I thought that Vallesian crisis marks the point, but now I think that
it is even earlier. The key is Hipparione horses. They dwelt in
Beringia. The only thing that could make them go west is burned
surrounding, for which they are adapted. And by 12 Ma they were already
in Vienna basin.
Good indicator is global temperature fluctuation. Those burning change
the luminescence of Earth, so Earth reflects more or lass sunlight. If
vegetation is thick, this swallows sunlight, if it is thin, more
sunlight is reflected into space, so Earth is colder. Very good example
is Younger Dryas, which happened immediately after humans started to
burn Americas. Well, similar situation happened in the middle of
Miocene, around 14 Ma, and it is called 'Middle Miocene disruption'.
So, I would say that people learnt about fire immediately after they
reached Portugal (15 Ma). It has to be Portugal, because this is where
you can learn about the effects of burning, in Portugal you have
pyrophytic Mediterranean ecology. But how come we only have savanna at 8
Ma, in India, in Sahara, probably earlier at North Mediterranean? Well,
this is the developed condition. It is only natural that at first you
have one occurrence of some phenomenon, then later another, then more
and more, this is the natural progression, you don't have the developed
stage right from the start. At those times temperature was still pretty
high, so precipitation was also pretty high, so vegetation could
replenish easily.

On 29.11.2023. 23:53, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> https://youtu.be/pG8TyIEAqps?feature=shared
>
> To my surprise, one hundred stories high
> People getting loose y'all, getting down on the roof
> Folks are screaming, out of control
> It was so entertaining when the boogie started to explode
> I heard somebody say
> disco inferno
> (Burn baby burn) burn that mother down
> (Burn baby burn) disco inferno
> (Burn baby burn) burn that mother down

https://youtu.be/7abtI682lYA?si=l_qc2-WbPGZmw_jP

On 30.11.2023. 1:22, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 29.11.2023. 23:53, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
>> https://youtu.be/pG8TyIEAqps?feature=shared
>>
>> To my surprise, one hundred stories high
>> People getting loose y'all, getting down on the roof
>> Folks are screaming, out of control
>> It was so entertaining when the boogie started to explode
>> I heard somebody say
>> disco inferno
>> (Burn baby burn) burn that mother down
>> (Burn baby burn) disco inferno
>> (Burn baby burn) burn that mother down
>
> https://youtu.be/7abtI682lYA?si=l_qc2-WbPGZmw_jP

Disco few million years ago:
https://youtu.be/dXlAgg3zXmk?si=v5SGHtt0S5f40bNe

On 30.11.2023. 1:44, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 30.11.2023. 1:22, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 29.11.2023. 23:53, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
>>> https://youtu.be/pG8TyIEAqps?feature=shared
>>>
>>> To my surprise, one hundred stories high
>>> People getting loose y'all, getting down on the roof
>>> Folks are screaming, out of control
>>> It was so entertaining when the boogie started to explode
>>> I heard somebody say
>>> disco inferno
>>> (Burn baby burn) burn that mother down
>>> (Burn baby burn) disco inferno
>>> (Burn baby burn) burn that mother down
>>
>> https://youtu.be/7abtI682lYA?si=l_qc2-WbPGZmw_jP
>
>         Disco few million years ago:
> https://youtu.be/dXlAgg3zXmk?si=v5SGHtt0S5f40bNe

It wasn't always a mad house:
https://www.youtube.com/live/ePE4n3G_Jv8?si=t3ooIF3BsW9tFHcd

On 29.11.2023. 19:52, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>         I thought that Vallesian crisis marks the point, but now I
> think that it is even earlier. The key is Hipparione horses. They dwelt
> in Beringia. The only thing that could make them go west is burned
> surrounding, for which they are adapted. And by 12 Ma they were already
> in Vienna basin.
>         Good indicator is global temperature fluctuation. Those burning
> change the luminescence of Earth, so Earth reflects more or lass
> sunlight. If vegetation is thick, this swallows sunlight, if it is thin,
> more sunlight is reflected into space, so Earth is colder. Very good
> example is Younger Dryas, which happened immediately after humans
> started to burn Americas. Well, similar situation happened in the middle
> of Miocene, around 14 Ma, and it is called 'Middle Miocene disruption'.
>         So, I would say that people learnt about fire immediately after
> they reached Portugal (15 Ma). It has to be Portugal, because this is
> where you can learn about the effects of burning, in Portugal you have
> pyrophytic Mediterranean ecology. But how come we only have savanna at 8
> Ma, in India, in Sahara, probably earlier at North Mediterranean? Well,
> this is the developed condition. It is only natural that at first you
> have one occurrence of some phenomenon, then later another, then more
> and more, this is the natural progression, you don't have the developed
> stage right from the start. At those times temperature was still pretty
> high, so precipitation was also pretty high, so vegetation could
> replenish easily.

