TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
>An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8

I have see this and I have no doubt it is true... Even in the Phoenix
area where there are, or should be, people in that industry.
I wonder if the ones that know this stuff are retiring ?

There are classes being offered in the Phoenix area for these kinds of
jobs. At least clean room and that kind of thing.

No wonder our jobs are overseas or in Mexico.

boB

On 8/13/2023 9:26 PM, boB wrote:
>
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>> The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
>> An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8
>
>
> I have see this and I have no doubt it is true... Even in the Phoenix
> area where there are, or should be, people in that industry.
> I wonder if the ones that know this stuff are retiring ?
>
> There are classes being offered in the Phoenix area for these kinds of
> jobs. At least clean room and that kind of thing.
>
> No wonder our jobs are overseas or in Mexico.

I suspect it is a combination of factors. The nonsense that you
can't find workers to ______ is just a fiction. You can find folks
to do damn near *anything*... *if* you are willing to pay for it!

The world was going to come to an end if the minimum wage was increased
to $15. Really? Prices increased -- and at your competitor, as well.
What did you lose?

The crops will go unharvested if we don't rely on (ahem) "guest" workers.
Yet, covid has shown that prices CAN increase and demand will still
exist (did someone suddenly start paying the *hens* more which led to
a tripling of egg prices?)

Businesses get accustomed to wanting to pay X for something -- yet not
wanting to similarly be constrained by *their* customers. What happened
to letting the market "work"?

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
>An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8

This doesn't happen out of the blue.

Any project of this size has a labor plan, so this a planned
shortage.

Any contracted work ditto.

They've made the same claim before, for operating personnel.

RL

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
>An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8

I can see how it would be hard to find an army of skilled techs to
build a semi plant in Arizona. It's reasonable to temporarily bring in
people who have done it already somewhere else.

If the unions work hard enough, they can get the entire project
cancelled and we can import all our chips. They can certainly dissuade
others from building semi fabs in the USA.

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:55:11 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 8/13/2023 9:26 PM, boB wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>>> The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
>>> An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>>>
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8
>>
>>
>> I have see this and I have no doubt it is true... Even in the Phoenix
>> area where there are, or should be, people in that industry.
>> I wonder if the ones that know this stuff are retiring ?
>>
>> There are classes being offered in the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>> jobs. At least clean room and that kind of thing.
>>
>> No wonder our jobs are overseas or in Mexico.
>
>I suspect it is a combination of factors. The nonsense that you
>can't find workers to ______ is just a fiction. You can find folks
>to do damn near *anything*... *if* you are willing to pay for it!

This is also true to a point. I would think the semi fabs in AZ are
prepared to pay but they still have trouble. IMO the problem is that
people have largely moved on to other fields now.

We have designed their video games and their smart phones and a lot of
younger people would rather stay focused on those things and do some
meaningless jobs to play in their off time rather than be schooled.

Anyway, we find peple eventually but it used to be easier to do
electronic manufacturing in the US. Most of that is overseas now
because people want CHEAP.

Made in America does not talk nearly as loudly as cheap.

boB

>
>The world was going to come to an end if the minimum wage was increased
>to $15. Really? Prices increased -- and at your competitor, as well.
>What did you lose?
>
>The crops will go unharvested if we don't rely on (ahem) "guest" workers.
>Yet, covid has shown that prices CAN increase and demand will still
>exist (did someone suddenly start paying the *hens* more which led to
>a tripling of egg prices?)
>
>Businesses get accustomed to wanting to pay X for something -- yet not
>wanting to similarly be constrained by *their* customers. What happened
>to letting the market "work"?

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 7:37:34 AM UTC-7, boB wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:55:11 -0700, Don Y
> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 8/13/2023 9:26 PM, boB wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
> >>> The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
> >>> An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8
> >>
> >>
> >> I have see this and I have no doubt it is true... Even in the Phoenix
> >> area where there are, or should be, people in that industry.
> >> I wonder if the ones that know this stuff are retiring ?
> >>
> >> There are classes being offered in the Phoenix area for these kinds of
> >> jobs. At least clean room and that kind of thing.
> >>
> >> No wonder our jobs are overseas or in Mexico.
> >
> >I suspect it is a combination of factors. The nonsense that you
> >can't find workers to ______ is just a fiction. You can find folks
> >to do damn near *anything*... *if* you are willing to pay for it!
> This is also true to a point. I would think the semi fabs in AZ are
> prepared to pay but they still have trouble. IMO the problem is that
> people have largely moved on to other fields now.

That's assuming they have done similar work in the past. What were they doing? 100nm? It might be different dealing with equipments making 5nm chips..

Eddy Lee <eddy711lee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 7:37:34 AM UTC-7, boB wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:55:11 -0700, Don Y
>> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/13/2023 9:26 PM, boB wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed
>>>>> due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>>>>> The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to
>>>>> get construction back on track.
>>>>> An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging
>>>>> lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have see this and I have no doubt it is true... Even in the Phoenix
>>>> area where there are, or should be, people in that industry.
>>>> I wonder if the ones that know this stuff are retiring ?
>>>>
>>>> There are classes being offered in the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>>>> jobs. At least clean room and that kind of thing.
>>>>
>>>> No wonder our jobs are overseas or in Mexico.
>>>
>>> I suspect it is a combination of factors. The nonsense that you
>>> can't find workers to ______ is just a fiction. You can find folks
>>> to do damn near *anything*... *if* you are willing to pay for it!
>> This is also true to a point. I would think the semi fabs in AZ are
>> prepared to pay but they still have trouble. IMO the problem is that
>> people have largely moved on to other fields now.
>
> That's assuming they have done similar work in the past. What were they
> doing? 100nm? It might be different dealing with equipments making 5nm chips.
>

The equipment is different, but it’s even more highly automated than 10
years ago, so retraining fab people wouldn’t be that big a deal.

