Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systems
family of uP's.

Any comments?

john larkin <jl@650pot.com> Wrote in message:r
> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systemsfamily of uP's.Any comments?

I've only seen them on assemblies, and no certification s .
Why not an arm? Ti?

Cheers
--

----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 22:57:31 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

>john larkin <jl@650pot.com> Wrote in message:r
>> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systemsfamily of uP's.Any comments?
>
>I've only seen them on assemblies, and no certification s .
>Why not an arm? Ti?
>
>Cheers

I'm thinking about using the RP2040 in some products, and some of my
engineers suggested some alternates, including ESP32.

I like the 2040 but it has no floating point hardware and no ethernet
MAC.

The ESP32 looks dicey to me, but I wondered is anyone has used it. It
seems aimed at high volume wireless applications.

On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 9:21:19 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 22:57:31 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
> <martin...@verison.net> wrote:
>
> >john larkin <j...@650pot.com> Wrote in message:r
> >> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systemsfamily of uP's.Any comments?

> I'm thinking about using the RP2040 in some products, and some of my
> engineers suggested some alternates, including ESP32.
>
> I like the 2040 but it has no floating point hardware and no ethernet
> MAC.

Floating hardware isn't a big problem, if you want speed there's
fixed-point packages and DSP hardware for that niche...
As for Ethernet, my MacBook doesn't have it either; you
gotta get a dongle for the USB to go to Ethernet (2.5Gb available),
and the Pi pico has enough hardware to host USB from the GPIO.

On Tuesday 30 January 2024 at 00:19:33 UTC+1, john larkin wrote:
> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systems
> family of uP's.
>
> Any comments?

I have used it.

You get amazing performance price ratio. In fact orders cheaper than solutions from TI etc.
Espressif is moving fast, so the SW tool box keeps building fast.
On the HW side, the ADC is total crap.

Security: The latest C3 has been broken with side attack, but almost anything can be broken if you spend enough time.

On 2024-01-29, john larkin wrote:
>
> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systems
> family of uP's.
>
> Any comments?

Only in the "Arduino" ecosystem ... and then I went back to AVR, mostly
because the Atmel datasheets are so very much better than Expressif's;
but also because my dinky little hobby-level projects don't really need
anything else.

A lot of people seem to like them (at least in the hobby circles I
frequent), so I suppose they're ultimately not all that bad.

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

john larkin <jl@650pot.com> writes:
> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systems
> family of uP's.

I have a friend who uses them so much he buys them in bulk, just for
personal use. One key thing to note though: there are a lot of people
making adapters for these, and not all do it correctly. The ESP32 is
the module, not the adapter! The module has an antenna on it and a lot
of the adapters place that antenna over their ground plane, rendering it
useless.

Example:

Note here that the black tab next to the shield is within the adapter's
footprint: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D5ZD528

Compare to this one where that tab, the antenna, is off the edge:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CDRM6BGQ

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 00:44:12 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 9:21:19?PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 22:57:31 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
>> <martin...@verison.net> wrote:
>>
>> >john larkin <j...@650pot.com> Wrote in message:r
>> >> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systemsfamily of uP's.Any comments?
>
>> I'm thinking about using the RP2040 in some products, and some of my
>> engineers suggested some alternates, including ESP32.
>>
>> I like the 2040 but it has no floating point hardware and no ethernet
>> MAC.
>
>Floating hardware isn't a big problem, if you want speed there's
>fixed-point packages and DSP hardware for that niche...
>As for Ethernet, my MacBook doesn't have it either; you
>gotta get a dongle for the USB to go to Ethernet (2.5Gb available),
>and the Pi pico has enough hardware to host USB from the GPIO.

My boxes will have both USB and PoE ethernet, so a dongle isn't
practical.

