On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 1:43:09 PM UTC+1, Tim R wrote:
> I learned something but of course that generates another question.
>
> In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes. Who knew? Well, probably all of you, but not me.
>
> So what do you use to lubricate a belt?

You don't have to. That is the purpose of a belt.

Lou

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 7:43:09 AM UTC-5, Tim R wrote:
> I learned something but of course that generates another question.
>
> In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes. Who knew? Well, probably all of you, but not me.

Belt drives have been around for a while. Gates is probably the most widely used, but I could be wrong about that.
https://www.gatescarbondrive.com/bike

>
> So what do you use to lubricate a belt?

Gates states very explicitly _not_ to lubricate.
https://www.calameo.com/gates-corporation/read/006975492a1f903de3202?authid=QRjDBCvZQO0a

On 12/23/2023 4:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:47:49 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Islam is slightly more restrictive
>
> "Israel might use pig fat to ward off suicide attacks" (Feb 2004)
> <https://www.irishexaminer.com/world/arid-30134009.html>
> "The Maariv also quotes the rabbi saying if pig fat isn't used on
> buses, tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews will arm themselves
> with toy water pistols filled with liquid lard to be used against
> terrorists."
>
> I couldn't determine what happened but I can guess(tm). Lard is made
> by rendering pig fat, which is the process of removing water from the
> fat. If rendering is not performed, the pig fat soon hosts bacteria
> which produce a rather disgusting smell. Even in open air, rendered
> lard will eventually collect some water through condensation. The
> Arabs and Israeli's mentioned in the article have probably never
> smelled rotten pig fat.
>
>

When people get serious about confronting the threat,it can
be stopped.

"the Russians, started burying the dead Chechnya terrorists
with a piece of pigskin especially after Beslan massacre."

https://islam-watch.org/Others/Bury-Jihadi-Martyrs-in-Pig-skin-Paradise.htm

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/24/2023 6:43 AM, Tim R wrote:
> I learned something but of course that generates another question.
>
> In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes. Who knew? Well, probably all of you, but not me.
>
> So what do you use to lubricate a belt?

No lubrication necessary as they are toothed automotive
style belts (mostly from Gates who knows something about the
technology) running on aluminum sprockets.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20h.jpg

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20k.jpg

There were some very well made shaft drive machines in the
first couple decades of the 20th century. Steel shaft with
bronze bevel gears was a developed technology anyway but
gear lash adjustment is tedious after a tire change and they
were quite expensive compared to chain.

https://enginedbmaria55.z13.web.core.windows.net/shaft-drive-motorcycle-diagram.html

Modern applications used a sealed gearbox unit and a shaft
with sliding splines which is how motorcycles manage that.

Nice overview here:
https://www.bikesrepublic.com/english/archive/chains-belts-or-driveshafts-which-is-the-best-final-drive/

Belts and gears can be very quiet and less grimy for the
user but you just can't beat chain drive for efficiency
(before it's crud encrusted or worn, that is)

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 5:31:08 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 6:43 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > I learned something but of course that generates another question.
> >
> > In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes. Who knew? Well, probably all of you, but not me.
> >
> > So what do you use to lubricate a belt?
> No lubrication necessary as they are toothed automotive
> style belts (mostly from Gates who knows something about the
> technology) running on aluminum sprockets.
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20h.jpg
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20k.jpg
>
> There were some very well made shaft drive machines in the
> first couple decades of the 20th century. Steel shaft with
> bronze bevel gears was a developed technology anyway but
> gear lash adjustment is tedious after a tire change and they
> were quite expensive compared to chain.
>
> https://enginedbmaria55.z13.web.core.windows.net/shaft-drive-motorcycle-diagram.html
>
> Modern applications used a sealed gearbox unit and a shaft
> with sliding splines which is how motorcycles manage that.
>
> Nice overview here:
> https://www.bikesrepublic.com/english/archive/chains-belts-or-driveshafts-which-is-the-best-final-drive/
>
> Belts and gears can be very quiet and less grimy for the
> user but you just can't beat chain drive for efficiency
> (before it's crud encrusted or worn, that is)

