At approximately 07:08 Mountain View time (-0800), Google appears
to have thrown the switch to disconnect Google Groups from Usenet,
ending the torrent of spam postings that was flooding this group
until then.

PS: I started watching _Baby Bandito_ on Netflix. Chilean Spanish
turns out to be, uhm, interesting. Wikipedia has the subject
covered, of course.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> At approximately 07:08 Mountain View time (-0800), Google appears
> to have thrown the switch to disconnect Google Groups from Usenet,
> ending the torrent of spam postings that was flooding this group
> until then.

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang

i think GG-Usenet (gateway) shutdown happened around 9:44 am Calif time.

On 23/02/2024 2:28 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
> Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
>> At approximately 07:08 Mountain View time (-0800), Google appears
>> to have thrown the switch to disconnect Google Groups from Usenet,
>> ending the torrent of spam postings that was flooding this group
>> until then.
>
>
>
>             https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang
>
> i think GG-Usenet (gateway) shutdown  happened around  9:44 am  Calif time.

There has been a new spam post on GG sci.lang roughly every five minutes
since last October. The last one appeared at 6:43 am NZDT today -- about
15 hours ago. Whew.

"Historical content remains viewable," they say.
I'm glad to hear that, since I do use GG for just that purpose. But has
anybody got an archive that did not terminate this morning?

On 2024-02-22, Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

> PS: I started watching _Baby Bandito_ on Netflix. Chilean Spanish
> turns out to be, uhm, interesting. Wikipedia has the subject
> covered, of course.

One characteristic I don't see mentioned on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_Spanish
is the use of the definite article with a person's name:
"El Kevin es mi mejor amigo."

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Ar an tríú lá is fiche de mí Feabhra, scríobh Christian Weisgerber:

> On 2024-02-22, Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
> > PS: I started watching _Baby Bandito_ on Netflix. Chilean Spanish
> > turns out to be, uhm, interesting. Wikipedia has the subject
> > covered, of course.
>
> One characteristic I don't see mentioned on
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_Spanish
> is the use of the definite article with a person's name:
> "El Kevin es mi mejor amigo."

Surely that’s a standard average European thing? Der Kevin ist mein bester
Freund, le Kevin, c’est mon meilleur ami?

Though I do admit the lack of this was one of the things about European Spanish
that struck me as more parallel to English when I was learning the former.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

On 2024-02-24, Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:

> > One characteristic I don't see mentioned on
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_Spanish
> > is the use of the definite article with a person's name:
> > "El Kevin es mi mejor amigo."
>
> Surely that’s a standard average European thing? Der Kevin ist mein bester
> Freund, le Kevin, c’est mon meilleur ami?

That's considered substandard.

If you look at which European languages have this, and you go by
the standard languages, it's not that common. Portuguese comes to
mind. However, if you look at it at the regiolect/dialect level,
you are probably going to see a patchwork quilt.

> Though I do admit the lack of this was one of the things about European Spanish
> that struck me as more parallel to English when I was learning the former.

I'll venture the guess that it exists regionally in European Spanish,
too. ... The first random claim that pops up in a Google search
says in Catalonia and blames it on Catalan influence.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 26/02/2024 4:45 a.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2024-02-24, Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
>
>>> One characteristic I don't see mentioned on
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_Spanish
>>> is the use of the definite article with a person's name:
>>> "El Kevin es mi mejor amigo."
>>
>> Surely that’s a standard average European thing? Der Kevin ist mein bester
>> Freund, le Kevin, c’est mon meilleur ami?
>
> That's considered substandard.
>
> If you look at which European languages have this, and you go by
> the standard languages, it's not that common. Portuguese comes to
> mind. However, if you look at it at the regiolect/dialect level,
> you are probably going to see a patchwork quilt.

A couple of years studying (standard) German gave me no hint of this. I
first noticed it in dialogue in one of Fassbinder's films. Is it
universal in colloquial German?

>
>> Though I do admit the lack of this was one of the things about European Spanish
>> that struck me as more parallel to English when I was learning the former.
>
> I'll venture the guess that it exists regionally in European Spanish,
> too. ... The first random claim that pops up in a Google search
> says in Catalonia and blames it on Catalan influence.
>

On 2024-02-25, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

>>> Surely that’s a standard average European thing? Der Kevin ist mein bester
>>> Freund, le Kevin, c’est mon meilleur ami?
>
> A couple of years studying (standard) German gave me no hint of this. I
> first noticed it in dialogue in one of Fassbinder's films. Is it
> universal in colloquial German?

