Am 08.11.2023 um 05:38 schrieb Rich:
> Whether it's a huge benefit remains to be seen.
>
> https://petapixel.com/2023/11/07/sony-announces-a9-iii-worlds-first-global-sensor-full-frame-camera/

Now you have to carry along with the camera a 13.2 Kg flash:
https://profoto.com/de/pro-10

Needed for sufficient light at 1/80000s
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2023-11-08 12:55, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 08.11.2023 um 05:38 schrieb Rich:
>> Whether it's a huge benefit remains to be seen.
>>
>> https://petapixel.com/2023/11/07/sony-announces-a9-iii-worlds-first-global-sensor-full-frame-camera/
>
> Now you have to carry along with the camera a 13.2 Kg flash:
> https://profoto.com/de/pro-10
>
> Needed for sufficient light at 1/80000s

Not needed for most.

Am 11.11.2023 um 17:55 schrieb Alan Browne-:
> On 2023-11-08 12:55, Alfred Molon wrote:
>> Am 08.11.2023 um 05:38 schrieb Rich:
>>> Whether it's a huge benefit remains to be seen.
>>>
>>> https://petapixel.com/2023/11/07/sony-announces-a9-iii-worlds-first-global-sensor-full-frame-camera/
>>
>> Now you have to carry along with the camera a 13.2 Kg flash:
>> https://profoto.com/de/pro-10
>>
>> Needed for sufficient light at 1/80000s
>
> Not needed for most.

Well... it's a welcome development. Hopefully this technology trickles
through to all new sensors.

Other, major forward steps would be
1. complete RGB information in every pixel, and
2. substantially increased dynamic range (by having a separate, much
larger well for collecting the electrons for each pixel).
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2023-11-11 16:48, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 11.11.2023 um 17:55 schrieb Alan Browne-:
>> On 2023-11-08 12:55, Alfred Molon wrote:
>>> Am 08.11.2023 um 05:38 schrieb Rich:
>>>> Whether it's a huge benefit remains to be seen.
>>>>
>>>> https://petapixel.com/2023/11/07/sony-announces-a9-iii-worlds-first-global-sensor-full-frame-camera/
>>>
>>> Now you have to carry along with the camera a 13.2 Kg flash:
>>> https://profoto.com/de/pro-10
>>>
>>> Needed for sufficient light at 1/80000s
>>
>> Not needed for most.
>
> Well... it's a welcome development. Hopefully this technology trickles
> through to all new sensors.

To be clear I meant that extreme shutter speeds (or ISO) is not needed
in most cases. The universal shutter is a fine thing, however.

> Other, major forward steps would be
> 1. complete RGB information in every pixel, and

Compromise that has not been successful in cameras in the past. Foveon
/ Sigma.

> 2. substantially increased dynamic range (by having a separate, much
> larger well for collecting the electrons for each pixel).

1 stop of DR = doubling the "well" capacity. Don't hold your breath.

On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 04:15:26 UTC, Rich wrote:
> On Wednesday, 8 November 2023 at 12:55:25 UTC-5, Alfred Molon wrote:
> > Am 08.11.2023 um 05:38 schrieb Rich:
> > > Whether it's a huge benefit remains to be seen.
> > >
> > > https://petapixel.com/2023/11/07/sony-announces-a9-iii-worlds-first-global-sensor-full-frame-camera/
> > Now you have to carry along with the camera a 13.2 Kg flash:
> > https://profoto.com/de/pro-10
> >
> > Needed for sufficient light at 1/80000s
> > --
> > Alfred Molon
> >
> > Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
> > https://groups.io/g/myolympus
> > https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
> High speed photography is like extreme macro photography. There are few subjects you can shoot that will even be identifiable to the average person.

Yes, it''s not very useful for the majority of photographers, but for science and engineers it's important.

Although I wouldn't mind having Euclid's sensor of 600MP in my smartphone with global shutter ability too . Maybe one day.
Just think of the pictures I could take of my sleeping cat :-D

Am 12.11.2023 um 22:30 schrieb Alan Browne-:

>> Other, major forward steps would be
>> 1. complete RGB information in every pixel, and
>
> Compromise that has not been successful in cameras in the past.  Foveon
> / Sigma.

There may be other ways of doing it.
And in any case, if all photons of every colour can be collected at
every pixel, that is also a welcome improvement.
One more thing, they might collect also infrared and ultraviolet
photons. I could imagine that this data could be used to improve image
processing and ultimately image quality.

>> 2. substantially increased dynamic range (by having a separate, much
>> larger well for collecting the electrons for each pixel).
>
> 1 stop of DR = doubling the "well" capacity.  Don't hold your breath.