There are a couple of ethernet chips that are commonly used with the
2040. Both talk SPI and do high-level packet handling themselves...
mac and phy and apparently another processor. That's great but
involves one more sole-source part.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:07:42 -0500, DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> wrote:

>john larkin <jl@650pot.com> writes:
>> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systems
>> family of uP's.
>
>I have a friend who uses them so much he buys them in bulk, just for
>personal use. One key thing to note though: there are a lot of people
>making adapters for these, and not all do it correctly. The ESP32 is
>the module, not the adapter! The module has an antenna on it and a lot
>of the adapters place that antenna over their ground plane, rendering it
>useless.
>
>Example:
>
>Note here that the black tab next to the shield is within the adapter's
>footprint: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D5ZD528
>
>Compare to this one where that tab, the antenna, is off the edge:
>https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CDRM6BGQ

I was planning to buy chips, not boards.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/rf-transceiver-ics/879?s=N4IgTCBcDaIKYGcAOBmCBdAvkA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP32

It is interesting that they use three different CPU architectures in
their chips, including RISC-V, and that about a third of their chips
are NRND.

tirsdag den 30. januar 2024 kl. 17.26.25 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:07:42 -0500, DJ Delorie <d...@delorie.com> wrote:
>
> >john larkin <j...@650pot.com> writes:
> >> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systems
> >> family of uP's.
> >
> >I have a friend who uses them so much he buys them in bulk, just for
> >personal use. One key thing to note though: there are a lot of people
> >making adapters for these, and not all do it correctly. The ESP32 is
> >the module, not the adapter! The module has an antenna on it and a lot
> >of the adapters place that antenna over their ground plane, rendering it
> >useless.
> >
> >Example:
> >
> >Note here that the black tab next to the shield is within the adapter's
> >footprint: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D5ZD528
> >
> >Compare to this one where that tab, the antenna, is off the edge:
> >https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CDRM6BGQ
> I was planning to buy chips, not boards.
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/rf-transceiver-ics/879?s=N4IgTCBcDaIKYGcAOBmCBdAvkA
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP32
>
> It is interesting that they use three different CPU architectures in
> their chips, including RISC-V, and that about a third of their chips
> are NRND.

I think they just started with the Xtensa because that was what they used for the previous IC ESP8266
before switching to RISC-V which is pretty much the open-source alternative to ARM

the NRND are probably early revisions that wasn't made much

On 1/30/2024 1:44 AM, whit3rd wrote:
> Floating hardware isn't a big problem, if you want speed there's
> fixed-point packages and DSP hardware for that niche...

I used to eschew FP due to availability. I've since grown
to adopt that same stance after seeing how many folks
think it a panacea (and eschew error handling!). I rewrote
my speech synthesizers to use integer math (Q) and they run
slicker'n snot! As a result, I can scale the system clock
down by almost two orders of magnitude to extend battery life
(small devices use small batteries)

I provide Big Decimal Rationals for the code that users
are allowed to write figuring it's easier than explaining
rounding, cancellation, over/underflow, etc. to them.
(hard enough getting engineers to appreciate these things!)
Wanna determine the average number of atoms in the universe
per person? Knock yourself out!

> As for Ethernet, my MacBook doesn't have it either; you
> gotta get a dongle for the USB to go to Ethernet (2.5Gb available),
> and the Pi pico has enough hardware to host USB from the GPIO.

So, now you need a USB stack AND a network stack.
And, are limited to what the dongle "understands"
behind the USB stack. Along with the limitations
of BOTH of those pipes.

E.g., no PTP, PoE, etc.

tirsdag den 30. januar 2024 kl. 09.44.17 UTC+1 skrev whit3rd:
> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 9:21:19 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 22:57:31 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
> > <martin...@verison.net> wrote:
> >
> > >john larkin <j...@650pot.com> Wrote in message:r
> > >> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systemsfamily of uP's.Any comments?
> > I'm thinking about using the RP2040 in some products, and some of my
> > engineers suggested some alternates, including ESP32.
> >
> > I like the 2040 but it has no floating point hardware and no ethernet
> > MAC.
> Floating hardware isn't a big problem, if you want speed there's
> fixed-point packages and DSP hardware for that niche...
> As for Ethernet, my MacBook doesn't have it either; you
> gotta get a dongle for the USB to go to Ethernet (2.5Gb available),
> and the Pi pico has enough hardware to host USB from the GPIO.

a USB host just to get ethernet makes little sense when you can get SPI ethernet
or MCUs with build in ethernet

DJ Delorie wrote:
> john larkin writes:
>> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systems
>> family of uP's.
>
> I have a friend who uses them so much he buys them in bulk, just for
> personal use. One key thing to note though: there are a lot of people
> making adapters for these, and not all do it correctly. The ESP32 is
> the module, not the adapter! The module has an antenna on it and a lot
> of the adapters place that antenna over their ground plane, rendering it
> useless.
>
> Example:
>
> Note here that the black tab next to the shield is within the adapter's
> footprint: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D5ZD528
>
> Compare to this one where that tab, the antenna, is off the edge:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CDRM6BGQ

Very interesting. Thank you for the tip.