Building a new one is another issue. All the tools have to be installed and
maintained, which needs much more skill than running them.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

On 8/14/2023 7:37 AM, boB wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:55:11 -0700, Don Y
> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 8/13/2023 9:26 PM, boB wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>>>> The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
>>>> An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8
>>>
>>>
>>> I have see this and I have no doubt it is true... Even in the Phoenix
>>> area where there are, or should be, people in that industry.
>>> I wonder if the ones that know this stuff are retiring ?
>>>
>>> There are classes being offered in the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>>> jobs. At least clean room and that kind of thing.
>>>
>>> No wonder our jobs are overseas or in Mexico.
>>
>> I suspect it is a combination of factors. The nonsense that you
>> can't find workers to ______ is just a fiction. You can find folks
>> to do damn near *anything*... *if* you are willing to pay for it!
>
> This is also true to a point. I would think the semi fabs in AZ are
> prepared to pay but they still have trouble. IMO the problem is that
> people have largely moved on to other fields now.

I rad the article as indicating the need for people to BUILD the
plant, not OPERATE it.

> We have designed their video games and their smart phones and a lot of
> younger people would rather stay focused on those things and do some
> meaningless jobs to play in their off time rather than be schooled.

"With an MBA, you can..."

> Anyway, we find peple eventually but it used to be easier to do
> electronic manufacturing in the US. Most of that is overseas now
> because people want CHEAP.

Exactly. Lots of skills have been outsourced and business often
drives the curriculum -- esp at small/local community colleges, etc.
They indicate the skills they want TODAY and don't invest in the
skills they will likely need tomorrow (they'll just expect to
replace the labor force at that time with more junior employees).

It is particularly distressing when you see folks buying "modules"
instead of designing *boards*. Even when they HAVE TO design a daughter
board because the module doesn't do everything they need.

[Why is that easier than rolling everything into a single design/board?]

> Made in America does not talk nearly as loudly as cheap.

Because people aren't willing to pay US labor rates.

I was offered a job designing (digital) TVs when I got out of school.
It was pretty apparent (to me) that it would be a short-lived career.
Manufacturing was already moving abroad, how long do you think it
would take for someone to realize engineering could move as well?

[Even if the engineering stayed here, how excited can you get about
designing your "third" TV? (first is a learning experience; second is
refinement; third is ditch digging!)]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 08:09:52 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 8/14/2023 7:37 AM, boB wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:55:11 -0700, Don Y
>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/13/2023 9:26 PM, boB wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>>>>> The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
>>>>> An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have see this and I have no doubt it is true... Even in the Phoenix
>>>> area where there are, or should be, people in that industry.
>>>> I wonder if the ones that know this stuff are retiring ?
>>>>
>>>> There are classes being offered in the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>>>> jobs. At least clean room and that kind of thing.
>>>>
>>>> No wonder our jobs are overseas or in Mexico.
>>>
>>> I suspect it is a combination of factors. The nonsense that you
>>> can't find workers to ______ is just a fiction. You can find folks
>>> to do damn near *anything*... *if* you are willing to pay for it!
>>
>> This is also true to a point. I would think the semi fabs in AZ are
>> prepared to pay but they still have trouble. IMO the problem is that
>> people have largely moved on to other fields now.
>
>I rad the article as indicating the need for people to BUILD the
>plant, not OPERATE it.
>
>> We have designed their video games and their smart phones and a lot of
>> younger people would rather stay focused on those things and do some
>> meaningless jobs to play in their off time rather than be schooled.
>
>"With an MBA, you can..."
>
>> Anyway, we find peple eventually but it used to be easier to do
>> electronic manufacturing in the US. Most of that is overseas now
>> because people want CHEAP.
>
>Exactly. Lots of skills have been outsourced and business often
>drives the curriculum -- esp at small/local community colleges, etc.
>They indicate the skills they want TODAY and don't invest in the
>skills they will likely need tomorrow (they'll just expect to
>replace the labor force at that time with more junior employees).
>
>It is particularly distressing when you see folks buying "modules"
>instead of designing *boards*. Even when they HAVE TO design a daughter
>board because the module doesn't do everything they need.
>
>[Why is that easier than rolling everything into a single design/board?]
>
>> Made in America does not talk nearly as loudly as cheap.
>
>Because people aren't willing to pay US labor rates.
>
>I was offered a job designing (digital) TVs when I got out of school.
>It was pretty apparent (to me) that it would be a short-lived career.
>Manufacturing was already moving abroad, how long do you think it
>would take for someone to realize engineering could move as well?
>
>[Even if the engineering stayed here, how excited can you get about
>designing your "third" TV? (first is a learning experience; second is
>refinement; third is ditch digging!)]
>

Don, you must be older like me ? I'm 69.

I used to fix TVs way back when. None of that going on here either
nowadays. Well, maybe very slightly.

I listed the Phoenix jobs available for TSMC below this. It is
interesting see what kinds of skills they are looking for. Looks like
most of them might be more or less permenant jobs ?
A few are low pay but geeeeez ! Look at the higher paying ones !

TSMC is going to bring some Taiwanese people over here I understand.

The feature size of in the <7 nm range but not TSMC's smallest. They
want to keep that technology in Taiwan evidently.

Operators and maintenance fo those $billion dollar equipment (ASML)
from Holland is probably what they need the highly educate/trained for
in addition to the other cool stuff they do. Remember that nearby
Intel can't quite match the small feature sizes that TSMC is doing. Or
they couldn't as of the last couple years anyway.

Do you know why they choose the Phoenix area for these kinds of
operations ? I heard it was because the ground doesn't move very
much there. They do require LOTS of water though which we know is not
as abundant as we would like... I guess that they can recycle much
better now though.

boB (wintering and working in the Phoenix area)

HERE IS THE LIST...

TSMC
Material Engineer
Phoenix, AZ
$70K - $100K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Emergency Response Coordinator
Phoenix, AZ
$55K - $86K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
IT Technician 1
Phoenix, AZ
$39K - $57K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Equipment Technician
Phoenix, AZ
$45K - $68K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Research Intern-Low-Dimensional Devices(4788)
San Jose, CA
$36.00 - $44.00 Per Hour (Employer est.)
30d+

TSMC
ISEP Emergency Response Coordinator
Phoenix, AZ
$56K - $88K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Department Assistant
Phoenix, AZ
$38K - $56K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
CST Manager (Tool Install Project Manager)
Phoenix, AZ
$83K - $128K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Director Public Relations
Phoenix, AZ
$123K - $191K (Glassdoor est.)

TSMC
ISEP Safety Specialist, Lead
Phoenix, AZ
$52K - $84K (Glassdoor est.)

