On Sat Mar 2 11:54:09 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/2/2024 5:39 AM, John B. wrote:
> >
> > Now stop and think a bit. Does your local bike shop try to con you
> > into buying stuff that you don't need for over rated prices?
>
> My current local bike shop does not do that. One younger salesperson has
> a slight tendency in that direction, but it is slight and I can easily
> ignore her.
>
> But other (now defunct) shops in our area absolutely tried that with me
> and with others I know. One example I described long ago: A teenage guy
> we knew pretty well asked my advice about buying a bike. I asked him to
> describe what type of riding he planned on doing. His described long
> relaxed rides in the country, perhaps heading to our hilly east to visit
> his girlfriend many miles away, possibly doing some camping. I gave
> advice based on that.
>
> The shop sold him a tight-geared lightweight racing bike that fit him
> poorly.
>
> Some shops will do that sort of thing.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Robinson's Wheel Works have been largely building bikes to order these days and some of these are shockingly expensice (one was $26,000). The frame was Carbon fiber tubes connected together with titanium lugs which reminds me that that is what I should have done with my Lemond Titanium rather than cutting it up and throwing it away. The group on that bike was Campagnolo wireless 12 speed electronic.

But perhaps half of the bikes in his shop are very high end steel and upper end groups. Unfortunately, like me, he isn't selling much (me - nothing) and is keeping the doors open with shop work. He is impecable in his shop work such as not putting carbon fiber parts like seat posts in metal frames because they can break at the junction and cutting seat tubes to the proper length. He has a complete file of stems so that he can fit it properly.

I have stopped believing in professional bike fitterrs when no two give you the same fit. The Basso Loto fits me nearly perfectly and apparently it has to do with the angles rather than the actual measurements There is enough variation in these that the Tommasini and the Fondriest do not fit properly but the Basso and Allez do. On a long hard climb with the Fondriest my hands are almost paralized with pain. It is very hard to do long hard climbs around here now since most of the roads are washed out. And it doesn't appear as if the state has any intentions of repairing them. In one place they haven't even repaired the cracks in a road and it causing a break. You have to pass these areas in the uphill side and they are the ONLY access to some homes. On this road they were forced to repair one section properly but if you look over the edge of the road it is scary with a landslide all of the way down to the reservoir. (300 feet or so). I'm not sure that part of the repairs will hold since it is made by driving steel beams down into the slope and pouring a concrete wall. The fall is so steep that I can't see how they could have gotten the beams into solid bedrock. But it appears solid from a bicycle. This was a road that they approved driving double semi's over for 15-20 years while replacing the sewer pipes for the city.

Every engineer in town objected to that. Particularly the one's that live in that area. But they were overruled by the city "engineer" until that road collapsed of its own merely from runoff. The access road from the other direction had at lead one home have the backyard fall off of the cliff onto the road and you can now see the bsse of the home from the road below. Imagine running heavy trucks up from that direction for the next 15-20 years? That home must be a total loss since the cliffside is too steep to make reasonable repairs.

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Fri, 01 Mar 2024 16:21:29 -0500 schrieb Radey Shouman
> <shouman@comcast.net>:
>
>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 17:55:04 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>
> ...
>
>>>> Some woman wanted a new bike with disk brakes and she didn't give
>>>> Krygowski a reason. How dare she.
>>>
>>> The purpose of my little ,story above was to try and demonstrate how
>>> really negligible brakes are in the scheme of thing.
>>>
>>> A German (I believe) bloke has posted about riding discs in ice in
>>> snow, for example. Would he abandon riding a bicycle if there were no
>>> disc brakes made? I doubt it. History shows that people that want to
>>> ride a bicycle do ride a bicycle.... "Mr. Muzi, and I'm sure others,
>>> have been known to ride bicycles with no brakes at all :-)
>>
>> I think you refer to Herr Strobl.
>
> ?? You may call me Wolfgang, master Shouman. :-)
>
> I certainly haven't posted about riding with discs brakes in ice and
> snow, because I haven't ridden on ice and though snow for almost two
> decades, now. But I commuted a lot by bike til 2011, on ice and snow
> during winter, since 1978 - using rim brakes. Disc brakes didn't exist
> during most of that period.
>
> There are many failure modes of rim brakes, when riding on ice and snow,
> I experienced most of these during those times. Now that I have the
> choice between disc and rim brake and experience with both, I believe
> that disc brakes would have had quite an advantage on ice and snow.
> Alas, due to an injury, I have no choice anymore. Being retired, I
> fortunately also don't have a need for riding on ice and snow, either.
>
I enjoy it, the MTB and Gravel bike clearly also have the tires to grip in
snow, though the CX bike had canti which meant you might have to take stuff
a bit more carefully, though it handles snow better than the commute bike,
which though a old MTB so disks it’s tires are designed for road and wander
on snow.

I had a fun MTB ride last winter, in wet snow not impossible without disks
but would have been less fun, and potentially in places hike a bike or
crash into snow bank.

