Eye-opening factoid:

IEA Executive Director Fatih Birol told The Associated Press in an interview that there is a long line of renewable projects waiting for the green light to connect to the grid. The stalled projects could generate 1,500 gigawatts of power, or five times the amount of solar and wind capacity that was added worldwide last year, he said.

https://apnews.com/article/renewable-energy-climate-change-electrical-grids-82d1fedd21e58d36e27c6c2396498c0c

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:08:01 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> Eye-opening factoid:
>
> IEA Executive Director Fatih Birol told The Associated Press in an interview that there is a long line of renewable projects waiting for the green light to connect to the grid. The stalled projects could generate 1,500 gigawatts of power, or five times the amount of solar and wind capacity that was added worldwide last year, he said.
>
> https://apnews.com/article/renewable-energy-climate-change-electrical-grids-82d1fedd21e58d36e27c6c2396498c0c

Don't worry, the next solar storm will kill off all our grids, green or not.. The estimated 200 years cycle will hit us eventually, in our lifetime.

"Geomagnetic storm of 1859, also called Carrington storm, largest geomagnetic storm ever recorded. The storm, which occurred on Sept. 2, 1859, produced intense auroral displays as far south as the tropics. It also caused fires as the enhanced electric current flowing through telegraph wires ignited recording tape at telegraph stations."

https://www.britannica.com/event/geomagnetic-storm-of-1859

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 08:07:55 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>Eye-opening factoid:
>
>IEA Executive Director Fatih Birol told The Associated Press in an interview that there is a long line of renewable projects waiting for the green light to connect to the grid. The stalled projects could generate 1,500 gigawatts of power, or five times the amount of solar and wind capacity that was added worldwide last year, he said.
>
>https://apnews.com/article/renewable-energy-climate-change-electrical-grids-82d1fedd21e58d36e27c6c2396498c0c

The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
copper futures.

The idea of averaging solar and wind between states and countries adds
to the fun.

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35 PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:

> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
> copper futures.

Huh?
Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
are likely to be built.

Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge..

Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
>
>> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
>> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
>> copper futures.
>
>Huh?
>Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
>are likely to be built.
>
>Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
>liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
>just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.

I meant offshore windmills that deliver power to onshore loads. That's
popular lately, as long as the windmills aren't visible from
Nantucket.

>
>Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.

I thought that the point of an all-electric all-renewable world was to
have wind and solar power the grid.

Even a dinky power line needs right-of-way, construction access and
crews, poles, insulators, wires, maintenance. If it only transmits a
megawatt, or less, some of the time, the costs will make the windmill
or solar panel unattractive.

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
>
>> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
>> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
>> copper futures.
>
>Huh?
>Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
>are likely to be built.
>
>Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
>liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
>just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
>
>Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/10/18/iea-grid-lack-of-ambition-endangering-the-green-energy-revolution/

"Achieving all national climate and energy goals will require adding
or replacing 80 million kilometres of power lines by 2040 – an amount
equal to the entire existing global grid – according to a detailed
country-by-country analysis carried out for the report. Major changes
to how grids operate and are regulated are also essential, while
annual investment in grids, which has remained broadly stagnant, needs
to double to more than USD 600 billion a year by 2030."

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 16:35:22 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 6:38:52?PM UTC-4, john larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
>> >
>> >> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
>> >> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
>> >> copper futures.
>> >
>> >Huh?
>> >Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
>> >are likely to be built.
>> >
>> >Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
>> >liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
>> >just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
>> >
>> >Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.
>> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/10/18/iea-grid-lack-of-ambition-endangering-the-green-energy-revolution/
>>
>>
>> "Achieving all national climate and energy goals will require adding
>> or replacing 80 million kilometres of power lines by 2040 – an amount
>> equal to the entire existing global grid – according to a detailed
>> country-by-country analysis carried out for the report. Major changes
>> to how grids operate and are regulated are also essential, while
>> annual investment in grids, which has remained broadly stagnant, needs
>> to double to more than USD 600 billion a year by 2030."
>
>That's worldwide, not just the U.S. Looks like they're going to have to settle for less.

The power of an NG or coal or nuke power plant is gigawatts in a
fairly small footprint, and a pretty big solar site or windmill is
megawatts. And the power plant uses its transmission lines 24/7.

So the USA will have to be covered with a lot of miles of fairly fine
mesh of transmission lines. The low duty cycle uses copper
inefficiently.

Goofy. It probably won't happen.