Actually, this is how it went. It looks like the recent research says
that humans already lived in mosaic environment in East African Great
Rift Valley, 21 Ma:
https://news.umich.edu/apes-may-have-evolved-upright-stature-for-leaves-not-fruit-in-open-woodland-habitats/
So what happened? In Africa burning was only around the Great Rift
Valley. When humans moved to Europe, there they lived on sea cliffs. But
those sea cliffs were everywhere, on north Mediterranean coast, which is
very developed, then, around Paratethys, which is also pretty developed
(it looks like), so they burnt a lot of area. And this additional burnt
area caused Middle Miocene climatic disruption.

On 1.12.2023. 4:12, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 29.11.2023. 19:52, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>          I thought that Vallesian crisis marks the point, but now I
>> think that it is even earlier. The key is Hipparione horses. They
>> dwelt in Beringia. The only thing that could make them go west is
>> burned surrounding, for which they are adapted. And by 12 Ma they were
>> already in Vienna basin.
>>          Good indicator is global temperature fluctuation. Those
>> burning change the luminescence of Earth, so Earth reflects more or
>> lass sunlight. If vegetation is thick, this swallows sunlight, if it
>> is thin, more sunlight is reflected into space, so Earth is colder.
>> Very good example is Younger Dryas, which happened immediately after
>> humans started to burn Americas. Well, similar situation happened in
>> the middle of Miocene, around 14 Ma, and it is called 'Middle Miocene
>> disruption'.
>>          So, I would say that people learnt about fire immediately
>> after they reached Portugal (15 Ma). It has to be Portugal, because
>> this is where you can learn about the effects of burning, in Portugal
>> you have pyrophytic Mediterranean ecology. But how come we only have
>> savanna at 8 Ma, in India, in Sahara, probably earlier at North
>> Mediterranean? Well, this is the developed condition. It is only
>> natural that at first you have one occurrence of some phenomenon, then
>> later another, then more and more, this is the natural progression,
>> you don't have the developed stage right from the start. At those
>> times temperature was still pretty high, so precipitation was also
>> pretty high, so vegetation could replenish easily.
>
>         Actually, this is how it went. It looks like the recent
> research says that humans already lived in mosaic environment in East
> African Great Rift Valley, 21 Ma:
> https://news.umich.edu/apes-may-have-evolved-upright-stature-for-leaves-not-fruit-in-open-woodland-habitats/
>         So what happened? In Africa burning was only around the Great
> Rift Valley. When humans moved to Europe, there they lived on sea
> cliffs. But those sea cliffs were everywhere, on north Mediterranean
> coast, which is very developed, then, around Paratethys, which is also
> pretty developed (it looks like), so they burnt a lot of area. And this
> additional burnt area caused Middle Miocene climatic disruption.

Actually, to cause so big burning you first need to be bipedal.
Morotopithecus, although having thick enamel, hence eating shellfish, he
didn't have to be bipedal. Sea waves are the cause of bipedality,
because sea waves push from behind, which forces body muscles to counter
this force by pulling the body upright. So, this happens at sea coast.
So, Morotopithecus did live in mosaic environment, on cliffs, eating
shellfish, but he wasn't bipedal, so he couldn't burn around, it were
only the numerous active volcanoes in the Great Rift Valley that burned,
and cause the *local* shift in environment (something similar happened
in Chile, 30 Ma, I think this is the first recognized grassland). So,
when humans became bipedal, only then they could start to burn all
around, and feed on roasted meat. And this happened on sea coast right
before Middle Miocene climatic disruption.

