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tech / sci.math / Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?

SubjectAuthor
* How many unnatural numbers are created?WM
+* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?FromTheRafters
|`* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?WM
| +* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?FromTheRafters
| |`* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
| | `- Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Phil Carmody
| `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
|  `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?WM
|   `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
|    `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?WM
|     `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
|      `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?WM
|       `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
|        `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?WM
|         +* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
|         |+* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Alan Mackenzie
|         ||`- Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
|         |`* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Tom Bola
|         | `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
|         |  `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Tom Bola
|         |   `- Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?FromTheRafters
|         `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Tom Bola
|          `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
|           `- Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?WM
`* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
 +* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Tom Bola
 |`* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius
 | `- Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Tom Bola
 `* Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?WM
  `- Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?Moebius

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Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?

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From: moebius@example.invalid (Moebius)
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 13:17:19 +0200
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 by: Moebius - Fri, 5 Apr 2024 11:17 UTC

Am 05.04.2024 um 13:09 schrieb Tom Bola:
> Moebius schrieb:
>
>> Am 05.04.2024 um 10:46 schrieb WM:
>>
>>> I [...] accept mathematics:
>>
>> Na, wunderbar!
>>
>> Dann wirst Du der Widerlegung Deines untenstehenden Quarks ja zustimmen:
>>
>>> [...] almost all of the infinitely many ordinal places ω+1, ω+2, ω+3 between ω and ω+ω must be occupied by numbers n + n, where n ∈ ℕ.
>>
>> Für alle n in IN ist n + n in IN.
>>
>> Für alle n in IN: n < ω < ω+1 < ω+2 < ω+3 < ...
>>
>> Also ist kein ω+1, ω+2, ω+3, ... in IN.
>>
>> Also ist für kein n in IN: n + n in {ω+1, ω+2, ω+3, ...}.
>>
>> Einfacher formuliert, dass es vielleicht sogar ein geistesgestörter
>> Spinner versteht: IN enthält NUR (und alle) ENDLICHEN ORDINALZAHLEN. Das
>> DOPPELTE einer natürlichen Zahl ist wieder eine natürliche Zahl. Die
>> Zahlen ω+1, ω+2, ω+3, ... sind aber UNENDLICHE ORDINALZAHLEN. Was
>> unendlich ist, ist nicht endlich. Also ist KEINE der Zahlen ω+1, ω+2,
>> ω+3, ... gleich n + n (wo n eine natürliche Zahl ist).
>
> WM does not get that natural numbers and limit ordinals are totally
> different kind of numbers and sees all of them on a "natural line" whose
> points (i.e. numbers) have distances that are measured in the unit of two
> adjacent natural numbers...

Right. You you nailed it (I guess).

Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?

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From: Tom@bolamail.etc (Tom Bola)
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 13:21:00 +0200
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 by: Tom Bola - Fri, 5 Apr 2024 11:21 UTC

Moebius schrieb:
> Am 05.04.2024 um 13:09 schrieb Tom Bola:
>> Moebius schrieb:
>>
>>> Am 05.04.2024 um 10:46 schrieb WM:
>>>
>>>> I [...] accept mathematics:
>>>
>>> Na, wunderbar!
>>>
>>> Dann wirst Du der Widerlegung Deines untenstehenden Quarks ja zustimmen:
>>>
>>>> [...] almost all of the infinitely many ordinal places ω+1, ω+2, ω+3 between ω and ω+ω must be occupied by numbers n + n, where n ∈ ℕ.
>>>
>>> Für alle n in IN ist n + n in IN.
>>>
>>> Für alle n in IN: n < ω < ω+1 < ω+2 < ω+3 < ...
>>>
>>> Also ist kein ω+1, ω+2, ω+3, ... in IN.
>>>
>>> Also ist für kein n in IN: n + n in {ω+1, ω+2, ω+3, ...}.
>>>
>>> Einfacher formuliert, dass es vielleicht sogar ein geistesgestörter
>>> Spinner versteht: IN enthält NUR (und alle) ENDLICHEN ORDINALZAHLEN. Das
>>> DOPPELTE einer natürlichen Zahl ist wieder eine natürliche Zahl. Die
>>> Zahlen ω+1, ω+2, ω+3, ... sind aber UNENDLICHE ORDINALZAHLEN. Was
>>> unendlich ist, ist nicht endlich. Also ist KEINE der Zahlen ω+1, ω+2,
>>> ω+3, ... gleich n + n (wo n eine natürliche Zahl ist).
>>
>> WM does not get that natural numbers and limit ordinals are totally
>> different kind of numbers and sees all of them on a "natural line" whose
>> points (i.e. numbers) have distances that are measured in the unit of two
>> adjacent natural numbers...
>
> Right. You you nailed it (I guess).