I meant something like 50 times the well capacity, just to make an
example. Could perhaps be achieved with vertical capacitors at each pixel.
Or a different approach perhaps. Empty the well once it's full and count
the times you have emptied the well during the exposure (+ the charge
level of the last (not-full) well charge).
Or again something else, like reading each pixel 10 or 100 times during
the exposure time. It's just a matter of being a bit creative.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2023-11-13 12:59, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 12.11.2023 um 22:30 schrieb Alan Browne-:
>
>>> Other, major forward steps would be
>>> 1. complete RGB information in every pixel, and
>>
>> Compromise that has not been successful in cameras in the past.
>> Foveon / Sigma.
>
> There may be other ways of doing it.
> And in any case, if all photons of every colour can be collected at
> every pixel, that is also a welcome improvement.

Since each pixel location is either filtered for one colour (most cases)
or has filters at different depths (foveon) that's what you get.

> One more thing, they might collect also infrared and ultraviolet
> photons. I could imagine that this data could be used to improve image
> processing and ultimately image quality.
>
>>> 2. substantially increased dynamic range (by having a separate, much
>>> larger well for collecting the electrons for each pixel).
>>
>> 1 stop of DR = doubling the "well" capacity.  Don't hold your breath.
>
> I meant something like 50 times the well capacity, just to make an

Not much into the physics of it?

> example. Could perhaps be achieved with vertical capacitors at each pixel.
> Or a different approach perhaps. Empty the well once it's full and count
> the times you have emptied the well during the exposure (+ the charge
> level of the last (not-full) well charge).
> Or again something else, like reading each pixel 10 or 100 times during
> the exposure time. It's just a matter of being a bit creative.

The latter would essentially be image stacking and subject to camera
vibration, movement during the multiple exposures.

Am 14.11.2023 um 21:35 schrieb Alan Browne-:

> Since each pixel location is either filtered for one colour (most cases)
> or has filters at different depths (foveon) that's what you get.

Foveon is just one implementation, not necessarily the best one.

>> I meant something like 50 times the well capacity, just to make an
>
> Not much into the physics of it?

If the capacitor is 50 times larger, you get 50 times the well capacity.

> The latter would essentially be image stacking and subject to camera
> vibration, movement during the multiple exposures.

No, if the total exposure time stays the same (e.g. 1/200 s).
You just empty the well, as soon as it's full and keep track of how many
times you emptied the well. Obviously it requires a very fast switch at
each pixel.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2023-11-15 13:10, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 14.11.2023 um 21:35 schrieb Alan Browne-:
>
>> Since each pixel location is either filtered for one colour (most
>> cases) or has filters at different depths (foveon) that's what you get.
>
> Foveon is just one implementation, not necessarily the best one.
>
>>> I meant something like 50 times the well capacity, just to make an
>>
>> Not much into the physics of it?
>
> If the capacitor is 50 times larger, you get 50 times the well capacity.

Regretfully capacitor capacity is roughly proportional to its volume.
(And I'm not sure that the sensor wells can be compared so easily to a
simple capacitor in the first place).

>> The latter would essentially be image stacking and subject to camera
>> vibration, movement during the multiple exposures.
>
> No, if the total exposure time stays the same (e.g. 1/200 s).
> You just empty the well, as soon as it's full and keep track of how many
> times you emptied the well. Obviously it requires a very fast switch at
> each pixel.

How do you know when it is full? I don't believe you can leave it open
to fill and know its state at the same time. (I could be wrong).

IAC since it is so easy to do. You will die very rich when you get this
going.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Am 17.11.2023 um 21:11 schrieb Alan Browne:
>> If the capacitor is 50 times larger, you get 50 times the well capacity.
>
> Regretfully capacitor capacity is roughly proportional to its volume.
> (And I'm not sure that the sensor wells can be compared so easily to a
> simple capacitor in the first place).

I was thinking to let the pixel capacitor grow vertically (the deeper it
is, the larger the capacity).

>> No, if the total exposure time stays the same (e.g. 1/200 s).
>> You just empty the well, as soon as it's full and keep track of how
>> many times you emptied the well. Obviously it requires a very fast
>> switch at each pixel.
>
> How do you know when it is full?  I don't believe you can leave it open
> to fill and know its state at the same time.  (I could be wrong).

Some (analog) electronics which triggers the capacitor discharge when a
certain voltage is reached. Not sure however how precisely this
discharge trigger would operate, and in fact this is just an idea which
might not work in practice.
But I just want to highlight that there may still be ways to
significantly improve the performance. I doubt we have already hit the
performance limit.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2023-11-18 06:46, Alfred Molon wrote:

> But I just want to highlight that there may still be ways to
> significantly improve the performance. I doubt we have already hit the
> performance limit.

Not at a performance limit, but limited in how fast the technology can
be improved.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.