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 6:29:51 PM UTC-4, john larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
> >
> >> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
> >> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
> >> copper futures.
> >
> >Huh?
> >Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
> >are likely to be built.
> >
> >Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
> >liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
> >just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
> I meant offshore windmills that deliver power to onshore loads. That's
> popular lately, as long as the windmills aren't visible from
> Nantucket.
> >
> >Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.
> I thought that the point of an all-electric all-renewable world was to
> have wind and solar power the grid.
>
> Even a dinky power line needs right-of-way, construction access and
> crews, poles, insulators, wires, maintenance. If it only transmits a
> megawatt, or less, some of the time, the costs will make the windmill
> or solar panel unattractive.

I think most offshore wind farms are multiples of GW these days. And, in the U.S. anyway, they're not real far out in the water. Most of them seem to be 10-20 miles, some are even closer. That's not a lot of line. And does anyone waste their time building out a solar plant less than 500 MW?

Seems the Texas model for wind power worked pretty well. It's quite massive, and the impetus was to extract 'free' energy, not anything to do with climate. Once they realized the huge savings to be had, it went into service quite rapidly.

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 5:05:37 PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:

> So the USA will have to be covered with a lot of miles of fairly fine
> mesh of transmission lines. The low duty cycle uses copper
> inefficiently.
>
> Goofy. It probably won't happen.

Well, not in the whole USA. Texas, Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto
Rico... aren't on "the grid" now. As for 'low duty cycle' that
circumstance favors investment in grid-connected storage, I guess.

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 9:29:51 AM UTC+11, john larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
> >
> >> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore - is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy copper futures.

Or beefing up existing links.

> >Huh? Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines' are likely to be built.

At least some of the wires are going to be aluminium clad steel cable.

https://apar.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/7.-Aluminium-clad-steel-wire.pdf

> >Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe.

That means throwing away 75% of the energy collected. Just putting the energy into battereies or pumped storage throws away about 15%

> > Or, just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.

That got it backwards.

> I meant offshore windmills that deliver power to onshore loads. That's popular lately, as long as the windmills aren't visible from Nantucket.

People are getting more relaxed about seeing wind farms on the horizon.

> >Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.

Why is off-shore supposed to be off the grid? It will probably be shipped onshore as 500kV DC, but that will be functionally part of the grid.

> I thought that the point of an all-electric all-renewable world was to have wind and solar power the grid.
>
> Even a dinky power line needs right-of-way, construction access and crews, poles, insulators, wires, maintenance. If it only transmits a megawatt, or less, some of the time, the costs will make the windmill or solar panel unattractive.

And pigs might fly. Or John Larkin might learn stuff, including how to think. Both are equally improbable.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 9:38:52 AM UTC+11, john larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
> >
> >> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
> >> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
> >> copper futures.
> >
> >Huh?
> >Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
> >are likely to be built.
> >
> >Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
> >liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
> >just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
> >
> >Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.
> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/10/18/iea-grid-lack-of-ambition-endangering-the-green-energy-revolution/
>
>
> "Achieving all national climate and energy goals will require adding
> or replacing 80 million kilometres of power lines by 2040 – an amount
> equal to the entire existing global grid – according to a detailed
> country-by-country analysis carried out for the report. Major changes
> to how grids operate and are regulated are also essential, while
> annual investment in grids, which has remained broadly stagnant, needs
> to double to more than USD 600 billion a year by 2030."

The US power grid grew at a steady 5% per year from the 1950's to about 2000, when the US started off-shoring manufacturing and generating capacity stagnated for some twenty years. It can start growing again at 5% per year without any drastic change in society , Getting rid of a few Republican politicans - the really dumb ones who like Donald Trump - might help.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 10:35:27 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 6:38:52 PM UTC-4, john larkin wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
> > >
> > >> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
> > >> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
> > >> copper futures.
> > >
> > >Huh?
> > >Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
> > >are likely to be built.
> > >
> > >Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
> > >liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
> > >just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
> > >
> > >Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.
> > https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/10/18/iea-grid-lack-of-ambition-endangering-the-green-energy-revolution/
> >
> >
> > "Achieving all national climate and energy goals will require adding
> > or replacing 80 million kilometres of power lines by 2040 – an amount
> > equal to the entire existing global grid – according to a detailed
> > country-by-country analysis carried out for the report. Major changes
> > to how grids operate and are regulated are also essential, while
> > annual investment in grids, which has remained broadly stagnant, needs
> > to double to more than USD 600 billion a year by 2030."
>
> That's worldwide, not just the U.S. Looks like they're going to have to settle for less.

