https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317

It doesn't look like that one was charging.

Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.

San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.

On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>
> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>
> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>
> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>

As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.

Jeroen Belleman

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 19:03:07 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

>On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>
>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>
>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>
>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>
>
>As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>
>Jeroen Belleman

LiFePo4 appears to be quite a bit safer than the other lithium ion
types. Not quite as desireable as the flammable versions but quite a
bit safer.

boB

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 19:03:07 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

>On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>
>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>
>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>
>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>
>
>As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>
>Jeroen Belleman

This is a great idea:

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/researchers-claim-develop-first-calcium-200000395.html

Weave batteries into clothing.

On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>
>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>
>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>
>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>
> As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
> become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
> both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
> container. It's a recipe for an explosive.

Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.

The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts when
the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they should,
which warms them up a little.

Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery, and
on it's surface.

If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
leading to something that looks like an explosion.

Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn the
user when this were incipient and would start discharging the battery if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.

It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
have a properly designed battery management system, or was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.

All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.

John Larkin doesn't seem to read data-sheets all that carefully, and he
doesn't expect the manufacturers of "electric scooters,surfboards,
wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles" to be any more careful.

Jeroen Belleman is effectively saying that they should be, but hasn't
spelled out the advantage of using more careful design to cope with the
known dangers of using lithium batteries.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

>... if
> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.

What if it didn't?

>..was being looked
> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.

That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they
noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>
>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>
>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>
>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>
>> As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>> become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>> both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>> container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>
> Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
>
> The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts when
> the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they should,
> which warms them up a little.
>
> Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
> self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery, and
> on it's surface.
>
> If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
> higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
> 160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
> leading to something that looks like an explosion.
>
> Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn the
> user when this were incipient and would start discharging the battery if
> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>
> It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
> have a properly designed battery management system, or was being looked
> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>
> All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
> discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.

Or the battery wasn't attended.

Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
charging.

Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>> ... if
>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>
> What if it didn't?

Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing
lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed
dissipator.

>> ..was being looked
>> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>
> That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they
> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.

A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say
is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a
way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>
>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>
>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>>
>>> As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>>> become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>>> both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>>> container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>>
>> Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
>>
>> The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
>> when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
>> should, which warms them up a little.
>>
>> Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
>> self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery, and
>> on it's surface.
>>
>> If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
>> higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
>> 160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
>> leading to something that looks like an explosion.
>>
>> Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
>> the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
>> battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>>
>> It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
>> have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
>> looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>>
>> All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
>> discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
>
> Or the battery wasn't attended.

Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.

> Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
> charging.

A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
that had got close to going into thermal runaway

> Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
> wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires.

A slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any sensible
region.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 09:55:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

>Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>>... if
>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>
>What if it didn't?

And what if cheap Chinese batteries weren't all designed by geniuses
like Sloman?

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:16:40 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>
>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>
>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>>
>>> As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>>> become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>>> both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>>> container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>>
>> Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
>>
>> The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts when
>> the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they should,
>> which warms them up a little.
>>
>> Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
>> self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery, and
>> on it's surface.
>>
>> If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
>> higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
>> 160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
>> leading to something that looks like an explosion.
>>
>> Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn the
>> user when this were incipient and would start discharging the battery if
>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>>
>> It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
>> have a properly designed battery management system, or was being looked
>> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>>
>> All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
>> discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
>
>Or the battery wasn't attended.
>
>Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
>charging.

Or just parked somewhere, not charging. I wonder how long it takes a
tiny separator defect to spread into an explosive meltdown. Some
references suggest seconds.

On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
> On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>>
>>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>>>
>>>> As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>>>> become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>>>> both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>>>> container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>>>
>>> Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
>>>
>>> The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
>>> when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
>>> should, which warms them up a little.
>>>
>>> Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
>>> self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery,
>>> and on it's surface.
>>>
>>> If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
>>> higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
>>> 160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
>>> leading to something that looks like an explosion.
>>>
>>> Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
>>> the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
>>> battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>>>
>>> It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
>>> have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
>>> looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>>>
>>> All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
>>> discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
>>
>> Or the battery wasn't attended.
>
> Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.
>
>> Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
>> charging.
>
> A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
> that had got close to going into thermal runaway
>
>> Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
>> wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires.
>
> A slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
> sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
> be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
> sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any sensible
> region.
>

The US is the kind of place that will instate outright bans on e bikes,
vape sticks, and books with gay people in them, but in most states it's
perfectly legal to buy crates of fireworks at at time with way more
explosive power than that, on the honor system. Kaboom!

