A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/

NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/

Good call. Laser modulated transmissions can't be intercepted by a
third party without being detected.

Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>> NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>
> Good call. Laser modulated transmissions can't be intercepted by a
> third party without being detected.
>

You’re confusing free-space laser with fiber optics. In fiber you collect
all the light, so you can tell if some gets tapped off. You can also see
exactly where it happens by using OTDR.

In long range free space, most of the light misses the detector anyway, and
there isn’t any way to see where it went.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 18:28:47 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>> NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>>
>> Good call. Laser modulated transmissions can't be intercepted by a
>> third party without being detected.
>>
>
>You’re confusing free-space laser with fiber optics. In fiber you collect
>all the light, so you can tell if some gets tapped off. You can also see
>exactly where it happens by using OTDR.
>
>In long range free space, most of the light misses the detector anyway, and
>there isn’t any way to see where it went.

Fair point. Even lasers suffer from beam divergence. I stand
corrected, Phil!

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/

Perhaps NASA should just give the project and the money to SpaceX,
which already has a working space laser mesh communications system.

"SpaceX Reveals Operation of Over 8,000 'Space Lasers' Across Starlink
Satellite Constellation - Enabling Faster Internet" (Sep 26, 2023)
<https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/starlink-video>

Cute cat.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:17:20 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ct43pil1ft3o458ur4p32kmp7l2om7j5t2@4ax.com>:

>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>
>NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
>doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.

Really? how did they get into space a few million miles away?

On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 17:35:22 +0000) it happened Cursitor Doom
<cd@notformail.com> wrote in <jg93pi5tb5b7hs09e9uhlcltvf6p6o3cm7@4ax.com>:

>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>
>Good call. Laser modulated transmissions can't be intercepted by a
>third party without being detected.

Beam is wide enough for a second receiver station.

On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 05:56:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:17:20 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ct43pil1ft3o458ur4p32kmp7l2om7j5t2@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>>
>>NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
>>doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.
>
>Really? how did they get into space a few million miles away?

The folks that I know are doing LEO cubestats, cube to cube comm.

There are, for some odd reason, two cubesat companies within walking
distance of my office. Cubeville CA.

On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Jan 2024 08:21:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ddp5pid6em18b40pqoh8ph81mg588h7sqa@4ax.com>:

>On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 05:56:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:17:20 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ct43pil1ft3o458ur4p32kmp7l2om7j5t2@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>>>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>>>
>>>NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
>>>doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.
>>
>>Really? how did they get into space a few million miles away?
>
>The folks that I know are doing LEO cubesats, cube to cube comm.
>
>There are, for some odd reason, two cubesat companies within walking
>distance of my office. Cubeville CA.

I see you are offending other google using posters.. Drinking problem?
cubesats round the earth at low altitude.
Laser commi-nuka (sorry that was Reagan) communication to space was already used by the French years ago, 2001 ESA:
https://www.esa.int/Applications/Connectivity_and_Secure_Communications/A_world_first_Data_transmission_between_European_satellites_using_laser_light

You do not read! the article is about very long distance data transmission with lasers.
It is a NASA project
700 million is nothing compared to the money burned by the loss making US Military Industrial Complex
payed for by your taxes and even then creating an ever greater US debt and ever more US enemies, killing thousands,
eroding the dollar use (now below 60 percent of world wide used currency).

And we actually discussed the subject before, you did not know back then that a laser beam diverges.
That was just a few month ago.

So cool it man!

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:58:47 PM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 17:35:22 +0000) it happened Cursitor Doom
> <c...@notformail.com> wrote in <jg93pi5tb5b7hs09e...@4ax.com>:
> >On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
> >>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
> >> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
> >
> >Good call. Laser modulated transmissions can't be intercepted by a
> >third party without being detected.
> Beam is wide enough for a second receiver station.

Yeah, beam divergence gets the beam wide, when it has traveled a million miles
from Earth. That's a lot of volume, but unlikely to contain a second receiver station.

A second station in matched orbit is NOT a suitable spy, it'd be detected.

