https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440323001024
Journal of Archaeological Science
Volume 159, November 2023, 105822

Shanidar et ses fleurs? Reflections on the
palynology of the Neanderthal ‘Flower
Burial’ hypothesis

Abstract
Pollen clumps associated with the skeleton of the
Shanidar 4 Neanderthal were interpreted by the
excavator as evidence for a purposeful burial
with flowers. This was one of several findings
from Shanidar Cave that helped to shape modern
perceptions of Neanderthals as sharing empathic
characteristics with Middle Palaeolithic Homo
sapiens (modern humans). Here the available
evidence is reviewed critically from a
palynological viewpoint. It seems likely that at
least some of the pollen clumps were emplaced by
nesting solitary bees, though other mechanisms
may also have been involved. Shanidar 4 remains
of notable importance, however, in being part
of a tight cluster of remarkably complete and
deliberately emplaced Neanderthal skeletal
remains.

Pollen taphonomy at Shanidar Cave (Kurdish Iraq): an initial evaluation
Marta Fiacconi cs 2015 doi org/10.1016/j.revpalbo.2015.09.003
Rev.Palaeobotany & Palynology 223:87-93
Caves provide important locations for the study of ancient human activity & environment.
One important strand of this ancient environmental work is palynology,
yet the taphonomy of pollen in caves is locally contingent & often complex.
Shanidar Cave was the site of important Hn finds & early palynol.research,
but pollen taphonomy in the cave has not been previously studied,
so it is difficult to judge: what might these ancient pollen assemblages represent?
Here we present pollen from
- a transect of surface samples within the cave &
- comparative surface samples from outside the cave:
at present there is a reasonably close correspondence between assemblages accumulating within & in the external environs of the cave, & with the local vegetation:
stratigraphic samples may also reflect past local vegetation.

Shanidar et ses fleurs?
Reflections on the palynology of the Neanderthal ‘Flower Burial’ hypothesis
2023 J.archaeol.Sci.159, 105822
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440323001024
Pollen clumps ass.x the skeleton of the Shanidar-4 Hn were interpreted by the excavator as evidence for a purposeful burial with flowers.
This was 1 of several findings from Shanidar Cave that helped to shape modern perceptions of Hn as sharing empathic characteristics with mid-Palaeolithic Hs.
Here the available evidence is reviewed critically from a palynological viewpoint.
Likely, at least some of the pollen clumps were emplaced by nesting solitary bees, though other mechanisms may also have been involved.
But Shanidar-4 remains of notable importance in being part of a tight cluster of remarkably complete & deliberately emplaced Hn skeletal remains.

The problem is that flowers aren't significant here. They're not what
matters. Intentional burials matter.

The flowers were only noteworthy as evidence for intentional burials.

But there's plenty of other evidence.

WHAT'S EVEN MORE TELLING:

With plenty of other evidence they attack intentional burials in
Eurasia, and throwing spears, but have fury cave monkeys in Africa
conducting intentional burials AND even marking their tomb with
writing or at least symbols...

A tad lopsided here, isn't it?

But, like I've pointed out many times, paleo anthropology is the
furthest thing from science. It has an agenda, and whatever
advances Out of Africa purity gets in print, and whatever doesn't
gets denied or relabeled.

It's always been this way -- top down, religious edicts. It started
from the very beginning, with Darwin. He's still deified even
now. Piltdown man? How long did it take before that one was
finally put to rest?

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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/730359491090169856

Op dinsdag 17 oktober 2023 om 08:22:41 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:
> The problem is that flowers aren't significant here. They're not what
> matters. Intentional burials matter.
> The flowers were only noteworthy as evidence for intentional burials.
> But there's plenty of other evidence.
> WHAT'S EVEN MORE TELLING:
> With plenty of other evidence they attack intentional burials in
> Eurasia, and throwing spears, but have fury cave monkeys in Africa
> conducting intentional burials AND even marking their tomb with
> writing or at least symbols...
> A tad lopsided here, isn't it?
> But, like I've pointed out many times, paleo anthropology is the
> furthest thing from science. It has an agenda, and whatever
> advances Out of Africa purity gets in print, and whatever doesn't
> gets denied or relabeled.
> It's always been this way -- top down, religious edicts. It started
> from the very beginning, with Darwin. He's still deified even
> now. Piltdown man? How long did it take before that one was
> finally put to rest?

Thanks, JTEM, I only hope that, before I'll die, human waterside evltion will be generally accepted...

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> Thanks, JTEM, I only hope that, before I'll die, human waterside evltion
> will be generally accepted...

I'm absolutely certain that it already is. It's just that academia honestly
is tightly controlled. You don't pull in the big bucks AND contradict the
status quo.

There was a professor in Australia who contradicted the claim that
Gwobull Warbling was killing off the reefs. He was attacked, people
called for him to be fired (I believe he actually was fired) and he
was "Debunked" with strong evidence that agricultural runoff was
killing the reefs.

Agricultural runoff.

AND NOBODY, absolutely NOBODY stopped and said, "Wait! We
just proved him right! There's no heat doing this, it's our waste
water!"

What I'm saying is that it's academia. The problem isn't limited to
Aquatic Ape. Nobody is allowed to step out of line.

But, this does not mean they can't see the truth. It just means that
they're not allowed to say anything, at least not yet.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/173008160138

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

> There was a professor in Australia who contradicted the claim that
> Gwobull Warbling was killing off the reefs. He was attacked, people
> called for him to be fired (I believe he actually was fired) and he
> was "Debunked" with strong evidence that agricultural runoff was
> killing the reefs.