Not to anybody with half a brain.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 11:05:37 AM UTC+11, john larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 16:35:22 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 6:38:52?PM UTC-4, john larkin wrote:
> >> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:

<snip>

> >That's worldwide, not just the U.S. Looks like they're going to have to settle for less.
>
> The power of an NG or coal or nuke power plant is gigawatts in a fairly small footprint, and a pretty big solar site or windmill is megawatts. And the power plant uses its transmission lines 24/7.

Put grid storage at the solar farm or wind farm and it too will use its transmission line 24/7.

And there 's no virtue in generating all your power in a very small footprint. It makes senses to distribute the power generation roughly as widely as the consumption. The sun shines and the wind blows petty much everywhere - you don't have to ship it in from a sun-mine or a wind-mine.
> So the USA will have to be covered with a lot of miles of fairly fine mesh of transmission lines.

It already is.

> The low duty cycle uses copper inefficiently.

Transmission lines are build with aluminium-coated steel cables, and if you want to use them more efficiently put grid storage at the solar farms and wind farms.

> Goofy. It probably won't happen.

John Larkin does post goofy misapprehensions. Next he'll be telling us his ideas about climate change - all drawn fro Anthony Watts' climate change denial propaganda web-wsite.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
>
>> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
>> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
>> copper futures.
>
>Huh?
>Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
>are likely to be built.
>
>Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
>liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
>just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
>
>Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.

For offshore wind plants, use HVDC to carry the power to the shore in
aluminum underwater cables.

If the power is in HVDC format use underground cables also on shore.
There will be much less right-of-way issues with underground cables
than with HV AC poles. Do the DC to AC conversion closer to the
consumption.

In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 11:56:00 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 10:35:27 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 6:38:52 PM UTC-4, john larkin wrote:
> > > On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
> > > >> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
> > > >> copper futures.
> > > >
> > > >Huh?
> > > >Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
> > > >are likely to be built.
> > > >
> > > >Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
> > > >liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
> > > >just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
> > > >
> > > >Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.
> > > https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/10/18/iea-grid-lack-of-ambition-endangering-the-green-energy-revolution/
> > >
> > >
> > > "Achieving all national climate and energy goals will require adding
> > > or replacing 80 million kilometres of power lines by 2040 – an amount
> > > equal to the entire existing global grid – according to a detailed
> > > country-by-country analysis carried out for the report. Major changes
> > > to how grids operate and are regulated are also essential, while
> > > annual investment in grids, which has remained broadly stagnant, needs
> > > to double to more than USD 600 billion a year by 2030."
> >
> > That's worldwide, not just the U.S. Looks like they're going to have to settle for less.
> Not to anybody with half a brain.

U.S. is not going to pay for building out transmission lines worldwide. There are lots of third world situations that are already in hock from what little they do have.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 11:54:42 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 9:38:52 AM UTC+11, john larkin wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
> > >
> > >> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
> > >> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
> > >> copper futures.
> > >
> > >Huh?
> > >Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
> > >are likely to be built.
> > >
> > >Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
> > >liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
> > >just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
> > >
> > >Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.
> > https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/10/18/iea-grid-lack-of-ambition-endangering-the-green-energy-revolution/
> >
> >
> > "Achieving all national climate and energy goals will require adding
> > or replacing 80 million kilometres of power lines by 2040 – an amount
> > equal to the entire existing global grid – according to a detailed
> > country-by-country analysis carried out for the report. Major changes
> > to how grids operate and are regulated are also essential, while
> > annual investment in grids, which has remained broadly stagnant, needs
> > to double to more than USD 600 billion a year by 2030."
> The US power grid grew at a steady 5% per year from the 1950's to about 2000, when the US started off-shoring manufacturing and generating capacity stagnated for some twenty years. It can start growing again at 5% per year without any drastic change in society , Getting rid of a few Republican politicans - the really dumb ones who like Donald Trump - might help.

(1.05)^n=2, makes n= Log(2)/log(1.05)= 14 years. Allowing 5 years to get the ball rolling puts it at 2023 +20= 2043. They're not going to make it. The world will be a sizzling cauldron before then.

Power suppliers size lines with an allowance of 3% loss at full capacity, and the present situation demonstrates they're not exactly brilliant when it comes to anticipation of growth.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 10/19/23 13:58, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
> [...]
>
> In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
> DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.

