This is from an rss feed today.

On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
the field.

Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
photo!

--
Jim Whitby

Of course power tools and alcohol don't mix. Everyone knows power
tools aren't soluble in alcohol...
-- Crazy Nigel
----------------------
Mageia release 9 (Official) for x86_64
6.6.22-server-1.mga9
----------------------

On 3/29/2024 5:04 PM, jim whitby wrote:
> This is from an rss feed today.
>
> On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
> April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
> image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
> image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
> to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
> 1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
> the field.
>
> Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
> photo!

Perhaps the date is singificant?

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
<mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:

>This is from an rss feed today.
>
>On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
>April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
>image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
>to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
>the field.
>
>Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
>photo!

The full photo is ahh ... fuller.

..<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>

And she is famous in image processing. I doubt that the IEEE can
change that.

War story: Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
Sweden, where I had lived and have friends. We were walking through a
park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
many bronze beauties in full glory. My Swedish friend stopped at one
of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends. Nephew was
floored.

So Lena is likely perplexed by the IEEE.

Joe Gwinn

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
> <mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:
>
> >This is from an rss feed today.
> >
> >On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
> >April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
> >image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
> >image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
> >to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
> >1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
> >the field.
> >
> >Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
> >photo!
>
> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>
> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>
> And she is famous in image processing. I doubt that the IEEE can
> change that.
>
> War story: Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
> Sweden, where I had lived and have friends. We were walking through a
> park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
> many bronze beauties in full glory. My Swedish friend stopped at one
> of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
> statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends. Nephew was
> floored.

There is a tendency to forget that beautiful women are just people like
the rest of us. A woman whom I knew as a folk dancer and the mother of
two children once said to me: "If you wonder what I look like naked, go
and see the statue in xxx Town Hall, I was the model for it.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 16:37:09 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

>Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
>> <mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:
>>
>> >This is from an rss feed today.
>> >
>> >On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
>> >April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
>> >image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>> >image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
>> >to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>> >1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
>> >the field.
>> >
>> >Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
>> >photo!
>>
>> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>>
>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>>
>> And she is famous in image processing. I doubt that the IEEE can
>> change that.
>>
>> War story: Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
>> Sweden, where I had lived and have friends. We were walking through a
>> park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
>> many bronze beauties in full glory. My Swedish friend stopped at one
>> of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
>> statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends. Nephew was
>> floored.
>
>There is a tendency to forget that beautiful women are just people like
>the rest of us. A woman whom I knew as a folk dancer and the mother of
>two children once said to me: "If you wonder what I look like naked, go
>and see the statue in xxx Town Hall, I was the model for it.

Yes. Exactly.

Joe Gwinn

On 3/30/24 17:37, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
>> <mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:
>>
>>> This is from an rss feed today.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
>>> April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
>>> image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>>> image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
>>> to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>>> 1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
>>> the field.
>>>
>>> Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
>>> photo!
>>
>> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>>
>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>>
>> And she is famous in image processing. I doubt that the IEEE can
>> change that.
>>
>> War story: Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
>> Sweden, where I had lived and have friends. We were walking through a
>> park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
>> many bronze beauties in full glory. My Swedish friend stopped at one
>> of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
>> statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends. Nephew was
>> floored.
>
> There is a tendency to forget that beautiful women are just people like
> the rest of us. A woman whom I knew as a folk dancer and the mother of
> two children once said to me: "If you wonder what I look like naked, go
> and see the statue in xxx Town Hall, I was the model for it.

There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
is weird and borderline insane.

The problem is that if you've been raised in that environment,
it's almost impossible to change.

Jeroen Belleman

On 3/30/2024 12:15 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
> that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
> is weird and borderline insane.
>
> The problem is that if you've been raised in that environment,
> it's almost impossible to change.

Dunno. I have been accustomed to seeing women disrobing in stores
(without the benefit of a "changing room") to try on clothing ever
since I can recall "shopping". Or, wearing scant little "in public",
let alone at beaches, etc.

Here (SW US), it is not uncommon to encounter women "letting it all
hang out" -- even in professional positions.

