https://www.facebook.com/groups/2166033293623124/posts/4074111876148580
"the only trace of [the Latin future tense] is one form, in one
language, with a different function, namely Spanish eres ‘you are’
(sing.), "

Fascinating! What about Portuguese 'es'? Is it an exact copy of the
Latin word, or also eris or eres with a later elided r?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eres#Spanish

On 2024-03-31, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

> https://www.facebook.com/groups/2166033293623124/posts/4074111876148580

(Not visible without a Facebook account.)

> "the only trace of [the Latin future tense] is one form, in one
> language, with a different function, namely Spanish eres ‘you are’
> (sing.), "
>
> Fascinating!

To the degree that the Latin verb system made it into the Romance
languages, Spanish has preserved the endings fairly well. The most
glaring difference is the loss of final -t. That of course turned
"es/est" into "es/es", so it is not surprising that a new form was
found to disambiguate second from third person. I thought "eres"
was influenced by the imperfect, but a borrowing from the future
tense is plausible.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Op 31/03/2024 om 22:25 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
> On 2024-03-31, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/2166033293623124/posts/4074111876148580
>
> (Not visible without a Facebook account.)
>
>> "the only trace of [the Latin future tense] is one form, in one
>> language, with a different function, namely Spanish eres ‘you are’
>> (sing.), "
>>
>> Fascinating!
>
> To the degree that the Latin verb system made it into the Romance
> languages, Spanish has preserved the endings fairly well. The most
> glaring difference is the loss of final -t. That of course turned
> "es/est" into "es/es", so it is not surprising that a new form was
> found to disambiguate second from third person. I thought "eres"
> was influenced by the imperfect, but a borrowing from the future
> tense is plausible.

I find those equally [un]likely as a simple duplication "eses" ...
"eres" through rhotacism or what's it called.

There's also the plural "sois" that's different, sounds like due to some
'regularisation' sumus, *sutis*, sunt?

--
guido wugi

On 2024-03-31, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

>> To the degree that the Latin verb system made it into the Romance
>> languages, Spanish has preserved the endings fairly well. The most
>> glaring difference is the loss of final -t. That of course turned
>> "es/est" into "es/es", so it is not surprising that a new form was
>> found to disambiguate second from third person. I thought "eres"
>> was influenced by the imperfect, but a borrowing from the future
>> tense is plausible.
>
> I find those equally [un]likely as a simple duplication "eses" ...

Any comparable examples of such a process in Spanish?

> "eres" through rhotacism or what's it called.

That's not a random process. *z > *r in Latin and Germanic are
regular sound shifts whose outcomes were subsequentely irregularized
by paradigmatic leveling; e.g. *honos/*honosis would regularly
become honos/honoris, and then the r was leveled into the nominative,
honor/honoris. I'm not aware of such a sound shift in Spanish.

> There's also the plural "sois" that's different, sounds like due to some
> 'regularisation' sumus, *sutis*, sunt?

Presumably. It's not limited to Iberian: Italian "siete", Catalan
"sou", Romanian "sunteți".

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Sun, 31 Mar 2024 11:21:23 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>https://www.facebook.com/groups/2166033293623124/posts/4074111876148580
>"the only trace of [the Latin future tense] is one form, in one
>language, with a different function, namely Spanish eres ‘you are’
>(sing.), "
>
>Fascinating! What about Portuguese 'es'? Is it an exact copy of the
>Latin word, or also eris or eres with a later elided r?
>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eres#Spanish

I meant és, of course, in the correct spelling. Second person singular
of the verb 'ser'. Qual a etimologia?
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Sun, 31 Mar 2024 11:21:23 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:
>
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/2166033293623124/posts/4074111876148580
>> "the only trace of [the Latin future tense] is one form, in one
>> language, with a different function, namely Spanish eres ‘you are’
>> (sing.), "
>>
>> Fascinating! What about Portuguese 'es'? Is it an exact copy of the
>> Latin word, or also eris or eres with a later elided r?
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eres#Spanish
>
> I meant és, of course, in the correct spelling. Second person singular
> of the verb 'ser'. Qual a etimologia?

I find it complicated that it would be anything other than the normal
evolution of latin 'es', but I haven't read on the subject.

Sat, 6 Apr 2024 13:29:17 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
<no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Sun, 31 Mar 2024 11:21:23 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
>> scribeva:
>>
>>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/2166033293623124/posts/4074111876148580
>>> "the only trace of [the Latin future tense] is one form, in one
>>> language, with a different function, namely Spanish eres ‘you are’
>>> (sing.), "
>>>
>>> Fascinating! What about Portuguese 'es'? Is it an exact copy of the
>>> Latin word, or also eris or eres with a later elided r?
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eres#Spanish
>>
>> I meant és, of course, in the correct spelling. Second person singular
>> of the verb 'ser'. Qual a etimologia?
>
>I find it complicated that it would be anything other than the normal
>evolution of latin 'es', but I haven't read on the subject.

How would ‘es’ keep its s, when ‘est’ lost the t AND the s?
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On 2024-04-07, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

[Portuguese "és"]
>>I find it complicated that it would be anything other than the normal
>>evolution of latin 'es', but I haven't read on the subject.
>
> How would ‘es’ keep its s,

The same way other second person forms keep their -s:
Final -s is conserved from Latin to Portuguese.

> when ‘est’ lost the t AND the s?

Not a regular sound change. Given it's extremely high frequency,
an irregular reduction isn't that surprising. And again, the 2./3.
person clash after regular loss of -t had to be resolved in some
way.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Sun, 7 Apr 2024 18:57:54 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

>On 2024-04-07, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>[Portuguese "és"]
>>>I find it complicated that it would be anything other than the normal
>>>evolution of latin 'es', but I haven't read on the subject.
>>
>> How would ‘es’ keep its s,
>
>The same way other second person forms keep their -s:
>Final -s is conserved from Latin to Portuguese.
>
>> when ‘est’ lost the t AND the s?
>
>Not a regular sound change. Given it's extremely high frequency,
>an irregular reduction isn't that surprising. And again, the 2./3.
>person clash after regular loss of -t had to be resolved in some
>way.

Makes sense.