And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.

On 4/12/2024 4:55 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>> ... if
>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>
> What if it didn't?
>
>
>> ..was being looked
>> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>
> That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they
> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
>
>

It's wild that stuff like that make the national news in the UK.

In the US if I had to pick between the hazard of exploding bikes and
overpenetration I guess it would be a toss up. Glad I wasn't being
treated in the next room for my e-bike injury:

<https://youtu.be/U6LYQtkKOgs?si=8a6AInyxecaULw7V&t=77>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>>>>
>>>>> As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>>>>> become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>>>>> both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>>>>> container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>>>>
>>>> Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
>>>>
>>>> The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
>>>> when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
>>>> should, which warms them up a little.
>>>>
>>>> Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
>>>> self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery,
>>>> and on it's surface.
>>>>
>>>> If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
>>>> higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
>>>> 160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
>>>> leading to something that looks like an explosion.
>>>>
>>>> Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
>>>> the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
>>>> battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>>>>
>>>> It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
>>>> have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
>>>> looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>>>>
>>>> All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
>>>> discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
>>>
>>> Or the battery wasn't attended.
>>
>> Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.
>>
>>> Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
>>> charging.
>>
>> A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
>> that had got close to going into thermal runaway
>>
>>> Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
>>> wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires.
>>
>> A slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
>> sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
>> be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
>> sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any sensible
>> region.
>>
>
>
>The US is the kind of place that will instate outright bans on e bikes,
>vape sticks, and books with gay people in them, but in most states it's
>perfectly legal to buy crates of fireworks at at time with way more
>explosive power than that, on the honor system. Kaboom!
>
>And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
>guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
>by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
>chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.

About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.

There were 617 homicides in Chicago last year. I suspect few were
attacks by strangers.

NYC alone had 18 lithium battery fire deaths last year, something like
2 PPM, and that number seems to be trending up.

On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.

As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on what
people can sell on these platforms)

....
>> And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
>> by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
>> chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.
>
> About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
> population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
> law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
> guns or knives.

Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually is
just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.

Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.

John :-#)#

On 4/12/2024 1:07 PM, John Robertson wrote:
> On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>> On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric
>>>>>>>> scooters,
>>>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>
> As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on what
> people can sell on these platforms)
>
> ...
>>> And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
>>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
>>> by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
>>> chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or
>>> higher.
>>
>> About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
>> population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
>> law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
>> guns or knives.
>
> Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually is
> just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
> 40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
>
> Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
>
> John :-#)#

Traffic accidents kill about 50k Americans per year, firearms in the
same ballpark, and Covid is still dropping 500-1k per day.

These fashions of death have been re-categorized as "acts of God" in the
public consciousness.

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

> On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> > Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >
> >> ... if
> >> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
> >
> > What if it didn't?
>
> Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing
> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed
> dissipator.
>
> >> ..was being looked
> >> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
> >
> > That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they
> > noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
>
> A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say
> is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
> bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a
> way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.

It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model
has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you
can get out of the way".

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 13/04/2024 12:17 am, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 09:55:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
>
>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>>> ... if
>>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>>
>> What if it didn't?
>
> And what if cheap Chinese batteries weren't all designed by geniuses
> like Sloman?

