations from
>>>>> the losing
>>>>> side that any research that shows they were wrong _must_
>>>>> be false.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, just like "Any election my candidate lost must be
>>>>> stolen."
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> Nope it is only contributing to the incredable
>>>> polarization what is going on in the US. It is disgusting
>>>> not only here.
>>>
>>> Sorry for the double reply, but:
>>>
>>> What is the situation in the Netherlands? Do you have large
>>> blocs of the population who have had markedly different
>>> COVID results? Do you have large numbers who based on party
>>> affiliation have rejected medical recommendations for
>>> dealing with the disease?
>>>
>>
>> Netherlands is amidst significant political changes in
>> reaction to draconian regulation, applied and proposed.
>>
>> Much the same is just starting in Germany, for similar reasons.
>>
>> No one, especially farmers, wants to be Ceylon:
>> https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/05/sri-lanka-organic-farming-crisis/
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/07/world/asia/sri-lanka-organic-farming-fertilizer.html
>>
>> US ag exports are huge but a small % of our GDP.
>> For Nederlands ag exports are much more important.
>> (I know nothing of German ag exports)

>
> I have had all of the sewer lines in my house replaced with plastic pipe all the way out to the middle of the street which had to be inspected. Now, there is enough mud in the water pipes that they all have to be replaced. They have been quoting me ridiculous prices so I keep putting it off. Right now only one hot water facet works correctly. Plus, my wife replaced all of my metal fittings so that they cannot be taken apart and the rocks cleaned out of them. It used to be that we received water from Hetch Hetchy and if the water level in the reservoir got too low as it would every five or so years, they would switch over to our local water and the pipes would all fill up with stones and mud. But for some reason they haven't been using Hetch Hetchy at all and we're stuck after those last year rains with mud and stones as an almost permanent problem.
>
> Plus, they are talking about replacing the iron water pipes with copper. In Reno they use flexible plastic tubing of large diameter so that there is no problems with mud or stones blocking off the smaller diameter copper pipes.

I am not an expert on water utilities.

It seems that silt in your water is caused by global warming
and that's a good thing because it 'improves fish habitat'.

https://www.usgs.gov/news/how-changing-climate-will-impact-flow-sediment-san-francisco-bay-delta

I also found a 2015 report on Bay Area 'alternate' water supply:

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco-new-source-of-water-groundwater-hetch-hetchy/1978906/