Sure, but WM has "stated" this one of his mythical conceptions
already a few weeks ago (as far as I remind that).

Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?

<uuot5m$1cvbq$1@dont-email.me>

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From: FTR@nomail.afraid.org (FromTheRafters)
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 09:09:04 -0400
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 by: FromTheRafters - Fri, 5 Apr 2024 13:09 UTC

Tom Bola wrote :
> Moebius schrieb:
>> Am 05.04.2024 um 13:09 schrieb Tom Bola:
>>> Moebius schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Am 05.04.2024 um 10:46 schrieb WM:
>>>>
>>>>> I [...] accept mathematics:
>>>>
>>>> Na, wunderbar!
>>>>
>>>> Dann wirst Du der Widerlegung Deines untenstehenden Quarks ja zustimmen:
>>>>
>>>>> [...] almost all of the infinitely many ordinal places ω+1, ω+2, ω+3
>>>>> between ω and ω+ω must be occupied by numbers n + n, where n ∈ ℕ.
>>>>
>>>> Für alle n in IN ist n + n in IN.
>>>>
>>>> Für alle n in IN: n < ω < ω+1 < ω+2 < ω+3 < ...
>>>>
>>>> Also ist kein ω+1, ω+2, ω+3, ... in IN.
>>>>
>>>> Also ist für kein n in IN: n + n in {ω+1, ω+2, ω+3, ...}.
>>>>
>>>> Einfacher formuliert, dass es vielleicht sogar ein geistesgestörter
>>>> Spinner versteht: IN enthält NUR (und alle) ENDLICHEN ORDINALZAHLEN. Das
>>>> DOPPELTE einer natürlichen Zahl ist wieder eine natürliche Zahl. Die
>>>> Zahlen ω+1, ω+2, ω+3, ... sind aber UNENDLICHE ORDINALZAHLEN. Was
>>>> unendlich ist, ist nicht endlich. Also ist KEINE der Zahlen ω+1, ω+2,
>>>> ω+3, ... gleich n + n (wo n eine natürliche Zahl ist).
>>>
>>> WM does not get that natural numbers and limit ordinals are totally
>>> different kind of numbers and sees all of them on a "natural line" whose
>>> points (i.e. numbers) have distances that are measured in the unit of two
>>> adjacent natural numbers...
>>
>> Right. You you nailed it (I guess).
>
> Sure, but WM has "stated" this one of his mythical conceptions
> already a few weeks ago (as far as I remind that).

WM is a potentially infinite collection of misinterpretations. That is
to say, as many as he needs.

Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?

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From: wolfgang.mueckenheim@tha.de (WM)
 by: WM - Sat, 6 Apr 2024 13:18 UTC

Le 05/04/2024 à 11:14, Moebius a écrit :
> Am 05.04.2024 um 13:03 schrieb Tom Bola:
>> The clown WM drivels:
>>
>>> The interval between IN and ω is not longer than a natural number k.
>>
>> ω is not a natural number.

ω is a point on the ordinal axis.
>
> Die Frage ist: Was ist ein "interval between IN and ω". Wenn man d a s
> weiß, d a n n kann man sich Gedanken dazu machen, ob die Behauptung "is
> not longer than a natural number k" darauf zutrifft oder nicht.

We know that no ordinal fits on the ordinal axis between ℕ and ω. That
is enough!
>
> Vermutlich meint er hier aber eigentlich: "The length of the interval
> between IN and ω is not larger than a natural number k."

We could also use less than 1. But the estimation k ∈ ℕ is sufficient.

Regards, WM

Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?

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From: pc+usenet@asdf.org (Phil Carmody)
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: How many unnatural numbers are created?
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2024 15:13:02 +0300
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 by: Phil Carmody - Tue, 16 Apr 2024 12:13 UTC

Moebius <moebius@example.invalid> writes:
> Am 01.04.2024 um 19:35 schrieb FromTheRafters:
>> WM expressed precisely :
>
>>> these numbers ω+2, ω+4, ω+6, ..., are no natural numbers. What is going on?
>>
>> They are the second, fourth, and sixth transfinite ordinals.
>
> Not quite. I mean, usually we would say
>
> | ω is the first, ω+1 is the second, ω+2 is the third ... transfinite
> ordinal
>
> Of course, using the ordinals themselves you might state
>
> | ω is the 0-th, ω+1 is the 1-th, ω+2 is the 2-th ... transfinite ordinal
>
> On the other hand: "Did he win the 0-th prize?" Who would say that?

WM always wins 0-th prize.

Phil
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