On 1.12.2023. 4:12, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 29.11.2023. 19:52, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>          I thought that Vallesian crisis marks the point, but now I
>> think that it is even earlier. The key is Hipparione horses. They
>> dwelt in Beringia. The only thing that could make them go west is
>> burned surrounding, for which they are adapted. And by 12 Ma they were
>> already in Vienna basin.
>>          Good indicator is global temperature fluctuation. Those
>> burning change the luminescence of Earth, so Earth reflects more or
>> lass sunlight. If vegetation is thick, this swallows sunlight, if it
>> is thin, more sunlight is reflected into space, so Earth is colder.
>> Very good example is Younger Dryas, which happened immediately after
>> humans started to burn Americas. Well, similar situation happened in
>> the middle of Miocene, around 14 Ma, and it is called 'Middle Miocene
>> disruption'.
>>          So, I would say that people learnt about fire immediately
>> after they reached Portugal (15 Ma). It has to be Portugal, because
>> this is where you can learn about the effects of burning, in Portugal
>> you have pyrophytic Mediterranean ecology. But how come we only have
>> savanna at 8 Ma, in India, in Sahara, probably earlier at North
>> Mediterranean? Well, this is the developed condition. It is only
>> natural that at first you have one occurrence of some phenomenon, then
>> later another, then more and more, this is the natural progression,
>> you don't have the developed stage right from the start. At those
>> times temperature was still pretty high, so precipitation was also
>> pretty high, so vegetation could replenish easily.
>
>         Actually, this is how it went. It looks like the recent
> research says that humans already lived in mosaic environment in East
> African Great Rift Valley, 21 Ma:
> https://news.umich.edu/apes-may-have-evolved-upright-stature-for-leaves-not-fruit-in-open-woodland-habitats/
>         So what happened? In Africa burning was only around the Great
> Rift Valley. When humans moved to Europe, there they lived on sea
> cliffs. But those sea cliffs were everywhere, on north Mediterranean
> coast, which is very developed, then, around Paratethys, which is also
> pretty developed (it looks like), so they burnt a lot of area. And this
> additional burnt area caused Middle Miocene climatic disruption.

Actually, to cause so big burning you first need to be bipedal.
Morotopithecus, although having thick enamel, hence eating shellfish, he
didn't have to be bipedal. Sea waves are the cause of bipedality,
because sea waves push from behind, which forces body muscles to counter
this force by pulling the body upright. So, this happens at sea coast.
So, Morotopithecus did live in mosaic environment, on cliffs, eating
shellfish, but he wasn't bipedal, so he couldn't burn around, it were
only the numerous active volcanoes in the Great Rift Valley that burned,
and cause the *local* shift in environment (something similar happened
in Chile, 30 Ma, I think this is the first recognized grassland). So,
when humans became bipedal, only then they could start to burn all
around, and feed on roasted meat. And this happened on sea coast right
before Middle Miocene climatic disruption.

On 1.12.2023. 4:12, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 29.11.2023. 19:52, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>          I thought that Vallesian crisis marks the point, but now I
>> think that it is even earlier. The key is Hipparione horses. They
>> dwelt in Beringia. The only thing that could make them go west is
>> burned surrounding, for which they are adapted. And by 12 Ma they were
>> already in Vienna basin.
>>          Good indicator is global temperature fluctuation. Those
>> burning change the luminescence of Earth, so Earth reflects more or
>> lass sunlight. If vegetation is thick, this swallows sunlight, if it
>> is thin, more sunlight is reflected into space, so Earth is colder.
>> Very good example is Younger Dryas, which happened immediately after
>> humans started to burn Americas. Well, similar situation happened in
>> the middle of Miocene, around 14 Ma, and it is called 'Middle Miocene
>> disruption'.
>>          So, I would say that people learnt about fire immediately
>> after they reached Portugal (15 Ma). It has to be Portugal, because
>> this is where you can learn about the effects of burning, in Portugal
>> you have pyrophytic Mediterranean ecology. But how come we only have
>> savanna at 8 Ma, in India, in Sahara, probably earlier at North
>> Mediterranean? Well, this is the developed condition. It is only
>> natural that at first you have one occurrence of some phenomenon, then
>> later another, then more and more, this is the natural progression,
>> you don't have the developed stage right from the start. At those
>> times temperature was still pretty high, so precipitation was also
>> pretty high, so vegetation could replenish easily.
>
>         Actually, this is how it went. It looks like the recent
> research says that humans already lived in mosaic environment in East
> African Great Rift Valley, 21 Ma:
> https://news.umich.edu/apes-may-have-evolved-upright-stature-for-leaves-not-fruit-in-open-woodland-habitats/
>         So what happened? In Africa burning was only around the Great
> Rift Valley. When humans moved to Europe, there they lived on sea
> cliffs. But those sea cliffs were everywhere, on north Mediterranean
> coast, which is very developed, then, around Paratethys, which is also
> pretty developed (it looks like), so they burnt a lot of area. And this
> additional burnt area caused Middle Miocene climatic disruption.