On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 06:17:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Jan 2024 08:21:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ddp5pid6em18b40pqoh8ph81mg588h7sqa@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 05:56:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:17:20 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ct43pil1ft3o458ur4p32kmp7l2om7j5t2@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>>>>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>>>>
>>>>NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
>>>>doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.
>>>
>>>Really? how did they get into space a few million miles away?
>>
>>The folks that I know are doing LEO cubesats, cube to cube comm.
>>
>>There are, for some odd reason, two cubesat companies within walking
>>distance of my office. Cubeville CA.
>
>I see you are offending other google using posters..

Did my paragraphs above offend you? Why?

>Drinking problem?

When Mo and I are in a wild mood, we split a beer.

>cubesats round the earth at low altitude.

Did I mention "LEO" ?

>Laser commi-nuka (sorry that was Reagan) communication to space was already used by the French years ago, 2001 ESA:
> https://www.esa.int/Applications/Connectivity_and_Secure_Communications/A_world_first_Data_transmission_between_European_satellites_using_laser_light
>
>You do not read! the article is about very long distance data transmission with lasers.
>It is a NASA project
>700 million is nothing compared to the money burned by the loss making US Military Industrial Complex
>payed for by your taxes and even then creating an ever greater US debt and ever more US enemies, killing thousands,
>eroding the dollar use (now below 60 percent of world wide used currency).
>
>And we actually discussed the subject before, you did not know back then that a laser beam diverges.

Except that I compared the divergence if a laser with that of a
microwave antenna. With numbers.

>That was just a few month ago.
>
>So cool it man!

Famous quote: "Don't be a jerk Mervin. Nobody likes jerks."

On a sunny day (Tue, 02 Jan 2024 08:32:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ctd8pilgi7p9tu5vkb3q4hr32j1b08g751@4ax.com>:

>On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 06:17:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Jan 2024 08:21:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ddp5pid6em18b40pqoh8ph81mg588h7sqa@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 05:56:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:17:20 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ct43pil1ft3o458ur4p32kmp7l2om7j5t2@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>>>>>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>>>>>
>>>>>NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
>>>>>doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.
>>>>
>>>>Really? how did they get into space a few million miles away?
>>>
>>>The folks that I know are doing LEO cubesats, cube to cube comm.
>>>
>>>There are, for some odd reason, two cubesat companies within walking
>>>distance of my office. Cubeville CA.
>>
>>I see you are offending other google using posters..
>
>Did my paragraphs above offend you? Why?
>
>>Drinking problem?
>
>When Mo and I are in a wild mood, we split a beer.
>
>>cubesats round the earth at low altitude.
>
>Did I mention "LEO" ?
>
>
>
>>Laser commi-nuka (sorry that was Reagan) communication to space was already used by the French years ago, 2001 ESA:
>>
>> https://www.esa.int/Applications/Connectivity_and_Secure_Communications/A_world_first_Data_transmission_between_European_satellites_using_laser_light
>>
>>You do not read! the article is about very long distance data transmission with lasers.
>>It is a NASA project
>>700 million is nothing compared to the money burned by the loss making US Military Industrial Complex
>>payed for by your taxes and even then creating an ever greater US debt and ever more US enemies, killing thousands,
>>eroding the dollar use (now below 60 percent of world wide used currency).
>>
>>And we actually discussed the subject before, you did not know back then that a laser beam diverges.
>
>Except that I compared the divergence if a laser with that of a
>microwave antenna. With numbers.
>
>>That was just a few month ago.
>>
>>So cool it man!
>
>Famous quote: "Don't be a jerk Mervin. Nobody likes jerks."

Well you contribution to the newsgroup are not that good
showing off 2k dollar giggle hertz scopes may be help sell?
Using things out of spec... all the time?

As to that 'security', when one laser hits an other cubesat, the beam is usualy a bit wider than the receiver's opening,
so part will reflect off, light that area of the usually shiny material the cube is made off.
Attacker just points a telescope from his own cubesat in space to that light and listens in.
Could even work from earth if skies are clear.
NOTHING is ever 100% secure,.
I was thinking just hack Hubble or Webb and have it point at the millions miles (or km if you wish) far away thing..
hacking those things is likely easy.

I am considering leaving Usenet (many happy now) since when was it? Win 3.1?
Anybody can visit https://panteltje.online if interested in projects I did.