So, assuming the *nation* defines the "environment" is a gross
generalization.

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

>>Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
>>photo!
>
> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>
> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>
> And she is famous in image processing. I doubt that the IEEE can
> change that.

for those who have Wikiwand on Firefox:
https://mypmates.club/1972/Miss-November/Lena-Soderberg

--
MRM

On 3/30/2024 3:15 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 3/30/24 17:37, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
>>> <mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is from an rss feed today.
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that,
>>>> after
>>>> April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently
>>>> used
>>>> image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>>>> image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy
>>>> appearance
>>>> to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>>>> 1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel
>>>> unwelcome in
>>>> the field.
>>>>
>>>> Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders)
>>>> female
>>>> photo!
>>>
>>> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>>>
>>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>>>
>>> And she is famous in image processing.  I doubt that the IEEE can
>>> change that.
>>>
>>> War story:  Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
>>> Sweden, where I had lived and have friends.  We were walking through a
>>> park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
>>> many bronze beauties in full glory.  My Swedish friend stopped at one
>>> of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
>>> statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends.  Nephew was
>>> floored.
>>
>> There is a tendency to forget that beautiful women are just people like
>> the rest of us.  A woman whom I knew as a folk dancer and the mother of
>> two children once said to me: "If you wonder what I look like naked, go
>> and see the statue in xxx Town Hall, I was the model for it.
>
> There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
> that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
> is weird and borderline insane.

Not much to do with "attitudes about nudity."

a) Use of the image in this context violated copyright to begin with

b) She asked people to stop using it

c) It has no unique value as a test case for image processing in the
21st century, was used for (dumb) historical reasons only.

> The problem is that if you've been raised in that environment,
> it's almost impossible to change.
>
> Jeroen Belleman

I can't say about Muslim countries, but Americans that well-understand
the concept of "consent" and "bodily autonomy" are fairly rare.

Much more common are citizens that would of course ruthlessly defend
what they figure is "theirs", but figure anyone who isn't them (women
and children induced) is fair game to be touched, prodded, poked,
grabbed, commented on, have their pictures and videos re-posted, and
lives generally pried into until the end of time.

And tend to find the idea that even if consent is given, that it can be
unilaterally revoked at some later time particularly galling.

That is to say I think the reason we don't have many nude beaches here
finally has less to do with some abstract concept of Puritanism (given
how many habitual adulterers we've had as President that seems
laughable), and more to do with that the number of men who'd show up
just to try to grab every boobie in sight, then run home and grab a
handgun and open fire on everyone there if a woman tried to say "no", is
large.

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 20:15:44 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

>On 3/30/24 17:37, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
>>> <mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is from an rss feed today.
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
>>>> April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
>>>> image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>>>> image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
>>>> to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>>>> 1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
>>>> the field.
>>>>
>>>> Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
>>>> photo!
>>>
>>> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>>>
>>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>>>
>>> And she is famous in image processing. I doubt that the IEEE can
>>> change that.
>>>
>>> War story: Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
>>> Sweden, where I had lived and have friends. We were walking through a
>>> park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
>>> many bronze beauties in full glory. My Swedish friend stopped at one
>>> of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
>>> statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends. Nephew was
>>> floored.
>>
>> There is a tendency to forget that beautiful women are just people like
>> the rest of us. A woman whom I knew as a folk dancer and the mother of
>> two children once said to me: "If you wonder what I look like naked, go
>> and see the statue in xxx Town Hall, I was the model for it.
>
>There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
>that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
>is weird and borderline insane.

Not here for sure. We have nude beaches and The Folsom Street Fair.
People used to pay to see naked women but it's not such a novelty now.
What restricts nudity is the climate. And if you go around naked,
where do you keep your phone and your credit cards?

I did once see the entire Ski Patrol come down the hill nude, skiing
in a line, holding hands.