TSMC
Mask Process Engineer (2023 HC)
Phoenix, AZ
$73K - $106K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Entry Equipment Maintenance Technician
Phoenix, AZ
$24.00 - $33.00 Per Hour (Employer est.)
Easy Apply
30d+

TSMC
QR Administrative Secretary
Phoenix, AZ
$42K - $56K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Operation Resources Planning Engineer (Industrial Engineer)
Phoenix, AZ
$88K - $125K (Glassdoor est.)
26d

TSMC
Module Equipment Engineer
Phoenix, AZ
$76K - $104K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
APR/Physical Design Engineer 1
Oregon
30d+

TSMC
Global Logistics Manager
Phoenix, AZ
$83K - $124K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
YED - Yield Excellence Engineer (2023 HC)
Phoenix, AZ
$118K - $170K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
ISEP Safety Engineer (EHS)
Phoenix, AZ
$69K - $106K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Outgoing Quality Assurance Technician
Phoenix, AZ
$48K - $70K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Chemical Lab Technician
Phoenix, AZ
$43K - $63K (Glassdoor est.)

TSMC
HR Operations Specialist (Onsite)
Phoenix, AZ
$68K - $99K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Manufacturing Manager
Phoenix, AZ
$90K - $134K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
GRC (Governance, Risk management, and Control/Compliance) Manager
Phoenix, AZ
$106K - $161K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Strategic Procurement Planner and Buyer
Phoenix, AZ
$69K - $98K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Senior Compensation Analyst
Phoenix, AZ
$101K - $141K (Glassdoor est.)

TSMC
IT Infrastructure Engineer - Network
Phoenix, AZ
$90K - $134K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
ISEP - Fire Protection Safety Engineer
Phoenix, AZ
$86K - $126K (Glassdoor est.)
27d

TSMC
Field Technical Solutions Project/ Program Manager (Design or
Automotive Expert)(4917)
San Jose, CA
$116K - $218K (Employer est.)

TSMC
Mid-Level Equipment Maintenance Technician
Phoenix, AZ
$30.00 - $40.00 Per Hour (Employer est.)
Easy Apply

TSMC
Manufacturing Quality and Reliability Engineer
Phoenix, AZ
$83K - $112K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Epitaxy (Epi) Engineering Manger
Phoenix, AZ
$78K - $128K (Glassdoor est.)

TSMC
Supply Chain - Procurement Manager
Phoenix, AZ
30d+

TSMC
Module Process Engineer
Phoenix, AZ
$76K - $97K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
PIE "Process Integration Engineering" Technical Manager
Phoenix, AZ
$94K - $136K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
YED (Yield Enhancement), Sr Technical Manager
Phoenix, AZ
$88K - $131K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

TSMC
Diffusion Module Engineering Manger
Phoenix, AZ
$120K - $175K (Glassdoor est.)

TSMC
Senior Manager of Leadership/Management Development
Phoenix, AZ
$104K - $172K (Glassdoor est.)
30d+