* * *

As an aside, WiFi antennas always attract my interest. Here's the two
intregrated antenna arrays in a Cisco exposed:

<https://crcomp.net/misc/cisco/1.png>

Given its larger element size, the left likely covers 2.4 GHz while right
uses 5 GHz. The left elements are approximately 8.5 mm above the ground
plane while the right are about 5.5 mm.

Danke,

--
Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:48:16 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>tirsdag den 30. januar 2024 kl. 09.44.17 UTC+1 skrev whit3rd:
>> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 9:21:19?PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
>> > On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 22:57:31 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
>> > <martin...@verison.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > >john larkin <j...@650pot.com> Wrote in message:r
>> > >> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systemsfamily of uP's.Any comments?
>> > I'm thinking about using the RP2040 in some products, and some of my
>> > engineers suggested some alternates, including ESP32.
>> >
>> > I like the 2040 but it has no floating point hardware and no ethernet
>> > MAC.
>> Floating hardware isn't a big problem, if you want speed there's
>> fixed-point packages and DSP hardware for that niche...
>> As for Ethernet, my MacBook doesn't have it either; you
>> gotta get a dongle for the USB to go to Ethernet (2.5Gb available),
>> and the Pi pico has enough hardware to host USB from the GPIO.
>
>a USB host just to get ethernet makes little sense when you can get SPI ethernet
>or MCUs with build in ethernet

WizNet and Microchip both have spi-interfaced ethernet chips, 100M and
1G speeds respectively.

Silvertel and others have cute PoE isolated regulated power supplies.

On 1/30/2024 10:48 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> a USB host just to get ethernet makes little sense when you can get SPI ethernet
> or MCUs with build in ethernet

SPI ethernet is silly. Why don't you just twiddle bits on the wire
if you're going that route? <rolls eyes>

The pipe to the network should (likely) be fatter than the pipe to the
rest of your I/Os.

[I made a "sugarcube" for my terminal server that puts the MCU
and PHY hardware together, connecting the rest of the I/Os to
it over SPI (USB would have been a mistake). So, if I want
a "terminal server", I glob a *cheap* MCU with SPI and UART
(in hardware or software) onto it and let the two move data
over the SPI link between them. So, the sugarcube can have
a full IP4/6 stack and not have to worry about getting
data in and out of the NIC fast enough!

The sugarcube partitioning lets me put other devices on the
far end of the SPI to suit the laundry list of requests I
had from colleagues (i.e., the network stack is where all
of the value lies)]

On 2024-01-30 06:19, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 22:57:31 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
> <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
>
>> john larkin <jl@650pot.com> Wrote in message:r
>>> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systemsfamily of uP's.Any comments?
>>
>> I've only seen them on assemblies, and no certification s .
>> Why not an arm? Ti?
>>
>> Cheers
>
> I'm thinking about using the RP2040 in some products, and some of my
> engineers suggested some alternates, including ESP32.
>
> I like the 2040 but it has no floating point hardware and no ethernet
> MAC.
>
> The ESP32 looks dicey to me, but I wondered is anyone has used it. It
> seems aimed at high volume wireless applications.
>

You want ethernet? I'm looking at the STM32H563ZIT6.
2MB flash, 640kB RAM (who needs more...), 250MHz 32bit ARM Cortx M33, ethernet MAC.
Lots of peripherals. I like the LQFP 144 20X20X1.4mm package.
Very extensive free tool chain. Already ordered a devkit.

https://estore.st.com/en/stm32h563zit6-cpn.html chip $10 @1pcs
https://estore.st.com/en/nucleo-h563zi-cpn.html dev kit $28