Too many insults and bull here, like that CERN guy talking about creeps
A creep is an animal that possible lives in holes underground, like CERN people live in tunnels
are religious fanatics parroting Albert OneStone's hay is em see squared and think that by shooting Teslas
at close to light speed they will find out the programming of auto pilot and the inner construction of its chips
An other silly project looking for the 'god' particle
a dropping place for mamaticians where they do a divide by zero and lose grab of reality
then do re-normalization to come up with idiot things like holographic universes and string theory.
CERN even detected faster than light .. pity they did not know how their own equipment worked.
The creeps are sucking taxpayer money, keep people stupid,
use so much energy that the planet heats up incredibly fast and for more then 70 years now? have produced absolutely nothing useful.
Same as that laser fussion or was it fuzzy project you supply equipment to, and sane as ITER.
Always things need to be 'just a little bit bigger' and more money is needed.
Bomb shelters is likely best use of CERN.
So here my views, others working for the US mil complex never posting anything useful.
F35 sucks and is a noisy pest.

On Wed, 03 Jan 2024 06:43:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 02 Jan 2024 08:32:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ctd8pilgi7p9tu5vkb3q4hr32j1b08g751@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 06:17:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Jan 2024 08:21:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ddp5pid6em18b40pqoh8ph81mg588h7sqa@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 05:56:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:17:20 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ct43pil1ft3o458ur4p32kmp7l2om7j5t2@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>>>>>>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
>>>>>>doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.
>>>>>
>>>>>Really? how did they get into space a few million miles away?
>>>>
>>>>The folks that I know are doing LEO cubesats, cube to cube comm.
>>>>
>>>>There are, for some odd reason, two cubesat companies within walking
>>>>distance of my office. Cubeville CA.
>>>
>>>I see you are offending other google using posters..
>>
>>Did my paragraphs above offend you? Why?
>>
>>>Drinking problem?
>>
>>When Mo and I are in a wild mood, we split a beer.
>>
>>>cubesats round the earth at low altitude.
>>
>>Did I mention "LEO" ?
>>
>>
>>
>>>Laser commi-nuka (sorry that was Reagan) communication to space was already used by the French years ago, 2001 ESA:
>>>
>>> https://www.esa.int/Applications/Connectivity_and_Secure_Communications/A_world_first_Data_transmission_between_European_satellites_using_laser_light
>>>
>>>You do not read! the article is about very long distance data transmission with lasers.
>>>It is a NASA project
>>>700 million is nothing compared to the money burned by the loss making US Military Industrial Complex
>>>payed for by your taxes and even then creating an ever greater US debt and ever more US enemies, killing thousands,
>>>eroding the dollar use (now below 60 percent of world wide used currency).
>>>
>>>And we actually discussed the subject before, you did not know back then that a laser beam diverges.
>>
>>Except that I compared the divergence if a laser with that of a
>>microwave antenna. With numbers.
>>
>>>That was just a few month ago.
>>>
>>>So cool it man!
>>
>>Famous quote: "Don't be a jerk Mervin. Nobody likes jerks."
>
>Well you contribution to the newsgroup are not that good
>showing off 2k dollar giggle hertz scopes may be help sell?

We have a $60K LeCroy too. It has a 1ps RMS jitter floor.

If you plan to do serious fast stuff, a decent scope is necessary, and
fast scopes keep getting cheaper. Heck, you can get an old Tek
sampler, 30 GHz with TDR, for ballpark $600. New color digital scopes
cost about a dollar per MHz.

>Using things out of spec... all the time?

Only when there is a big performance payoff, and parts have been
tested enough to estimate the safety margin. The real problem with
specs is that one often doesn't get them, especially for RF parts.

>
>As to that 'security', when one laser hits an other cubesat, the beam is usualy a bit wider than the receiver's opening,
>so part will reflect off, light that area of the usually shiny material the cube is made off.
>Attacker just points a telescope from his own cubesat in space to that light and listens in.

The time of intercept will be seconds. That won't gather enough data
to break even modest encryption.

It's a lot more secure than spraying RF all over space.