I found the road salt would do a number on commuter type bikes with rim
brakes ie pads would get worn away very quickly.
>
>> I think that even if he might not,
>> others might opt to just take the bus when it snowed,
>
> An so I did, after getting that injury. But waiting in the cold for
> hours isn't joy. So I prefered having a 45 minute workout during winter,
> as long as I could, instead of freezing my ass off while walking and
> waiting more than an hour for train and bus, or sometimes even more than
> two hours.
>
>
>> instead of riding
>> the bike.
>
> Since 2011, I didn't ride outside during winter or to my workplace,
> anymore. But I still profit up to today from the fitness I aquired from
> all those whole year intense bicycle rides while commuting by bike over
> decades.
>
>
>> I confess that when it looks likely to rain heavily or snow,
>> I tend either to not ride or at least not ride very far and do it
>> slowly.
>
> The distance of my commute didn't change in winter. :)
>
> The ascent to our campus was notorious for cars getting stuck there. And
> if there was a bus or truck that got stuck across the road, things often
> didn't work for a long time. No problem getting past it on my bike. On
> days like that after the first day of snow, I was always one of the
> people who arrived on time for meetings.
>
Roger Merriman

zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/2/2024 12:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/2/2024 6:58 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>> On 3/1/2024 10:03 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Unless you have spare wheelset’s the it’s fairly hard to find
>>>> disadvantages
>>>> for disks they are a touch heavier, less than 100g between them on
>>>> groupset
>>>> that support both. Which really isn’t something measurable in terms of
>>>> performance, ie not even marginal gains, at least for most even racers.
>>>>
>>>> Most of the disadvantages boil down to it’s different to what I’m
>> used to
>>>> which is a valid argument.
>>>
>>> +1
>>> 'well-thought and well-written'
>>>
>>> Other than the possibility of obsoleting every other set of wheels one
>>> owns, there are no real disadvantages to disc brakes.
>>
>> I'd say obsoleting every other set of wheels counts as a significant
>> disadvantage!
>
> Which is why I haven't made the leap on the road.

Indeed the Richmond/Regents park types ie folks who ride competitively and
have spare wheelsets you’d see nice shiny new rim brake road race bikes
until fairly recently, else where disks (new bikes) had taken over which
makes perfect sense disks favour in many way the more casual or commuters
types, of which I am one!
>
>>
>> But my main point has not been disadvantages of discs. It's been that
>> for almost all road cyclists, there's no significant advantage. That's
>> why I point out that I've never heard road cyclists complaints about
>> their rim brakes.
>
> The same could be said for _any_ performance upgrade. A Specialized
> S-works Tarmac 8 offers a significant performance advantage over a
> Canondale CAAD13. Will the average rider be able to tell the difference?
> likely not.
>
>>
>> In fact, it might be interesting for someone (Jeff?) to scour back
>> through decades of pre-disc postings here to see how many complaints
>> there were about badly performing rim brakes. (I won't bother looking,
>> since I'm not convinced that needle is in this haystack. )
>>
>>> Yes, arguments
>>> have been made that they are more difficult to set up and require more
>>> maintenance - this is not my experience other than the initial
>>> experience with hydraulics (which was no problem since I've done my own
>>> brake work on my cars for the past 45 years). Quite frankly, I've been
>>> frustrated setting (and resetting, and resetting, and resetting....) toe
>>> and camber on cantilevers as the pads wear far more than any issues I've
>>> had with disc brakes.
>>
>> Cantilevers do take some fussing to get right. So many degrees of
>> freedom!
>
> You call it 'degrees of freedom'. I call it "pain in the ass set-up'.
>
>> But IME, once set they're good for a long, long time. When they
>> start to squeal, I re-adjust toe in, being very careful to change only
>> that angle.
>
> and revisit the pain in the ass set up. After 7 years of disc brakes on
> my mountain bikes, the worst incident was a small chunk of detritus
> caught in the caliper on my hard tail that took a 5 minute trailside
> removal/reattachment of the caliper. Readjusting disc calipers, in my
> experience, is easily orders of magnitude simpler and more reliable that
> canti adjustments.
>
>>
>
Other than occasionally needing to be bleed, which seems to last many
years, I’m told some DH racers using Dot fluid do need to bleed regularly
but they are outliers.

But in the decades I’ve had disk bikes all I’ve ever done or needed to do
was change pads, i did need to get the rotor straightened last year which
was a first for me! All other times it wasn’t the disk calliper but the
wheel hub/axel needing servicing etc and starting to rub.

And bleeding is infrequent enough to get the bike shop to do it as I’m no
buying tools to be used every 5 years or so!
>

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/1/2024 4:11 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>
>>> It's not happening for the usual reasons. Consumers are being told by
>>> advertising and shop salesmen that "Discs are way better. They stop
>>> you faster" or other nonsense. And almost all new bikes come with
>>> discs. Few consumers have the background knowledge to even question
>>> the "better" claim.
>>
>> Those who actually use disk brakes seem to disagree with yout.
>
> On road bikes? I'm not hearing it. Granted, most of my riding buddies
> still use rim brakes. One of the few on disks mentioned that it took the
> shop where he bought it multiple tries go stop weird noises from the
> rear disc. One tourist who we put up overnight complained about pads
> wearing out rapidly during one hilly tour. Others haven't said anything
> about their disc brakes at all.
>
Which also suggests how self selecting you are, it’s a healthy mix I see
both at my club and others and riding around with mix of bikes of different
ages and technology.

Bike clubs being what they are, folks tend to buy new bikes so disks are
more common than rims.

And yes I remember the tourist story it’s a tale of someone being
unfamiliar and frankly a bit crap at bike maintenance ie checking wear, on
road you’d get few thousand miles per set, even on the gravel bike I get
close on 1000 miles even in wet winter weather.

Ie takes a bit of neglect over quite some time and distance to do so.