Friend of mine bought this bike 2 weeks ago:

https://www.stevensbikes.de/nl/nl/allround/trekking-premium/c12-lite/

Tried it, hmmm. For only 400 euro more I would got this one:

https://www.rosebikes.nl/rose-black-lava-3-2702488?product_shape=obsidian+black

Lou

On 12/24/2023 11:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 6:43 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> I learned something but of course that generates another question.
>>
>> In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still exist, I found
>> there are also belt drive bikes.  Who knew?  Well, probably all of
>> you, but not me.
>>
>> So what do you use to lubricate a belt?
>
> No lubrication necessary as they are toothed automotive style belts
> (mostly from Gates who knows something about the technology) running on
> aluminum sprockets.
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20h.jpg
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20k.jpg
>
> There were some very well made shaft drive machines in the first couple
> decades of the 20th century. Steel shaft with bronze bevel gears was a
> developed technology anyway but gear lash adjustment is tedious after a
> tire change and they were quite expensive compared to chain.
>
> https://enginedbmaria55.z13.web.core.windows.net/shaft-drive-motorcycle-diagram.html

A comment on that link: It yielded a cartoony window asking me to click
to prove I wasn't a robot. Last time I encountered that image and
clicked, my browser was inundated with pop-ups, despite a blocker.
Ironically, they were trying to sell me some anti-virus product. I had
to delete masses of cookies to stop the assault.

I can't say for sure that was the trigger, but shut down the tab.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/24/2023 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 11:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 12/24/2023 6:43 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>> I learned something but of course that generates another
>>> question.
>>>
>>> In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still
>>> exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes.  Who
>>> knew?  Well, probably all of you, but not me.
>>>
>>> So what do you use to lubricate a belt?
>>
>> No lubrication necessary as they are toothed automotive
>> style belts (mostly from Gates who knows something about
>> the technology) running on aluminum sprockets.
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20h.jpg
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20k.jpg
>>
>> There were some very well made shaft drive machines in the
>> first couple decades of the 20th century. Steel shaft with
>> bronze bevel gears was a developed technology anyway but
>> gear lash adjustment is tedious after a tire change and
>> they were quite expensive compared to chain.
>>
>> https://enginedbmaria55.z13.web.core.windows.net/shaft-drive-motorcycle-diagram.html
>
> A comment on that link: It yielded a cartoony window asking
> me to click to prove I wasn't a robot. Last time I
> encountered that image and clicked, my browser was inundated
> with pop-ups, despite a blocker. Ironically, they were
> trying to sell me some anti-virus product. I had to delete
> masses of cookies to stop the assault.
>
> I can't say for sure that was the trigger, but shut down the
> tab.
>

I didn't get that prompt.

Here's the diagram I was seeking from that page:
https://i2.wp.com/patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US5263549-2.png

there was also a short review of chain vs belt vs geared shafts.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 8:44:48 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 5:31:08 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 12/24/2023 6:43 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > I learned something but of course that generates another question.
> > >
> > > In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes. Who knew? Well, probably all of you, but not me.
> > >
> > > So what do you use to lubricate a belt?
> > No lubrication necessary as they are toothed automotive
> > style belts (mostly from Gates who knows something about the
> > technology) running on aluminum sprockets.
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20h.jpg
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20k.jpg
> >
> > There were some very well made shaft drive machines in the
> > first couple decades of the 20th century. Steel shaft with
> > bronze bevel gears was a developed technology anyway but
> > gear lash adjustment is tedious after a tire change and they
> > were quite expensive compared to chain.
> >
> > https://enginedbmaria55.z13.web.core.windows.net/shaft-drive-motorcycle-diagram.html
> >
> > Modern applications used a sealed gearbox unit and a shaft
> > with sliding splines which is how motorcycles manage that.
> >
> > Nice overview here:
> > https://www.bikesrepublic.com/english/archive/chains-belts-or-driveshafts-which-is-the-best-final-drive/
> >
> > Belts and gears can be very quiet and less grimy for the
> > user but you just can't beat chain drive for efficiency
> > (before it's crud encrusted or worn, that is)
> Friend of mine bought this bike 2 weeks ago:
>
> https://www.stevensbikes.de/nl/nl/allround/trekking-premium/c12-lite/
>
> Tried it, hmmm. For only 400 euro more I would got this one:
>
> https://www.rosebikes.nl/rose-black-lava-3-2702488?product_shape=obsidian+black
>
> Lou
I suppose that is a nice clean maintenance free commuter.