John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Jan 2024 06:43:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On a sunny day (Tue, 02 Jan 2024 08:32:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ctd8pilgi7p9tu5vkb3q4hr32j1b08g751@4ax.com>:
>>
>>> On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 06:17:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Jan 2024 08:21:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ddp5pid6em18b40pqoh8ph81mg588h7sqa@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 05:56:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:17:20 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ct43pil1ft3o458ur4p32kmp7l2om7j5t2@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>>>>>>> NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
>>>>>>> doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really? how did they get into space a few million miles away?
>>>>>
>>>>> The folks that I know are doing LEO cubesats, cube to cube comm.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are, for some odd reason, two cubesat companies within walking
>>>>> distance of my office. Cubeville CA.
>>>>
>>>> I see you are offending other google using posters..
>>>
>>> Did my paragraphs above offend you? Why?
>>>
>>>> Drinking problem?
>>>
>>> When Mo and I are in a wild mood, we split a beer.
>>>
>>>> cubesats round the earth at low altitude.
>>>
>>> Did I mention "LEO" ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Laser commi-nuka (sorry that was Reagan) communication to space was
>>>> already used by the French years ago, 2001 ESA:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.esa.int/Applications/Connectivity_and_Secure_Communications/A_world_first_Data_transmission_between_European_satellites_using_laser_light
>>>>
>>>> You do not read! the article is about very long distance data transmission with lasers.
>>>> It is a NASA project
>>>> 700 million is nothing compared to the money burned by the loss making
>>>> US Military Industrial Complex
>>>> payed for by your taxes and even then creating an ever greater US debt
>>>> and ever more US enemies, killing thousands,
>>>> eroding the dollar use (now below 60 percent of world wide used currency).
>>>>
>>>> And we actually discussed the subject before, you did not know back
>>>> then that a laser beam diverges.
>>>
>>> Except that I compared the divergence if a laser with that of a
>>> microwave antenna. With numbers.
>>>
>>>> That was just a few month ago.
>>>>
>>>> So cool it man!
>>>
>>> Famous quote: "Don't be a jerk Mervin. Nobody likes jerks."
>>
>> Well you contribution to the newsgroup are not that good
>> showing off 2k dollar giggle hertz scopes may be help sell?
>
> We have a $60K LeCroy too. It has a 1ps RMS jitter floor.
>
> If you plan to do serious fast stuff, a decent scope is necessary, and
> fast scopes keep getting cheaper. Heck, you can get an old Tek
> sampler, 30 GHz with TDR, for ballpark $600. New color digital scopes
> cost about a dollar per MHz.
>
>> Using things out of spec... all the time?
>
> Only when there is a big performance payoff, and parts have been
> tested enough to estimate the safety margin. The real problem with
> specs is that one often doesn't get them, especially for RF parts.
>
>>
>> As to that 'security', when one laser hits an other cubesat, the beam is
>> usualy a bit wider than the receiver's opening,
>> so part will reflect off, light that area of the usually shiny material
>> the cube is made off.
>> Attacker just points a telescope from his own cubesat in space to that
>> light and listens in.
>
> The time of intercept will be seconds. That won't gather enough data
> to break even modest encryption.
>
> It's a lot more secure than spraying RF all over space.
>
>

Eavesdropping on optical communications in orbit is doomed by the photon
statistics. An ideal receiver gets a SNR of N/2B, where N is the photon
detection rate and B is the bandwidth.