"The groundwater isn’t as sparklingly clean as the snowmelt
water flowing out of Yosemite." Doesn't say if that's silt
or dog poop or what.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/30/2024 4:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/30/2024 3:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 4:49:42 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2024 5:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/29/2024 4:06 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 9:20:01 PM UTC+1, Frank
>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/29/2024 2:30 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:38:03 PM UTC+1, Frank
>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2024 11:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2024 5:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Every time I read one of the thrilling studies that
>>>>>>>>>> prove something or
>>>>>>>>>> another I'm reminded of a friend who made a
>>>>>>>>>> successful business of
>>>>>>>>>> conducting studies to determine whether a projected
>>>>>>>>>> business would be
>>>>>>>>>> a financial success. He once commented, "tell me what
>>>>>>>>>> you want to
>>>>>>>>>> prove and I'll design a survey to prove it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, John, you've mentioned that time after time after
>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'll point out that you're actually arguing against
>>>>>>>>> yourself. You've
>>>>>>>>> also mentioned many times that the COVID vaccination
>>>>>>>>> rates and death
>>>>>>>>> rates for Thailand look far better than those for the
>>>>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What's your real point? That we should ignore the data
>>>>>>>>> you, yourself,
>>>>>>>>> provide? That nothing can be known? That we must
>>>>>>>>> forever wallow in
>>>>>>>>> ignorance?
>>>>>>>> So I've read the ramblings from the Florida tricycle
>>>>>>>> rider. He's
>>>>>>>> desperate to defend his usual position, which is that
>>>>>>>> any research
>>>>>>>> findings that violate his prejudices must be fake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Which, come to think of it, sounds a lot like "Any
>>>>>>>> election my
>>>>>>>> candidate lost must be stolen.")
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So a question for him, for John, for Tom: Suppose you
>>>>>>>> were a medical
>>>>>>>> researcher who really, honestly wanted to find out if
>>>>>>>> political
>>>>>>>> leanings for _either_ party were correlated with bad
>>>>>>>> COVID outcomes. How
>>>>>>>> would you go about determining that?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't slither away from the question. Give us a
>>>>>>>> procedure that could
>>>>>>>> give us good results in the real world.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no position in this but what would be the
>>>>>>> motivation for someone to start such a research: try to
>>>>>>> correlare excess deaths to a political preference?
>>>>>> I suspect it developed this way: First, anyone who was
>>>>>> the least bit
>>>>>> interested would have noted that right wingers scoffed at
>>>>>> everything
>>>>>> related to COVID. That was amply demonstrated in this
>>>>>> discussion group.
>>>>>> The details of rationalization shifted over time, but
>>>>>> what seemed
>>>>>> consistent was that the further right a person's
>>>>>> political beliefs, the
>>>>>> more they were likely to say that COVID was fake, COVID
>>>>>> was very mild,
>>>>>> vaccines didn't work, masks didn't work, there was no
>>>>>> reason to stay
>>>>>> away from others, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would thus be very reasonable for a person working in
>>>>>> public health
>>>>>> to ask "Did the areas with more right-wingers suffer more
>>>>>> serious
>>>>>> infections and deaths?" It would give an indication of
>>>>>> whether COVID
>>>>>> defense measures and related behavior actually did make a
>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What we're seeing is A) research confirming the
>>>>>> probability that
>>>>>> behaviors made a difference; and B) rationalizations from
>>>>>> the losing
>>>>>> side that any research that shows they were wrong _must_
>>>>>> be false.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, just like "Any election my candidate lost must be
>>>>>> stolen."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope it is only contributing to the incredable
>>>>> polarization what is going on in the US. It is disgusting
>>>>> not only here.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the double reply, but:
>>>>
>>>> What is the situation in the Netherlands? Do you have large
>>>> blocs of the population who have had markedly different
>>>> COVID results? Do you have large numbers who based on party
>>>> affiliation have rejected medical recommendations for
>>>> dealing with the disease?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Netherlands is amidst significant political changes in
>>> reaction to draconian regulation, applied and proposed.
>>>
>>> Much the same is just starting in Germany, for similar reasons.
>>>
>>> No one, especially farmers, wants to be Ceylon:
>>> https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/05/sri-lanka-organic-farming-crisis/
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/07/world/asia/sri-lanka-organic-farming-fertilizer.html
>>>
>>> US ag exports are huge but a small % of our GDP.
>>> For Nederlands ag exports are much more important.
>>> (I know nothing of German ag exports)
>
>>
>> I have had all of the sewer lines in my house replaced with plastic
>> pipe all the way out to the middle of the street which had to be
>> inspected. Now, there is enough mud in the water pipes that they all
>> have to be replaced. They have been quoting me ridiculous prices so I
>> keep putting it off. Right now only one hot water facet works
>> correctly. Plus, my wife replaced all of my metal fittings so that
>> they cannot be taken apart and the rocks cleaned out of them. It used
>> to be that we received water from Hetch Hetchy and if the water level
>> in the reservoir got too low as it would every five or so years, they
>> would switch over to our local water and the pipes would all fill up
>> with stones and mud. But for some reason they haven't been using Hetch
>> Hetchy at all and we're stuck after those last year rains with mud and
>> stones as an almost permanent problem.
>>
>> Plus, they are talking about replacing the iron water pipes with
>> copper. In Reno they use flexible plastic tubing of large diameter so
>> that there is no problems with mud or stones blocking off the smaller
>> diameter copper pipes.
>
> I am not an expert on water utilities.
>
> It seems that silt in your water is caused by global warming and that's
> a good thing because it 'improves fish habitat'.
>
> https://www.usgs.gov/news/how-changing-climate-will-impact-flow-sediment-san-francisco-bay-delta
>
> I also found a 2015 report on Bay Area 'alternate' water supply:
>
> https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco-new-source-of-water-groundwater-hetch-hetchy/1978906/
>
> "The groundwater isn’t as sparklingly clean as the snowmelt water
> flowing out of Yosemite."  Doesn't say if that's silt or dog poop or what.

On 1/30/2024 4:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I have had all of the sewer lines in my house replaced with plastic pipe all the way out to the middle of the street which had to be inspected. Now, there is enough mud in the water pipes that they all have to be replaced.

If you have mud and rocks in your sewer pipes, the mud and rocks are
coming either from a cracked pipe or inside your house. Mud and rocks
aren't present in the water supply to your house.

> They have been quoting me ridiculous prices so I keep putting it off. Right now only one hot water facet works correctly.

Your water facets have nothing to do with the sewer pipe leaving your
house.

> Plus, my wife replaced all of my metal fittings so that they cannot be taken apart and the rocks cleaned out of them.

There are no mud/rocks coming into your house from the water supply tom.
If that were the case it wouldn't be just you, it would everyone who is
on that main.

> It used to be that we received water from Hetch Hetchy and if the water level in the reservoir got too low as it would every five or so years, they would switch over to our local water and the pipes would all fill up with stones and mud. But for some reason they haven't been using Hetch Hetchy at all and we're stuck after those last year rains with mud and stones as an almost permanent problem.
>
> Plus, they are talking about replacing the iron water pipes with copper. In Reno they use flexible plastic tubing of large diameter so that there is no problems with mud or stones blocking off the smaller diameter copper pipes.

So a man as wealthy as you can't afford to get the pluming in your house
fixed to the extent that you have one working hot water faucet for your
whole house?

Why does a man as rich as you insist on living in a crime invested
neighborhood in a house with a plugged up sewer pipe and one working faucet?

You should move to reno. It's trump country, and you could get a
veritable mansion for what you falling-down house in san leandro is worth.