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 10:46:04 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 12/24/2023 11:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 12/24/2023 6:43 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>> I learned something but of course that generates another
> >>> question.
> >>>
> >>> In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still
> >>> exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes. Who
> >>> knew? Well, probably all of you, but not me.
> >>>
> >>> So what do you use to lubricate a belt?
> >>
> >> No lubrication necessary as they are toothed automotive
> >> style belts (mostly from Gates who knows something about
> >> the technology) running on aluminum sprockets.
> >>
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20h.jpg
> >>
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/sanes20k.jpg
> >>
> >> There were some very well made shaft drive machines in the
> >> first couple decades of the 20th century. Steel shaft with
> >> bronze bevel gears was a developed technology anyway but
> >> gear lash adjustment is tedious after a tire change and
> >> they were quite expensive compared to chain.
> >>
> >> https://enginedbmaria55.z13.web.core.windows.net/shaft-drive-motorcycle-diagram.html
> >
> > A comment on that link: It yielded a cartoony window asking
> > me to click to prove I wasn't a robot. Last time I
> > encountered that image and clicked, my browser was inundated
> > with pop-ups, despite a blocker. Ironically, they were
> > trying to sell me some anti-virus product. I had to delete
> > masses of cookies to stop the assault.
> >
> > I can't say for sure that was the trigger, but shut down the
> > tab.
> >
> I didn't get that prompt.
>
> Here's the diagram I was seeking from that page:
> https://i2.wp.com/patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US5263549-2.png
>
> there was also a short review of chain vs belt vs geared shafts.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
The numbers don't lie - shaft chive loses 31% of the applied power. Bicyclists simply don't have that to waste.

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 13:10:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>> https://enginedbmaria55.z13.web.core.windows.net/shaft-drive-motorcycle-diagram.html
>
>A comment on that link: It yielded a cartoony window asking me to click
>to prove I wasn't a robot. Last time I encountered that image and
>clicked, my browser was inundated with pop-ups, despite a blocker.
>Ironically, they were trying to sell me some anti-virus product. I had
>to delete masses of cookies to stop the assault.
>
>I can't say for sure that was the trigger, but shut down the tab.

I didn't see a pop-up window. However, the page was in Dutch and
there were no English language site. The Google Translate to English
worked fairly well but I did better with the Polish site.

My initial guess(tm) is that you have accidentally installed some
malware, which has successfully tricked you with a possibly fake
pop-up window:
"The "Click Allow To Verify That You Are Not A Robot" Scam"
<https://malwaretips.com/blogs/remove-click-allow-to-verify-that-you-are-not-a-robot/>

I suggest you install the free version of Malwarebytes. Run it and
remove any malware that it finds.
<https://www.malwarebytes.com/mwb-download>
During the install, it will ask if you want "Browser Guard". The
correct answer is "no". Like most free programs, you will be
inundated with offers and recommendations for additional scans, paid
version and VPN services. Ignore them. The free version is fine.
After cleaning up the mess, you will be left with a blue "bat wing"
icon in the system tray (lower right of screen). Right click and
uncheck "start with Windoze". The idea is to not run Malwarebytes in
the background and to only run it when you need and want to use it.
Scanning took a little longer (6 minutes) because I forgot to top off
my coffee powered lubricant. Actually, it's the same speed with and
without the coffee. It just seems faster after a coffee speed boost.

Well, maybe not. After writing all the above, I tried the URL again.
This time, I received:
- Website Suspended
- Hosting Account Suspended
- Please contact your hosting provider to correct issues causing your
website to be offline.
The windows.net URL was redirected to <https://brnok.mythilshape.top>
which is likely a malware site. Whatever AI is now running
Microsoft's .NET site just discovered the problem and provided the
error message.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 04:43:07 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>I learned something but of course that generates another question.
>In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes. Who knew? Well, probably all of you, but not me.
>So what do you use to lubricate a belt?

Do you lubricate the fan/alternator/water-pump belt in your car?
Unless you're trying to destroy your fan belt, lubrication is not
needed or wanted.

However, belt drive bicycles usually have a gearbox transmission in
the rear hub:
<https://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub>
which does require lubrication. Fortunately, it's sealed, so you
don't need to worry about water, dirt, sand, or other contaminant. Oil
of Rohloff is the recommended lubricant:
<https://www.rohloff.de/en/products/maintenance>
<https://www.ison-distribution.com/pdf/hse/rohloff/SDS-003-V2-Chain_Lubricant_Oil_of_Rohloff-GB-en_2018-09-21.pdf>
"Description of the mixture: Ester Oil"
<https://ikvlubricants.com/products/oils-fluids/ester-oils/>
Excellent. Ester oils are synthetic and unlikely to contain lard:
<https://oukosher.org/btus/2016/03/21/certifying-oil-as-kosher-its-not-easy-2/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:15:31 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>The numbers don't lie - shaft chive loses 31% of the applied power. Bicyclists simply don't have that to waste.