(I expect that the Flying Dutchman has been hanging around SED too much,
and so has forgotten what SNR is. ) ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 17:06:21 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Jan 2024 06:43:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On a sunny day (Tue, 02 Jan 2024 08:32:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ctd8pilgi7p9tu5vkb3q4hr32j1b08g751@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 06:17:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Jan 2024 08:21:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ddp5pid6em18b40pqoh8ph81mg588h7sqa@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 05:56:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:17:20 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ct43pil1ft3o458ur4p32kmp7l2om7j5t2@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>>>>>>>> NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
>>>>>>>> doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really? how did they get into space a few million miles away?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The folks that I know are doing LEO cubesats, cube to cube comm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are, for some odd reason, two cubesat companies within walking
>>>>>> distance of my office. Cubeville CA.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see you are offending other google using posters..
>>>>
>>>> Did my paragraphs above offend you? Why?
>>>>
>>>>> Drinking problem?
>>>>
>>>> When Mo and I are in a wild mood, we split a beer.
>>>>
>>>>> cubesats round the earth at low altitude.
>>>>
>>>> Did I mention "LEO" ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Laser commi-nuka (sorry that was Reagan) communication to space was
>>>>> already used by the French years ago, 2001 ESA:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.esa.int/Applications/Connectivity_and_Secure_Communications/A_world_first_Data_transmission_between_European_satellites_using_laser_light
>>>>>
>>>>> You do not read! the article is about very long distance data transmission with lasers.
>>>>> It is a NASA project
>>>>> 700 million is nothing compared to the money burned by the loss making
>>>>> US Military Industrial Complex
>>>>> payed for by your taxes and even then creating an ever greater US debt
>>>>> and ever more US enemies, killing thousands,
>>>>> eroding the dollar use (now below 60 percent of world wide used currency).
>>>>>
>>>>> And we actually discussed the subject before, you did not know back
>>>>> then that a laser beam diverges.
>>>>
>>>> Except that I compared the divergence if a laser with that of a
>>>> microwave antenna. With numbers.
>>>>
>>>>> That was just a few month ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> So cool it man!
>>>>
>>>> Famous quote: "Don't be a jerk Mervin. Nobody likes jerks."
>>>
>>> Well you contribution to the newsgroup are not that good
>>> showing off 2k dollar giggle hertz scopes may be help sell?
>>
>> We have a $60K LeCroy too. It has a 1ps RMS jitter floor.
>>
>> If you plan to do serious fast stuff, a decent scope is necessary, and
>> fast scopes keep getting cheaper. Heck, you can get an old Tek
>> sampler, 30 GHz with TDR, for ballpark $600. New color digital scopes
>> cost about a dollar per MHz.
>>
>>> Using things out of spec... all the time?
>>
>> Only when there is a big performance payoff, and parts have been
>> tested enough to estimate the safety margin. The real problem with
>> specs is that one often doesn't get them, especially for RF parts.
>>
>>>
>>> As to that 'security', when one laser hits an other cubesat, the beam is
>>> usualy a bit wider than the receiver's opening,
>>> so part will reflect off, light that area of the usually shiny material
>>> the cube is made off.
>>> Attacker just points a telescope from his own cubesat in space to that
>>> light and listens in.
>>
>> The time of intercept will be seconds. That won't gather enough data
>> to break even modest encryption.
>>
>> It's a lot more secure than spraying RF all over space.
>>
>>
>
>Eavesdropping on optical communications in orbit is doomed by the photon
>statistics. An ideal receiver gets a SNR of N/2B, where N is the photon
>detection rate and B is the bandwidth.
>
>(I expect that the Flying Dutchman has been hanging around SED too much,
>and so has forgotten what SNR is. ) ;)
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

Yeah, optical photons are crunchier than RF photons.

