On 2024-01-17 19:28, Rich wrote:
> Part due to Korea-China dispute and China hindering sales there and also Samsung's folding phones are probably flops or near flops.

China is also pushing the Chinese people to abandon Apple in favour of
Chinese brands to Apple's detriment. This is in retaliation to US
policy statements about China and many Western countries banning Huawei.

Apple, in the meantime, is moving production out of China (slowly).

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Am 18.01.2024 um 14:25 schrieb Alan Browne:
> China is also pushing the Chinese people to abandon Apple in favour of
> Chinese brands

How would they be doing that?
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2024-01-18 12:29, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 18.01.2024 um 14:25 schrieb Alan Browne:
>> China is also pushing the Chinese people to abandon Apple in favour of
>> Chinese brands
>
> How would they be doing that?

They openly urge people to buy Chinese made smartphones despite Apple
having established massive production in China (via their supply chain
there). Should at least have a veneer of neutrality.

They also Ban government workers from suing iPhone for government work.
(Retaliation against US and other western co. bans on Huawei).

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 19/01/2024 7:31 am, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2024-01-18 12:29, Alfred Molon wrote:
>> Am 18.01.2024 um 14:25 schrieb Alan Browne:
>>> China is also pushing the Chinese people to abandon Apple in favour
>>> of Chinese brands
>>
>> How would they be doing that?
>
> They openly urge people to buy Chinese made smartphones despite Apple
> having established massive production in China (via their supply chain
> there).  Should at least have a veneer of neutrality.
>
> They also Ban government workers from suing iPhone for government work.
> (Retaliation against US and other western co. bans on Huawei).
>

I would guess that would be every bit as justifiable as the 'other way
around' is.

geoff

Am 18.01.2024 um 19:31 schrieb Alan Browne:
> They openly urge people to buy Chinese made smartphones despite Apple
> having established massive production in China

Never heard that, and I follow Chinese news and have been there recently.
There has been a wave of popular support / national pride when Huawei
brought out the phone with the 7nm chip, but no Chinese government
official told people they should stop buying Apple phones.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2024-01-18 17:14, geoff wrote:
> On 19/01/2024 7:31 am, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2024-01-18 12:29, Alfred Molon wrote:
>>> Am 18.01.2024 um 14:25 schrieb Alan Browne:
>>>> China is also pushing the Chinese people to abandon Apple in favour
>>>> of Chinese brands
>>>
>>> How would they be doing that?
>>
>> They openly urge people to buy Chinese made smartphones despite Apple
>> having established massive production in China (via their supply chain
>> there).  Should at least have a veneer of neutrality.
>>
>> They also Ban government workers from suing iPhone for government
>> work. (Retaliation against US and other western co. bans on Huawei).
>>
>
> I would guess that would be every bit as justifiable as the 'other way
> around' is.

Other than they overtly welcome Apple as both manufacturer and retailer,
but shoot them in the back at the same time.

Doesn't matter - peak China is behind us (and them). They're now in for
40+ years of economic decline.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2024-01-18 18:27, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 18.01.2024 um 19:31 schrieb Alan Browne:
>> They openly urge people to buy Chinese made smartphones despite Apple
>> having established massive production in China
>
> Never heard that, and I follow Chinese news and have been there recently.
> There has been a wave of popular support / national pride when Huawei
> brought out the phone with the 7nm chip, but no Chinese government
> official told people they should stop buying Apple phones.

Sure - I'm sure you have the pulse of the Chinese down to the beats...

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Am 19.01.2024 um 16:14 schrieb Alan Browne:

> Doesn't matter - peak China is behind us (and them). They're now in for
> 40+ years of economic decline.

You should travel to China and have a look at the country. Would open
your eyes. 300km/h trains everywhere, just to make a small example.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2024-01-19 12:24, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 19.01.2024 um 16:14 schrieb Alan Browne:
>
>> Doesn't matter - peak China is behind us (and them). They're now in
>> for 40+ years of economic decline.
>
> You should travel to China and have a look at the country. Would open
> your eyes. 300km/h trains everywhere, just to make a small example.

ROFL. While I haven't been to China, I've been to most of SE
Asia+Taiwan, S.Korea and Japan; and wide swaths of the rest of the
marble. Multiple times all around.

These lovely trains you talk about are so expensive to ride that most
Chinese cannot afford to use them. This has indebted the government
(directly and via loans/loan guarantees) to the better part of $1T and
there is not enough revenue to cover the operating costs, never mind
interest - as to capital - say goodbye to it.

While the Chinese are definitely capable people (esp. after stealing so
much technology from the west), the government is deplorable from many
standpoints from human rights to their blatant territory grabs in the
South China Sea. Too many things to mention.

Xi is a smart dictator (unlike Putin and what Trump wants to be) - but
there are limits to how far he can take China with its past peak
economy. That one-child policy of yore has come to bite them in the
butt big time...

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Am 20.01.2024 um 00:00 schrieb Alan Browne:

> These lovely trains you talk about are so expensive to ride that most
> Chinese cannot afford to use them.

Oh really. Then why are they often sold out? And when not sold out, they
are quite full.

They are much cheaper than trains here in Germany, but are much faster
and punctual.