Actually, to cause so big burning you first need to be bipedal.
Morotopithecus, although having thick enamel, hence eating shellfish, he
didn't have to be bipedal. Sea waves are the cause of bipedality,
because sea waves push from behind, which forces body muscles to counter
this force by pulling the body upright. So, this happens at sea coast.
So, Morotopithecus did live in mosaic environment, on cliffs, eating
shellfish, but he wasn't bipedal, so he couldn't burn around, it were
only the numerous active volcanoes in the Great Rift Valley that burned,
and cause the *local* shift in environment (something similar happened
in Chile, 30 Ma, I think this is the first recognized grassland). So,
when humans became bipedal, only then they could start to burn all
around, and feed on roasted meat. And this happened on sea coast right
before Middle Miocene climatic disruption.

On 1.12.2023. 10:33, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 04:25:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>
> ...
>
>> Actually, to cause so big burning you first need to be bipedal.
>
> :-DDD

Is marijuana legal in Belgium?

On 1.12.2023. 17:01, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 15:53:53 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>> On 1.12.2023. 10:33, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 04:25:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>
> ...
>
>>>> Actually, to cause so big burning you first need to be bipedal.
>
>>> :-DDD
>
>> Is marijuana legal in Belgium?
>
> :-D I have no idea, Mario, but early-Miocene Hominoidea were already BP,
> google "aquarboreal".

Ah, you grow your own stuff, ;) .

On 1.12.2023. 19:22, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 18:17:17 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>> On 1.12.2023. 17:01, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 15:53:53 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>>> On 1.12.2023. 10:33, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>>>> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 04:25:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>
> ...
>
>>>>>> Actually, to cause so big burning you first need to be bipedal.
>
>>>>> :-DDD
>
>>>> Is marijuana legal in Belgium?
>
>>> :-D I have no idea, Mario, but early-Miocene Hominoidea were already BP,
>>> google "aquarboreal".
>
>> Ah, you grow your own stuff, ;)
>
> :-) Mario becoming a bit sensible?

As I told you numerous times, it isn't hard to be bipedal, everybody
can be bipedal without problems (even in Oligocene, no problemo,
dinosaurs were bipedal for god's sake). The question is, why we cannot
be quadrupedal anymore? It cannot be that we didn't need quadrupedality.
Quadrupedality has big advantages, of course, this is why everybody *is*
quadrupedal, including apes. So, why we stopped to use it, this is the
question.
I know the answer, of course, but nobody wants to listen.
https://youtu.be/Mk-HHyGRSRw?si=QWJoQese_gOAlyi8

On 1.12.2023. 23:13, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 22:35:23 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>
> ...
>
>> As I told you numerous times, it isn't hard to be bipedal,
>
> Yes, of course, but Hominoidea (vs Catarrhini):
> - bipedal sensu google "aquarboreal"
> - complete tail loss
> - larger body size (hylobatids still long gestation)
> - very broad sternum (Latisternalia)
> - dorsal scapulas (lateral & upward arm movements)
> - shorter & centrally-placed lumbar spine
> - etc.
>
> -Hylobatids are still BP (vertical + brachiation),
> -Pongo had to evolve fist-walking to become QP again,
> -Gorilla // Pan had to evolve knuckle-walking (in parallel).
>
> Google
> "aquarboreal" or
> "GondwanaTalk Verhaegen English".
>
> ____
>
>
>> everybody
>> can be bipedal without problems (even in Oligocene, no problemo,
>> dinosaurs were bipedal for god's sake). The question is, why we cannot
>> be quadrupedal anymore? It cannot be that we didn't need quadrupedality.
>> Quadrupedality has big advantages, of course, this is why everybody *is*
>> quadrupedal, including apes. So, why we stopped to use it, this is the
>> question.
>> I know the answer, of course, but nobody wants to listen.
>> https://youtu.be/Mk-HHyGRSRw?si=QWJoQese_gOAlyi8

No, it is just the case that ape hand is build like a hook, it has
limited extension. Knuckle-walking is just a developed stage, Orangutan
has to do fist walking since he doesn't have developed cushion pads.