It's a central/southern feature. Maps:
https://www.atlas-alltagssprache.de/artikelvorname/

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 2024-02-22 23:00:12 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:

> At approximately 07:08 Mountain View time (-0800), Google appears
> to have thrown the switch to disconnect Google Groups from Usenet,
> ending the torrent of spam postings that was flooding this group
> until then.
>
>
> PS: I started watching _Baby Bandito_ on Netflix. Chilean Spanish
> turns out to be, uhm, interesting. Wikipedia has the subject
> covered, of course.

Could you expand on that? As it happens Chilean Spanish is the Spanish
that I know best, heavily influenced in recent years by Spanish Spanish.

--
Athel cb

On 2024-02-23 22:47:05 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:

> On 2024-02-22, Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>> PS: I started watching _Baby Bandito_ on Netflix. Chilean Spanish
>> turns out to be, uhm, interesting. Wikipedia has the subject
>> covered, of course.
>
> One characteristic I don't see mentioned on
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_Spanish
> is the use of the definite article with a person's name:
> "El Kevin es mi mejor amigo."

True.

--
Athel cb

On 2024-03-04, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> PS: I started watching _Baby Bandito_ on Netflix. Chilean Spanish
>> turns out to be, uhm, interesting. Wikipedia has the subject
>> covered, of course.
>
> Could you expand on that? As it happens Chilean Spanish is the Spanish
> that I know best, heavily influenced in recent years by Spanish Spanish.

The two salient properties are the pronunciation of -s and Chilean
voseo.

Coda /s/ is debuccalized to [h] or even deleted completely.
Considering the importance of -s for the Spanish inflectional system,
loss of -s should trigger significant compensatory changes. That
doesn't really seem to be the case (but see below), so I guess there
is a lot of [h] pronunciation left, even though I have a hard time
hearing it.

When people talk to each other, the verb forms are weird. Okay,
so it's voseo. Except, it's not. Well, it is, but not the more
familiar Rioplatense kind. Chilean comes with its own set of
voseo endings, frequently used with tú as well. In short:
-áis > -ái
-ais > -ai
-éis > -ís
-ís > -ís
That is oddly asymmetric. Is the final -s of -ís actually pronounced?
Or is this merely an orthographic convention to distinguish it from
the indefinido 1. sg. -í? The use of -ái/-ai introduces no ambiguity
and compensates for the loss of -s when compared to normal voseo
-ás/-as.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Sat, 9 Mar 2024 20:51:13 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

>On 2024-03-04, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> PS: I started watching _Baby Bandito_ on Netflix. Chilean Spanish
>>> turns out to be, uhm, interesting. Wikipedia has the subject
>>> covered, of course.
>>
>> Could you expand on that? As it happens Chilean Spanish is the Spanish
>> that I know best, heavily influenced in recent years by Spanish Spanish.
>
>The two salient properties are the pronunciation of -s and Chilean
>voseo.
>
>Coda /s/ is debuccalized to [h] or even deleted completely.

That's not typical of Chile. It also happens in Argentinian, Cuban and
Andalusian Spanish. And propably a lot of other too.

>Considering the importance of -s for the Spanish inflectional system,
>loss of -s should trigger significant compensatory changes. That
>doesn't really seem to be the case (but see below), so I guess there
>is a lot of [h] pronunciation left, even though I have a hard time
>hearing it.
>
>When people talk to each other, the verb forms are weird. Okay,
>so it's voseo. Except, it's not. Well, it is, but not the more
>familiar Rioplatense kind. Chilean comes with its own set of
>voseo endings, frequently used with tú as well. In short:
> -áis > -ái
> -ais > -ai
> -éis > -ís
> -ís > -ís
>That is oddly asymmetric. Is the final -s of -ís actually pronounced?
>Or is this merely an orthographic convention to distinguish it from
>the indefinido 1. sg. -í? The use of -ái/-ai introduces no ambiguity
>and compensates for the loss of -s when compared to normal voseo
>-ás/-as.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On 2024-03-09 20:51:13 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:

> On 2024-03-04, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> PS: I started watching _Baby Bandito_ on Netflix. Chilean Spanish
>>> turns out to be, uhm, interesting. Wikipedia has the subject
>>> covered, of course.
>>
>> Could you expand on that? As it happens Chilean Spanish is the Spanish
>> that I know best, heavily influenced in recent years by Spanish Spanish.
>
> The two salient properties are the pronunciation of -s and Chilean
> voseo.
>
> Coda /s/ is debuccalized to [h] or even deleted completely.