True. The numbers don't lie, unless they come from Tom. Notice the
lack of a source for the 31% losses, which would 69% efficiency. That
would be interesting to see how it gets. Riding with a conservative
200 watt load, 31% losses equals 62 watts of heat generated by the
shaft drive. After a few minutes, you should be able to ignite a
small pile of firewood. 69% efficiency is what I would expect if your
were dragging an anchor. You might also remember that some people are
complaining about the "drag" caused by dynamo bicycle lighting, which
is typically about 3 watts.

More realistic numbers can be found at:
<https://www.cyclingabout.com/chainless-shaft-drive-bicycles/>
Addition numbers for belt drives at:
<https://www.cyclingabout.com/belt-drivetrain-efficiency-lab-testing/>
(partial quote)
Pros of Shaft Drive
- Low maintenance
- Could be more efficient than a chain/belt in super muddy conditions

Cons of Shaft Drive
- Low drive efficiency (~92% shaft vs ~99% chain)
- 1-2kg heavier than a chain or belt system

Your virtual demise on Feb 24, 2024 is rapidly approaching.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 04:43:07 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

> So what do you use to lubricate a belt?

I wish I could remember the story about the guy who mistook belt
dressing for chain lube.

Would have been even messier the other way around.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On 12/24/2023 3:26 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 13:10:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>> https://enginedbmaria55.z13.web.core.windows.net/shaft-drive-motorcycle-diagram.html
>>
>> A comment on that link: It yielded a cartoony window asking me to click
>> to prove I wasn't a robot. Last time I encountered that image and
>> clicked, my browser was inundated with pop-ups, despite a blocker.
>> Ironically, they were trying to sell me some anti-virus product. I had
>> to delete masses of cookies to stop the assault.
>>
>> I can't say for sure that was the trigger, but shut down the tab.
>
> I didn't see a pop-up window. However, the page was in Dutch and
> there were no English language site. The Google Translate to English
> worked fairly well but I did better with the Polish site.
>
> My initial guess(tm) is that you have accidentally installed some
> malware, which has successfully tricked you with a possibly fake
> pop-up window:
> "The "Click Allow To Verify That You Are Not A Robot" Scam"
> <https://malwaretips.com/blogs/remove-click-allow-to-verify-that-you-are-not-a-robot/>
>
> I suggest you install the free version of Malwarebytes. Run it and
> remove any malware that it finds.
> <https://www.malwarebytes.com/mwb-download>
> During the install, it will ask if you want "Browser Guard". The
> correct answer is "no". Like most free programs, you will be
> inundated with offers and recommendations for additional scans, paid
> version and VPN services. Ignore them. The free version is fine.
> After cleaning up the mess, you will be left with a blue "bat wing"
> icon in the system tray (lower right of screen). Right click and
> uncheck "start with Windoze". The idea is to not run Malwarebytes in
> the background and to only run it when you need and want to use it.
> Scanning took a little longer (6 minutes) because I forgot to top off
> my coffee powered lubricant. Actually, it's the same speed with and
> without the coffee. It just seems faster after a coffee speed boost.
>
> Well, maybe not. After writing all the above, I tried the URL again.
> This time, I received:
> - Website Suspended
> - Hosting Account Suspended
> - Please contact your hosting provider to correct issues causing your
> website to be offline.
> The windows.net URL was redirected to <https://brnok.mythilshape.top>
> which is likely a malware site. Whatever AI is now running
> Microsoft's .NET site just discovered the problem and provided the
> error message.

Thanks, that all sounds very helpful. I'll get to it in a couple days.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 3:44:43 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 04:43:07 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I learned something but of course that generates another question.
> >In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes. Who knew? Well, probably all of you, but not me.
> >So what do you use to lubricate a belt?
> Do you lubricate the fan/alternator/water-pump belt in your car?
> Unless you're trying to destroy your fan belt, lubrication is not
> needed or wanted.

I should have added a smiley. I intended humor. Oh, well................................

On Mon, 25 Dec 2023 05:17:09 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 3:44:43?PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 04:43:07 -0800 (PST), Tim R
>> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >I learned something but of course that generates another question.
>> >In looking up shaft drive bikes, which apparently still exist, I found there are also belt drive bikes. Who knew? Well, probably all of you, but not me.
>> >So what do you use to lubricate a belt?