On 3/30/2024 6:06 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/30/2024 12:15 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>> There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
>> that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
>> is weird and borderline insane.
>>
>> The problem is that if you've been raised in that environment,
>> it's almost impossible to change.
>
> Dunno.  I have been accustomed to seeing women disrobing in stores
> (without the benefit of a "changing room") to try on clothing ever
> since I can recall "shopping".  Or, wearing scant little "in public",
> let alone at beaches, etc.
>
> Here (SW US), it is not uncommon to encounter women "letting it all
> hang out" -- even in professional positions.
>
> So, assuming the *nation* defines the "environment" is a gross
> generalization.
>

Not surprised that the practice developed at USC; mixing business and
pleasure is the "California Style" style of engineering, like wearing
ratty T-shirts and cargo shorts to the office, which also likely has
foozball tables, a full bar, 55" video game screen/man cave and
on-demand sushi and strippers, and all that.

Not much hardware design goes on in New England anymore but I'm
definitely more a fan of the "New England"-style of wearing a shirt and
tie to the office and leaving the centerfolds, video games, and
generalized baby bullshit at the door.

On 3/30/2024 8:45 PM, bitrex wrote:
> On 3/30/2024 6:06 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/30/2024 12:15 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>> There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
>>> that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
>>> is weird and borderline insane.
>>>
>>> The problem is that if you've been raised in that environment,
>>> it's almost impossible to change.
>>
>> Dunno.  I have been accustomed to seeing women disrobing in stores
>> (without the benefit of a "changing room") to try on clothing ever
>> since I can recall "shopping".  Or, wearing scant little "in public",
>> let alone at beaches, etc.
>>
>> Here (SW US), it is not uncommon to encounter women "letting it all
>> hang out" -- even in professional positions.
>>
>> So, assuming the *nation* defines the "environment" is a gross
>> generalization.
>
> Not surprised that the practice developed at USC; mixing business and pleasure
> is the "California Style" style of engineering, like wearing ratty T-shirts and
> cargo shorts to the office, which also likely has foozball tables, a full bar,
> 55" video game screen/man cave and on-demand sushi and strippers, and all that.
>
> Not much hardware design goes on in New England anymore but I'm definitely more
> a fan of the "New England"-style of wearing a shirt and tie to the office and
> leaving the centerfolds, video games, and generalized baby bullshit at the door.

Never wore a shit&tie when working in Boston. And, only a few "old folks"
wore ties. Though I did wear a "dress shirt" and not T-shirts. (unless,
of course, I was "away from the office in a capacity where I was representing
the company -- three piece suit, pocket watch, coiffed hair, polished shoes,
etc.)

Don't see how what folks wore had any impact on the quality of their work
or work ethic. Do recall turning down a job offer in the midwest because
the office was quieter than a library and EVERYONE wore shirt&tie. And,
another offer accepted where my boss reminded me, daily, to wear a tie
(and never did for all the years I worked there; "I don't recall it
being stated as a condition of employment or even MENTIONED, for that
matter").

Never had access to TVs, bars, centerfolds or "baby bullshit", video games,
either. (except when working *on* video games) Do recall not wearing jewelry,
belt buckles, etc. -- anything that could lead to injury from electrocution.
(though I never worked in California)

Of course, once I went on my own, I rarely *met* my clients so clothing,
business hours, etc. was never an issue.

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 20:41:47 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 20:15:44 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>
>>On 3/30/24 17:37, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>> Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
>>>> <mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is from an rss feed today.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
>>>>> April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
>>>>> image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>>>>> image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
>>>>> to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>>>>> 1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
>>>>> the field.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
>>>>> photo!
>>>>
>>>> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>>>>
>>>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>>>>
>>>> And she is famous in image processing. I doubt that the IEEE can
>>>> change that.
>>>>
>>>> War story: Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
>>>> Sweden, where I had lived and have friends. We were walking through a
>>>> park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
>>>> many bronze beauties in full glory. My Swedish friend stopped at one
>>>> of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
>>>> statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends. Nephew was
>>>> floored.
>>>
>>> There is a tendency to forget that beautiful women are just people like
>>> the rest of us. A woman whom I knew as a folk dancer and the mother of
>>> two children once said to me: "If you wonder what I look like naked, go
>>> and see the statue in xxx Town Hall, I was the model for it.
>>
>>There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
>>that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
>>is weird and borderline insane.
>
>Not here for sure. We have nude beaches and The Folsom Street Fair.
>People used to pay to see naked women but it's not such a novelty now.
>What restricts nudity is the climate. And if you go around naked,
>where do you keep your phone and your credit cards?
>
>I did once see the entire Ski Patrol come down the hill nude, skiing
>in a line, holding hands.