It doesn't take genius to design a decent battery monitoring system, and
manufacturers who sell dangerous products get sued, and banned from
selling into markets with even minimal consumer protection legislation.
Even the US finally banned tetra-ethyl lead as a gasoline additive.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 13/04/2024 2:52 am, john larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>>>>>> become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>>>>>> both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>>>>>> container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
>>>>> when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
>>>>> should, which warms them up a little.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
>>>>> self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery,
>>>>> and on it's surface.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
>>>>> higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
>>>>> 160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
>>>>> leading to something that looks like an explosion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
>>>>> the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
>>>>> battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>>>>>
>>>>> It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
>>>>> have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
>>>>> looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>>>>>
>>>>> All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
>>>>> discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
>>>>
>>>> Or the battery wasn't attended.
>>>
>>> Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.
>>>
>>>> Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
>>>> charging.
>>>
>>> A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
>>> that had got close to going into thermal runaway
>>>
>>>> Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
>>>> wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires.
>>>
>>> A slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
>>> sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
>>> be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
>>> sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any sensible
>>> region.
>>
>> The US is the kind of place that will instate outright bans on e bikes,
>> vape sticks, and books with gay people in them, but in most states it's
>> perfectly legal to buy crates of fireworks at at time with way more
>> explosive power than that, on the honor system. Kaboom!
>>
>> And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
>> by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
>> chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.
>
> About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
> population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
> law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
> guns or knives.
>
> There were 617 homicides in Chicago last year. I suspect few were
> attacks by strangers.
>
> NYC alone had 18 lithium battery fire deaths last year, something like
> 2 PPM, and that number seems to be trending up.

If US legislators could understand statistics they'd have introduced
sensible gun control years ago. Finding a form of words that the US
Supreme Court wouldn't object to might have been difficult.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 13/04/2024 12:21 am, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:16:40 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>>
>>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>>>
>>>> As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>>>> become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>>>> both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>>>> container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>>>
>>> Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
>>>
>>> The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts when
>>> the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they should,
>>> which warms them up a little.
>>>
>>> Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
>>> self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery, and
>>> on it's surface.
>>>
>>> If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
>>> higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
>>> 160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
>>> leading to something that looks like an explosion.
>>>
>>> Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn the
>>> user when this were incipient and would start discharging the battery if
>>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>>>
>>> It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
>>> have a properly designed battery management system, or was being looked
>>> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>>>
>>> All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
>>> discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
>>
>> Or the battery wasn't attended.
>>
>> Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
>> charging.
>
> Or just parked somewhere, not charging. I wonder how long it takes a
> tiny separator defect to spread into an explosive meltdown. Some
> references suggest seconds.

And who thinks that separator defects lead to thermal run-away and
battery ignition?

John Larkin does pick up on other people's silly ideas, and has a few of
his own - not all that many or he'd have got himself a patent or two.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 2024/04/12 10:26 a.m., bitrex wrote:
> On 4/12/2024 1:07 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>> On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric
>>>>>>>>> scooters,
>>>>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>
>> As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on
>> what people can sell on these platforms)
>>
>> ...
>>>> And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
>>>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
>>>> by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
>>>> chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or
>>>> higher.
>>>
>>> About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
>>> population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
>>> law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
>>> guns or knives.
>>
>> Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually
>> is just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
>> 40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
>>
>> Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
>>
>> John :-#)#
>
> Traffic accidents kill about 50k Americans per year, firearms in the
> same ballpark, and Covid is still dropping 500-1k per day.

US death rate from Covid is around 30/day - not 500 or more! Which is
now about the same as Canada.

Deaths per 100,000 from Covid in Canada was about 1/2 the rate of the
US. Most of those higher rates of death occurred under the previous US
administration.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

John

>
> These fashions of death have been re-categorized as "acts of God" in the
> public consciousness.
>
>

On 13/04/2024 3:39 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>> On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... if
>>>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>>>
>>> What if it didn't?
>>
>> Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing
>> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed
>> dissipator.
>>
>>>> ..was being looked
>>>> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>>>
>>> That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they
>>> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
>>
>> A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say
>> is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
>> bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a
>> way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
>
> It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model
> has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you
> can get out of the way".

You don't seem to have been paying attention. If you deal with the
warning by discharging the battery, and making it safe, it won't explode.

No stored energy means no dramatic heating, no breaking of the seals
that protect the contents of the battery from atmospheric oxygen, and no
explosion or fire.