Arie

tirsdag den 30. januar 2024 kl. 19.49.44 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
> On 1/30/2024 10:48 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > a USB host just to get ethernet makes little sense when you can get SPI ethernet
> > or MCUs with build in ethernet
> SPI ethernet is silly. Why don't you just twiddle bits on the wire
> if you're going that route? <rolls eyes>

it is a lot less silly that implementing a USB host to get ethernet on a small MCU

On 1/30/2024 12:16 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> tirsdag den 30. januar 2024 kl. 19.49.44 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
>> On 1/30/2024 10:48 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> a USB host just to get ethernet makes little sense when you can get SPI ethernet
>>> or MCUs with build in ethernet
>> SPI ethernet is silly. Why don't you just twiddle bits on the wire
>> if you're going that route? <rolls eyes>
>
> it is a lot less silly that implementing a USB host to get ethernet on a small MCU

Oh, undoubtedly!

But, out-facing interfaces leave you at the mercy (resources) of
other actors -- even non-malevolent ones! (folks always seem surprised
at how much network traffic THEY have to process, even if not related
to THEIR application!)

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:49:32 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 1/30/2024 10:48 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> a USB host just to get ethernet makes little sense when you can get SPI ethernet
>> or MCUs with build in ethernet
>
>SPI ethernet is silly. Why don't you just twiddle bits on the wire
>if you're going that route? <rolls eyes>

Be careful to not damage your vision.

Somebody actually did 10 Mbps ethernet by bit-banging an RP2040 chip.
That doesn't sound like a productive use of one's time.

The spi chips are mac+phy and handle entire packets and protocols.
That's a nice idea.

We can just ping it now and then and ask "do you have a packet for
us?" We can share the Spi data and clock lines with ADCs and memory
chips and such, to save port pins.

>
>The pipe to the network should (likely) be fatter than the pipe to the
>rest of your I/Os.
>
>[I made a "sugarcube" for my terminal server that puts the MCU
>and PHY hardware together, connecting the rest of the I/Os to
>it over SPI (USB would have been a mistake). So, if I want
>a "terminal server", I glob a *cheap* MCU with SPI and UART
>(in hardware or software) onto it and let the two move data
>over the SPI link between them. So, the sugarcube can have
>a full IP4/6 stack and not have to worry about getting
>data in and out of the NIC fast enough!
>
>The sugarcube partitioning lets me put other devices on the
>far end of the SPI to suit the laundry list of requests I
>had from colleagues (i.e., the network stack is where all
>of the value lies)]
>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 20:02:53 +0100, Arie de Muijnck
<eternal.september@ademu.com> wrote:

>On 2024-01-30 06:19, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 22:57:31 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
>> <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
>>
>>> john larkin <jl@650pot.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systemsfamily of uP's.Any comments?
>>>
>>> I've only seen them on assemblies, and no certification s .
>>> Why not an arm? Ti?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>
>> I'm thinking about using the RP2040 in some products, and some of my
>> engineers suggested some alternates, including ESP32.
>>
>> I like the 2040 but it has no floating point hardware and no ethernet
>> MAC.
>>
>> The ESP32 looks dicey to me, but I wondered is anyone has used it. It
>> seems aimed at high volume wireless applications.
>>
>
>You want ethernet? I'm looking at the STM32H563ZIT6.
>2MB flash, 640kB RAM (who needs more...), 250MHz 32bit ARM Cortx M33, ethernet MAC.
>Lots of peripherals. I like the LQFP 144 20X20X1.4mm package.
>Very extensive free tool chain. Already ordered a devkit.
>
>https://estore.st.com/en/stm32h563zit6-cpn.html chip $10 @1pcs
>https://estore.st.com/en/nucleo-h563zi-cpn.html dev kit $28
>
>Arie

We use STM32F207IGT6 in a bunch of our products and test sets, and do
ethernet with just an external PHY and magnetics. But I really like
the Pi 2040 chip.