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/30/2024 11:04 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/30/2024 4:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/30/2024 3:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 4:49:42 PM UTC-8, AMuzi
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 1/29/2024 5:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/29/2024 4:06 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 9:20:01 PM UTC+1, Frank
>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/29/2024 2:30 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:38:03 PM UTC+1, Frank
>>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2024 11:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2024 5:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Every time I read one of the thrilling studies that
>>>>>>>>>>> prove something or
>>>>>>>>>>> another I'm reminded of a friend who made a
>>>>>>>>>>> successful business of
>>>>>>>>>>> conducting studies to determine whether a projected
>>>>>>>>>>> business would be
>>>>>>>>>>> a financial success. He once commented, "tell me
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> you want to
>>>>>>>>>>> prove and I'll design a survey to prove it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, John, you've mentioned that time after time
>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll point out that you're actually arguing against
>>>>>>>>>> yourself. You've
>>>>>>>>>> also mentioned many times that the COVID vaccination
>>>>>>>>>> rates and death
>>>>>>>>>> rates for Thailand look far better than those for the
>>>>>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What's your real point? That we should ignore the
>>>>>>>>>> data
>>>>>>>>>> you, yourself,
>>>>>>>>>> provide? That nothing can be known? That we must
>>>>>>>>>> forever wallow in
>>>>>>>>>> ignorance?
>>>>>>>>> So I've read the ramblings from the Florida tricycle
>>>>>>>>> rider. He's
>>>>>>>>> desperate to defend his usual position, which is that
>>>>>>>>> any research
>>>>>>>>> findings that violate his prejudices must be fake.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Which, come to think of it, sounds a lot like "Any
>>>>>>>>> election my
>>>>>>>>> candidate lost must be stolen.")
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So a question for him, for John, for Tom: Suppose you
>>>>>>>>> were a medical
>>>>>>>>> researcher who really, honestly wanted to find out if
>>>>>>>>> political
>>>>>>>>> leanings for _either_ party were correlated with bad
>>>>>>>>> COVID outcomes. How
>>>>>>>>> would you go about determining that?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don't slither away from the question. Give us a
>>>>>>>>> procedure that could
>>>>>>>>> give us good results in the real world.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have no position in this but what would be the
>>>>>>>> motivation for someone to start such a research: try to
>>>>>>>> correlare excess deaths to a political preference?
>>>>>>> I suspect it developed this way: First, anyone who was
>>>>>>> the least bit
>>>>>>> interested would have noted that right wingers
>>>>>>> scoffed at
>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>> related to COVID. That was amply demonstrated in this
>>>>>>> discussion group.
>>>>>>> The details of rationalization shifted over time, but
>>>>>>> what seemed
>>>>>>> consistent was that the further right a person's
>>>>>>> political beliefs, the
>>>>>>> more they were likely to say that COVID was fake, COVID
>>>>>>> was very mild,
>>>>>>> vaccines didn't work, masks didn't work, there was no
>>>>>>> reason to stay
>>>>>>> away from others, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would thus be very reasonable for a person working in
>>>>>>> public health
>>>>>>> to ask "Did the areas with more right-wingers suffer
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>> infections and deaths?" It would give an indication of
>>>>>>> whether COVID
>>>>>>> defense measures and related behavior actually did
>>>>>>> make a
>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What we're seeing is A) research confirming the
>>>>>>> probability that
>>>>>>> behaviors made a difference; and B) rationalizations
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the losing
>>>>>>> side that any research that shows they were wrong _must_
>>>>>>> be false.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, just like "Any election my candidate lost must be
>>>>>>> stolen."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope it is only contributing to the incredable
>>>>>> polarization what is going on in the US. It is disgusting
>>>>>> not only here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for the double reply, but:
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the situation in the Netherlands? Do you have
>>>>> large
>>>>> blocs of the population who have had markedly different
>>>>> COVID results? Do you have large numbers who based on
>>>>> party
>>>>> affiliation have rejected medical recommendations for
>>>>> dealing with the disease?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Netherlands is amidst significant political changes in
>>>> reaction to draconian regulation, applied and proposed.
>>>>
>>>> Much the same is just starting in Germany, for similar
>>>> reasons.
>>>>
>>>> No one, especially farmers, wants to be Ceylon:
>>>> https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/05/sri-lanka-organic-farming-crisis/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/07/world/asia/sri-lanka-organic-farming-fertilizer.html
>>>>
>>>> US ag exports are huge but a small % of our GDP.
>>>> For Nederlands ag exports are much more important.
>>>> (I know nothing of German ag exports)
>>
>>>
>>> I have had all of the sewer lines in my house replaced
>>> with plastic pipe all the way out to the middle of the
>>> street which had to be inspected. Now, there is enough
>>> mud in the water pipes that they all have to be replaced.
>>> They have been quoting me ridiculous prices so I keep
>>> putting it off. Right now only one hot water facet works
>>> correctly. Plus, my wife replaced all of my metal
>>> fittings so that they cannot be taken apart and the rocks
>>> cleaned out of them. It used to be that we received water
>>> from Hetch Hetchy and if the water level in the reservoir
>>> got too low as it would every five or so years, they
>>> would switch over to our local water and the pipes would
>>> all fill up with stones and mud. But for some reason they
>>> haven't been using Hetch Hetchy at all and we're stuck
>>> after those last year rains with mud and stones as an
>>> almost permanent problem.
>>>
>>> Plus, they are talking about replacing the iron water
>>> pipes with copper. In Reno they use flexible plastic
>>> tubing of large diameter so that there is no problems
>>> with mud or stones blocking off the smaller diameter
>>> copper pipes.
>>
>> I am not an expert on water utilities.
>>
>> It seems that silt in your water is caused by global
>> warming and that's a good thing because it 'improves fish
>> habitat'.
>>
>> https://www.usgs.gov/news/how-changing-climate-will-impact-flow-sediment-san-francisco-bay-delta
>>
>> I also found a 2015 report on Bay Area 'alternate' water
>> supply:
>>
>> https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco-new-source-of-water-groundwater-hetch-hetchy/1978906/
>>
>> "The groundwater isn’t as sparklingly clean as the
>> snowmelt water flowing out of Yosemite."  Doesn't say if
>> that's silt or dog poop or what.
>
> I very much doubt that Tom has mud or stones blocking his
> water pipes. I'd think that sort of problem that would be
> headline news, were it true. (Unless, that is, it happens
> _only_ to Tom, as usual!)
>
> In my area, water quality is measured and reported to
> customers in detail, down to the presence of trace
> compounds. It's a government requirement. Why would mud and
> stones not be noted? And even without that, how would stones
> make it through the pumping and filtration process?
>
> But in the unlikely event that what Tom says is correct:
>
> Why on earth wouldn't such a "wealthy" guy move out of that
> hellhole?
>