And practically every tribe on earth has covered their private parts
somehow, even before the missionaries showed up. Modesty is not a
Western or an American invention.

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 23:45:57 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 3/30/2024 6:06 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/30/2024 12:15 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>> There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
>>> that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
>>> is weird and borderline insane.
>>>
>>> The problem is that if you've been raised in that environment,
>>> it's almost impossible to change.
>>
>> Dunno.  I have been accustomed to seeing women disrobing in stores
>> (without the benefit of a "changing room") to try on clothing ever
>> since I can recall "shopping".  Or, wearing scant little "in public",
>> let alone at beaches, etc.
>>
>> Here (SW US), it is not uncommon to encounter women "letting it all
>> hang out" -- even in professional positions.
>>
>> So, assuming the *nation* defines the "environment" is a gross
>> generalization.
>>
>
>Not surprised that the practice developed at USC; mixing business and
>pleasure is the "California Style" style of engineering, like wearing
>ratty T-shirts and cargo shorts to the office, which also likely has
>foozball tables, a full bar, 55" video game screen/man cave and
>on-demand sushi and strippers, and all that.

We do have a break room with a ping-pong table. And a freezer full of
TV dinners. Sadly, no bar. I keep a bottle of Ron Zacapa in my office
for special celebrations.

>
>Not much hardware design goes on in New England anymore but I'm
>definitely more a fan of the "New England"-style of wearing a shirt and
>tie to the office and leaving the centerfolds, video games, and
>generalized baby bullshit at the door.
>
>

Ties are bizarre.

The old HP Journals are fun, with pics of all the engineers in white
shirts and skinny ties.

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 23:27:14 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 3/30/2024 3:15 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>> On 3/30/24 17:37, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>> Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
>>>> <mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is from an rss feed today.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that,
>>>>> after
>>>>> April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently
>>>>> used
>>>>> image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>>>>> image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy
>>>>> appearance
>>>>> to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>>>>> 1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel
>>>>> unwelcome in
>>>>> the field.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders)
>>>>> female
>>>>> photo!
>>>>
>>>> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>>>>
>>>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>>>>
>>>> And she is famous in image processing.  I doubt that the IEEE can
>>>> change that.
>>>>
>>>> War story:  Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
>>>> Sweden, where I had lived and have friends.  We were walking through a
>>>> park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
>>>> many bronze beauties in full glory.  My Swedish friend stopped at one
>>>> of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
>>>> statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends.  Nephew was
>>>> floored.
>>>
>>> There is a tendency to forget that beautiful women are just people like
>>> the rest of us.  A woman whom I knew as a folk dancer and the mother of
>>> two children once said to me: "If you wonder what I look like naked, go
>>> and see the statue in xxx Town Hall, I was the model for it.
>>
>> There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
>> that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
>> is weird and borderline insane.
>
>Not much to do with "attitudes about nudity."
>
>a) Use of the image in this context violated copyright to begin with

The copyright is owned by Playboy Enterprises, who did and does not
object. Lena never owned the copyright.

>b) She asked people to stop using it
>
>c) It has no unique value as a test case for image processing in the
>21st century, was used for (dumb) historical reasons only.

I think that her reason for asking people to stop is quite simple. She
is not at all interested in being a football in a US political fight
which she knows little and cares nothing about.