On 2.12.2023. 11:40, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op zaterdag 2 december 2023 om 00:38:38 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>> On 1.12.2023. 23:13, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 22:35:23 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
> ...
>
> Miocene Hominoidea (vs Catarrhini):
> -- bipedal sensu google "aquarboreal"
> -- complete tail loss
> -- larger body size (hylobatids still long gestation)
> -- very broad sternum (Latisternalia)
> -- dorsal scapulas (lateral & upward arm movements)
> -- shorter & centrally-placed lumbar spine - etc.
>
> -Hylobatids are still BP (vertical + brachiation),
> -Pongo had to evolve fist-walking to become QP again,
> -Gorilla // Pan had to evolve knuckle-walking (in parallel).
> Google "aquarboreal" or "GondwanaTalk Verhaegen English".
>
> ____
>
>>>> everybody
>>>> can be bipedal without problems (even in Oligocene, no problemo,
>>>> dinosaurs were bipedal for god's sake). The question is, why we cannot
>>>> be quadrupedal anymore? It cannot be that we didn't need quadrupedality.
>>>> Quadrupedality has big advantages, of course, this is why everybody *is*
>>>> quadrupedal, including apes. So, why we stopped to use it, this is the
>>>> question.
>>>> I know the answer, of course, but nobody wants to listen.
>>>> https://youtu.be/Mk-HHyGRSRw?si=QWJoQese_gOAlyi8
>
> :-DDD
> You better ask: did ursids have aquarboreal ancestors? only predom.wading?

It really doesn't matter, we have different pelvis, we have different
backbone. You better ask, what is the reason for that?
I told you, the key isn't in bipedality, chicken are bipedal, the
question is why we have our unique features, this is the question.
Everybody asks the wrong question, it isn't a problem to be bipedal,
everybody is bipedal sometimes. Even elephants.

>> No, it is just the case that ape hand is build like a hook, it has
>> limited extension. Knuckle-walking is just a developed stage, Orangutan
>> has to do fist walking since he doesn't have developed cushion pads.
>
> All Hominoidea had aquarboreal ancestors,
> but probably late-Miocene hominids swam more than pongids.
>
> In the 1980s, I already said:
> - humans never had KWing ancestors,
> - KWing evolved in parallel in Pan//Gorilla,
> nowadays this seems to be generally accepted.

First and foremost, all Hominoidea are orthograde. This is reflected
in our imprinted backbone. This means that the surface wasn't
horizontal, but vertical. Vertical clinging.

On 2.12.2023. 13:08, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op zaterdag 2 december 2023 om 12:35:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>> On 2.12.2023. 11:40, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>> Op zaterdag 2 december 2023 om 00:38:38 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>>> On 1.12.2023. 23:13, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>>>> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 22:35:23 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
> ...
>
>>> Miocene Hominoidea (vs Catarrhini):
>>> -- bipedal sensu google "aquarboreal"
>>> -- complete tail loss
>>> -- larger body size (hylobatids still long gestation)
>>> -- very broad sternum (Latisternalia)
>>> -- dorsal scapulas (lateral & upward arm movements)
>>> -- shorter & centrally-placed lumbar spine - etc.
>>> -Hylobatids are still BP (vertical + brachiation),
>>> -Pongo had to evolve fist-walking to become QP again,
>>> -Gorilla // Pan had to evolve knuckle-walking (in parallel).
>>> Google "aquarboreal" or "GondwanaTalk Verhaegen English".
> ____
>
>>>>>> everybody
>>>>>> can be bipedal without problems (even in Oligocene, no problemo,
>>>>>> dinosaurs were bipedal for god's sake). The question is, why we cannot
>>>>>> be quadrupedal anymore? It cannot be that we didn't need quadrupedality.
>>>>>> Quadrupedality has big advantages, of course, this is why everybody *is*
>>>>>> quadrupedal, including apes. So, why we stopped to use it, this is the
>>>>>> question.
>>>>>> I know the answer, of course, but nobody wants to listen.
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/Mk-HHyGRSRw?si=QWJoQese_gOAlyi8
>
>>> :-DDD You better ask: did ursids have aquarboreal ancestors? only predom.wading?
>
>> It really doesn't matter, we have different pelvis, we have different
>> backbone.
>
> Yes, that's what I said - can't you read??
>
>> You better ask, what is the reason for that?
>> I told you, the key isn't in bipedality, chicken are bipedal, the
>> question is why we have our unique features, this is the question.
>> Everybody asks the wrong question, it isn't a problem to be bipedal,
>> everybody is bipedal sometimes. Even elephants.
>
> My little boy, grow up:
> just google "aquarboreal".
>
>>>> No, it is just the case that ape hand is build like a hook, it has
>>>> limited extension. Knuckle-walking is just a developed stage, Orangutan
>>>> has to do fist walking since he doesn't have developed cushion pads.
>
>>> All Hominoidea had aquarboreal ancestors,
>>> but probably late-Miocene hominids swam more than pongids.
>
>>> In the 1980s, I already said:
>>> - humans never had KWing ancestors,
>>> - KWing evolved in parallel in Pan//Gorilla,
>>> nowadays this seems to be generally accepted.
>
>> First and foremost, all Hominoidea are orthograde.
>
> Of course: aquarboreal (aqua=water, arbor=tree):
> vertically wading+climbing in swamp forests.
> (mostly coastal?mangrove forests?)
>
>> This is reflected
>> in our imprinted backbone. This means that the surface wasn't
>> horizontal, but vertical. Vertical clinging.
>
> Yes, my boy: aquarboreal.