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:12:44 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>I don't know either but there is a lot of web material on
>backflushing home water systems to remove stones and silt so
>someone has that problem. I just don't know about Bay Area
>frequency or the significance of it.

I don't believe Tom.

In California, the municipal water services are required to flush the
pipes annually. The problem they're trying to solve is not
accumulated boulders or rocks. It's the build up of bacteria in the
pipes that's the problem.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=flush+municipal+water+pipes+annually>
Here's how my local water district does it:

"System Flushing"
<https://www.slvwd.com/your-water/pages/system-flushing>
"Flushing water mains is a standard industry practice used to remove
accumulated sediment and biofilm in the water distribution system by
flushing water at high velocities primarily through fire hydrants.
This high velocity flushing scours the inside of water mains. Flushing
of mains is performed by certified Distribution system operators."

In Aug 2020, we had the CZU Fire Complex burn down 900 buildings in
our forest. The heat from the fire also melted a large number of HDPE
plastic water pipes. Predictably, the system lost water pressure.
Normally, the water pressure inside the pipes is higher than outside
so there's no incursion of silt, crud, bugs, etc into the pipes.
However, if there's a leak anywhere in the pipe or a major drop in
water pressure, the pipe will backfill with crud. I don't want to
detail the recovery procedure, but it did involve a tedious series of
flushings and tests.
<https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/czu-fire-water-quality-info>

Flushing the water mains doesn't do anything for the homeowner who
doesn't maintain the pipes between the water meter and house. If
there's a hole in this private service line, there will be dirt etc in
the water. If there is stones and silt in the drinking water, this is
the likely culprit.

I really doubt that Tom has "mud and stones" in his water. By the
time visible "mud and stones" appear, there should have been a wide
variety of other problems. If there is a leak you should be able to
see it by monitoring the water consumption at the meter. With the
main water valve turned off, there should be no flow indication on the
meter. Try some organized troubleshooting:
<https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/water-quality-troubleshooting>

Unfortunately, the neighbors and I have had some experience with holes
in the water mains and distribution pipes. There are plenty of ways
the water district can cause water quality problems. However, if Tom
is the only house on the street with the problem, I would look for
problems on the property.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 1/31/2024 12:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:12:44 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> I don't know either but there is a lot of web material on
>> backflushing home water systems to remove stones and silt so
>> someone has that problem. I just don't know about Bay Area
>> frequency or the significance of it.
>
> I don't believe Tom.
>
> In California, the municipal water services are required to flush the
> pipes annually. The problem they're trying to solve is not
> accumulated boulders or rocks. It's the build up of bacteria in the
> pipes that's the problem.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=flush+municipal+water+pipes+annually>
> Here's how my local water district does it:
>
> "System Flushing"
> <https://www.slvwd.com/your-water/pages/system-flushing>
> "Flushing water mains is a standard industry practice used to remove
> accumulated sediment and biofilm in the water distribution system by
> flushing water at high velocities primarily through fire hydrants.
> This high velocity flushing scours the inside of water mains. Flushing
> of mains is performed by certified Distribution system operators."
>
> In Aug 2020, we had the CZU Fire Complex burn down 900 buildings in
> our forest. The heat from the fire also melted a large number of HDPE
> plastic water pipes. Predictably, the system lost water pressure.
> Normally, the water pressure inside the pipes is higher than outside
> so there's no incursion of silt, crud, bugs, etc into the pipes.
> However, if there's a leak anywhere in the pipe or a major drop in
> water pressure, the pipe will backfill with crud. I don't want to
> detail the recovery procedure, but it did involve a tedious series of
> flushings and tests.
> <https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/czu-fire-water-quality-info>
>
> Flushing the water mains doesn't do anything for the homeowner who
> doesn't maintain the pipes between the water meter and house. If
> there's a hole in this private service line, there will be dirt etc in
> the water. If there is stones and silt in the drinking water, this is
> the likely culprit.
>
> I really doubt that Tom has "mud and stones" in his water. By the
> time visible "mud and stones" appear, there should have been a wide
> variety of other problems. If there is a leak you should be able to
> see it by monitoring the water consumption at the meter. With the
> main water valve turned off, there should be no flow indication on the
> meter. Try some organized troubleshooting:
> <https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/water-quality-troubleshooting>
>
> Unfortunately, the neighbors and I have had some experience with holes
> in the water mains and distribution pipes. There are plenty of ways
> the water district can cause water quality problems. However, if Tom
> is the only house on the street with the problem, I would look for
> problems on the property.
>

First he was complaining about the sewerage pipe, then he switched to
the water supply. I'd believe that he has silt and/or particulates built
up in the fixtures. mud and stones? no way.
--
Add xx to reply

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:58:40 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>You should move to reno. It's trump country, and you could get a
>veritable mansion for what you falling-down house in san leandro is worth.