Exactly right. One would say lo[h] Chileno[] hablan castellano muy bien
though someone from Spain might say los Chilenos hablan castellano muy
malo.

> Considering the importance of -s for the Spanish inflectional system,
> loss of -s should trigger significant compensatory changes. That
> doesn't really seem to be the case (but see below), so I guess there
> is a lot of [h] pronunciation left, even though I have a hard time
> hearing it.
>
> When people talk to each other, the verb forms are weird. Okay,
> so it's voseo. Except, it's not. Well, it is, but not the more
> familiar Rioplatense kind. Chilean comes with its own set of
> voseo endings, frequently used with tú as well. In short:
> -áis > -ái
> -ais > -ai
> -éis > -ís
> -ís > -ís
> That is oddly asymmetric. Is the final -s of -ís actually pronounced?
> Or is this merely an orthographic convention to distinguish it from
> the indefinido 1. sg. -í? The use of -ái/-ai introduces no ambiguity
> and compensates for the loss of -s when compared to normal voseo
> -ás/-as.

I've never noticed any sort of voseo in any of the sort of people I
talk to in Chile (or at home for that matter). Health permitting, we
hope to be in Chile in October, so I'll be on the lookout for voseo.

--
Athel cb

On 2024-03-10 06:12:46 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:

> Sat, 9 Mar 2024 20:51:13 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
> <naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
>
>> On 2024-03-04, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> PS: I started watching _Baby Bandito_ on Netflix. Chilean Spanish
>>>> turns out to be, uhm, interesting. Wikipedia has the subject
>>>> covered, of course.
>>>
>>> Could you expand on that? As it happens Chilean Spanish is the Spanish
>>> that I know best, heavily influenced in recent years by Spanish Spanish.
>>
>> The two salient properties are the pronunciation of -s and Chilean
>> voseo.
>>
>> Coda /s/ is debuccalized to [h] or even deleted completely.
>
> That's not typical of Chile. It also happens in Argentinian, Cuban and
> Andalusian Spanish. And propably a lot of other too.

Maybe, but it's much more common in Chile. I've never noticed it in
Tenerife, for example, where the language is close to Latin American.
"Andalusian Spanish" is not one monolithic thing, by no means the same
in Sevilla and Córdoba, for example, despite the no great distance
between the two. I understand Sevilla speech easily, and have more
difficulty with Córdoba or Granada. Tenerife is easier than any of them.

>
>> Considering the importance of -s for the Spanish inflectional system,
>> loss of -s should trigger significant compensatory changes. That
>> doesn't really seem to be the case (but see below), so I guess there
>> is a lot of [h] pronunciation left, even though I have a hard time
>> hearing it.--
Athel cb

On 2024-03-10, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

>>Coda /s/ is debuccalized to [h] or even deleted completely.
>
> That's not typical of Chile. It also happens in Argentinian, Cuban and
> Andalusian Spanish. And propably a lot of other too.

I haven't noticed it before to this degree in media Spanish.
(I still need to watch something from Argentinia.)

Of course media portrayals are to be taken with a grain of salt and
may not be representative of how people actually speak.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 2024-03-10, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've never noticed any sort of voseo in any of the sort of people I
> talk to in Chile (or at home for that matter).

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espa%C3%B1ol_chileno#Voseo

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 2024-03-10 14:02:51 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:

> On 2024-03-10, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I've never noticed any sort of voseo in any of the sort of people I
>> talk to in Chile (or at home for that matter).
>
> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espa%C3%B1ol_chileno#Voseo

No doubt the autors of the article know more than I do, and take
account of a broader range of people than those I know, so I'll just
repeat: I've never heard "vos" in Chile -- a big contrast with
Montevideo, say, where one can hardly spend 30 minutes without hearing
"vos".

--
Athel cb

On 2024-03-10 14:00:05 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:

> On 2024-03-10, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>>> Coda /s/ is debuccalized to [h] or even deleted completely.
>>
>> That's not typical of Chile. It also happens in Argentinian, Cuban and
>> Andalusian Spanish. And propably a lot of other too.
>
> I haven't noticed it before to this degree in media Spanish.
> (I still need to watch something from Argentinia.)
>
> Of course media portrayals are to be taken with a grain of salt and
> may not be representative of how people actually speak.