>>>
>>> Again, I was talking mostly about road bikes. Do all your road bikes
>>> have discs? Have you really thrown out the ones that have rim brakes?
>>
>> I have explained several times to you specifically that I am cheap,
>> lazy, and hate change. Hence I have no bikes with disk brakes. But
>> it's not all about me, is it? It's also not all about you.
>
> It's not _all_ about you, of course. But you're one of countless data
> points indicating that rim brakes work fine for almost all road
> cyclists. If that were false, you'd have switched, whatever your
> personal traits.
>
No it shows that he has evaluated the pros and cons and decided for him to
stick to rims, as he’d need to change any spare wheels and so on as racers
do tend to have.

Let alone any other preferences, people used rims brakes on MTB as well and
it is possible even in that situation to use rims, with the Gravel bike I
could ride everything on even the fairly woeful cantilevers but it was a
lot of work both cognitive and physically disks give the bike the ability
to handle wet muddy chutes etc with more grace, even off road it’s not
binary.

Roger Merriman

On Sat, 02 Mar 2024 15:08:33 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Sat, 2 Mar 2024 11:54:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 3/2/2024 5:39 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> Now stop and think a bit. Does your local bike shop try to con you
>>> into buying stuff that you don't need for over rated prices?
>>
>>My current local bike shop does not do that. One younger salesperson has
>>a slight tendency in that direction, but it is slight and I can easily
>>ignore her.
>>
>>But other (now defunct) shops in our area absolutely tried that with me
>>and with others I know. One example I described long ago: A teenage guy
>>we knew pretty well asked my advice about buying a bike. I asked him to
>>describe what type of riding he planned on doing. His described long
>>relaxed rides in the country, perhaps heading to our hilly east to visit
>>his girlfriend many miles away, possibly doing some camping. I gave
>>advice based on that.
>>
>>The shop sold him a tight-geared lightweight racing bike that fit him
>>poorly.
>>
>>Some shops will do that sort of thing.
>
>
>Another undocumented anecdote that he apparently believes proves his
>point.
>
>Fact is that people buy things for all sorts of reasons, not just
>because they believe the things will be a functional improvement. Much
>of it has to do with things like vanity, very loosely defined.
>
>For instance, why do people buy expensive bicycling jerseys for the
>fancy logo? They do the same thing with jackets and shirts that have
>their favorite football, baseball, or basketball teams.
>
>..or why do people who belong to bicycle groups buy shirts and jackets
>with their club's name and logo on them? I see them out riding all
>decked out in matching shirts or jackets... as in "look at me, all
>these people are my friends, and I belong.

Well, cyclists even ride naked
https://billypenn.com/2023/08/26/philly-naked-bike-ride-photos-2/

and looking at some of those body's the club jerseys would be a Great
Improvement :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 3/1/2024 4:11 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>
>>> It's not happening for the usual reasons. Consumers are being told by
>>> advertising and shop salesmen that "Discs are way better. They stop
>>> you faster" or other nonsense. And almost all new bikes come with
>>> discs. Few consumers have the background knowledge to even question
>>> the "better" claim.
>> Those who actually use disk brakes seem to disagree with yout.
>
> On road bikes? I'm not hearing it. Granted, most of my riding buddies
> still use rim brakes. One of the few on disks mentioned that it took
> the shop where he bought it multiple tries go stop weird noises from
> the rear disc. One tourist who we put up overnight complained about
> pads wearing out rapidly during one hilly tour. Others haven't said
> anything about their disc brakes at all.

Wolfgang Strobl, Jay Beattie, and perhaps others I forget seemed to
think them useful.

I don't understand what you're complaining about. It seems very unlikely
you'll ever buy a new road bike, why should you care whether rim brakes
would be an option on a hypothetical purchase?

>>> Again, I was talking mostly about road bikes. Do all your road bikes
>>> have discs? Have you really thrown out the ones that have rim brakes?
>> I have explained several times to you specifically that I am cheap,
>> lazy, and hate change. Hence I have no bikes with disk brakes. But
>> it's not all about me, is it? It's also not all about you.
>
> It's not _all_ about you, of course. But you're one of countless data
> points indicating that rim brakes work fine for almost all road
> cyclists. If that were false, you'd have switched, whatever your
> personal traits.

If I were to buy a new bicycle, I would prefer to buy one with disk
brakes. If I had to ride my bicycle every day, regardless of the
weather, I would buy a bicycle with disk brakes.

Rim brakes work fine until they don't, at which point I try not be on my
bike. When it's raining hard enough that there is a continuous film of
running water on the road, rim brakes do not work well.

Chromed steel rims worked fine until they didn't, like rod brakes and spoon brakes and
dragging your feet on the road ...

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 3/1/2024 4:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
>> I confess that when it looks likely to rain heavily or snow,
>> I tend either to not ride or at least not ride very far and do it
>> slowly.
>
> Me too these days, and I'm sure that's very common.
>
> For me, exceptions were mostly riding home from work on days I guessed
> wrong about weather, and riding on long tours when one pretty much has
> to accept whatever weather comes along.

One thing I don't understand about the perennial discussion of whether
to wear work clothes on the bike -- how do you never guess wrong about
the weather on the way *to* work? That has certainly happened to me,
and I would have been quite unhappy to sit in the office drip drying all
morning.

On 3/2/2024 5:23 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> But in the decades I’ve had disk bikes all I’ve ever done or needed to do
> was change pads, i did need to get the rotor straightened last year which
> was a first for me! All other times it wasn’t the disk calliper but the
> wheel hub/axel needing servicing etc and starting to rub.
>
> And bleeding is infrequent enough to get the bike shop to do it as I’m no
> buying tools to be used every 5 years or so!