Tom, good idea, but might be financially marginal. Multiple realtors
commissions will probably total $100,000 for both transactions. I'm
too lazy to check the changes in property taxes.

<https://www.zillow.com/home-values/13478/reno-nv/>
Average home value: $522,122

<https://www.zillow.com/home-values/13698/san-leandro-ca/>
Average home value: $820,475

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 13:03:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>I have had all of the sewer lines in my house replaced with plastic pipe all the way out to the middle of the street which had to be inspected. Now, there is enough mud in the water pipes that they all have to be replaced.

Hopefully, you're not drinking water from your sewer lines.

>They have been quoting me ridiculous prices so I keep putting it off. Right now only one hot water facet works correctly.

Amazing. Have you had your water tested for excessive lime (calcium
oxide, calcium hydroxide or calcium carbonate) content? That's what
usually wrecks faucets and water heaters. Think about installing a
water softener.

>Plus, my wife replaced all of my metal fittings so that they cannot be taken apart and the rocks cleaned out of them.

She did you a favor. Anyone who has all the problems with bicycle
maintenance will probably have similar problems with do it thyself
plumbing.

>It used to be that we received water from Hetch Hetchy and if the water level in the reservoir got too low as it would every five or so years, they would switch over to our local water and the pipes would all fill up with stones and mud. But for some reason they haven't been using Hetch Hetchy at all and we're stuck after those last year rains with mud and stones as an almost permanent problem.

Surface (river) water has minimal lime content. Well water is usually
loaded with lime. With Hetch Hetchy, which is surface water from snow
melt, some lime might not be natural:
<https://cawaterlibrary.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/hetch_hetchy_restoration_study_report.pdf>
"Normally, though, Hetch Hetchy is only treated with lime for
corrosion control, hypochlorination for primary disinfection,
chloramination for secondary disinfection, and fluoridation for the
prevention of dental cavities."

>Plus, they are talking about replacing the iron water pipes with copper. In Reno they use flexible plastic tubing of large diameter so that there is no problems with mud or stones blocking off the smaller diameter copper pipes.

Move to Reno, NV. That's where Trump declared victory in the 2016
Nevada caucus and where the "poorly educated" live happily every
after:
<https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-once-declared-victory-speech-180514474.html>

So, why didn't you complain about having to boil your drinking and
cooking water? If I found boulders in my tea, I certainly would be
doing some suplimentary filtering and disinfection. I'm not sure, but
I think you're lying (again).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 12:53:03 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>First he was complaining about the sewerage pipe, then he switched to
>the water supply. I'd believe that he has silt and/or particulates built
>up in the fixtures. mud and stones? no way.

Notice that Tom didn't mention anything about needing to boil his
drinking and cooking water. That would be #1 on my list of grievances
if I had similar problems.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 00:04:21 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>I very much doubt that Tom has mud or stones blocking his water pipes.
>I'd think that sort of problem that would be headline news, were it
>true. (Unless, that is, it happens _only_ to Tom, as usual!)

Yet another lie. Tom and San Leandro get their water from the Upper
San Leandro Reservoir:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_San_Leandro_Reservoir>
which is fed through the Mokelumne Aqueduct:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokelumne_Aqueduct
from the Pardee Reservoir:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardee_Dam>
with an alternate supply from the Sacramento River. Distribution in
the San Leandro area is by East Bay Municipal Utility District:
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality>
The 2nd item in the FAQ:
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/water-quality-faqs>
explains why there might be sediment or particles in the water:
"Since there are many causes of dirty water, EBMUD investigates each
complaint carefully. Please be prepared to answer the following
questions when reporting this problem at 1-866-403-2683."

I found nothing that involved Hetch Hetchy in Tom's water service.
Hetch Hetchy is in Yosemite:
<https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/hh.htm>

>In my area, water quality is measured and reported to customers in
>detail, down to the presence of trace compounds. It's a government
>requirement. Why would mud and stones not be noted? And even without
>that, how would stones make it through the pumping and filtration process?

It depends what Tom considers to be a stone. My guess(tm) is that he
has 1/2" ID pipes. The various faucet supply lines are either 3/8" or
1/2" ID which sets a maximum for the size of a stone that can pass to
the faucet.

Locally, we have had sand in the lines, which was caused by a break in
the distribution HDPE (plastic) pipes. We've also had green slime
every spring, caused by an overload of algae from Loch Lomond
reservoir. Both were fixed after a large number of people
simultaneously complained.

Long ago, the local water tanks were made from redwood, which gave the
water a slight red tint. When the tank was inspected, and the
inspection hatch was found to be unlatched, they found several dead
squirrel floating in the tank. Yech. We still have 2 redwood tanks
that are scheduled to be replaced. Fortunately, I get my water before
these 2 tanks. The required pipeline has already been installed:
<https://www.slvwd.com/home/pages/redwood-park-pipeline-replacement-project>
but replacement of the tanks has been delayed.

>But in the unlikely event that what Tom says is correct:
>Why on earth wouldn't such a "wealthy" guy move out of that hellhole?