Yo do have to get rid of the battery and presumably replace it, but that
was implicit in the original purchase. They aren't sold on the basis
that they are going to last forever.,

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

> On 13/04/2024 3:39 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> > Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> >>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ... if
> >>>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
> >>>
> >>> What if it didn't?
> >>
> >> Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing
> >> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed
> >> dissipator.
> >>
> >>>> ..was being looked
> >>>> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
> >>>
> >>> That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they
> >>> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
> >>
> >> A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say
> >> is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
> >> bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a
> >> way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
> >
> > It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model
> > has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you
> > can get out of the way".
>
> You don't seem to have been paying attention. If you deal with the
> warning by discharging the battery, and making it safe, it won't explode.

Who it the 'you' in that sentence? Do you mean the average user, in
which case this is a hopeless scenario as most users of batteries
wouldn't have a clue.

Until recently batteries have been inherently safe: unless you did
something stupid they were unlikely to give any trouble. You are now
supporting a type of battery that is inherently unsafe and will catch
fire or explode unless the user takes some positive action. Even if the
user delegates this action to an automated system there is no guarantee
that the action will be taken every time it is needed.

'Safety' that depends on taking a positive action to prevent a disaster
is not safe at all.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:14:07 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

>Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>> On 13/04/2024 3:39 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> > Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> >>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> ... if
>> >>>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>> >>>
>> >>> What if it didn't?
>> >>
>> >> Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing
>> >> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed
>> >> dissipator.
>> >>
>> >>>> ..was being looked
>> >>>> after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>> >>>
>> >>> That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they
>> >>> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
>> >>
>> >> A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say
>> >> is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
>> >> bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a
>> >> way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
>> >
>> > It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model
>> > has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you
>> > can get out of the way".
>>
>> You don't seem to have been paying attention. If you deal with the
>> warning by discharging the battery, and making it safe, it won't explode.
>
>
>Who it the 'you' in that sentence? Do you mean the average user, in
>which case this is a hopeless scenario as most users of batteries
>wouldn't have a clue.
>
>Until recently batteries have been inherently safe: unless you did
>something stupid they were unlikely to give any trouble. You are now
>supporting a type of battery that is inherently unsafe and will catch
>fire or explode unless the user takes some positive action. Even if the
>user delegates this action to an automated system there is no guarantee
>that the action will be taken every time it is needed.
>
>'Safety' that depends on taking a positive action to prevent a disaster
>is not safe at all.

References say that a tiny separator defect spreads radially at
centimeters per second. Any somehow-sensed defect will explode in
flames in well under a minute, from the bad cell into the whole pack.
See Youtube examples... smoke to explosion in seconds.

If I heard an alarm from a lithium battery pack, I wouldn't try to fix
it, I'd run in the opposite direction. What automated system could
discharge an 80 KWH battery pack in a few seconds? Or even 1 KWH?

And a defect sensor would have to constantly snoop every cell of a
pack. A typical Tesla might have 7000 cells.

On 2024-04-12 16:04, Bill Sloman wrote:
> On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>> On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't look like that one was charging.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
>>>>>
>>>>> San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
>>>>
>>>> As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
>>>> become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
>>>> both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
>>>> container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
>>>
>>> Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
>>>
>>> The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
>>> when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
>>> should, which warms them up a little.
>>>
>>> Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
>>> self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery,
>>> and on it's surface.
>>>
>>> If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
>>> higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
>>> 160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
>>> leading to something that looks like an explosion.
>>>
>>> Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
>>> the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
>>> battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
>>>
>>> It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
>>> have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
>>> looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
>>>
>>> All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
>>> discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
>>
>> Or the battery wasn't attended.
>
> Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.
>
>> Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
>> charging.
>
> A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
> that had got close to going into thermal runaway
>
>> Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
>> wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires.
>
> A slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
> sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
> be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
> sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any sensible
> region.

It is the only thing they can do until the manufacturers create machines
that do not catch fire putting the entire metro line out of service. It
is not the city transport business or job to mandate what others should
do, or what other regulators do to regulate proper battery building.
They simply have to protect themselves and their users.

(Oh, no guns around here.)

And yes, of course it is a pain. The combination of a personal transport
device and public transportation was working wonderfully for many. You
get from home to the station with your wheelie in minutes, cross the
city in minutes underground, arrive at job place in minutes from the
station using the wheelie again.

--
Cheers, Carlos.