Peter Ridd. He was fired. He did sue. He did win.

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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/173008160138

Op dinsdag 17 oktober 2023 om 22:18:19 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:
> littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Thanks, JTEM, I only hope that, before I'll die, human waterside evolution
> > will be generally accepted...

> I'm absolutely certain that it already is.

By some yes, but I still read idiotic blabla of e.g. John Hawks on AAT etc. And such people still have numerous followers.

> It's just that academia honestly
> is tightly controlled. You don't pull in the big bucks AND contradict the
> status quo.
> There was a professor in Australia who contradicted the claim that
> Gwobull Warbling was killing off the reefs. He was attacked, people
> called for him to be fired (I believe he actually was fired) and he
> was "Debunked" with strong evidence that agricultural runoff was
> killing the reefs.
> Agricultural runoff.
> AND NOBODY, absolutely NOBODY stopped and said, "Wait! We
> just proved him right! There's no heat doing this, it's our waste
> water!"
> What I'm saying is that it's academia. The problem isn't limited to
> Aquatic Ape. Nobody is allowed to step out of line.
> But, this does not mean they can't see the truth. It just means that
> they're not allowed to say anything, at least not yet.

Yes, Elaine was outside academia, I'm outside academia...

But how can these idiots so incredibly be & remain wrong?? Humans don't descend from australopiths, don't even come from Africa, certainly don't come from savanna, didn't hunt systematically, not only humans but all apes were bipedal=aquarboreal etc.etc.etc.

Of course, different AATers said & still say +-different things, but the great lines are obvious: we were waterside.
I can only compare this to the initial non-acceptance of plate tectonics by geologists?

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> Of course, different AATers said & still say +-different things, but
> the great lines are obvious: we were waterside.

Where you & I split are..

#1. I despise linear models. I try to speak in terms of populations,
not species, such as in the example of Australopithecus: There
was interbreeding right up to the very moment when they couldn't.

I think gene flow was mostly asymmetrical, flowing mostly from the
waterside to the inland, but there was DNA working back to the
waterside population...

#2. I am more interested in environment than location.

I agree that Eurasia makes a lot of sense, and I really love your island
talk -- it makes so much sense -- but I kind of see a genetic "Fertile
Crescent" running from the Horn of Africa (or a little south) to
Melanesia, and where precisely "we" began is not so important as the
fact that it was waterside, exploiting marine resources.

> I can only compare this to the initial non-acceptance of plate
> tectonics by geologists?

It's a sickness that's permeating all of science these days, at least
any science that lacks an direct military or industrial (economic)
value.

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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/731796353021247489

Op zondag 22 oktober 2023 om 04:38:33 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:
> littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Of course, different AATers said & still say +-different things, but
> > the great lines are obvious: we were waterside.

> Where you & I split are..
> #1. I despise linear models. I try to speak in terms of populations,
> not species, such as in the example of Australopithecus: There
> was interbreeding right up to the very moment when they couldn't.
> I think gene flow was mostly asymmetrical, flowing mostly from the
> waterside to the inland, but there was DNA working back to the
> waterside population...

Interbreeding with?
I use "Australopithecus"s.s. only for the Plio->early-Pleistocene fossil subgenus of Pan that followed the E.Afr.coast->S-Rift->Transvaal: africanus->robustus cs.
They could not interbreed with Pliocene Homo (humans have no Pliocene Afr.retroviral DNA), who was following the S-Asian coasts ->Java etc.

> #2. I am more interested in environment than location.
> I agree that Eurasia makes a lot of sense, and I really love your island
> talk -- it makes so much sense -- but I kind of see a genetic "Fertile
> Crescent" running from the Horn of Africa (or a little south) to
> Melanesia, and where precisely "we" began is not so important as the
> fact that it was waterside, exploiting marine resources.

Yes.

If this is all where you & I split, there is no real split... :-)

> > I can only compare this to the initial non-acceptance of plate
> > tectonics by geologists?

> It's a sickness that's permeating all of science these days, at least
> any science that lacks an direct military or industrial (economic)
> value.

I'm only trying to understand how these kudu runners can remain so stupid...
What we're saying is not so difficult... :-D

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> littor...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Thanks, JTEM, I only hope that, before I'll die, human waterside evltion
>> will be generally accepted...
>
> I'm absolutely certain that it already is.

And your evidence of that is ... ?

Primum Sapienti wrote:

> And your

Reminder: Flowers were never the issue. People got excited
about the flowers as evidence for prepared burials, what that
said about Neanderthal beliefs. And there's plenty of evidence
for prepared burials. Even in the one case you cite here. So
whether the flower pollen was from grave goods (offerings)
or bees, it's irrelevant. Because the flowers themselves
were never what mattered.

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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/732734215444201472

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
>
[OCPD]

Yeah, the FBI has been informed about you... can't
take any risks.

So, anyway, you are a blithering idiot, quoting
things you never read, much less understood, and
that's why you can't answer even basis questions.

Primum Sapienti wrote:

[---OCPD---]

Nothing has changed. The flowers weren't interesting except
as evidence for prepared burials. Flowers as evidence for
ritual: Interesting. Flowers in and of themselves were nothing.

You never did grasp this... for reasons which are apparent.

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