>> The problem is that if you've been raised in that environment,
>> it's almost impossible to change.
>>
>> Jeroen Belleman
>
>I can't say about Muslim countries, but Americans that well-understand
>the concept of "consent" and "bodily autonomy" are fairly rare.
>
>Much more common are citizens that would of course ruthlessly defend
>what they figure is "theirs", but figure anyone who isn't them (women
>and children induced) is fair game to be touched, prodded, poked,
>grabbed, commented on, have their pictures and videos re-posted, and
>lives generally pried into until the end of time.
>
>And tend to find the idea that even if consent is given, that it can be
>unilaterally revoked at some later time particularly galling.
>
>That is to say I think the reason we don't have many nude beaches here
>finally has less to do with some abstract concept of Puritanism (given
>how many habitual adulterers we've had as President that seems
>laughable), and more to do with that the number of men who'd show up
>just to try to grab every boobie in sight, then run home and grab a
>handgun and open fire on everyone there if a woman tried to say "no", is
>large.

Well, I have another war story:

Decades ago, to took a holiday at the Club Med located on the
Caribbean island of Guadeloupe. I didn't know it, but they had nude
beaches, not for swingers so much as for French tourists (Guadeloupe
being a department of France, their Hawaii).

In the middle of the week, an airplane full of French schoolteachers
and their families arrived. Next day, there they all were, entire
families all baking in the sun, completely naked. Who knew that
French Schoolteachers were such a comely lot.

After three days I stopped looking, my neck having worn out from all
the swiveling.

Joe Gwinn

On 3/31/2024 11:04 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 20:41:47 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 20:15:44 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/30/24 17:37, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>> Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
>>>>> <mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is from an rss feed today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
>>>>>> April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
>>>>>> image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>>>>>> image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
>>>>>> to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>>>>>> 1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
>>>>>> the field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders) female
>>>>>> photo!
>>>>>
>>>>> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>>>>>
>>>>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>>>>>
>>>>> And she is famous in image processing. I doubt that the IEEE can
>>>>> change that.
>>>>>
>>>>> War story: Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
>>>>> Sweden, where I had lived and have friends. We were walking through a
>>>>> park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
>>>>> many bronze beauties in full glory. My Swedish friend stopped at one
>>>>> of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
>>>>> statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends. Nephew was
>>>>> floored.
>>>>
>>>> There is a tendency to forget that beautiful women are just people like
>>>> the rest of us. A woman whom I knew as a folk dancer and the mother of
>>>> two children once said to me: "If you wonder what I look like naked, go
>>>> and see the statue in xxx Town Hall, I was the model for it.
>>>
>>> There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
>>> that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
>>> is weird and borderline insane.
>>
>> Not here for sure. We have nude beaches and The Folsom Street Fair.
>> People used to pay to see naked women but it's not such a novelty now.
>> What restricts nudity is the climate. And if you go around naked,
>> where do you keep your phone and your credit cards?
>>
>> I did once see the entire Ski Patrol come down the hill nude, skiing
>> in a line, holding hands.
>
> And practically every tribe on earth has covered their private parts
> somehow, even before the missionaries showed up. Modesty is not a
> Western or an American invention.
>

Tribes in hot climates do seem to wear significantly less.

There are reasons other than modesty to want to give one's private some
kind of generally more robust shielding, as any tribesman who's taken a
low-hanging branch to the nuts might attest