>> Do you lubricate the fan/alternator/water-pump belt in your car?
>> Unless you're trying to destroy your fan belt, lubrication is not
>> needed or wanted.

>I should have added a smiley. I intended humor. Oh, well...............................

I answer serious questions with humorous answers and humorous
questions with serious answers. Both work quite nicely. When I'm not
certain, my default is to assume that the question was serious. The
rare question, which is very much on topic, is most certainly serious.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu Dec 7 12:04:50 2023 Roger Merriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:01:29?AM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 11:09:57?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 1:44:53?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 10:16:02?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 12:54:12?PM UTC-8, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:44:32?PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 12/6/2023 3:31 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:08:16?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 13:38:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 12/6/2023 11:53 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 5:18:11?PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain lubrication has a long history on r.b.tech as a "religious issue."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Billions of electrons have been spent over the decades in arguments
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> defending individual's choices, and disparaging the lubrication choices
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of others.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What's been new in the last ten years or so is well accepted data done
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> by precise measurements. One example is here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The latest I've seen pop up was in the current issue of _Bicycling_
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> magazine. There's a long article about a guy doing extremely detailed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lab testing of dozens of lubricants under a variety of conditions
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (clean, dirty, wet, etc.). He tracks chain wear (or "stretch") but says
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it correlates very well with efficiency, as measured in the Friction
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Facts lab tests.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I'm mentioning this because the results of both those tests
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> confirm what I've been saying for maybe 30 years: that dry wax based
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lubes work really, really well. :-) They take the top places in this
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> guy's rankings, by large margins, giving many times longer chain life.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article even breaks down the issue of costs (notify Joerg!) telling
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> how dry wax lubes can save serious amounts of money on chains, cogs and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> chainrings.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used hot paraffin wax with a bit of oil blended in for decades. I'm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> not so much worried about expense or minimizing friction loss. I just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> like that it's easy for me to apply, it lasts a nice long time and it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> keeps my bike far cleaner than any wet lube. But it's nice to see even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more confirmation of testing information that first popped up way back
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the late 1970s:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://flic.kr/p/dkUGq6
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://flic.kr/p/dkULS1
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Oh man, chain lubrication is discussed to death. Anyone with a little sense
> >>>>>>>>>>>> understands that sand/dirt in the chain is what makes chains
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wear. Knowing that it is not hard to understand that oil is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> dumbest chainlube if you want your chain to last.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> And yet many do not understand!
> >>>>>>>>>> and many simply disagree. Aint diversity wonderful?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> And I don?t mind. Just smile when they mention their chainlife of
> >>>>>>>>> 2500-3500 km and their trouble of cleaning their oily chain with nasty solvents.
> >>>>>>>> Right. We're in an age where "I disagree" is acceptable to some even if
> >>>>>>>> it goes against direct measurements, recorded facts, sworn testimony,
> >>>>>>>> proven science, etc. When possible, it's best to not bother with such
> >>>>>>>> people. Logic is wasted on them.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>> I use Menards lumber store 3-in-1 oil on my chain. The oil say says
> >>>>>>> it is for less than 3/4 HP motors and I don't put that out for any
> >>>>>>> length of time. Using this ultra cheap big box store lube I get about
> >>>>>>> 5-6000 miles on a chain. Wipe it down with OMS about every 400 miles
> >>>>>>> and re-lube. Occassionally if really cleaning the drive train I take
> >>>>>>> the chain off and dunk in jar of OMS and re-attach. No wax for me thank you
> >>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>> People that use light weight cheap oil and oil it down well and often
> >>>>>> find that their chains and rings have as good a life as Lou's wax or
> >>>>>> Frank's blind belief in science he doesn't understand because every
> >>>>>> case is different.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I use wax for one reason - the chain and cogs stay cleaner to the eye.
> >>>>> Well if your chain and cogs stay cleaner what does that mean? I cleaned
> >>>>> my crossbike after the very muddy ride of last Sunday with just water
> >>>>> (hosed it of at the carwash) and dried bike and chain and relubed my
> >>>>> chain. Whole proces took me 30 minutes in total spread over a couple of
> >>>>> intervals. Bike is still on the workstand I can post a picture of the relubed chain.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>> You and I prefer wax. Others ride in different conditions and may not
> >>>> want to invest in an ultrasonic cleaner and a hot pot to melt the wax
> >>>> in. Also there is the matter of workspace. People can easily put a bike
> >>>> through a commercial carwash, blow dry it and dump a load of cheap light
> >>>> oil on it then and before every ride and get the same result. We are
> >>>> rather special cases and showing what bike nerds we are is probably
> >>>> avoidable. And most people do not want getting their bike dirty.
> >>>
> >>> I only give my opinion what to use when asked. I don?t take my chain off
> >>> or put it in a ultra sonic cleaner or in a hot pot. I think too that that
> >>> us excessive. My chains stay on the bike, only cleaned with water and
> >>> soap and I use ready to use lube that I can buy, Squirt in my case.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >> I do use Squirt though on very wet MTB rides it?s not able to stick to, ie
> >> gets washed out.
> >>
> >> Works well on the commute and Gravel bike both of which don?t get subjected
> >> to bog snorkelling type of use.
> >>
> >> I do still use squirt on the MTB but if I know it?s going to be really wet
> >> I?ll use an oil for that ride.
> >>
> >
> > You can not use Squirt on an oily/greasy chain. You have to degrease a
> > new chain first. After that only use Squirt and no oil anymore. It is in
> > the instructions of Squirt.
> >
> > Lou
> >
>
> After a very wet MTB ride I clean chains, what oil remains I remove. For
> such a ride ie where your fording though water and so on, the chain has
> been washed clean hence Squirt not lasting the ride, and so removing what
> remains isn?t particularly long job.
>
> Nor cleaning the bike in general as such rides tend not to pick up much mud
> as well so much water.
>
> These are exceptions that prove the normal as my got to on all my bike is
> squirt, which just works for most part even in muddy conditions just not
> riding up rivers and so on!
>
> Roger Merriman