Edison avenged at last!

Jeroen Belleman

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 7:58:46 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
> >
> >> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
> >> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
> >> copper futures.
> >
> >Huh?
> >Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
> >are likely to be built.
> >
> >Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
> >liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
> >just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
> >
> >Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.
> For offshore wind plants, use HVDC to carry the power to the shore in
> aluminum underwater cables.
>
> If the power is in HVDC format use underground cables also on shore.
> There will be much less right-of-way issues with underground cables
> than with HV AC poles. Do the DC to AC conversion closer to the
> consumption.
>
> In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
> DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.

Undergrounding has major right of way issues, far more than overhead, because it's MUCH more expensive, requiring that it take the most direct route. In U.S., 1M$/mi in built up areas may be an underestimate.

The industry is pushing UHVDC, U as in ultra, to double the capacity of existing right of ways. But is it has been implemented in very few places. China is breaking ground on the technology.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 14:58:34 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:41:35?PM UTC-7, john larkin wrote:
>>
>>> The distributed nature of solar and wind power - especially offshore -
>>> is going to require millions of miles of new transmission lines. Buy
>>> copper futures.
>>
>>Huh?
>>Steel poles, with aluminum wires, is how 'miles of new transmission lines'
>>are likely to be built.
>>
>>Offshore (meaning ships at sea? archipelagos somewhere?) might use
>>liquid or gaseous hydrogen, delivered in batches or through a pipe. Or,
>>just economize, and when the batteries get low, take 'em ashore to recharge.
>>
>>Offshore (off-the-grid) can also have its own solar or wind facilities, of course.
>
>For offshore wind plants, use HVDC to carry the power to the shore in
>aluminum underwater cables.
>
>If the power is in HVDC format use underground cables also on shore.
>There will be much less right-of-way issues with underground cables
>than with HV AC poles. Do the DC to AC conversion closer to the
>consumption.
>
>In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
>DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.

Cost is no object.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 14:54:14 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

>On 10/19/23 13:58, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
>> DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.
>
>Edison avenged at last!
>
>Jeroen Belleman

Think of all the copper we can scavenge from all those transformers we
don't need anymore.

What voltage should an outlet in the kitchen be? 20 KVDC?

On 10/19/23 15:27, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 14:54:14 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>
>> On 10/19/23 13:58, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
>>> DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.
>>
>> Edison avenged at last!
>>
>> Jeroen Belleman
>
> Think of all the copper we can scavenge from all those transformers we
> don't need anymore.
>
> What voltage should an outlet in the kitchen be? 20 KVDC?
>

The economics may not be advantageous, but a hierarchy of
DC-DC converters could replace the current hierarchy of
transformers. At the lowest level, they already did: No
wal wart or small DC supply uses 50Hz transformers anymore.

Jeroen Belleman

On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 06:06:28 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

In a previous post you claimed that only 3 % losses are allowed at
full load. Such a low percentage makes sense only when the produced
electricity is very expensive, With unreliable renewable sources such
as wind and solar the peak to average rate is high and the electricity
price at peak production is very cheap (possibly negative) and much
large losses can be tolerated during peak production hours. The main
issue is going to be the conductor heating (and cable sagging with
overhead lines).

>On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 7:58:46?AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

<snip>

>> For offshore wind plants, use HVDC to carry the power to the shore in
>> aluminum underwater cables.
>>
>> If the power is in HVDC format use underground cables also on shore.
>> There will be much less right-of-way issues with underground cables
>> than with HV AC poles. Do the DC to AC conversion closer to the
>> consumption.
>>
>> In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
>> DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.

With HVDC source feeds, you are going to need DC/DC or DC/AC
converters, so adjusting variable input voltages (due to voltage
losses), the converter output to the customers can be made stable
regardless variable losses on the input side. A semiconductor (IGBT)
converter is much faster compared to a tap changer on an AC
transformer.

>Undergrounding has major right of way issues, far more than overhead,
>because it's MUCH more expensive,

The electric companies exaggerate those costs in order to just ivy
those ugly overhead lines. MV and LV cabling is not so much an issue.

Due to the much larger stray capacitance in underground / undersea
cables, making long HV AC cables impractical, or you have to install
compensating stations every few kilometer to get rid of the reactive
power, which increases the cost. Due to skin effect on 50/60 Hz it
does not make sense to use individual wires thicker than about 20-30
mm so you have to use multiple wires / phase separated from each other
on both overhead lines as well as underground cables.