No, baby: cliffs.

On 2.12.2023. 14:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 2.12.2023. 13:08, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>> Op zaterdag 2 december 2023 om 12:35:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>> On 2.12.2023. 11:40, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>>> Op zaterdag 2 december 2023 om 00:38:38 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>> On 1.12.2023. 23:13, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>>>>> Op vrijdag 1 december 2023 om 22:35:23 UTC+1 schreef Mario
>>>>>> Petrinovic:
>>   ...
>>
>>>> Miocene Hominoidea (vs Catarrhini):
>>>> -- bipedal sensu google "aquarboreal"
>>>> -- complete tail loss
>>>> -- larger body size (hylobatids still long gestation)
>>>> -- very broad sternum (Latisternalia)
>>>> -- dorsal scapulas (lateral & upward arm movements)
>>>> -- shorter & centrally-placed lumbar spine - etc.
>>>> -Hylobatids are still BP (vertical + brachiation),
>>>> -Pongo had to evolve fist-walking to become QP again,
>>>> -Gorilla // Pan had to evolve knuckle-walking (in parallel).
>>>> Google "aquarboreal" or "GondwanaTalk Verhaegen English".
>> ____
>>
>>>>>>> everybody
>>>>>>> can be bipedal without problems (even in Oligocene, no problemo,
>>>>>>> dinosaurs were bipedal for god's sake). The question is, why we
>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>> be quadrupedal anymore? It cannot be that we didn't need
>>>>>>> quadrupedality.
>>>>>>> Quadrupedality has big advantages, of course, this is why
>>>>>>> everybody *is*
>>>>>>> quadrupedal, including apes. So, why we stopped to use it, this
>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>> I know the answer, of course, but nobody wants to listen.
>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/Mk-HHyGRSRw?si=QWJoQese_gOAlyi8
>>
>>>> :-DDD   You better ask: did ursids have aquarboreal ancestors? only
>>>> predom.wading?
>>
>>> It really doesn't matter, we have different pelvis, we have different
>>> backbone.
>>
>> Yes, that's what I said - can't you read??
>>
>>> You better ask, what is the reason for that?
>>> I told you, the key isn't in bipedality, chicken are bipedal, the
>>> question is why we have our unique features, this is the question.
>>> Everybody asks the wrong question, it isn't a problem to be bipedal,
>>> everybody is bipedal sometimes. Even elephants.
>>
>> My little boy, grow up:
>> just google "aquarboreal".
>>
>>>>> No, it is just the case that ape hand is build like a hook, it has
>>>>> limited extension. Knuckle-walking is just a developed stage,
>>>>> Orangutan
>>>>> has to do fist walking since he doesn't have developed cushion pads.
>>
>>>> All Hominoidea had aquarboreal ancestors,
>>>> but probably late-Miocene hominids swam more than pongids.
>>
>>>> In the 1980s, I already said:
>>>> - humans never had KWing ancestors,
>>>> - KWing evolved in parallel in Pan//Gorilla,
>>>> nowadays this seems to be generally accepted.
>>
>>> First and foremost, all Hominoidea are orthograde.
>>
>> Of course: aquarboreal (aqua=water, arbor=tree):
>> vertically wading+climbing in swamp forests.
>> (mostly coastal?mangrove forests?)
>>
>>> This is reflected
>>> in our imprinted backbone. This means that the surface wasn't
>>> horizontal, but vertical. Vertical clinging.
>>
>> Yes, my boy: aquarboreal.
>
>         No, baby: cliffs.