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 19:16:05 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 08:09:52 -0700, Don Y
><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 8/14/2023 7:37 AM, boB wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:55:11 -0700, Don Y
>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/13/2023 9:26 PM, boB wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>>>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>>>>>> The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
>>>>>> An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have see this and I have no doubt it is true... Even in the Phoenix
>>>>> area where there are, or should be, people in that industry.
>>>>> I wonder if the ones that know this stuff are retiring ?
>>>>>
>>>>> There are classes being offered in the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>>>>> jobs. At least clean room and that kind of thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> No wonder our jobs are overseas or in Mexico.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect it is a combination of factors. The nonsense that you
>>>> can't find workers to ______ is just a fiction. You can find folks
>>>> to do damn near *anything*... *if* you are willing to pay for it!
>>>
>>> This is also true to a point. I would think the semi fabs in AZ are
>>> prepared to pay but they still have trouble. IMO the problem is that
>>> people have largely moved on to other fields now.
>>
>>I rad the article as indicating the need for people to BUILD the
>>plant, not OPERATE it.
>>
>>> We have designed their video games and their smart phones and a lot of
>>> younger people would rather stay focused on those things and do some
>>> meaningless jobs to play in their off time rather than be schooled.
>>
>>"With an MBA, you can..."
>>
>>> Anyway, we find peple eventually but it used to be easier to do
>>> electronic manufacturing in the US. Most of that is overseas now
>>> because people want CHEAP.
>>
>>Exactly. Lots of skills have been outsourced and business often
>>drives the curriculum -- esp at small/local community colleges, etc.
>>They indicate the skills they want TODAY and don't invest in the
>>skills they will likely need tomorrow (they'll just expect to
>>replace the labor force at that time with more junior employees).
>>
>>It is particularly distressing when you see folks buying "modules"
>>instead of designing *boards*. Even when they HAVE TO design a daughter
>>board because the module doesn't do everything they need.
>>
>>[Why is that easier than rolling everything into a single design/board?]
>>
>>> Made in America does not talk nearly as loudly as cheap.
>>
>>Because people aren't willing to pay US labor rates.
>>
>>I was offered a job designing (digital) TVs when I got out of school.
>>It was pretty apparent (to me) that it would be a short-lived career.
>>Manufacturing was already moving abroad, how long do you think it
>>would take for someone to realize engineering could move as well?
>>
>>[Even if the engineering stayed here, how excited can you get about
>>designing your "third" TV? (first is a learning experience; second is
>>refinement; third is ditch digging!)]
>>
>
>Don, you must be older like me ? I'm 69.
>
>I used to fix TVs way back when. None of that going on here either
>nowadays. Well, maybe very slightly.
>
>I listed the Phoenix jobs available for TSMC below this. It is
>interesting see what kinds of skills they are looking for. Looks like
>most of them might be more or less permenant jobs ?
>A few are low pay but geeeeez ! Look at the higher paying ones !
>
>TSMC is going to bring some Taiwanese people over here I understand.
>
>The feature size of in the <7 nm range but not TSMC's smallest. They
>want to keep that technology in Taiwan evidently.
>
>Operators and maintenance fo those $billion dollar equipment (ASML)
>from Holland is probably what they need the highly educate/trained for
>in addition to the other cool stuff they do. Remember that nearby
>Intel can't quite match the small feature sizes that TSMC is doing. Or
>they couldn't as of the last couple years anyway.
>
>Do you know why they choose the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>operations ? I heard it was because the ground doesn't move very
>much there. They do require LOTS of water though which we know is not
>as abundant as we would like... I guess that they can recycle much
>better now though.
>
>
>
>boB (wintering and working in the Phoenix area)
>
>HERE IS THE LIST...
>
>TSMC
>Material Engineer
>Phoenix, AZ
>$70K - $100K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Emergency Response Coordinator
>Phoenix, AZ
>$55K - $86K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>IT Technician 1
>Phoenix, AZ
>$39K - $57K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Equipment Technician
>Phoenix, AZ
>$45K - $68K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Research Intern-Low-Dimensional Devices(4788)
>San Jose, CA
>$36.00 - $44.00 Per Hour (Employer est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>ISEP Emergency Response Coordinator
>Phoenix, AZ
>$56K - $88K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Department Assistant
>Phoenix, AZ
>$38K - $56K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>CST Manager (Tool Install Project Manager)
>Phoenix, AZ
>$83K - $128K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Director Public Relations
>Phoenix, AZ
>$123K - $191K (Glassdoor est.)
>
>
>
>TSMC
>ISEP Safety Specialist, Lead
>Phoenix, AZ
>$52K - $84K (Glassdoor est.)
>
>
>TSMC
>Mask Process Engineer (2023 HC)
>Phoenix, AZ
>$73K - $106K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Entry Equipment Maintenance Technician
>Phoenix, AZ
>$24.00 - $33.00 Per Hour (Employer est.)
>Easy Apply
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>QR Administrative Secretary
>Phoenix, AZ
>$42K - $56K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Operation Resources Planning Engineer (Industrial Engineer)
>Phoenix, AZ
>$88K - $125K (Glassdoor est.)
>26d
>
>
>TSMC
>Module Equipment Engineer
>Phoenix, AZ
>$76K - $104K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>APR/Physical Design Engineer 1
>Oregon
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Global Logistics Manager
>Phoenix, AZ
>$83K - $124K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>YED - Yield Excellence Engineer (2023 HC)
>Phoenix, AZ
>$118K - $170K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>ISEP Safety Engineer (EHS)
>Phoenix, AZ
>$69K - $106K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Outgoing Quality Assurance Technician
>Phoenix, AZ
>$48K - $70K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Chemical Lab Technician
>Phoenix, AZ
>$43K - $63K (Glassdoor est.)
>
>
>
>TSMC
>HR Operations Specialist (Onsite)
>Phoenix, AZ
>$68K - $99K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Manufacturing Manager
>Phoenix, AZ
>$90K - $134K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>GRC (Governance, Risk management, and Control/Compliance) Manager
>Phoenix, AZ
>$106K - $161K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Strategic Procurement Planner and Buyer
>Phoenix, AZ
>$69K - $98K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Senior Compensation Analyst
>Phoenix, AZ
>$101K - $141K (Glassdoor est.)
>
>
>
>TSMC
>IT Infrastructure Engineer - Network
>Phoenix, AZ
>$90K - $134K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>ISEP - Fire Protection Safety Engineer
>Phoenix, AZ
>$86K - $126K (Glassdoor est.)
>27d
>
>
>TSMC
>Field Technical Solutions Project/ Program Manager (Design or
>Automotive Expert)(4917)
>San Jose, CA
>$116K - $218K (Employer est.)
>
>
>TSMC
>Mid-Level Equipment Maintenance Technician
>Phoenix, AZ
>$30.00 - $40.00 Per Hour (Employer est.)
>Easy Apply
>
>
>TSMC
>Manufacturing Quality and Reliability Engineer
>Phoenix, AZ
>$83K - $112K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Epitaxy (Epi) Engineering Manger
>Phoenix, AZ
>$78K - $128K (Glassdoor est.)
>
>
>TSMC
>Supply Chain - Procurement Manager
>Phoenix, AZ
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Module Process Engineer
>Phoenix, AZ
>$76K - $97K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>PIE "Process Integration Engineering" Technical Manager
>Phoenix, AZ
>$94K - $136K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>YED (Yield Enhancement), Sr Technical Manager
>Phoenix, AZ
>$88K - $131K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Diffusion Module Engineering Manger
>Phoenix, AZ
>$120K - $175K (Glassdoor est.)
>
>
>
>TSMC
>Senior Manager of Leadership/Management Development
>Phoenix, AZ
>$104K - $172K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>Senior Financial Analyst - Taxation
>Phoenix, AZ
>$85K - $114K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>PVD Sr. Engineering Manager
>Phoenix, AZ
>$132K - $190K (Glassdoor est.)
>
>
>
>TSMC
>CMP, Sr. Engineering Manager
>Phoenix, AZ
>$125K - $181K (Glassdoor est.)
>30d+
>
>
>TSMC
>CVD, Senior Engineering Manager
>Phoenix, AZ
>$123K - $173K (Glassdoor est.)

On 8/14/2023 7:16 PM, boB wrote:
>> I was offered a job designing (digital) TVs when I got out of school.
>> It was pretty apparent (to me) that it would be a short-lived career.
>> Manufacturing was already moving abroad, how long do you think it
>> would take for someone to realize engineering could move as well?
>>
>> [Even if the engineering stayed here, how excited can you get about
>> designing your "third" TV? (first is a learning experience; second is
>> refinement; third is ditch digging!)]
>
> Don, you must be older like me ? I'm 69.

"Like" is a relative term. :> But, yes, my career started almost 50
years ago. <frown>

> I used to fix TVs way back when. None of that going on here either
> nowadays. Well, maybe very slightly.

Most consumer kit is disposable. The days of "pulling all the tubes and
heading up to the drug store to use their tube tester" are long past.

I used to "rescue" discarded (LCD/LED) TVs to divert them from the
land fill. But, after three or four, you run out of places to put them!
And, most folks already *have* two or three so its hard to find
places to gift them (esp as most folks want the TV to be "current"
and aren't capable of driving it with external electronics that can
be KEPT current).

Even the 1980-ish TV design job mentioned above was "lets replace the
ANALOG signal path with digital electronics" to reduce cost and add features
(e.g., imagine an analog implementation of PiP or "freeze frame", etc.)
It wasn't intended to make things more reliable or easier to repair...