That's very evident in Marseilles (where I live). Plus Belle la Vie has
been a very successful series, supposedly set in Marseilles. Although
I've never watched it systematically I often catch snippets while
waiting for other programmes to start. Not a single character speaks
with a Marseilles accent, though it's not a difficult accent to
understand. Many of them also have blue eyes, which are rare here in
reality.

--
Athel cb

Sun, 10 Mar 2024 15:40:39 +0100: Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com>
scribeva:

>On 2024-03-10 14:02:51 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:
>
>> On 2024-03-10, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've never noticed any sort of voseo in any of the sort of people I
>>> talk to in Chile (or at home for that matter).
>>
>> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espa%C3%B1ol_chileno#Voseo
>
>No doubt the autors of the article know more than I do, and take
>account of a broader range of people than those I know, so I'll just
>repeat: I've never heard "vos" in Chile --

Literally no 'vos', or also no to-vos-belonging verb forms?

>a big contrast with
>Montevideo, say, where one can hardly spend 30 minutes without hearing
>"vos".

I know them only from old-fashioned Argentinian Spanish, in tango
songs, where there was also literally no vos, due to Spanish being
pro-drop, but I did notice "Que falta que me hacés", which has puzzled
me for years, thinking it should be "haces", but it clearly isn't;
because Wikipedia wasn't as comprehensive 15 or 20 years ago as it is
now, or maybe I didn't properly look it up.

I love the song, especially in this version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLkFC5KaAH8
Miguel Caló - Alberto Podestá
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Sun, 10 Mar 2024 14:00:05 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

>On 2024-03-10, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>>>Coda /s/ is debuccalized to [h] or even deleted completely.
>>
>> That's not typical of Chile. It also happens in Argentinian, Cuban and
>> Andalusian Spanish. And propably a lot of other too.
>
>I haven't noticed it before to this degree in media Spanish.
>(I still need to watch something from Argentinia.)

Old tango music is chockful of it:
https://www.todotango.com/english/artists/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03UbHQ8JWHQ

For years I am have been wondering what the French word "vite" was
doing in a tango song. Until finally I found somewhere on the internet
that it is actually "viste" with an aspirated or almost elided s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrG5ernfF88
Lyrics are here, for example:
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/balada-para-un-loco-ballad-crazy.html

>Of course media portrayals are to be taken with a grain of salt and
>may not be representative of how people actually speak.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Sun, 10 Mar 2024 16:32:50 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrG5ernfF88
>Lyrics are here, for example:
>https://lyricstranslate.com/en/balada-para-un-loco-ballad-crazy.html

There are several different registers in the song, both spoken and
sung, with varying degrees of final s elision.

Also striking is that consonantal y, and ll, are spoken almost as [z],
which in current Argentinian Spanish is more likely to be [S]. These
tangos are mostly from the 1940s and 1950s, so 85 to 75 years old.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On 2024-03-10, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

[voseo]
> I know them only from old-fashioned Argentinian Spanish, in tango
> songs, where there was also literally no vos, due to Spanish being
> pro-drop, but I did notice "Que falta que me hacés", which has puzzled
> me for years, thinking it should be "haces", but it clearly isn't;

Early on when I started looking at Spanish, I was watching this DJ
video by Hernán Cattáneo, which has prominent advertising, ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ovKj1201so&t=65s

Ford
Llegá más lejos

.... and I was also like "what verb form is THAT?".

The conjugation tables for Spanish verbs on English Wikipedia have
the vos forms. The normal ones, that is. Not the Chilean ones.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 2024-03-10, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espa%C3%B1ol_chileno#Voseo
>
> No doubt the autors of the article know more than I do, and take
> account of a broader range of people than those I know,

FWIW, the description also matches up well with the portroyal in
_Baby Bandito_.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Sun, 10 Mar 2024 18:26:47 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

>On 2024-03-10, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espa%C3%B1ol_chileno#Voseo
>>
>> No doubt the autors of the article know more than I do, and take
>> account of a broader range of people than those I know,
>
>FWIW, the description also matches up well with the portroyal

A harbour for kings and queens?

>in _Baby Bandito_.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com