On Fri Dec 8 05:53:03 2023 John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 07:35:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 5:57:17?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 12/7/2023 12:37 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> > On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 19:37:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 10:09:55 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 18:37:17 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 08:45:54 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> In California minimum salary is $20.50/hour
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> California minimum wage, after Jan 1, 2024, will be $16 per hr.
> >> >>>> <https://www.dir.ca.gov/DIRNews/2023/2023-66.html>
> >> >>>> Some cities and counties in California have a local minimum wage that
> >> >>>> is higher than the state rate.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yes, but had I quoted the minimum in Eastovershoe,CA someone would
> >> >>> have said, no, no, no, the state rate is different :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Nope. They would have also mentioned that the California minimum wage
> >> >> is hourly and not a salary. Also, you didn't "quote" the minimum
> >> >> wage. You offered a number and then expected me to find the correct
> >> >> number.
> >> >>
> >> >> Someone might also have mentioned that the minimum wage in Calif might
> >> >> increase after the Nov 2024 election and become a "living wage":
> >> >> <https://ballotpedia.org/California__Minimum_Wage_Initiative_(2024)>
> >> >>
> >> >> No need to thank me.
> >> >
> >> > Well :-) Many working people consider their hourly earnings as their
> >> > salary :-) although granted they multiply by 8 and then by 5, 5-1/2, 6
> >> > or even 7 :-)
> >> >
> >> > As for "living wage" it doesn't work that a way. They raise your
> >> > salary, you get more money and your boss has to charge more for your
> >> > work to make a profit so because salaries have increased costs also go
> >> > up.
> >> >
> >> > And 'round and 'round it goes and where it stops nobody knows...
> >> >
> >> The great gnashing of teeth over 'living wage' for work
> >> 'unable to support a family of four' ignores that nearly all
> >> minimum wage earners are single marginal employees; teens,
> >> retired, mostly part time in unskilled or low skill
> >> positions. That's both due to limited capacity (experience,
> >> maturity, motivation, schedule conflicts etc) and desire.
> >> News flash- not everyone is 'career motivated', especially
> >> when basic living expenses (rent) are low to nil.
> >>
> >> I have worked below 'minimum' and was grateful for the work.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >I only made minimum wage once - when I was washing dishes in a restaurant. In the Air Force I made FAR below the minimum wage.
>
> Ah but the USAF was providing your food, housing, medical and dental
> care, and even the clothes that you wore.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.
>