Actually, cliffs for orthogrady (apes) and seaside wading for our type
of bipedality (humans).

On 2.12.2023. 15:12, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op zaterdag 2 december 2023 om 14:55:45 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
> ...
>
>>>>>> Miocene Hominoidea (vs Catarrhini):
>>>>>> -- bipedal sensu google "aquarboreal"
>>>>>> -- complete tail loss
>>>>>> -- larger body size (hylobatids still long gestation)
>>>>>> -- very broad sternum (Latisternalia)
>>>>>> -- dorsal scapulas (lateral & upward arm movements)
>>>>>> -- shorter & centrally-placed lumbar spine - etc.
>>>>>> -Hylobatids are still BP (vertical + brachiation),
>>>>>> -Pongo had to evolve fist-walking to become QP again,
>>>>>> -Gorilla // Pan had to evolve knuckle-walking (in parallel).
>>>>>> Google "aquarboreal" or "GondwanaTalk Verhaegen English".
> ____
>
>>>>>>>>> everybody
>>>>>>>>> can be bipedal without problems (even in Oligocene, no problemo,
>>>>>>>>> dinosaurs were bipedal for god's sake). The question is, why we
>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>> be quadrupedal anymore? It cannot be that we didn't need
>>>>>>>>> quadrupedality.
>>>>>>>>> Quadrupedality has big advantages, of course, this is why
>>>>>>>>> everybody *is*
>>>>>>>>> quadrupedal, including apes. So, why we stopped to use it, this
>>>>>>>>> is the question.
>>>>>>>>> I know the answer, of course, but nobody wants to listen.
>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/Mk-HHyGRSRw?si=QWJoQese_gOAlyi8
>
>>>>>> :-DDD You better ask: did ursids have aquarboreal ancestors? only
>>>>>> predom.wading?
>
>>>>> It really doesn't matter, we have different pelvis, we have different
>>>>> backbone.
>
>>>> Yes, that's what I said - can't you read??
>
>>>>> You better ask, what is the reason for that?
>>>>> I told you, the key isn't in bipedality, chicken are bipedal, the
>>>>> question is why we have our unique features, this is the question.
>>>>> Everybody asks the wrong question, it isn't a problem to be bipedal,
>>>>> everybody is bipedal sometimes. Even elephants.
>
>>>> My little boy, grow up: just google "aquarboreal".
>
>
>
>>>>>>> No, it is just the case that ape hand is build like a hook, it has
>>>>>>> limited extension. Knuckle-walking is just a developed stage,
>>>>>>> Orangutan
>>>>>>> has to do fist walking since he doesn't have developed cushion pads.
>
>>>>>> All Hominoidea had aquarboreal ancestors,
>>>>>> but probably late-Miocene hominids swam more than pongids.
>>>>>> In the 1980s, I already said:
>>>>>> - humans never had KWing ancestors,
>>>>>> - KWing evolved in parallel in Pan//Gorilla,
>>>>>> nowadays this seems to be generally accepted.
>
>>>>> First and foremost, all Hominoidea are orthograde.
>
>>>> Of course: aquarboreal (aqua=water, arbor=tree):
>>>> vertically wading+climbing in swamp forests.
>>>> (mostly coastal?mangrove forests?)
>
>>>>> This is reflected
>>>>> in our imprinted backbone. This means that the surface wasn't
>>>>> horizontal, but vertical. Vertical clinging.
>
>>>> Yes, my boy: aquarboreal.
>
>>> No, baby: cliffs.
>
> :-DDD
>
>> Actually, cliffs for orthogrady (apes) and seaside wading for our type
>> of bipedality (humans).
>
> Grow up, Mario:
> Miocene Hominoidea were aquarboreal.

I don't want to ever grow up, grownups are stupid, :) .