On 2024-01-03 07:43, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Tue, 02 Jan 2024 08:32:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ctd8pilgi7p9tu5vkb3q4hr32j1b08g751@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 06:17:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Jan 2024 08:21:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ddp5pid6em18b40pqoh8ph81mg588h7sqa@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 05:56:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:17:20 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ct43pil1ft3o458ur4p32kmp7l2om7j5t2@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>>>>>> NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NASA is a bloated money burning institution. I know people who are
>>>>>> doing optical satellite comm for a lot less.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? how did they get into space a few million miles away?
>>>>
>>>> The folks that I know are doing LEO cubesats, cube to cube comm.
>>>>
>>>> There are, for some odd reason, two cubesat companies within walking
>>>> distance of my office. Cubeville CA.
>>>
>>> I see you are offending other google using posters..
>>
>> Did my paragraphs above offend you? Why?
>>
>>> Drinking problem?
>>
>> When Mo and I are in a wild mood, we split a beer.
>>
>>> cubesats round the earth at low altitude.
>>
>> Did I mention "LEO" ?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Laser commi-nuka (sorry that was Reagan) communication to space was already used by the French years ago, 2001 ESA:
>>>
>>> https://www.esa.int/Applications/Connectivity_and_Secure_Communications/A_world_first_Data_transmission_between_European_satellites_using_laser_light
>>>
>>> You do not read! the article is about very long distance data transmission with lasers.
>>> It is a NASA project
>>> 700 million is nothing compared to the money burned by the loss making US Military Industrial Complex
>>> payed for by your taxes and even then creating an ever greater US debt and ever more US enemies, killing thousands,
>>> eroding the dollar use (now below 60 percent of world wide used currency).
>>>
>>> And we actually discussed the subject before, you did not know back then that a laser beam diverges.
>>
>> Except that I compared the divergence if a laser with that of a
>> microwave antenna. With numbers.
>>
>>> That was just a few month ago.
>>>
>>> So cool it man!
>>
>> Famous quote: "Don't be a jerk Mervin. Nobody likes jerks."
>
> Well you contribution to the newsgroup are not that good
> showing off 2k dollar giggle hertz scopes may be help sell?
> Using things out of spec... all the time?
>
> As to that 'security', when one laser hits an other cubesat, the beam is usualy a bit wider than the receiver's opening,
> so part will reflect off, light that area of the usually shiny material the cube is made off.
> Attacker just points a telescope from his own cubesat in space to that light and listens in.
> Could even work from earth if skies are clear.
> NOTHING is ever 100% secure,.
> I was thinking just hack Hubble or Webb and have it point at the millions miles (or km if you wish) far away thing..
> hacking those things is likely easy.
>
> I am considering leaving Usenet (many happy now) since when was it? Win 3.1?
> Anybody can visit https://panteltje.online if interested in projects I did.
>
> Too many insults and bull here, like that CERN guy talking about creeps
> A creep is an animal that possible lives in holes underground, like CERN people live in tunnels
> are religious fanatics parroting Albert OneStone's hay is em see squared and think that by shooting Teslas
> at close to light speed they will find out the programming of auto pilot and the inner construction of its chips
> An other silly project looking for the 'god' particle
> a dropping place for mamaticians where they do a divide by zero and lose grab of reality
> then do re-normalization to come up with idiot things like holographic universes and string theory.
> CERN even detected faster than light .. pity they did not know how their own equipment worked.
> The creeps are sucking taxpayer money, keep people stupid,
> use so much energy that the planet heats up incredibly fast and for more then 70 years now? have produced absolutely nothing useful.
> Same as that laser fussion or was it fuzzy project you supply equipment to, and sane as ITER.
> Always things need to be 'just a little bit bigger' and more money is needed.
> Bomb shelters is likely best use of CERN.
> So here my views, others working for the US mil complex never posting anything useful.
> F35 sucks and is a noisy pest.
>
>

I happened to be in NL between Christmas and New year. I should have dropped
by to see you. I'm sure we'd get along.

Jeroen Belleman

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> writes:

>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:

>>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/

>Perhaps NASA should just give the project and the money to SpaceX,
>which already has a working space laser mesh communications system.

Over what distance?

--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 03:33:34 -0000 (UTC), David Lesher
<wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> writes:
>
>>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 05:49:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>
>>>A cat video highlighted a big year for lasers in space
>>>NASA has invested more than $700 million in testing laser communications in space.
>>> https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-cat-video-highlighted-a-big-year-for-lasers-in-space/
>
>>Perhaps NASA should just give the project and the money to SpaceX,
>>which already has a working space laser mesh communications system.
>
>Over what distance?

About 36,000 km (22,000 miles), ground to the LCRD in geosynchronous
orbit. Test bandwidth is 1.244 Gigabits/sec bidirectional. Average
power is 0.5 watts. LCDR was launched on Dec 7, 2021.

"Laser Communications Relay Demonstration (LCRD)"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Communications_Relay_Demonstration>

"Laser Communications Relay Demonstration (LCRD) Overview" (2021)
<https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/stmd/tech-demo-missions-program/laser-communications-relay-demonstration-lcrd-overview/>

"Update on NASA’s Laser Communications Relay Demonstration Project"
(2018)
<https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/pdf/10.2514/6.2018-2395>

"NASA’s Laser Communications Relay: A Year of Experimentation"
<https://www.nasa.gov/missions/tech-demonstration/nasas-laser-communications-relay-a-year-of-experimentation/>
"Located in geosynchronous orbit 22,000 miles above Earth, LCRD is
currently acting as an experiment platform for NASA, other government
agencies, academia, and commercial companies to test laser
communications capabilities."

More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lcrd>

I once found the link budget calculations, but now I can't find them.
Try your luck:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22LCRD%22+link+budget&tbm=isch>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558