> I listed the Phoenix jobs available for TSMC below this. It is
> interesting see what kinds of skills they are looking for. Looks like
> most of them might be more or less permenant jobs ?
> A few are low pay but geeeeez ! Look at the higher paying ones !

Actually, they aren't really excessive. You can go build bombs for
~$100K fresh out of school...

They can't find folks for the non-technical (mask/production-related) jobs?
They can't find an "IT Technician 1"? "Department Assistant"? "Director
Public Relations"? "QR Administrative Secretary"?

Is "must speak fluent Chinese" an unwritten requirement of these jobs
(that would necessitate bringing folks in from Taiwan)? Or, "must have
held an identical position at another similar foundry"?

> TSMC is going to bring some Taiwanese people over here I understand.

It will be interesting to see if they are similarly scorned as the
"illegals" who harvest crops, maintain lawns, clean pools, prepare
food, etc.

> The feature size of in the <7 nm range but not TSMC's smallest. They
> want to keep that technology in Taiwan evidently.

Could be. Or, they could be wanting to see how effectively the
larger geometries come on line before making a decision as to the
finer ones.

I'm sure they have thought about the future of their business if
China gets even more aggressive -- do you abandon the fab?

> Operators and maintenance fo those $billion dollar equipment (ASML)
> from Holland is probably what they need the highly educate/trained for
> in addition to the other cool stuff they do. Remember that nearby
> Intel can't quite match the small feature sizes that TSMC is doing. Or
> they couldn't as of the last couple years anyway.

I think Intel is screwed by the x86 legacy. Too much of their
"success" is tied up in that market. Historically, they were
more diverse. They need to spinoff a subsidiary to take on
more current designs, avoiding the PC legacy.

> Do you know why they choose the Phoenix area for these kinds of
> operations ? I heard it was because the ground doesn't move very
> much there. They do require LOTS of water though which we know is not
> as abundant as we would like... I guess that they can recycle much
> better now though.

I suspect they chose feenigs because of the size of the workforce with
RELATED skillsets, etc. High tech isn't very well distributed in the
state. It would be like setting up shop near Boston to tap into all
of those universities' graduates (and existing tech companies).

> boB (wintering and working in the Phoenix area)

Ah, I'm a *permanent* resident to your south -- enjoying the clear skies,
warm weather, spectacular rainstorms, etc. (delightful meteor shower
two? nights ago -- pity the folks who live under cloud cover!)

> HERE IS THE LIST...

> > The feature size of in the <7 nm range but not TSMC's smallest. They
> > want to keep that technology in Taiwan evidently.

I believe they are bringing in the second-hand/second-life machines from Taiwan,
to free-up space for newer machines there.

> > Do you know why they choose the Phoenix area for these kinds of
> > operations ? I heard it was because the ground doesn't move very
> > much there. They do require LOTS of water though which we know is not
> > as abundant as we would like... I guess that they can recycle much
> > better now though.

And energy. They could use as much energy as Phoenix itself.

On 8/15/2023 7:10 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
>
>>> The feature size of in the <7 nm range but not TSMC's smallest. They
>>> want to keep that technology in Taiwan evidently.
>
> I believe they are bringing in the second-hand/second-life machines from Taiwan,
> to free-up space for newer machines there.

Possible. OTOH, with all of the sabre-rattling China has been
doing wrt Taiwan, it seems a smarter move might be to move
the more valuable fab to "someplace safer" -- along with the
folks with the know-how to use it!

>>> Do you know why they choose the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>>> operations ? I heard it was because the ground doesn't move very
>>> much there. They do require LOTS of water though which we know is not
>>> as abundant as we would like... I guess that they can recycle much
>>> better now though.
>
> And energy. They could use as much energy as Phoenix itself.

There's a nuke nearby.