I want more than 2M flash too.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 10:37:16 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 1/30/2024 1:44 AM, whit3rd wrote:
>> Floating hardware isn't a big problem, if you want speed there's
>> fixed-point packages and DSP hardware for that niche...
>
>I used to eschew FP due to availability. I've since grown
>to adopt that same stance after seeing how many folks
>think it a panacea (and eschew error handling!). I rewrote
>my speech synthesizers to use integer math (Q) and they run
>slicker'n snot! As a result, I can scale the system clock
>down by almost two orders of magnitude to extend battery life
>(small devices use small batteries)
>
>I provide Big Decimal Rationals for the code that users
>are allowed to write figuring it's easier than explaining
>rounding, cancellation, over/underflow, etc. to them.
>(hard enough getting engineers to appreciate these things!)
>Wanna determine the average number of atoms in the universe
>per person? Knock yourself out!
>
>> As for Ethernet, my MacBook doesn't have it either; you
>> gotta get a dongle for the USB to go to Ethernet (2.5Gb available),
>> and the Pi pico has enough hardware to host USB from the GPIO.
>
>So, now you need a USB stack AND a network stack.
>And, are limited to what the dongle "understands"
>behind the USB stack. Along with the limitations
>of BOTH of those pipes.
>
>E.g., no PTP, PoE, etc.
>

Some fixed-point thing like 32-bit s12.20 can handle most any physical
thing, like volts or amps or whatever.

I once wrote a general-purpose math package for the 68332. It was
S32.32. The nice thing about such formats is that adds and subs don't
need to be normalized. And integer conversions are fast!

If I use the Pi2040, one core can do the ethernet, USB, parsing,
calibrations, number formatting, whatever, and pokey floats won't much
matter. The other core can do the process i/o and run bare-metal, bit
banging, fixed point math.

john larkin <jl@650pot.com> writes:

>Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systems
>family of uP's.

We have been using the OLIMEX demo board with POE Ethernet,
Bluetooth, Wifi, microwave and dishwasher. But it lacks GPIO
pins in that formfactor.

We're building some remote displays, and a 4-channel RS-485
board using TI ISOW14x2 drivers with built-in power isolation.

The software guru grouses about the build chain...

--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 1/30/2024 7:35 PM, David Lesher wrote:
> We have been using the OLIMEX demo board with POE Ethernet,
> Bluetooth, Wifi, microwave and dishwasher. But it lacks GPIO
> pins in that formfactor.
>
> We're building some remote displays, and a 4-channel RS-485
> board using TI ISOW14x2 drivers with built-in power isolation.
>
> The software guru grouses about the build chain...

As a "significant" (if not MAJOR) stakeholder, didn't he have
a say in the hardware design/processor selection?

On a sunny day (Tue, 30 Jan 2024 06:03:48 -0800 (PST)) it happened Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
<92ec06b5-0055-4e03-928f-2808eba2780cn@googlegroups.com>:

>On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:19:33 PM UTC-5, john larkin wrote:
>> Has anyone used any of the ESP32 parts? That's the Expressif Systems
>> family of uP's.
>>
>> Any comments?
>
>Elektor is sold on it. It's right up there with Raspberry Pi and Arduino:
>
>https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/get-started-esp32-microcontroller
>
>They should have some quick tutorial articles on it somewhere.
>
>Jan might edit all their technical content...

I've never used the thing, looks interesting though.
Most I need and can think of can be done with a Microchip 18F14K22....
or combined with a Raspberry Pi for the heavy work.
And Python? not for me.,
asm or C is the real thing.
I am looking for something other than Raspberry Pis (now Pi5 is coming),
so who knows...
But have several other interest, more into music these days...
Some physics experiments...
Anti graphitty you know..
Think I just cracked Podkeltnow's experiment.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Podkletnov

Now CIA will be after me.... Did they kill Ning Lee when she wanted to publish?
it may be so simple....
chirality
space is not empty, Le Sage
Long time ago in sci.physics there was a poster named 'Uncle Al' who had a theory..
was later tested with nill result IIRC.
I joked and said: "You are desribing a vacuum propeller"
But a superconducting chiral propeller in a Le Sage system should do exactly
what Podkletnow noticed, create a Le Sage particle wind.... passing through all matter
in one specific direction, like a beam from a fan through a grid.
Its so simple.

Does this help you :-)

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

>> The software guru grouses about the build chain...

>As a "significant" (if not MAJOR) stakeholder, didn't he have
>a say in the hardware design/processor selection?

Yes. He points out it's such a winner on the price/performance
window, it can't be ignored. Plus, the NXP boards he'd used
previously have been disappeared.

What BSD-friendly tools for the ESP32 exist?
--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433