Slocum, why do you talk about things you have never spent one second thinking about? I had no medical or dental care while in the zervice other than the vaccinations required. Housing and food costs fall FAR below the level that even minimum wages then would have provided. Ome of these days you will think first and post second. But you will probably die first.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu Dec 7 12:04:50 2023 Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:01:29?AM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 11:09:57?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 1:44:53?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 10:16:02?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 12:54:12?PM UTC-8, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:44:32?PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/6/2023 3:31 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:08:16?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 13:38:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/6/2023 11:53 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 5:18:11?PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain lubrication has a long history on r.b.tech as a "religious issue."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Billions of electrons have been spent over the decades in arguments
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defending individual's choices, and disparaging the lubrication choices
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of others.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's been new in the last ten years or so is well accepted data done
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by precise measurements. One example is here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The latest I've seen pop up was in the current issue of _Bicycling_
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magazine. There's a long article about a guy doing extremely detailed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lab testing of dozens of lubricants under a variety of conditions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (clean, dirty, wet, etc.). He tracks chain wear (or "stretch") but says
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it correlates very well with efficiency, as measured in the Friction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Facts lab tests.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I'm mentioning this because the results of both those tests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confirm what I've been saying for maybe 30 years: that dry wax based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lubes work really, really well. :-) They take the top places in this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guy's rankings, by large margins, giving many times longer chain life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article even breaks down the issue of costs (notify Joerg!) telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how dry wax lubes can save serious amounts of money on chains, cogs and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chainrings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used hot paraffin wax with a bit of oil blended in for decades. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not so much worried about expense or minimizing friction loss. I just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like that it's easy for me to apply, it lasts a nice long time and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeps my bike far cleaner than any wet lube. But it's nice to see even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more confirmation of testing information that first popped up way back
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the late 1970s:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://flic.kr/p/dkUGq6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://flic.kr/p/dkULS1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh man, chain lubrication is discussed to death. Anyone with a little sense
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understands that sand/dirt in the chain is what makes chains
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wear. Knowing that it is not hard to understand that oil is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dumbest chainlube if you want your chain to last.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yet many do not understand!
>>>>>>>>>>>> and many simply disagree. Aint diversity wonderful?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And I don?t mind. Just smile when they mention their chainlife of
>>>>>>>>>>> 2500-3500 km and their trouble of cleaning their oily chain with nasty solvents.
>>>>>>>>>> Right. We're in an age where "I disagree" is acceptable to some even if
>>>>>>>>>> it goes against direct measurements, recorded facts, sworn testimony,
>>>>>>>>>> proven science, etc. When possible, it's best to not bother with such
>>>>>>>>>> people. Logic is wasted on them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> I use Menards lumber store 3-in-1 oil on my chain. The oil say says
>>>>>>>>> it is for less than 3/4 HP motors and I don't put that out for any
>>>>>>>>> length of time. Using this ultra cheap big box store lube I get about
>>>>>>>>> 5-6000 miles on a chain. Wipe it down with OMS about every 400 miles
>>>>>>>>> and re-lube. Occassionally if really cleaning the drive train I take
>>>>>>>>> the chain off and dunk in jar of OMS and re-attach. No wax for me thank you
>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>> People that use light weight cheap oil and oil it down well and often
>>>>>>>> find that their chains and rings have as good a life as Lou's wax or
>>>>>>>> Frank's blind belief in science he doesn't understand because every
>>>>>>>> case is different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I use wax for one reason - the chain and cogs stay cleaner to the eye.
>>>>>>> Well if your chain and cogs stay cleaner what does that mean? I cleaned
>>>>>>> my crossbike after the very muddy ride of last Sunday with just water
>>>>>>> (hosed it of at the carwash) and dried bike and chain and relubed my
>>>>>>> chain. Whole proces took me 30 minutes in total spread over a couple of
>>>>>>> intervals. Bike is still on the workstand I can post a picture of the relubed chain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> You and I prefer wax. Others ride in different conditions and may not
>>>>>> want to invest in an ultrasonic cleaner and a hot pot to melt the wax
>>>>>> in. Also there is the matter of workspace. People can easily put a bike
>>>>>> through a commercial carwash, blow dry it and dump a load of cheap light
>>>>>> oil on it then and before every ride and get the same result. We are
>>>>>> rather special cases and showing what bike nerds we are is probably
>>>>>> avoidable. And most people do not want getting their bike dirty.
>>>>>
>>>>> I only give my opinion what to use when asked. I don?t take my chain off
>>>>> or put it in a ultra sonic cleaner or in a hot pot. I think too that that
>>>>> us excessive. My chains stay on the bike, only cleaned with water and
>>>>> soap and I use ready to use lube that I can buy, Squirt in my case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>> I do use Squirt though on very wet MTB rides it?s not able to stick to, ie
>>>> gets washed out.
>>>>
>>>> Works well on the commute and Gravel bike both of which don?t get subjected
>>>> to bog snorkelling type of use.
>>>>
>>>> I do still use squirt on the MTB but if I know it?s going to be really wet
>>>> I?ll use an oil for that ride.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You can not use Squirt on an oily/greasy chain. You have to degrease a
>>> new chain first. After that only use Squirt and no oil anymore. It is in
>>> the instructions of Squirt.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>
>> After a very wet MTB ride I clean chains, what oil remains I remove. For
>> such a ride ie where your fording though water and so on, the chain has
>> been washed clean hence Squirt not lasting the ride, and so removing what
>> remains isn?t particularly long job.
>>
>> Nor cleaning the bike in general as such rides tend not to pick up much mud
>> as well so much water.
>>
>> These are exceptions that prove the normal as my got to on all my bike is
>> squirt, which just works for most part even in muddy conditions just not
>> riding up rivers and so on!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
>
>
>
> One of the nice things about waxed chains is that when don't often enough
> you can wash your chain with soap and water after a ride and it won't
> need rewaxing for the next ride.
>
> Silca is turning out a lot of chain products these days and they are
> interesting - they have a chemical that turns the grease on a new chain
> into a waxy substance that doesn't have to be washed off before doing a regular wax.
>