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 21:09:09 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 19:16:05 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 08:09:52 -0700, Don Y
>><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On 8/14/2023 7:37 AM, boB wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:55:11 -0700, Don Y
>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/13/2023 9:26 PM, boB wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>>>>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TSMC says the opening of its Arizona chip factory has been delayed due to a shortage of skilled workers.
>>>>>>> The company says it needs to bring Taiwanese workers to Arizona to get construction back on track.
>>>>>>> An Arizona union says US jobs are being threatened — and is urging lawmakers to deny the workers' visas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-feud-is-heating-up-between-arizona-workers-and-the-world-s-leading-chipmaker-after-the-company-claimed-the-us-doesn-t-have-the-skills-to-build-its-new-factory/ar-AA1fcXl8
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have see this and I have no doubt it is true... Even in the Phoenix
>>>>>> area where there are, or should be, people in that industry.
>>>>>> I wonder if the ones that know this stuff are retiring ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are classes being offered in the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>>>>>> jobs. At least clean room and that kind of thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No wonder our jobs are overseas or in Mexico.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect it is a combination of factors. The nonsense that you
>>>>> can't find workers to ______ is just a fiction. You can find folks
>>>>> to do damn near *anything*... *if* you are willing to pay for it!
>>>>
>>>> This is also true to a point. I would think the semi fabs in AZ are
>>>> prepared to pay but they still have trouble. IMO the problem is that
>>>> people have largely moved on to other fields now.
>>>
>>>I rad the article as indicating the need for people to BUILD the
>>>plant, not OPERATE it.
>>>
>>>> We have designed their video games and their smart phones and a lot of
>>>> younger people would rather stay focused on those things and do some
>>>> meaningless jobs to play in their off time rather than be schooled.
>>>
>>>"With an MBA, you can..."
>>>
>>>> Anyway, we find peple eventually but it used to be easier to do
>>>> electronic manufacturing in the US. Most of that is overseas now
>>>> because people want CHEAP.
>>>
>>>Exactly. Lots of skills have been outsourced and business often
>>>drives the curriculum -- esp at small/local community colleges, etc.
>>>They indicate the skills they want TODAY and don't invest in the
>>>skills they will likely need tomorrow (they'll just expect to
>>>replace the labor force at that time with more junior employees).
>>>
>>>It is particularly distressing when you see folks buying "modules"
>>>instead of designing *boards*. Even when they HAVE TO design a daughter
>>>board because the module doesn't do everything they need.
>>>
>>>[Why is that easier than rolling everything into a single design/board?]
>>>
>>>> Made in America does not talk nearly as loudly as cheap.
>>>
>>>Because people aren't willing to pay US labor rates.
>>>
>>>I was offered a job designing (digital) TVs when I got out of school.
>>>It was pretty apparent (to me) that it would be a short-lived career.
>>>Manufacturing was already moving abroad, how long do you think it
>>>would take for someone to realize engineering could move as well?
>>>
>>>[Even if the engineering stayed here, how excited can you get about
>>>designing your "third" TV? (first is a learning experience; second is
>>>refinement; third is ditch digging!)]
>>>
>>
>>Don, you must be older like me ? I'm 69.
>>
>>I used to fix TVs way back when. None of that going on here either
>>nowadays. Well, maybe very slightly.
>>
>>I listed the Phoenix jobs available for TSMC below this. It is
>>interesting see what kinds of skills they are looking for. Looks like
>>most of them might be more or less permenant jobs ?
>>A few are low pay but geeeeez ! Look at the higher paying ones !
>>
>>TSMC is going to bring some Taiwanese people over here I understand.
>>
>>The feature size of in the <7 nm range but not TSMC's smallest. They
>>want to keep that technology in Taiwan evidently.
>>
>>Operators and maintenance fo those $billion dollar equipment (ASML)
>>from Holland is probably what they need the highly educate/trained for
>>in addition to the other cool stuff they do. Remember that nearby
>>Intel can't quite match the small feature sizes that TSMC is doing. Or
>>they couldn't as of the last couple years anyway.
>>
>>Do you know why they choose the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>>operations ? I heard it was because the ground doesn't move very
>>much there. They do require LOTS of water though which we know is not
>>as abundant as we would like... I guess that they can recycle much
>>better now though.
>>
>>
>>
>>boB (wintering and working in the Phoenix area)
>>
>>HERE IS THE LIST...
>>
>>TSMC
>>Material Engineer
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$70K - $100K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Emergency Response Coordinator
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$55K - $86K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>IT Technician 1
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$39K - $57K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Equipment Technician
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$45K - $68K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Research Intern-Low-Dimensional Devices(4788)
>>San Jose, CA
>>$36.00 - $44.00 Per Hour (Employer est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>ISEP Emergency Response Coordinator
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$56K - $88K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Department Assistant
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$38K - $56K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>CST Manager (Tool Install Project Manager)
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$83K - $128K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Director Public Relations
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$123K - $191K (Glassdoor est.)
>>
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>ISEP Safety Specialist, Lead
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$52K - $84K (Glassdoor est.)
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Mask Process Engineer (2023 HC)
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$73K - $106K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Entry Equipment Maintenance Technician
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$24.00 - $33.00 Per Hour (Employer est.)
>>Easy Apply
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>QR Administrative Secretary
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$42K - $56K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Operation Resources Planning Engineer (Industrial Engineer)
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$88K - $125K (Glassdoor est.)
>>26d
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Module Equipment Engineer
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$76K - $104K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>APR/Physical Design Engineer 1
>>Oregon
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Global Logistics Manager
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$83K - $124K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>YED - Yield Excellence Engineer (2023 HC)
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$118K - $170K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>ISEP Safety Engineer (EHS)
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$69K - $106K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Outgoing Quality Assurance Technician
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$48K - $70K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Chemical Lab Technician
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$43K - $63K (Glassdoor est.)
>>
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>HR Operations Specialist (Onsite)
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$68K - $99K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Manufacturing Manager
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$90K - $134K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>GRC (Governance, Risk management, and Control/Compliance) Manager
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$106K - $161K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Strategic Procurement Planner and Buyer
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$69K - $98K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Senior Compensation Analyst
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$101K - $141K (Glassdoor est.)
>>
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>IT Infrastructure Engineer - Network
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$90K - $134K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>ISEP - Fire Protection Safety Engineer
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$86K - $126K (Glassdoor est.)
>>27d
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Field Technical Solutions Project/ Program Manager (Design or
>>Automotive Expert)(4917)
>>San Jose, CA
>>$116K - $218K (Employer est.)
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Mid-Level Equipment Maintenance Technician
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$30.00 - $40.00 Per Hour (Employer est.)
>>Easy Apply
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Manufacturing Quality and Reliability Engineer
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$83K - $112K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Epitaxy (Epi) Engineering Manger
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$78K - $128K (Glassdoor est.)
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Supply Chain - Procurement Manager
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Module Process Engineer
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$76K - $97K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>PIE "Process Integration Engineering" Technical Manager
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$94K - $136K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>YED (Yield Enhancement), Sr Technical Manager
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$88K - $131K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Diffusion Module Engineering Manger
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$120K - $175K (Glassdoor est.)
>>
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Senior Manager of Leadership/Management Development
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$104K - $172K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>Senior Financial Analyst - Taxation
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$85K - $114K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>PVD Sr. Engineering Manager
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$132K - $190K (Glassdoor est.)
>>
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>CMP, Sr. Engineering Manager
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$125K - $181K (Glassdoor est.)
>>30d+
>>
>>
>>TSMC
>>CVD, Senior Engineering Manager
>>Phoenix, AZ
>>$123K - $173K (Glassdoor est.)
>
>Those salaries are low by Silicon Valley standards, which is probably
>one reason to set up in Arizona.
>
>You can actually buy a house in Phoenix for under a million dollars!