With HVDC, the capacitance is your friend. Using aluminum conductors
instead of copper also reduces the cost and thick conductors can be
used, without worrying about skin effect.

The main issue with HVDC lines is the heat generated by the ohmic
(I2R) losses, so you have to use some separation between the two poles
not to heating the ground too much, drying out the ground around the
cables.

>requiring that it take the most direct route. In U.S., 1M$/mi in built up areas may be an underestimate.

Those US prices must be for AC lines in urban areas. The cost for HVDC
cables is much less.

>The industry is pushing UHVDC, U as in ultra, to double the capacity of existing right of ways. But is it has been implemented in very few places. China is breaking ground on the technology.

Sounds like old fashioned SCR based DC systems, which are usable in
long lines (over 1000 km) from a hydroelectric dam. Those SCR based
systems require switching the line voltage to opposite to transfer
power in opposite direction. Thus is usable only for point to point
applications, not for multi drop connections in a network.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 06:27:55 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 14:54:14 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>
>>On 10/19/23 13:58, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
>>> DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.
>>
>>Edison avenged at last!
>>
>>Jeroen Belleman
>
>Think of all the copper we can scavenge from all those transformers we
>don't need anymore.
>
>What voltage should an outlet in the kitchen be? 20 KVDC?

I vote for 400 Vdc. Some computer centers use 380 Vdc (+/-190 V), most
EVs have batteries at 400 V, although some are 800 V.

Perhaps +/-400 Vdc would also be OK, since it would be easy to make
three phase 230/400 Vac from it.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 00:49:56 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 06:27:55 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 14:54:14 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
>><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>
>>>On 10/19/23 13:58, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
>>>> DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.
>>>
>>>Edison avenged at last!
>>>
>>>Jeroen Belleman
>>
>>Think of all the copper we can scavenge from all those transformers we
>>don't need anymore.
>>
>>What voltage should an outlet in the kitchen be? 20 KVDC?
>
>I vote for 400 Vdc. Some computer centers use 380 Vdc (+/-190 V), most
>EVs have batteries at 400 V, although some are 800 V.

400 DC is probably safer than 240/50 and certainly safer than 120/60.

>
>Perhaps +/-400 Vdc would also be OK, since it would be easy to make
>three phase 230/400 Vac from it.

Since PoE has got popular, there are a lot of 54 volt wall-warts
around. That's an interesting voltage.

But for residential use, converting to DC outlets would make all our
gadgets obsolete, so that may not happen for a few hundred years.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 16:14:46 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 00:49:56 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 06:27:55 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 14:54:14 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
>>><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 10/19/23 13:58, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> In the future we might even have HVDC/MVDC/LVDC(/ELVDC) networks for
>>>>> DC distribution and LVDC/LVAC conversion at each electric motor.
>>>>
>>>>Edison avenged at last!
>>>>
>>>>Jeroen Belleman
>>>
>>>Think of all the copper we can scavenge from all those transformers we
>>>don't need anymore.
>>>
>>>What voltage should an outlet in the kitchen be? 20 KVDC?
>>
>>I vote for 400 Vdc. Some computer centers use 380 Vdc (+/-190 V), most
>>EVs have batteries at 400 V, although some are 800 V.
>
>400 DC is probably safer than 240/50 and certainly safer than 120/60.

With DC, you don't jump around at all, but cannot let go.

A boss that I met in the 1970s had personal experience: He touched a
600-Vdc bus in the power lab in the 1920s, and just froze. Eventually
somebody noticed and turned the power off. He did survive, and didn't
seem to be the worse for it.

>>Perhaps +/-400 Vdc would also be OK, since it would be easy to make
>>three phase 230/400 Vac from it.

I'd worry about Arc Flash if the power source is stiff. Above about
300 Volts AC, arcs won't extinguish. Lower for DC.

>Since PoE has got popular, there are a lot of 54 volt wall-warts
>around. That's an interesting voltage.
>
>But for residential use, converting to DC outlets would make all our
>gadgets obsolete, so that may not happen for a few hundred years.

Exactly. I don't think that any outlet ever used in the UK has been
outlawed and replaced. Used to be that one bought an appliance
without plug and also the correct plug for your house, and installed
plug on wire. Don't know if this is still true, but I did find some
strange beasts in London in late September.

Joe Gwinn