Well, with the cantilevers on my Cannondale, here's what I do to
increase toe-in when they squeal: Insert 6mm allen wrench into the pad's
mounting screw head with the long end of the wrench as near horizontal
as possible, and hold it very steady; use a box-end wrench to loosen the
nut on that screw; carefully swing the allen wrench horizontally to add
a bit of toe in; tighten the nut. Done. And that will last about a year
before needing done again. The shoes themselves will last for many, many
years.

If the squealing problem or any other problem arose on a long ride or on
a distant vacation, I could do it using the tools I had on the bike.
I've never taken that bike to a bike shop for any brake work - or any
other work, come to think of it.

But whatever. We're all allowed to buy the style of brake we prefer.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/2/2024 8:12 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
> I don't understand what you're complaining about. It seems very unlikely
> you'll ever buy a new road bike, why should you care whether rim brakes
> would be an option on a hypothetical purchase?

I'm mostly reacting to the ideas that "Disc brakes are SO much better!"
and "You GOTTA get disc brakes." It's just not true for the vast
majority of riders.

I'm also displeased by the lack of standards for disc pads, and the
plethora of incompatible shapes and sizes. I can envision someone ten
years from now having a bike that's useless (temporarily or permanently)
because he was unlucky enough to buy a bike with disc brakes whose pads
are unavailable (temporarily or permanently).

>
>>>> Again, I was talking mostly about road bikes. Do all your road bikes
>>>> have discs? Have you really thrown out the ones that have rim brakes?
>>> I have explained several times to you specifically that I am cheap,
>>> lazy, and hate change. Hence I have no bikes with disk brakes. But
>>> it's not all about me, is it? It's also not all about you.
>>
>> It's not _all_ about you, of course. But you're one of countless data
>> points indicating that rim brakes work fine for almost all road
>> cyclists. If that were false, you'd have switched, whatever your
>> personal traits.
>
> If I were to buy a new bicycle, I would prefer to buy one with disk
> brakes. If I had to ride my bicycle every day, regardless of the
> weather, I would buy a bicycle with disk brakes.

Yes, but the fact that you continue riding with rim brakes indicates
your rim brakes work well for the riding you actually do. I'm betting
they have always worked well enough for you.

> Rim brakes work fine until they don't...

Isn't that true for every manufactured item in the world?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/2/2024 8:16 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 3/1/2024 4:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>
>>> I confess that when it looks likely to rain heavily or snow,
>>> I tend either to not ride or at least not ride very far and do it
>>> slowly.
>>
>> Me too these days, and I'm sure that's very common.
>>
>> For me, exceptions were mostly riding home from work on days I guessed
>> wrong about weather, and riding on long tours when one pretty much has
>> to accept whatever weather comes along.
>
> One thing I don't understand about the perennial discussion of whether
> to wear work clothes on the bike -- how do you never guess wrong about
> the weather on the way *to* work? That has certainly happened to me,
> and I would have been quite unhappy to sit in the office drip drying all
> morning.

I'll switch to past tense, since I'm retired.

So how did I never guess wrong about weather on the way to work? Well, I
had a few times when I got caught in rain on the way in, but not many.
It was less than half an hour's ride, and I was careful about checking
the weather. A more frequent problem was when I drove the car in because
I thought it would rain, but it didn't, so I missed the ride.

My preferred rain protection was and is a rain cape. With full fenders,
a front fender flap and perhaps a bit of extra protection from my
handlebar bag, I never arrived with normal clothing dripping. My biggest
worry was for the contents of my cloth briefcase on the back rack. I had
a tough plastic bag that covered it when it rained, but I sometimes
worried the contents would somehow get wet.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Am Sat, 2 Mar 2024 09:11:59 -0600 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:

>On 3/2/2024 3:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

>> "I didn't know that the fork wasn't strong enough
>> for this type of brake "

(and the bike shop mechanic who installed the brake didn't know either).

>
>Could you elaborate on that? The mounting point on the fork
>is the same for either caliper.

Sure the two mounting points are the same. But the Magura HS33 isn't a
cantilever brake. It works well even withouth a brake booster under
normal conditions, but fails in a hard to debug way, given some
difficult conditions, when braking with a wet or icy rim on a surface
that has enough grip. Say, for example, braking downhill during winter
on a cleaned and heavily salted road. In that case, you need to apply a
lot more force to get sufficient deceleration. Problem: In this case,
both fork legs of the steel fork rotated far enough to limit the force
of the brake caliper. Hard to detect even if you know what to look out
for.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/IMG-2461.jpeg>

The bike shop had fitted what looked like a brake booster on superficial
inspection, but wasn't one. Unfortunately, I was quite busy during those
years and had no time for more than a cursory inspection. If I'd had the
time, I would have done the work myself and acquired the necessary
knowledge beforehand.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/2/2024 8:12 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>
>> I don't understand what you're complaining about. It seems very unlikely
>> you'll ever buy a new road bike, why should you care whether rim brakes
>> would be an option on a hypothetical purchase?
>
> I'm mostly reacting to the ideas that "Disc brakes are SO much better!"
> and "You GOTTA get disc brakes." It's just not true for the vast
> majority of riders.
>
That came from the largely non racers who used disks and said my next bike
should have these after all the disadvantages largely boils down to its new
for most folks.

Ie technology moves on.

> I'm also displeased by the lack of standards for disc pads, and the
> plethora of incompatible shapes and sizes. I can envision someone ten
> years from now having a bike that's useless (temporarily or permanently)
> because he was unlucky enough to buy a bike with disc brakes whose pads
> are unavailable (temporarily or permanently).
>
>>
This is mostly on the MTB side where brakes and shifters are separate even
now is multiple companies making disk brakes, road side ignoring cable
disks which are old MTB disks given a new burst of life again, such as the
BB7 which is decades old.