I have a good guess why Tom hasn't moved, but no proof. Since I can't
prove much beyond my usual suspicious speculation, I won't post
anything.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed Jan 31 09:49:06 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:12:44 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >I don't know either but there is a lot of web material on
> >backflushing home water systems to remove stones and silt so
> >someone has that problem. I just don't know about Bay Area
> >frequency or the significance of it.
>
> I don't believe Tom.
>
> In California, the municipal water services are required to flush the
> pipes annually. The problem they're trying to solve is not
> accumulated boulders or rocks. It's the build up of bacteria in the
> pipes that's the problem.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=flush+municipal+water+pipes+annually>
> Here's how my local water district does it:
>
> "System Flushing"
> <https://www.slvwd.com/your-water/pages/system-flushing>
> "Flushing water mains is a standard industry practice used to remove
> accumulated sediment and biofilm in the water distribution system by
> flushing water at high velocities primarily through fire hydrants.
> This high velocity flushing scours the inside of water mains. Flushing
> of mains is performed by certified Distribution system operators."
>
> In Aug 2020, we had the CZU Fire Complex burn down 900 buildings in
> our forest. The heat from the fire also melted a large number of HDPE
> plastic water pipes. Predictably, the system lost water pressure.
> Normally, the water pressure inside the pipes is higher than outside
> so there's no incursion of silt, crud, bugs, etc into the pipes.
> However, if there's a leak anywhere in the pipe or a major drop in
> water pressure, the pipe will backfill with crud. I don't want to
> detail the recovery procedure, but it did involve a tedious series of
> flushings and tests.
> <https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/czu-fire-water-quality-info>
>
> Flushing the water mains doesn't do anything for the homeowner who
> doesn't maintain the pipes between the water meter and house. If
> there's a hole in this private service line, there will be dirt etc in
> the water. If there is stones and silt in the drinking water, this is
> the likely culprit.
>
> I really doubt that Tom has "mud and stones" in his water. By the
> time visible "mud and stones" appear, there should have been a wide
> variety of other problems. If there is a leak you should be able to
> see it by monitoring the water consumption at the meter. With the
> main water valve turned off, there should be no flow indication on the
> meter. Try some organized troubleshooting:
> <https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/water-quality-troubleshooting>
>
> Unfortunately, the neighbors and I have had some experience with holes
> in the water mains and distribution pipes. There are plenty of ways
> the water district can cause water quality problems. However, if Tom
> is the only house on the street with the problem, I would look for
> problems on the property.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I really don't care what you believe. You're so willing to lie about anything that you are the definition of unreliable. Rather than buy water from the SF source - Hetch Hetchy - they have been using the Alameda Reservoir which feeds into Lake Chabot and out into the public water system. After last years rains and the collapse of the hillsides and roads into tyhe water system mud and small stones are common enough and a "yearly flushing" does not washing this out. All of the water flow in my house now is low pressure except for the back washroom which is semifilterred with the hot water heater.

On Wed Jan 31 21:20:40 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 00:04:21 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >I very much doubt that Tom has mud or stones blocking his water pipes.
> >I'd think that sort of problem that would be headline news, were it
> >true. (Unless, that is, it happens _only_ to Tom, as usual!)
>
> Yet another lie. Tom and San Leandro get their water from the Upper
> San Leandro Reservoir:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_San_Leandro_Reservoir>
> which is fed through the Mokelumne Aqueduct:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokelumne_Aqueduct
> from the Pardee Reservoir:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardee_Dam>
> with an alternate supply from the Sacramento River. Distribution in
> the San Leandro area is by East Bay Municipal Utility District:
> <https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality>
> The 2nd item in the FAQ:
> <https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/water-quality-faqs>
> explains why there might be sediment or particles in the water:
> "Since there are many causes of dirty water, EBMUD investigates each
> complaint carefully. Please be prepared to answer the following
> questions when reporting this problem at 1-866-403-2683."
>
> I found nothing that involved Hetch Hetchy in Tom's water service.
> Hetch Hetchy is in Yosemite:
> <https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/hh.htm>
>
> >In my area, water quality is measured and reported to customers in
> >detail, down to the presence of trace compounds. It's a government
> >requirement. Why would mud and stones not be noted? And even without
> >that, how would stones make it through the pumping and filtration process?
>
> It depends what Tom considers to be a stone. My guess(tm) is that he
> has 1/2" ID pipes. The various faucet supply lines are either 3/8" or
> 1/2" ID which sets a maximum for the size of a stone that can pass to
> the faucet.
>
> Locally, we have had sand in the lines, which was caused by a break in
> the distribution HDPE (plastic) pipes. We've also had green slime
> every spring, caused by an overload of algae from Loch Lomond
> reservoir. Both were fixed after a large number of people
> simultaneously complained.
>
> Long ago, the local water tanks were made from redwood, which gave the
> water a slight red tint. When the tank was inspected, and the
> inspection hatch was found to be unlatched, they found several dead
> squirrel floating in the tank. Yech. We still have 2 redwood tanks
> that are scheduled to be replaced. Fortunately, I get my water before
> these 2 tanks. The required pipeline has already been installed:
> <https://www.slvwd.com/home/pages/redwood-park-pipeline-replacement-project>
> but replacement of the tanks has been delayed.
>
> >But in the unlikely event that what Tom says is correct:
> >Why on earth wouldn't such a "wealthy" guy move out of that hellhole?
>
> I have a good guess why Tom hasn't moved, but no proof. Since I can't
> prove much beyond my usual suspicious speculation, I won't post
> anything.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

As if by now we should be surprised that Jeff submits the claim that I have gravel in the water lines rather than 1 mm stones which build up and slowly choke off the water flow.