On 3/31/24 18:22, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 23:27:14 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/30/2024 3:15 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>> On 3/30/24 17:37, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>> Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:04:38 +0100, jim whitby
>>>>> <mr.spock@spockmnail.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is from an rss feed today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that,
>>>>>> after
>>>>>> April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>>>>>> image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy
>>>>>> appearance
>>>>>> to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>>>>>> 1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel
>>>>>> unwelcome in
>>>>>> the field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders)
>>>>>> female
>>>>>> photo!
>>>>>
>>>>> The full photo is ahh ... fuller.
>>>>>
>>>>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Fors%C3%A9n>
>>>>>
>>>>> And she is famous in image processing.  I doubt that the IEEE can
>>>>> change that.
>>>>>
>>>>> War story:  Maybe ten years ago, my wife and I took my 15-yo nephew to
>>>>> Sweden, where I had lived and have friends.  We were walking through a
>>>>> park near Stockholm's City Hall, where the grassy plaza is lined with
>>>>> many bronze beauties in full glory.  My Swedish friend stopped at one
>>>>> of the beauties and commented that the model for that particular
>>>>> statue was the mother of one of his childhood friends.  Nephew was
>>>>> floored.
>>>>
>>>> There is a tendency to forget that beautiful women are just people like
>>>> the rest of us.  A woman whom I knew as a folk dancer and the mother of
>>>> two children once said to me: "If you wonder what I look like naked, go
>>>> and see the statue in xxx Town Hall, I was the model for it.
>>>
>>> There is this attitude, especially in the US and muslim countries,
>>> that nudity is reprehensible, more so than physical violence. This
>>> is weird and borderline insane.
>>
>> Not much to do with "attitudes about nudity."
>>
>> a) Use of the image in this context violated copyright to begin with
>
> The copyright is owned by Playboy Enterprises, who did and does not
> object. Lena never owned the copyright.
>
>
>> b) She asked people to stop using it
>>
>> c) It has no unique value as a test case for image processing in the
>> 21st century, was used for (dumb) historical reasons only.
>
> I think that her reason for asking people to stop is quite simple. She
> is not at all interested in being a football in a US political fight
> which she knows little and cares nothing about.
>
>
>>> The problem is that if you've been raised in that environment,
>>> it's almost impossible to change.
>>>
>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>
>> I can't say about Muslim countries, but Americans that well-understand
>> the concept of "consent" and "bodily autonomy" are fairly rare.
>>
>> Much more common are citizens that would of course ruthlessly defend
>> what they figure is "theirs", but figure anyone who isn't them (women
>> and children induced) is fair game to be touched, prodded, poked,
>> grabbed, commented on, have their pictures and videos re-posted, and
>> lives generally pried into until the end of time.
>>
>> And tend to find the idea that even if consent is given, that it can be
>> unilaterally revoked at some later time particularly galling.
>>
>> That is to say I think the reason we don't have many nude beaches here
>> finally has less to do with some abstract concept of Puritanism (given
>> how many habitual adulterers we've had as President that seems
>> laughable), and more to do with that the number of men who'd show up
>> just to try to grab every boobie in sight, then run home and grab a
>> handgun and open fire on everyone there if a woman tried to say "no", is
>> large.
>
> Well, I have another war story:
>
> Decades ago, to took a holiday at the Club Med located on the
> Caribbean island of Guadeloupe. I didn't know it, but they had nude
> beaches, not for swingers so much as for French tourists (Guadeloupe
> being a department of France, their Hawaii).
>
> In the middle of the week, an airplane full of French schoolteachers
> and their families arrived. Next day, there they all were, entire
> families all baking in the sun, completely naked. [...]

That's the idea. European attitudes to nudity are so much more
relaxed. And you don't grab anyone, just as you wouldn't when
they're dressed.

Jeroen Belleman

On 3/29/24 18:30, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/29/2024 5:04 PM, jim whitby wrote:
>> This is from an rss feed today.
>>
>> On Wednesday, the IEEE Computer Society announced to members that, after
>> April 1, it would no longer accept papers that include a frequently used
>> image of a 1972 Playboy model named Lena Forsén. The so-called "Lenna
>> image," (Forsén added an extra "n" to her name in her Playboy appearance
>> to aid pronunciation) has been used in image processing research since
>> 1973 and has attracted criticism for making some women feel unwelcome in
>> the field.
>>
>> Why? What could possibly be demeaning about a (above the shoulders)
>> female
>> photo!
>
> Perhaps the date is singificant?
>
>
IEEE sense of humor? There must be a committee for that! Or it might
just be an oxymoron.

On 3/31/2024 1:49 PM, wmartin wrote:
>> Perhaps the date is significant?
>
> IEEE sense of humor? There must be a committee for that! Or it might just be an
> oxymoron.

Intelligence isn't contraindicated by humor. Remember the WOM and WORN
from the 70's?

I delight in subtle brain hacks -- wondering which folks will understand
the humor (like my LED Braille Clock or my sundial -- "horizontal" with
perpendicular gnomon that keeps perfect local time... even recognizing DST!).

And, the folks that *do* manage to "get it" invariably *blurt* out a laugh!