But road disks are made by Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo and as such only a
handful of pads, so like shimano will,occasionally update the mix of the
material every few years but it’s cross compatible ie it’s shape hasn’t
changed. And certainly for shimano for the last few years the pads are the
same from Dura Ace to Tiagra and GRX and largely the same calliper’s though
is some divergence with the newer models though pads are still the same ie
finned or un finned.

Disk have been around on The MTB side for many decades I’m not aware of any
disk that the pads have become unavailable, in all these years. Many pad
designs have outlasted the brakes being used on other models and so on.

And certainly with cartridge pads you needed the same brand or they
wouldn’t fit from memory, unlike the more simple blocks.

>>>>> Again, I was talking mostly about road bikes. Do all your road bikes
>>>>> have discs? Have you really thrown out the ones that have rim brakes?
>>>> I have explained several times to you specifically that I am cheap,
>>>> lazy, and hate change. Hence I have no bikes with disk brakes. But
>>>> it's not all about me, is it? It's also not all about you.
>>>
>>> It's not _all_ about you, of course. But you're one of countless data
>>> points indicating that rim brakes work fine for almost all road
>>> cyclists. If that were false, you'd have switched, whatever your
>>> personal traits.
>>
>> If I were to buy a new bicycle, I would prefer to buy one with disk
>> brakes. If I had to ride my bicycle every day, regardless of the
>> weather, I would buy a bicycle with disk brakes.
>
> Yes, but the fact that you continue riding with rim brakes indicates
> your rim brakes work well for the riding you actually do. I'm betting
> they have always worked well enough for you.
>
>> Rim brakes work fine until they don't...
>
> Isn't that true for every manufactured item in the world?
>
Wasn’t that difficult to find rim brakes limits particularly if it wasn’t
perfectly dry roads, disks are more consistent.

Roger Merriman

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Sat, 2 Mar 2024 09:11:59 -0600 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:
>
>> On 3/2/2024 3:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>
>>> "I didn't know that the fork wasn't strong enough
>>> for this type of brake "
>
> (and the bike shop mechanic who installed the brake didn't know either).
>
>>
>> Could you elaborate on that? The mounting point on the fork
>> is the same for either caliper.
>
> Sure the two mounting points are the same. But the Magura HS33 isn't a
> cantilever brake. It works well even withouth a brake booster under
> normal conditions, but fails in a hard to debug way, given some
> difficult conditions, when braking with a wet or icy rim on a surface
> that has enough grip. Say, for example, braking downhill during winter
> on a cleaned and heavily salted road. In that case, you need to apply a
> lot more force to get sufficient deceleration. Problem: In this case,
> both fork legs of the steel fork rotated far enough to limit the force
> of the brake caliper. Hard to detect even if you know what to look out
> for.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/IMG-2461.jpeg>
>
> The bike shop had fitted what looked like a brake booster on superficial
> inspection, but wasn't one. Unfortunately, I was quite busy during those
> years and had no time for more than a cursory inspection. If I'd had the
> time, I would have done the work myself and acquired the necessary
> knowledge beforehand.
>
>
Ah interesting while I have seen them in the flesh never used one. I
believe they have found a niche for some urban bikes.

Roger Merriman

On 3/3/2024 7:23 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Sat, 2 Mar 2024 09:11:59 -0600 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:
>>
>>> On 3/2/2024 3:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>
>>>> "I didn't know that the fork wasn't strong enough
>>>> for this type of brake "
>>
>> (and the bike shop mechanic who installed the brake didn't know either).
>>
>>>
>>> Could you elaborate on that? The mounting point on the fork
>>> is the same for either caliper.
>>
>> Sure the two mounting points are the same. But the Magura HS33 isn't a
>> cantilever brake. It works well even withouth a brake booster under
>> normal conditions, but fails in a hard to debug way, given some
>> difficult conditions, when braking with a wet or icy rim on a surface
>> that has enough grip. Say, for example, braking downhill during winter
>> on a cleaned and heavily salted road. In that case, you need to apply a
>> lot more force to get sufficient deceleration. Problem: In this case,
>> both fork legs of the steel fork rotated far enough to limit the force
>> of the brake caliper. Hard to detect even if you know what to look out
>> for.
>>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/IMG-2461.jpeg>
>>
>> The bike shop had fitted what looked like a brake booster on superficial
>> inspection, but wasn't one. Unfortunately, I was quite busy during those
>> years and had no time for more than a cursory inspection. If I'd had the
>> time, I would have done the work myself and acquired the necessary
>> knowledge beforehand.
>>
>>
> Ah interesting while I have seen them in the flesh never used one. I
> believe they have found a niche for some urban bikes.
>
> Roger Merriman
>
>

I had one on the rear of my Ti hardtail. Even with Vbrakes the seat stay
flex was noticable to the point that I wasn't comfortable with the
braking. The brake booster stiffened it up nicely.