> This has indebted the government
> (directly and via loans/loan guarantees) to the better part of $1T and
> there is not enough revenue to cover the operating costs, never mind
> interest - as to capital - say goodbye to it.

Wow, you really are a China expert.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2024-01-19 18:49, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 20.01.2024 um 00:00 schrieb Alan Browne:
>
>> These lovely trains you talk about are so expensive to ride that most
>> Chinese cannot afford to use them.
>
> Oh really. Then why are they often sold out? And when not sold out, they
> are quite full.

Not per my sources. Perhaps in the east they do better, but network
wide is another issue.

>
> They are much cheaper than trains here in Germany, but are much faster
> and punctual.

I used to ride ICE before and after the big crash. Never had
punctuality issues with trains in Germany. The UK is another issue.

Though the only "to the second" performance I ever experienced
consistently was in Japan.

>
>> This has indebted the government (directly and via loans/loan
>> guarantees) to the better part of $1T and there is not enough revenue
>> to cover the operating costs, never mind interest - as to capital -
>> say goodbye to it.
>
> Wow, you really are a China expert.

Not at all, but I certainly have my resources. And what I write above
is the tip of the iceberg in terms of China's economic issues.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 20.01.2024 06:06, Rich wrote:

> Chinese should stop with the criminal attempts at espionage on American and European civilians.

China doesn't need to do any espionage in Europe. It is
sufficient to do it in the USA, there they will get more
data from Europe than they would be able to collect themself.
USA does a perfect job in espionage in Europe, even supported
by some European countries. You don't have to worry about
"enemies" like China or Russia if you have a "friend" like
the USA.

Am 20.01.2024 um 01:01 schrieb Alan Browne:
> On 2024-01-19 18:49, Alfred Molon wrote:
>> Am 20.01.2024 um 00:00 schrieb Alan Browne:
>>
>>> These lovely trains you talk about are so expensive to ride that most
>>> Chinese cannot afford to use them.
>>
>> Oh really. Then why are they often sold out? And when not sold out,
>> they are quite full.
>
> Not per my sources.  Perhaps in the east they do better, but network
> wide is another issue.

Your "sources" are a joke. I have been there and used these trains, less
than 2 months ago. These trains are outstanding, and they are going to
launch a new generation which will travel at 400 km/h.

If you don't believe me, check in the TripAdvisor China forum and ask
people who have actually been there:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowForum-g294211-i642-China.html

You can check the prices of the train tickets on trip.com.

>> They are much cheaper than trains here in Germany, but are much faster
>> and punctual.
>
> I used to ride ICE before and after the big crash.  Never had
> punctuality issues with trains in Germany.

I suggest you come back and have a look now. The situation with German
railways is quite bad now.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

Am 20.01.2024 um 06:06 schrieb Rich:
> Chinese should stop with the criminal attempts at espionage on American and European civilians.

Wow - and US and other countries do not spy on China...?

Most likely everybody spies on everybody.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

On 2024-01-20 04:58, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 20.01.2024 um 01:01 schrieb Alan Browne:
>> On 2024-01-19 18:49, Alfred Molon wrote:
>>> Am 20.01.2024 um 00:00 schrieb Alan Browne:
>>>
>>>> These lovely trains you talk about are so expensive to ride that
>>>> most Chinese cannot afford to use them.
>>>
>>> Oh really. Then why are they often sold out? And when not sold out,
>>> they are quite full.
>>
>> Not per my sources.  Perhaps in the east they do better, but network
>> wide is another issue.
>
> Your "sources" are a joke. I have been there and used these trains, less
> than 2 months ago. These trains are outstanding, and they are going to
> launch a new generation which will travel at 400 km/h.
>
> If you don't believe me, check in the TripAdvisor China forum and ask
> people who have actually been there:
> https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowForum-g294211-i642-China.html
>
> You can check the prices of the train tickets on trip.com.

Don't need to go to listen to industry experts tell me what is really
happening at full scale.

Your experience was a small sample of some area over a small period of
time. Probably on some lines that are well used and profitable and not
seeing lines that are largely unused for most of the year.

>>> They are much cheaper than trains here in Germany, but are much
>>> faster and punctual.
>>
>> I used to ride ICE before and after the big crash.  Never had
>> punctuality issues with trains in Germany.
>
> I suggest you come back and have a look now. The situation with German
> railways is quite bad now.

May do so in the fall.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Am 20.01.2024 um 20:10 schrieb Rich:
> On Saturday 20 January 2024 at 03:19:47 UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
>> On 20.01.2024 06:06, Rich wrote:
>>
>>> Chinese should stop with the criminal attempts at espionage on American and European civilians.
>> China doesn't need to do any espionage in Europe. It is
>> sufficient to do it in the USA, there they will get more
>> data from Europe than they would be able to collect themself.
>> USA does a perfect job in espionage in Europe, even supported
>> by some European countries. You don't have to worry about
>> "enemies" like China or Russia if you have a "friend" like
>> the USA.
>
> Except it's a European company that has by far the most sophisticated semiconductor manufacturing devices and the Chinese are DYING to get hold of that.

It's just a matter of time until China have their own ASML.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site