On 4/1/2024 8:05 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 20:27:34 -0700, Don Y
> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>>>> Distressing to see "old folks" who just put it in reverse and HOPE
>>>> (it appears many elderly have problems rotating their heads that far)
>>>
>>> It is possible.
>>
>> I suspect it is the case. As I get older, I am more observant of still older
>> folks' physical and mental "conditions". The "don't look backwards while in
>> reverse" syndrome seems to be very real.
>
> It is. I'm in my 70s, and no longer can look over my shoulders, so I
> try to maneuver the car enough to see for instance oncoming traffic
> when entering a highway. My wife also has this problem, but a bit
> less so.

Is this because of accretions on the vertebrae? Stenosis? etc.
I.e., is it "just uncomfortable" or id it mechanically not possible?
(e.g., my elbow was broken, as a child, and a bone spur mechanically
prevents me from touching my shoulder; no pain, it just feels like
you're trying to open a door and something is in the way)

Said another way, can exercise/PT help you regain that motion?
Or, would an orthopedic surgery be required (as in my case)?

> Nor is it possible to see backwards out of modern cars, which have
> become far too aerodynamic, with tiny misplaced rear windows, so we
> depend on those backup cameras. Which can be rendered useless by
> slush or droplets of water on the lens.

We have neither of those problems. SUV (which is the modern day version
of a station wagon) has a full/upright pane of glass at the rear.
Likewise, many folks driving pickups, Yukons, Esplanades, Jeeps, etc.
(she wanted an SUV because all the other cards towered above her little
sedan!)

[Though we did have to remove the headrests from the rear seats
as they stood up too high to interfere with vision]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2024 08:43:37 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:

>On 4/1/2024 8:05 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 20:27:34 -0700, Don Y
>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>>>> Distressing to see "old folks" who just put it in reverse and HOPE
>>>>> (it appears many elderly have problems rotating their heads that far)
>>>>
>>>> It is possible.
>>>
>>> I suspect it is the case. As I get older, I am more observant of still older
>>> folks' physical and mental "conditions". The "don't look backwards while in
>>> reverse" syndrome seems to be very real.
>>
>> It is. I'm in my 70s, and no longer can look over my shoulders, so I
>> try to maneuver the car enough to see for instance oncoming traffic
>> when entering a highway. My wife also has this problem, but a bit
>> less so.
>
>Is this because of accretions on the vertebrae? Stenosis? etc.
>I.e., is it "just uncomfortable" or is it mechanically not possible?
>(e.g., my elbow was broken, as a child, and a bone spur mechanically
>prevents me from touching my shoulder; no pain, it just feels like
>you're trying to open a door and something is in the way)
>
>Said another way, can exercise/PT help you regain that motion?
>Or, would an orthopedic surgery be required (as in my case)?

It doesn't hurt, but it's mechanically impossible. Don't know the
exact cause, but it's quite common.

>> Nor is it possible to see backwards out of modern cars, which have
>> become far too aerodynamic, with tiny misplaced rear windows, so we
>> depend on those backup cameras. Which can be rendered useless by
>> slush or droplets of water on the lens.
>
>We have neither of those problems. SUV (which is the modern day version
>of a station wagon) has a full/upright pane of glass at the rear.
>Likewise, many folks driving pickups, Yukons, Esplanades, Jeeps, etc.
>(she wanted an SUV because all the other cards towered above her little
>sedan!)

My wife and I both got small SUVs for that reason. And cataract
surgery really helped. Still cannot see out the back - tunnel vision,
very deceptive.

I originally drove straight into my down-sloping driveway, and backed
back out. One fine day I almost ran over an elderly neighbor by
backing into him. He could not move fast enough to escape. I saw him
just in time in the side mirror.

Now I back in, and drive out, because I can see far better, in both
directions.

>[Though we did have to remove the headrests from the rear seats
>as they stood up too high to interfere with vision]

I would think that the headrests could be folded down. Ours are
foldable.

Joe Gwinn

On 4/1/2024 2:42 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>> It is. I'm in my 70s, and no longer can look over my shoulders, so I
>>> try to maneuver the car enough to see for instance oncoming traffic
>>> when entering a highway. My wife also has this problem, but a bit
>>> less so.
>>
>> Is this because of accretions on the vertebrae? Stenosis? etc.
>> I.e., is it "just uncomfortable" or is it mechanically not possible?
>> (e.g., my elbow was broken, as a child, and a bone spur mechanically
>> prevents me from touching my shoulder; no pain, it just feels like
>> you're trying to open a door and something is in the way)
>>
>> Said another way, can exercise/PT help you regain that motion?
>> Or, would an orthopedic surgery be required (as in my case)?
>
> It doesn't hurt, but it's mechanically impossible. Don't know the
> exact cause, but it's quite common.

OK, so it is like my elbow. I.e., if I was "heavily sedated" (or DEAD!),
you still couldn't move it the normal range of motion.

I have several "lightning rod" friends (lots of hardware in their necks;
don't stand near them in an electrical storm!) who have very obvious
mechanical constraints.

>>> Nor is it possible to see backwards out of modern cars, which have
>>> become far too aerodynamic, with tiny misplaced rear windows, so we
>>> depend on those backup cameras. Which can be rendered useless by
>>> slush or droplets of water on the lens.
>>
>> We have neither of those problems. SUV (which is the modern day version
>> of a station wagon) has a full/upright pane of glass at the rear.
>> Likewise, many folks driving pickups, Yukons, Esplanades, Jeeps, etc.
>> (she wanted an SUV because all the other cards towered above her little
>> sedan!)
>
> My wife and I both got small SUVs for that reason. And cataract
> surgery really helped. Still cannot see out the back - tunnel vision,
> very deceptive.

Just one place to watch. Most vehicles now have dual side mirrors,
plus the rear view mirror, plus the ability (for some of us? :> )
to turn and look over your shoulder. My eyes continually scan
from one to the next, etc. when backing up.

The camera is disorienting because it severely distorts distances;
everything appears far away even if immediately behind.

The LIDAR adds even more confusion as it will often signal on
something that isn't immediately visible: "What the hell is it
complaining about, now?"

> I originally drove straight into my down-sloping driveway, and backed
> back out. One fine day I almost ran over an elderly neighbor by
> backing into him. He could not move fast enough to escape. I saw him
> just in time in the side mirror.

I've always driven in but SWMBO has always backed in. There is some
"live" annotation on the backup camera's screen that lets her tell
when she has backed in, too far, for the rear hatch to open, without
obstruction. Lots of visibility in my land yacht so I COULD back in
but driving straight in keeps the driver's door away from the side
where her vehicle is parked.

> Now I back in, and drive out, because I can see far better, in both
> directions.
>
>> [Though we did have to remove the headrests from the rear seats
>> as they stood up too high to interfere with vision]
>
> I would think that the headrests could be folded down. Ours are
> foldable.

Hers have a pair of metal posts that insert into holes in the seat
back. So, they can be elevated above the seat back. This is true
of the front seats, as well. But, those aren't in your way when you
look over your shoulder.

From another thread
https://www.baltimoresun.com/2024/03/28/key-bridge-collapse-timeline/

Tugs were used leaving the dock.

There was 4 or 5 minutes from losing power to crash - not enough time to
do much of anything.