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 23:03:54 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 8/14/2023 7:16 PM, boB wrote:
>>> I was offered a job designing (digital) TVs when I got out of school.
>>> It was pretty apparent (to me) that it would be a short-lived career.
>>> Manufacturing was already moving abroad, how long do you think it
>>> would take for someone to realize engineering could move as well?
>>>
>>> [Even if the engineering stayed here, how excited can you get about
>>> designing your "third" TV? (first is a learning experience; second is
>>> refinement; third is ditch digging!)]
>>
>> Don, you must be older like me ? I'm 69.
>
>"Like" is a relative term. :> But, yes, my career started almost 50
>years ago. <frown>
>

I started just over 50 years ago after high school, not counting the 7
years 5 or 6 years earlier building ham radio stuff at around age 12.
Certainly not counting the earlier years sticking things into AC
outlets, etc. :)

>> I used to fix TVs way back when. None of that going on here either
>> nowadays. Well, maybe very slightly.
>
>Most consumer kit is disposable. The days of "pulling all the tubes and
>heading up to the drug store to use their tube tester" are long past.
>
>I used to "rescue" discarded (LCD/LED) TVs to divert them from the
>land fill. But, after three or four, you run out of places to put them!
>And, most folks already *have* two or three so its hard to find
>places to gift them (esp as most folks want the TV to be "current"
>and aren't capable of driving it with external electronics that can
>be KEPT current).
>

I found a few good things in the elctronics recycle pile one block
from work next to the transfer station. Even a nice 4 channel
Tektronix scope. It worked for a couple of days until we came back
from lunch to find it all burned up. Must have gotten damp I think.

>Even the 1980-ish TV design job mentioned above was "lets replace the
>ANALOG signal path with digital electronics" to reduce cost and add features
>(e.g., imagine an analog implementation of PiP or "freeze frame", etc.)
>It wasn't intended to make things more reliable or easier to repair...
>

My dad worked in the TV/Radio repair business during the 1950s which
is why I got into electronics in the first place, I am pretty sure.
Dad was smart and a great mentor to me way back when.

>> I listed the Phoenix jobs available for TSMC below this. It is
>> interesting see what kinds of skills they are looking for. Looks like
>> most of them might be more or less permenant jobs ?
>> A few are low pay but geeeeez ! Look at the higher paying ones !
>
>Actually, they aren't really excessive. You can go build bombs for
>~$100K fresh out of school...
>

I meant the few jobs that went up to $200K+ but not a lot of those.

>They can't find folks for the non-technical (mask/production-related) jobs?
>They can't find an "IT Technician 1"? "Department Assistant"? "Director
>Public Relations"? "QR Administrative Secretary"?
>
>Is "must speak fluent Chinese" an unwritten requirement of these jobs
>(that would necessitate bringing folks in from Taiwan)? Or, "must have
>held an identical position at another similar foundry"?

Either that or English

>
>> TSMC is going to bring some Taiwanese people over here I understand.
>
>It will be interesting to see if they are similarly scorned as the
>"illegals" who harvest crops, maintain lawns, clean pools, prepare
>food, etc.
>
>> The feature size of in the <7 nm range but not TSMC's smallest. They
>> want to keep that technology in Taiwan evidently.
>
>Could be. Or, they could be wanting to see how effectively the
>larger geometries come on line before making a decision as to the
>finer ones.
>
>I'm sure they have thought about the future of their business if
>China gets even more aggressive -- do you abandon the fab?
>
>> Operators and maintenance fo those $billion dollar equipment (ASML)
>> from Holland is probably what they need the highly educate/trained for
>> in addition to the other cool stuff they do. Remember that nearby
>> Intel can't quite match the small feature sizes that TSMC is doing. Or
>> they couldn't as of the last couple years anyway.
>
>I think Intel is screwed by the x86 legacy. Too much of their
>"success" is tied up in that market. Historically, they were
>more diverse. They need to spinoff a subsidiary to take on
>more current designs, avoiding the PC legacy.
>
>> Do you know why they choose the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>> operations ? I heard it was because the ground doesn't move very
>> much there. They do require LOTS of water though which we know is not
>> as abundant as we would like... I guess that they can recycle much
>> better now though.
>

>I suspect they chose feenigs because of the size of the workforce with
>RELATED skillsets, etc. High tech isn't very well distributed in the
>state. It would be like setting up shop near Boston to tap into all
>of those universities' graduates (and existing tech companies).

Intel has fabs on Phoenix (Chandler) where you may be ?
Someone had to start there before there were a bunch of technically
skilled folks ? Microchip and On Semi and others have offices and
some prototype fabs I think. Maybe you know which ones ?

Anyway, I had seen and article or video about the lack of ground
movement that is imortant for fine featured ICs.

>
>> boB (wintering and working in the Phoenix area)
>
>Ah, I'm a *permanent* resident to your south -- enjoying the clear skies,
>warm weather, spectacular rainstorms, etc. (delightful meteor shower
>two? nights ago -- pity the folks who live under cloud cover!)
>

I LOVE being able to see the night sky even from Sun City but
esepecially a friends' place up near Wittman.

It's a bit hot right now in Phoenix so I am here in Everett and
Arlington, WA working while I am taking chemotherapy for cancer.
Probably best being here until October or November.
boB

>> HERE IS THE LIST...
>

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 07:10:40 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy711lee@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> > The feature size of in the <7 nm range but not TSMC's smallest. They
>> > want to keep that technology in Taiwan evidently.
>
>I believe they are bringing in the second-hand/second-life machines from Taiwan,
>to free-up space for newer machines there.
>
>> > Do you know why they choose the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>> > operations ? I heard it was because the ground doesn't move very
>> > much there. They do require LOTS of water though which we know is not
>> > as abundant as we would like... I guess that they can recycle much
>> > better now though.
>
>And energy. They could use as much energy as Phoenix itself.

My APS electricity I don't think has gone down in 3 and 1/2 years !

boB

On 8/15/2023 2:09 PM, boB wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 07:10:40 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
> <eddy711lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> The feature size of in the <7 nm range but not TSMC's smallest. They
>>>> want to keep that technology in Taiwan evidently.
>>
>> I believe they are bringing in the second-hand/second-life machines from Taiwan,
>> to free-up space for newer machines there.
>>
>>>> Do you know why they choose the Phoenix area for these kinds of
>>>> operations ? I heard it was because the ground doesn't move very
>>>> much there. They do require LOTS of water though which we know is not
>>>> as abundant as we would like... I guess that they can recycle much
>>>> better now though.
>>
>> And energy. They could use as much energy as Phoenix itself.
>
> My APS electricity I don't think has gone down in 3 and 1/2 years !

Our service is below grade. Cables are intended to be replaced
at 20? years. Of course, they've waited closer to 40!
So, they've been failing, one at a time.

As power is daisy-chained, a failure in one wire isolates
the downstream loads. Workers come out and reroute power
to that isolated portion from the "other end", isolating the
failed wire before doing so.

Now, you have two segments where there previously was one.