On 3/3/2024 7:23 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Sat, 2 Mar 2024 09:11:59 -0600 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:
>>
>>> On 3/2/2024 3:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>
>>>> "I didn't know that the fork wasn't strong enough
>>>> for this type of brake "
>>
>> (and the bike shop mechanic who installed the brake didn't know either).
>>
>>>
>>> Could you elaborate on that? The mounting point on the fork
>>> is the same for either caliper.
>>
>> Sure the two mounting points are the same. But the Magura HS33 isn't a
>> cantilever brake. It works well even withouth a brake booster under
>> normal conditions, but fails in a hard to debug way, given some
>> difficult conditions, when braking with a wet or icy rim on a surface
>> that has enough grip. Say, for example, braking downhill during winter
>> on a cleaned and heavily salted road. In that case, you need to apply a
>> lot more force to get sufficient deceleration. Problem: In this case,
>> both fork legs of the steel fork rotated far enough to limit the force
>> of the brake caliper. Hard to detect even if you know what to look out
>> for.
>>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/IMG-2461.jpeg>
>>
>> The bike shop had fitted what looked like a brake booster on superficial
>> inspection, but wasn't one. Unfortunately, I was quite busy during those
>> years and had no time for more than a cursory inspection. If I'd had the
>> time, I would have done the work myself and acquired the necessary
>> knowledge beforehand.
>>
>>
> Ah interesting while I have seen them in the flesh never used one. I
> believe they have found a niche for some urban bikes.

My best riding friend at the time (1990s) installed hydraulic rim brakes
on his tandem at one point. For some reason that I don't recall, he
didn't like them and returned them very quickly.

He had a tendency to play with new, shiny technology. As an example, for
a while he and his wife had microphones and earpieces so they could talk
more easily while riding the tandem. My wife and I have never needed
such a thing.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/3/2024 7:23 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>> Am Sat, 2 Mar 2024 09:11:59 -0600 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:
>>>
>>>> On 3/2/2024 3:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "I didn't know that the fork wasn't strong enough
>>>>> for this type of brake "
>>>
>>> (and the bike shop mechanic who installed the brake didn't know either).
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could you elaborate on that? The mounting point on the fork
>>>> is the same for either caliper.
>>>
>>> Sure the two mounting points are the same. But the Magura HS33 isn't a
>>> cantilever brake. It works well even withouth a brake booster under
>>> normal conditions, but fails in a hard to debug way, given some
>>> difficult conditions, when braking with a wet or icy rim on a surface
>>> that has enough grip. Say, for example, braking downhill during winter
>>> on a cleaned and heavily salted road. In that case, you need to apply a
>>> lot more force to get sufficient deceleration. Problem: In this case,
>>> both fork legs of the steel fork rotated far enough to limit the force
>>> of the brake caliper. Hard to detect even if you know what to look out
>>> for.
>>>
>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/IMG-2461.jpeg>
>>>
>>> The bike shop had fitted what looked like a brake booster on superficial
>>> inspection, but wasn't one. Unfortunately, I was quite busy during those
>>> years and had no time for more than a cursory inspection. If I'd had the
>>> time, I would have done the work myself and acquired the necessary
>>> knowledge beforehand.
>>>
>>>
>> Ah interesting while I have seen them in the flesh never used one. I
>> believe they have found a niche for some urban bikes.
>
> My best riding friend at the time (1990s) installed hydraulic rim brakes
> on his tandem at one point. For some reason that I don't recall, he
> didn't like them and returned them very quickly.

I believe they are very good but are rather on/off feeling they where
perhaps still are popular in trial type riding, but never used them and
they never got very popular do have their fans still though!

>
> He had a tendency to play with new, shiny technology. As an example, for
> a while he and his wife had microphones and earpieces so they could talk
> more easily while riding the tandem. My wife and I have never needed
> such a thing.
>
They were always a stopgap technology with the rise of disks similar to
cable disks and why both are selling models that a good few decades old.

Though cable disks meant you could upgrade so has that advantage.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/2/2024 5:23 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> But in the decades I’ve had disk bikes all I’ve ever done or needed to do
>> was change pads, i did need to get the rotor straightened last year which
>> was a first for me! All other times it wasn’t the disk calliper but the
>> wheel hub/axel needing servicing etc and starting to rub.
>>
>> And bleeding is infrequent enough to get the bike shop to do it as I’m no
>> buying tools to be used every 5 years or so!
>
> Well, with the cantilevers on my Cannondale, here's what I do to
> increase toe-in when they squeal: Insert 6mm allen wrench into the pad's
> mounting screw head with the long end of the wrench as near horizontal
> as possible, and hold it very steady; use a box-end wrench to loosen the
> nut on that screw; carefully swing the allen wrench horizontally to add
> a bit of toe in; tighten the nut. Done. And that will last about a year
> before needing done again. The shoes themselves will last for many, many
> years.
>
I never even with bikes that where road only had pads that lasted years,
they generally got worn down particularly on with wet gritty roads, road
salt in particular could trash them very quickly. Ie I’d not get though a
winter on same set of pads.

> If the squealing problem or any other problem arose on a long ride or on
> a distant vacation, I could do it using the tools I had on the bike.
> I've never taken that bike to a bike shop for any brake work - or any
> other work, come to think of it.

Well that’s the thing with rim brakes they do need adjustment. I preferred
out of them all dual pivots, never used the direct mount ones as I moved to
disks before they arrived.