On 4/18/2024 3:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Fri Dec 8 05:53:03 2023 John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 07:35:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 5:57:17?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 12/7/2023 12:37 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 19:37:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 10:09:55 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 18:37:17 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 08:45:54 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In California minimum salary is $20.50/hour
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> California minimum wage, after Jan 1, 2024, will be $16 per hr.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.dir.ca.gov/DIRNews/2023/2023-66.html>
>>>>>>>> Some cities and counties in California have a local minimum wage that
>>>>>>>> is higher than the state rate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but had I quoted the minimum in Eastovershoe,CA someone would
>>>>>>> have said, no, no, no, the state rate is different :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope. They would have also mentioned that the California minimum wage
>>>>>> is hourly and not a salary. Also, you didn't "quote" the minimum
>>>>>> wage. You offered a number and then expected me to find the correct
>>>>>> number.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone might also have mentioned that the minimum wage in Calif might
>>>>>> increase after the Nov 2024 election and become a "living wage":
>>>>>> <https://ballotpedia.org/California__Minimum_Wage_Initiative_(2024)>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No need to thank me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well :-) Many working people consider their hourly earnings as their
>>>>> salary :-) although granted they multiply by 8 and then by 5, 5-1/2, 6
>>>>> or even 7 :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> As for "living wage" it doesn't work that a way. They raise your
>>>>> salary, you get more money and your boss has to charge more for your
>>>>> work to make a profit so because salaries have increased costs also go
>>>>> up.
>>>>>
>>>>> And 'round and 'round it goes and where it stops nobody knows...
>>>>>
>>>> The great gnashing of teeth over 'living wage' for work
>>>> 'unable to support a family of four' ignores that nearly all
>>>> minimum wage earners are single marginal employees; teens,
>>>> retired, mostly part time in unskilled or low skill
>>>> positions. That's both due to limited capacity (experience,
>>>> maturity, motivation, schedule conflicts etc) and desire.
>>>> News flash- not everyone is 'career motivated', especially
>>>> when basic living expenses (rent) are low to nil.
>>>>
>>>> I have worked below 'minimum' and was grateful for the work.
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>> I only made minimum wage once - when I was washing dishes in a restaurant. In the Air Force I made FAR below the minimum wage.
>>
>> Ah but the USAF was providing your food, housing, medical and dental
>> care, and even the clothes that you wore.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>>
>
>
> Slocum, why do you talk about things you have never spent one second thinking about? I had no medical or dental care while in the zervice other than the vaccinations required.

("on a good day you have problems spelling" - "zervice")

Well john, whadaya know? Tommy never had access to any medical or dental
care in the airforce. I think I know whats going on here - he wasn't
actually in the US airforce, it was probably some other country's air
force (like north korea) and he was too stupid to realize it.

> Housing and food costs fall FAR below the level that even minimum wages then would have provided.

So, he had to pay for housing too? while on a US airforce base? lol...

> Ome of these days you will think first and post second.

("on a good day you have problems spelling" - "Ome")

Sure, like "I had no medical or dental care while in the zervice other
than the vaccinations required."?

> But you will probably die first.

You _will_ die first.

>
>

--
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