Eventually, they pull a new cable (interesting process!).

Meanwhile, another wire will fail in one of those two segments
dropping other loads.

They keep playing wack-a-mole until, eventually, the whole
circuit will be replaced. Who knows how the power will be
routed, at that time (they presumably do but "The Maps Are
Always Wrong" TmReg)

Amusingly, this always seems to happen at night -- when you
would expect the load to be LOWER!

On 8/15/2023 2:08 PM, boB wrote:

>>> Don, you must be older like me ? I'm 69.
>>
>> "Like" is a relative term. :> But, yes, my career started almost 50
>> years ago. <frown>
>
> I started just over 50 years ago after high school, not counting the 7
> years 5 or 6 years earlier building ham radio stuff at around age 12.
> Certainly not counting the earlier years sticking things into AC
> outlets, etc. :)

Ah, you did that, too?

"Gee, I wish I could listen to this crystal set in my bedroom! Hmm,
it's got two wires and the outlet by my bed has two, as well..."

>>> I used to fix TVs way back when. None of that going on here either
>>> nowadays. Well, maybe very slightly.
>>
>> Most consumer kit is disposable. The days of "pulling all the tubes and
>> heading up to the drug store to use their tube tester" are long past.
>>
>> I used to "rescue" discarded (LCD/LED) TVs to divert them from the
>> land fill. But, after three or four, you run out of places to put them!
>> And, most folks already *have* two or three so its hard to find
>> places to gift them (esp as most folks want the TV to be "current"
>> and aren't capable of driving it with external electronics that can
>> be KEPT current).
>
> I found a few good things in the elctronics recycle pile one block
> from work next to the transfer station. Even a nice 4 channel
> Tektronix scope. It worked for a couple of days until we came back
> from lunch to find it all burned up. Must have gotten damp I think.

I've volunteered at a few groups that try to divert items from
landfills: reuse, repurpose, recycle. If I could repair something
that they could then give to some underprivileged kid, then it
solves two problems! Or, refurbish a bit of medical kit to send to
MX, central america, etc. (we even rescued an electron microscope!
Amazing the stuff people "discard") Or, refurbing electric wheelchairs
(nasty process as many are urine soaked, etc.).

[I built a system to "sanitize" disks prior to reuse "quickly".
Then, obsoleted it by automating a self-test procedure that
would run diagnostic code in the machine-to-be-rescued and
wipe the disk in the process. Then, install a new OS so it
could be warehoused until a need found]

The big problem is that folks who get things for free tend not to value
them. Or, they expect perpetual free support! (ain't gonna happen!)

[I've subsequently refocused my efforts to address a "better" need]

>> Even the 1980-ish TV design job mentioned above was "lets replace the
>> ANALOG signal path with digital electronics" to reduce cost and add features
>> (e.g., imagine an analog implementation of PiP or "freeze frame", etc.)
>> It wasn't intended to make things more reliable or easier to repair...
>
> My dad worked in the TV/Radio repair business during the 1950s which
> is why I got into electronics in the first place, I am pretty sure.
> Dad was smart and a great mentor to me way back when.

Ah. My folks were factory workers. I learned most of the Trades
being around their many blue-collar family/associates (auto maintenance,
plumbing, carpentry, electrical, small engine repair, roofing, tuck
pointing, small/major appliance repair, etc.).

I had no specific interest in electronics; just figuring out how things
work and fixing them. Though I did *assemble* a Dynaco PAT5 & 400,
an AM transmitter and a few other "toys". Designed a digital lock
using parts salvaged from pin setters (!), a CDI, a setback thermostat,
keypad lock for the garage door opener, digital/microprocessor-based
timepieces, etc.

Folks around me knew nothing of electronics so anything in that realm I
had to learn on my own. Programs for gifted students in grammar school
exposed me to lots of other bits of science and, eventually, technology.

Now, my interests are more along the lines of how far into the fringes
I can push technology to do things better by adopting less conventional
approaches.

[And, of course, the always popular mind-f*cks that leave people
off-balance! (E.g., A clock that displays time in LEDs arranged as
*braille* cells)]

>> I suspect they chose feenigs because of the size of the workforce with
>> RELATED skillsets, etc. High tech isn't very well distributed in the
>> state. It would be like setting up shop near Boston to tap into all
>> of those universities' graduates (and existing tech companies).
>
> Intel has fabs on Phoenix (Chandler) where you may be ?
> Someone had to start there before there were a bunch of technically
> skilled folks ? Microchip and On Semi and others have offices and
> some prototype fabs I think. Maybe you know which ones ?

Not much knowledge of feenigs metro. Had a colleague who went to
work for Microchip (?) many years ago. But, most of the folks
I interact with, regularly, are self-employed so I can't comment
on "normal work".

> Anyway, I had seen and article or video about the lack of ground
> movement that is imortant for fine featured ICs.

Could be. I suspect it needs to not just be "localized stability".
E.g., I recall a metrology lab at a place I worked where they isolated
that corner of the building (heavy manufacturing equipment) and sank
supports deep into the bedrock to keep things from shaking.

>>> boB (wintering and working in the Phoenix area)
>>
>> Ah, I'm a *permanent* resident to your south -- enjoying the clear skies,
>> warm weather, spectacular rainstorms, etc. (delightful meteor shower
>> two? nights ago -- pity the folks who live under cloud cover!)
>
> I LOVE being able to see the night sky even from Sun City but
> esepecially a friends' place up near Wittman.

It seems they make an effort to control the amount of skyward
light leaks (no doubt the emphasis on astronomy). The street
lights, parking lot illumination, etc. are all mandated to
control light pollution.

Our neighborhood is pretty dark -- except for the right-wingers
who live in perpetual fear of some crime being committed (IME,
most happens during daylight!).

I used to lie on the roof to watch the meteor showers but now
just stand, looking upward, on terra firma. It particularly makes
a difference for the Leonids!

> It's a bit hot right now in Phoenix so I am here in Everett and

Ah, you *noticed* that? :>

> Arlington, WA working while I am taking chemotherapy for cancer.

Sorry to hear that. Hopefully, it turns things around!

> Probably best being here until October or November.

Yeah, October tends to mark the return of the Winter Visitors...
when all the retail prices go up to take advantage of their
(coerced) largesse! :>