I choose as to which jobs I’ll do and worth my effort. Stuff I do
frequently find, stuff every few years and needs X tool I’ll use the bike
shop within walking distance.
>
> But whatever. We're all allowed to buy the style of brake we prefer.
>
Roger Merriman

On Sat Mar 2 12:23:12 2024 zen cycle wrote:
> On 3/2/2024 12:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/2/2024 6:58 AM, zen cycle wrote:
> > > On 3/1/2024 10:03 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Unless you have spare wheelset?s the it?s fairly hard to find
> > >> disadvantages
> > >> for disks they are a touch heavier, less than 100g between them on
> > >> groupset
> > >> that support both. Which really isn?t something measurable in terms of
> > >> performance, ie not even marginal gains, at least for most even racers.
> > >>
> > >> Most of the disadvantages boil down to it?s different to what I?m
> > used to
> > >> which is a valid argument.
> > >
> > > +1
> > > 'well-thought and well-written'
> > >
> > > Other than the possibility of obsoleting every other set of wheels one
> > > owns, there are no real disadvantages to disc brakes.
> >
> > I'd say obsoleting every other set of wheels counts as a significant
> > disadvantage!
>
> Which is why I haven't made the leap on the road.
>
> >
> > But my main point has not been disadvantages of discs. It's been that
> > for almost all road cyclists, there's no significant advantage. That's
> > why I point out that I've never heard road cyclists complaints about
> > their rim brakes.
>
> The same could be said for _any_ performance upgrade. A Specialized
> S-works Tarmac 8 offers a significant performance advantage over a
> Canondale CAAD13. Will the average rider be able to tell the difference?
> likely not.
>
> >
> > In fact, it might be interesting for someone (Jeff?) to scour back
> > through decades of pre-disc postings here to see how many complaints
> > there were about badly performing rim brakes. (I won't bother looking,
> > since I'm not convinced that needle is in this haystack. )
> >
> > > Yes, arguments
> > > have been made that they are more difficult to set up and require more
> > > maintenance - this is not my experience other than the initial
> > > experience with hydraulics (which was no problem since I've done my own
> > > brake work on my cars for the past 45 years). Quite frankly, I've been
> > > frustrated setting (and resetting, and resetting, and resetting....) toe
> > > and camber on cantilevers as the pads wear far more than any issues I've
> > > had with disc brakes.
> >
> > Cantilevers do take some fussing to get right. So many degrees of
> > freedom!
>
> You call it 'degrees of freedom'. I call it "pain in the ass set-up'.
>
> > But IME, once set they're good for a long, long time. When they
> > start to squeal, I re-adjust toe in, being very careful to change only
> > that angle.
>
> and revisit the pain in the ass set up. After 7 years of disc brakes on
> my mountain bikes, the worst incident was a small chunk of detritus
> caught in the caliper on my hard tail that took a 5 minute trailside
> removal/reattachment of the caliper. Readjusting disc calipers, in my
> experience, is easily orders of magnitude simpler and more reliable that
> canti adjustments.
>
> >
>

Last night me and the wife watched the 2024 Omloop. The disadvantages of discs couldn't be plainer as favored riders had to not have a wheel replaced but an entire bike replaced because of the difficulty of replacing a disc wheel. They went from a top contender to trying to beet the broom wagon over the line so that they cvould collect their finishing bonus.

While the sport rider doesn't need to worry about losing time he does have to worry about getting home before the rainstorm. we just had an eigth of an inch of hail. Not fun on a bike.

I just brought home a set of Bontrager Race Lites. The previous owner serviced them before he put them into storage. So I had to set the tension on the the axles properly. they have loose bearings with clean grease in them. Then change the tires over to the new wheels that are perfectly straight and round.

Am Sun, 03 Mar 2024 12:23:45 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Sat, 2 Mar 2024 09:11:59 -0600 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:
>>
>>> On 3/2/2024 3:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>
>>>> "I didn't know that the fork wasn't strong enough
>>>> for this type of brake "
>>
>> (and the bike shop mechanic who installed the brake didn't know either).
>>
>>>
>>> Could you elaborate on that? The mounting point on the fork
>>> is the same for either caliper.
>>
>> Sure the two mounting points are the same. But the Magura HS33 isn't a
>> cantilever brake. It works well even withouth a brake booster under
>> normal conditions, but fails in a hard to debug way, given some
>> difficult conditions, when braking with a wet or icy rim on a surface
>> that has enough grip. Say, for example, braking downhill during winter
>> on a cleaned and heavily salted road. In that case, you need to apply a
>> lot more force to get sufficient deceleration. Problem: In this case,
>> both fork legs of the steel fork rotated far enough to limit the force
>> of the brake caliper. Hard to detect even if you know what to look out
>> for.
>>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/IMG-2461.jpeg>
>>
>> The bike shop had fitted what looked like a brake booster on superficial
>> inspection, but wasn't one. Unfortunately, I was quite busy during those
>> years and had no time for more than a cursory inspection. If I'd had the
>> time, I would have done the work myself and acquired the necessary
>> knowledge beforehand.
>>
>>
>Ah interesting while I have seen them in the flesh never used one. I
>believe they have found a niche for some urban bikes.

Well, urban bikes aren't niche, around here. But hydraulic rim brakes
like those from Magura were and still are somewhat expensive, compared
to ordinary rim brakes.

For example, a large bicyle shop ("Fahrrad XXL Feld") in my region that
expanded its business by integrating some fifteen separate family shops
into a chain of sixteen branches over all of Germany during the last
~fourty decades, still sells a biycle quite similar to a a bike my wife
got almost thirty years ago and still uses it for shopping and other
short local trips.

<https://www.fahrrad-xxl.de/vsf-fahrradmanufaktur-t-300-hs22-m000060584>

This bike uses a cheaper Magura HS22.

<https://magura.com/en/EUR/HS22/p/hs22>

For comparison

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20201008/P1260059.jpg>

A picture of my wifes bike, taken in 2020, when it got a new saddle.
When we bought it, Fahrradmanufaktur was still a small, independent and
very renowned manufacturer of bicycles located in Bremen. They have been
aquired later, I don't know who builds their bikes now, but it seems
that vsf keeps the brand and seems to keep the concept, too. Don't know
about quality.