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 16:46:09 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>As if by now we should be surprised that Jeff submits the claim that I have gravel in the water lines rather than 1 mm stones which build up and slowly choke off the water flow.

You wrote "small stones and sand".
(Jan 18, 2023)
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/85qODEJbdFE/m/E0rSHskPAAAJ>
"...respond to my comment about getting small stones in my water that
jam the facets..."

You claimed that the "SOLIDS" are "over the top".
(Feb 15, 2024)
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/HaTfDhPmydY/m/gyeDjMvOAAAJ>
"THE SOLIDS in El Sobrante are over the top..."

You claimed that you have "small stones" in your water.
(Feb 16, 2024)
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/HaTfDhPmydY/m/f_HuTnalAQAJ>
"...they are so stupid that they don't even know what small stones in
the water line are not part of water quality; purity or safety of the
water itself is."

There were some other comments mentioning what you claim was coming
out of your domestic water supply, but nothing specific. I'm too lazy
to search for them now.

You might want to invest in a whole house water filter, which will
remove sand and sediment. The simple wire mesh type should be
sufficient to stop any boulders:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=water+filter+screen+mesh&tbm=isch>
<https://blog.boshart.com/choosing-a-proper-water-filter-mesh-element>
The down side is that the screen will probably require regular
cleaning and maintenance. When I had a rental house, I installed one
of these to deal with rust in the lines. It worked well for about 20
years. The mesh was cleaned about 4 times per year and replaced every
5 years. I rotated 4 or 5 screens and used a mild acid in an
ultrasonic cleaner to remove the accumulated lime.

Also, I'm still waiting for a photo of the sign that says "Danger - Do
Not Enter Deep Mud" at the bottom of Cull Canyon, which appears to be
one of your favorite riding spots:
(Jan 30, 2024)
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/6t1qDqyJtsk/m/4CEH46URAQAJ>
"I say that the water behind a dam has been replaced with loose mud
and the horses ass says that I am wrong! I go past there once or twice
a week and he doesn't even know where it is and he is telling us all
about it and showing pictures from four years ago? I show a sign that
says "Danger - Do Not Enter Deep Mud"."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed Jan 31 09:49:06 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:12:44 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >I don't know either but there is a lot of web material on
> >backflushing home water systems to remove stones and silt so
> >someone has that problem. I just don't know about Bay Area
> >frequency or the significance of it.
>
> I don't believe Tom.
>
> In California, the municipal water services are required to flush the
> pipes annually. The problem they're trying to solve is not
> accumulated boulders or rocks. It's the build up of bacteria in the
> pipes that's the problem.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=flush+municipal+water+pipes+annually>
> Here's how my local water district does it:
>
> "System Flushing"
> <https://www.slvwd.com/your-water/pages/system-flushing>
> "Flushing water mains is a standard industry practice used to remove
> accumulated sediment and biofilm in the water distribution system by
> flushing water at high velocities primarily through fire hydrants.
> This high velocity flushing scours the inside of water mains. Flushing
> of mains is performed by certified Distribution system operators."
>
> In Aug 2020, we had the CZU Fire Complex burn down 900 buildings in
> our forest. The heat from the fire also melted a large number of HDPE
> plastic water pipes. Predictably, the system lost water pressure.
> Normally, the water pressure inside the pipes is higher than outside
> so there's no incursion of silt, crud, bugs, etc into the pipes.
> However, if there's a leak anywhere in the pipe or a major drop in
> water pressure, the pipe will backfill with crud. I don't want to
> detail the recovery procedure, but it did involve a tedious series of
> flushings and tests.
> <https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/czu-fire-water-quality-info>
>
> Flushing the water mains doesn't do anything for the homeowner who
> doesn't maintain the pipes between the water meter and house. If
> there's a hole in this private service line, there will be dirt etc in
> the water. If there is stones and silt in the drinking water, this is
> the likely culprit.
>
> I really doubt that Tom has "mud and stones" in his water. By the
> time visible "mud and stones" appear, there should have been a wide
> variety of other problems. If there is a leak you should be able to
> see it by monitoring the water consumption at the meter. With the
> main water valve turned off, there should be no flow indication on the
> meter. Try some organized troubleshooting:
> <https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/water-quality-troubleshooting>
>
> Unfortunately, the neighbors and I have had some experience with holes
> in the water mains and distribution pipes. There are plenty of ways
> the water district can cause water quality problems. However, if Tom
> is the only house on the street with the problem, I would look for
> problems on the property.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Why are you citing a source that says "The increased flow rate scours the water pipe's inner walls and helps to remove build-up of naturally occurring debris and sediment." after you claimed that there is no debris or setiment?