<https://web.archive.org/web/20000311074708fw_/http://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/fr_treck.htm>

Her bike is similar to the T 200 with SRAM 3x7 shown on that page.

-> <https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/about-us/historie.php>

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Sun, 03 Mar 2024 12:23:45 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>> Am Sat, 2 Mar 2024 09:11:59 -0600 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:
>>>
>>>> On 3/2/2024 3:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "I didn't know that the fork wasn't strong enough
>>>>> for this type of brake "
>>>
>>> (and the bike shop mechanic who installed the brake didn't know either).
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could you elaborate on that? The mounting point on the fork
>>>> is the same for either caliper.
>>>
>>> Sure the two mounting points are the same. But the Magura HS33 isn't a
>>> cantilever brake. It works well even withouth a brake booster under
>>> normal conditions, but fails in a hard to debug way, given some
>>> difficult conditions, when braking with a wet or icy rim on a surface
>>> that has enough grip. Say, for example, braking downhill during winter
>>> on a cleaned and heavily salted road. In that case, you need to apply a
>>> lot more force to get sufficient deceleration. Problem: In this case,
>>> both fork legs of the steel fork rotated far enough to limit the force
>>> of the brake caliper. Hard to detect even if you know what to look out
>>> for.
>>>
>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/IMG-2461.jpeg>
>>>
>>> The bike shop had fitted what looked like a brake booster on superficial
>>> inspection, but wasn't one. Unfortunately, I was quite busy during those
>>> years and had no time for more than a cursory inspection. If I'd had the
>>> time, I would have done the work myself and acquired the necessary
>>> knowledge beforehand.
>>>
>>>
>> Ah interesting while I have seen them in the flesh never used one. I
>> believe they have found a niche for some urban bikes.
>
> Well, urban bikes aren't niche, around here. But hydraulic rim brakes
> like those from Magura were and still are somewhat expensive, compared
> to ordinary rim brakes.
>
To be fair Magura Brakes are expensive in general looking at disk brakes
and comparing like with like! Though that is a choice/marketing in that
they tend to be high performance 4 pot stuff.

Though the hydraulic rim brakes aren’t wildly expensive at a equivalent
level yes they are the same model from the 90’s so a 30 year design and all
that, but vs V brake Deore which is 60 something vs the HS33 90 something
so yes more expensive but still within ball park of mid end disk brakes
though Deore Disks are often closer to £50 than retail of £100.

> For example, a large bicyle shop ("Fahrrad XXL Feld") in my region that
> expanded its business by integrating some fifteen separate family shops
> into a chain of sixteen branches over all of Germany during the last
> ~fourty decades, still sells a biycle quite similar to a a bike my wife
> got almost thirty years ago and still uses it for shopping and other
> short local trips.
>
> <https://www.fahrrad-xxl.de/vsf-fahrradmanufaktur-t-300-hs22-m000060584>
>
> This bike uses a cheaper Magura HS22.
>
> <https://magura.com/en/EUR/HS22/p/hs22>
>
>
To be fair uk bikes are sold with utility and commuting in mind though it’s
less common for hub gears, though more so with the cargo E bikes makes more
sense, for a low distance commuter such as my wife the derailleur system
lasts years as the mileage is relatively low, ie sub 1000 per year.

But yes lot are marketing as sport etc bikes, though most can have
panniers/mudguards and so on added, my commute bike is old MTB modified to
be better at utility cycling ie Big Apple tires, mudguards panniers and bar
bag, lights etc.

> For comparison
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20201008/P1260059.jpg>
>
> A picture of my wifes bike, taken in 2020, when it got a new saddle.
> When we bought it, Fahrradmanufaktur was still a small, independent and
> very renowned manufacturer of bicycles located in Bremen. They have been
> aquired later, I don't know who builds their bikes now, but it seems
> that vsf keeps the brand and seems to keep the concept, too. Don't know
> about quality.
>
> <https://web.archive.org/web/20000311074708fw_/http://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/fr_treck.htm>
>
> Her bike is similar to the T 200 with SRAM 3x7 shown on that page.
>
>
> -> <https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/about-us/historie.php>
>
>

Roger Merriman

On 3/7/2024 11:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> But yes lot are marketing as sport etc bikes, though most can have
> panniers/mudguards and so on added, my commute bike is old MTB modified to
> be better at utility cycling ie Big Apple tires, mudguards panniers and bar
> bag, lights etc.

https://bicyclinglife.com/PracticalCycling/JoyofFenders.htm

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/7/2024 11:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> But yes lot are marketing as sport etc bikes, though most can have
>> panniers/mudguards and so on added, my commute bike is old MTB modified to
>> be better at utility cycling ie Big Apple tires, mudguards panniers and bar
>> bag, lights etc.
>
> https://bicyclinglife.com/PracticalCycling/JoyofFenders.htm
>

How long ago was that written? Ironically for my commute bike it’s arguably
less adaptable now.

has tires designed for one surface ie tarmac can clearly cope with unpaved
surfaces but anything soft and it drifts.

Has rigid rather than suspension fork so will not track as well if the
surface is rough.

Has 1 by 9 gearing ie fairly narrow gear range, which is fine for London
but certainly starts to make life hard work with hills.

Ie it used to have a much broader performance capability, ie could cope
with mountains and towns, and could cope with the odd commute, if not
directly set up for it, which I have now done.

In terms of mudguards only my Gravel bike doesn’t have them as doesn’t have
enough clearance, my full suspension has one if small and front only to
stop eye/face bound mud or at least the worse of it!

Roger Merriman