On 2/22/2024 3:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wed Jan 31 09:49:06 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:12:44 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know either but there is a lot of web material on
>>> backflushing home water systems to remove stones and silt so
>>> someone has that problem. I just don't know about Bay Area
>>> frequency or the significance of it.
>>
>> I don't believe Tom.
>>
>> In California, the municipal water services are required to flush the
>> pipes annually. The problem they're trying to solve is not
>> accumulated boulders or rocks. It's the build up of bacteria in the
>> pipes that's the problem.
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=flush+municipal+water+pipes+annually>
>> Here's how my local water district does it:
>>
>> "System Flushing"
>> <https://www.slvwd.com/your-water/pages/system-flushing>
>> "Flushing water mains is a standard industry practice used to remove
>> accumulated sediment and biofilm in the water distribution system by
>> flushing water at high velocities primarily through fire hydrants.
>> This high velocity flushing scours the inside of water mains. Flushing
>> of mains is performed by certified Distribution system operators."
>>
>> In Aug 2020, we had the CZU Fire Complex burn down 900 buildings in
>> our forest. The heat from the fire also melted a large number of HDPE
>> plastic water pipes. Predictably, the system lost water pressure.
>> Normally, the water pressure inside the pipes is higher than outside
>> so there's no incursion of silt, crud, bugs, etc into the pipes.
>> However, if there's a leak anywhere in the pipe or a major drop in
>> water pressure, the pipe will backfill with crud. I don't want to
>> detail the recovery procedure, but it did involve a tedious series of
>> flushings and tests.
>> <https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/czu-fire-water-quality-info>
>>
>> Flushing the water mains doesn't do anything for the homeowner who
>> doesn't maintain the pipes between the water meter and house. If
>> there's a hole in this private service line, there will be dirt etc in
>> the water. If there is stones and silt in the drinking water, this is
>> the likely culprit.
>>
>> I really doubt that Tom has "mud and stones" in his water. By the
>> time visible "mud and stones" appear, there should have been a wide
>> variety of other problems. If there is a leak you should be able to
>> see it by monitoring the water consumption at the meter. With the
>> main water valve turned off, there should be no flow indication on the
>> meter. Try some organized troubleshooting:
>> <https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/water-quality-troubleshooting>
>>
>> Unfortunately, the neighbors and I have had some experience with holes
>> in the water mains and distribution pipes. There are plenty of ways
>> the water district can cause water quality problems. However, if Tom
>> is the only house on the street with the problem, I would look for
>> problems on the property.
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
>
>
>
> Why are you citing a source that says "The increased flow rate scours the water pipe's inner walls and helps to remove build-up of naturally occurring debris and sediment." after you claimed that there is no debris or setiment?

I don't know.
The usual system has catch basins for pulling debris from
water lines.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 16:22:46 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/22/2024 3:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Why are you citing a source that says "The increased flow rate scours the water pipe's inner walls and helps to remove build-up of naturally occurring debris and sediment." after you claimed that there is no debris or setiment?

Why are you ignoring possible solutions to help you with your polluted
water? Don't you want clean water, or would you prefer spending your
valuable time complaining to anyone who will listen?

Actually, I think you're lying about having sediment, debris, gravel,
turbidity or boulders in your water. Giving you free advice a waste
of my time. It's your problem, not mine. You're not committed to
taking anyone's advice. Let me know when you stop biting the hands of
those who are trying to help.

>I don't know.
>The usual system has catch basins for pulling debris from
>water lines.

Open systems, where the water runs in open channels instead of closed
pipes can collect considerable crud from the local environment.
However, there are other sources:
"5 Reasons Why You’re Finding Sediment in Your Water"
<https://www.angi.com/articles/i-have-sediment-my-water-and-do-not-know-where-it-coming.htm>

From my limited experience with domestic water, the major source of
crud in the water is between the water meter and the customers
faucets. Many years ago, when I bought a rental house, I discovered
it had hot and cold running mud, rust flakes and steel fragments in
the water. I don't recall how much money I spent on fixing that, but
it was not cheap. The broken pipe was on the city side of my water
meter, so they did the major excavation and pipe replacement. However,
I had to replace and/or clean just about everything in the ground and
in the house that had water moving in it.

We interrupt this waste of time for an off topic announcement. My
neighbors new emergency generator just arrived. I'll be back
eventually.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 17:22:22 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 16:22:46 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 2/22/2024 3:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Why are you citing a source that says "The increased flow rate scours the water pipe's inner walls and helps to remove build-up of naturally occurring debris and sediment." after you claimed that there is no debris or setiment?
>
>Why are you ignoring possible solutions to help you with your polluted
>water? Don't you want clean water, or would you prefer spending your
>valuable time complaining to anyone who will listen?
(...)

Ooops. My appologies Andrew. I thought I was replying to Tom and
accidentally replied to your comment. Too many things happening here
at the same time. I'll try not to do that again.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2/20/2024 10:07 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> You might want to invest in a whole house water filter, which will
> remove sand and sediment. The simple wire mesh type should be
> sufficient to stop any boulders:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=water+filter+screen+mesh&tbm=isch>
> <https://blog.boshart.com/choosing-a-proper-water-filter-mesh-element>
> The down side is that the screen will probably require regular
> cleaning and maintenance. When I had a rental house, I installed one
> of these to deal with rust in the lines. It worked well for about 20
> years. The mesh was cleaned about 4 times per year and replaced every
> 5 years. I rotated 4 or 5 screens and used a mild acid in an
> ultrasonic cleaner to remove the accumulated lime.

I've had those tiny stones clog my faucets on occasion. I'm on San Jose
Water. Removing the aerator and cleaning it out usually fixes it. In one
instance it clogged the line of a pullout kitchen faucet which was more
effort to clean. A whole house filter is a good idea. We're about to do
an addition which will involve a new water line from the street so it's
a good time to put in such a filter.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards