so it seems PTD liked the SH edition by W. S. Baring-Gould

but he thought the Re-ordering was ill-conceived.

i tend to agree with that.

Oxford SH reordered REDH and IDEN.
------ i don't like the reordering, but it much less bothersome!

____________________________________________________________
Peter T. Daniels -- Apr 8, 2015, 10:10:07 AM

Is that the recent one by a youngish American, which was sold in 3
separate volumes over several years and hasn't yet turned up in the
secondhand stores? Or the classic by W. S. Baring-Gould?

_______________________________________________________Cooee!
Peter T. Daniels -- Mar 24, 2019, 9:53:20 AM

It's not impossible that the single occurrence in a Sherlock Holmes
story brought it to daily use in at least some parts of Britain --
Holmes was immensely popular. The X-Men of his day (and it only took one
of him).

________________________________________________________________
Peter T. Daniels -- Apr 7, 2019, 11:19:24 AM

On Sunday, April 7, 2019 at 10:19:11 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 07/04/19 20:49, Janet wrote:
>
> > Patricia Cornwell's clumsy use of language is damaging your
> > understanding and use of English.
>
> I've been wondering about that. Clearly Cornwell's prose is not admired
> by AUE regulars. But should we apply native-language standards when the
> reader is not a native speaker? Perhaps her very lack of elegance makes
> her suitable reading for someone whose command of English is lower than
> ours.
>
> I can't answer that question because I don't read much of that genre. I
> can make an analogy with science fiction, though, a genre where I have a
> large collection of books. In the SF world Isaac Asimov is occasionally
> criticised because he is not a stylist. He has a "plain language" style
> of writing. But it's that very quality that would prompt me to recommend
> him to a beginner, including a beginner who has English as a second
> language.

Asimov's fiction-writing was deadly -- his novels were un-rereadable,
because they existed solely for the plot. There was no subtlety at all,
no interest in "character," let alone "character development."

It may be the same characteristics that made his science writing so
good. He was superb at explaining.

It may also be those characteristics that deterred me from trying the
history books -- or maybe it was from reading the Guides to the Bible
and to Shakespeare.

In each case, he was interested in nothing but
explaining the allusions to bygone eras and phenomena.

The very organization of the Shakespeare book into the "historical"
order in which the action of each play took place was bizarre

-- quite possibly inspired by Baring-Gould's Annotated Sherlock
Holmes, which devotes a very tedious amount of space to determining the
exact dates on which each story took place.

Was PTD more of a Presence in Sci.Lang or in AUE?

Was he a BIG FISH in other groups?

When did he come to Usenet?

>
> so it seems  PTD liked the SH edition by  W. S. Baring-Gould
>
>            but he thought the Re-ordering was ill-conceived.
>
>                                         i tend to agree with that.
>
> Oxford SH reordered REDH and IDEN.
>        ------ i don't like the reordering, but it much less bothersome!
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Peter T. Daniels   --  Apr 8, 2015, 10:10:07 AM
>
> Is that the recent one by a youngish American, which was sold in 3
> separate volumes over several years and hasn't yet turned up in the
> secondhand stores?      Or the classic by W. S. Baring-Gould?
>
>
> _______________________________________________________Cooee!
> Peter T. Daniels  --  Mar 24, 2019, 9:53:20 AM
>
> It's not impossible that the single occurrence in a Sherlock Holmes
> story brought it to daily use in at least some parts of Britain --
> Holmes was immensely popular. The X-Men of his day (and it only took one
> of him).
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Peter T. Daniels   --   Apr 7, 2019, 11:19:24 AM
>
> On Sunday, April 7, 2019 at 10:19:11 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 07/04/19 20:49, Janet wrote:
> >
> > > Patricia Cornwell's clumsy use of language is damaging your
> > > understanding and use of English.
> >
> > I've been wondering about that. Clearly Cornwell's prose is not admired
> > by AUE regulars. But should we apply native-language standards when the
> > reader is not a native speaker? Perhaps her very lack of elegance makes
> > her suitable reading for someone whose command of English is lower than
> > ours.
> >
> > I can't answer that question because I don't read much of that genre. I
> > can make an analogy with science fiction, though, a genre where I have a
> > large collection of books. In the SF world Isaac Asimov is occasionally
> > criticised because he is not a stylist. He has a "plain language" style
> > of writing. But it's that very quality that would prompt me to recommend
> > him to a beginner, including a beginner who has English as a second
> > language.
>
>
>
> Asimov's fiction-writing was deadly -- his novels were un-rereadable,
> because they existed solely for the plot. There was no subtlety at all,
> no interest in "character," let alone "character development."
>
> It may be the same characteristics that made his science writing so
> good.     He was superb at explaining.
>
> It may also be those characteristics that deterred me from trying the
> history books -- or maybe it was from reading the Guides to the Bible
> and to Shakespeare.
>
> In each case, he was interested in nothing but
> explaining the allusions to bygone eras and phenomena.
>
> The very organization of the Shakespeare book into the "historical"
> order in which the action of each play took place was bizarre
>
>  -- quite possibly inspired by Baring-Gould's Annotated Sherlock
> Holmes, which devotes a very tedious amount of space to determining the
> exact dates on which each story took place.
>

Ar an dara lá déag de mí Aibreán, scríobh HenHanna:

> Was PTD more of a Presence in Sci.Lang or in AUE?

I was never active in alt.usage.english so I can’t comment.

> Was he a BIG FISH in other groups?
>
> When did he come to Usenet?

Google Group suggests about 1997.

He doesn’t appear to be active anymore, not a great use of your time to obsess
about him.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

[rec.puzzles deleted, since it seems to be irrelevant to the topic. But
alt.english.usage added, on the grounds that some of the people there
remember the good old days.]

On 13/04/24 18:34, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
> Ar an dara lá déag de mí Aibreán, scríobh HenHanna:

I'm still struggling with the Irish number system (second day ten =
12th), but I guess I'll get used to it eventually.

>> Was PTD more of a Presence in Sci.Lang or in AUE?
>
> I was never active in alt.usage.english so I can’t comment.
>
>> Was he a BIG FISH in other groups?
>>
>> When did he come to Usenet?
>
> Google Group suggests about 1997.
>
> He doesn’t appear to be active anymore, not a great use of your time
> to obsess about him.

I'm always a little nervous of responding to a HenHanna question, but as
the oldest living member of AUE I'd better give an answer.

PTD originally was an inhabitant of sci.lang, but he appeared in AUE via
crossposts complaining about crossposts from AUE to sci.lang. Over time
he appeared more and more often in AUE, possibly because sci.lang seemed
to be in its death throes. (Not his fault, I gather.) He was a bit of a
misfit in AUE because he got into so many disputes, usually because of
an inability to admit when he was wrong.

Most recently, he disappeared from all newsgroups, possibly because he
was one of the many who were unable to adapt to the disappearance of
Google Groups from Usenet. But this is not certain, because he
disappeared some time before Google pulled the plug.

The BIG FISH comment reminds me of a Master's thesis, I forget where,
that analysed roles of people in newsgroups. It caused great amusement
here (AUE) because it so badly miscategorised the roles of the regulars. In
particular, it concluded that PTD was the most-respected of the AUE
regulars, because of the many responses to him. It's true that he did
start the most arguments.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan about PTD:

> Most recently, he disappeared from all newsgroups,
> possibly because he was one of the many who were unable to
> adapt to the disappearance of Google Groups from Usenet.

Anybody tried to e-mail those missing in action with a
suggestion to access Usenet via <https://news.novabbs.org/>
and perhaps instructions for setting up a newsreader with a
list of free Usenet servers (<https://sybershock.com/#usenet>)?
I believe this is a grammatical colloquial question, with
the initial `Have' omitted, is it not?

> The BIG FISH comment reminds me of a Master's thesis, I
> forget where, that analysed roles of people in newsgroups.
> It caused great amusement here (AUE) because it so badly
> miscategorised the roles of the regulars. In particular,
> it concluded that PTD was the most-respected of the AUE
> regulars, because of the many responses to him. It's true
> that he did start the most arguments.

PTD has proven that one need neither respect nor authority
to keep a lively discussion. Notoriety with occasional
nastiness is just as good, if not better.

For me, the most respected regular of all time was Don
Phillipson, supposedly known later as Don P. When once he
replied to a post of mine persoanlly via e-mail I felt as if
a god has descended from a throne. I love you, Don.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

I wrote:

> When once he replied to a post of mine persoanlly via
> e-mail I felt as if a god has descended from a throne.

`had'.

Peter Moylan wrote:

> [rec.puzzles deleted, since it seems to be irrelevant to the topic. But
> alt.english.usage added, on the grounds that some of the people there
> remember the good old days.]

> On 13/04/24 18:34, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
>> Ar an dara lá déag de mí Aibreán, scríobh HenHanna:

> I'm still struggling with the Irish number system (second day ten =
> 12th), but I guess I'll get used to it eventually.

>>> Was PTD more of a Presence in Sci.Lang or in AUE?
>>
>> I was never active in alt.usage.english so I can’t comment.
>>
>>> Was he a BIG FISH in other groups?
>>>
>>> When did he come to Usenet?
>>
>> Google Group suggests about 1997.
>>
>> He doesn’t appear to be active anymore, not a great use of your time
>> to obsess about him.

> I'm always a little nervous of responding to a HenHanna question, but as
> the oldest living member of AUE I'd better give an answer.

> PTD originally was an inhabitant of sci.lang, but he appeared in AUE via
> crossposts complaining about crossposts from AUE to sci.lang. Over time
> he appeared more and more often in AUE, possibly because sci.lang seemed
> to be in its death throes. (Not his fault, I gather.) He was a bit of a
> misfit in AUE because he got into so many disputes, usually because of
> an inability to admit when he was wrong.

And his astonishing ability to be wrong or misleading so often on so
many topics. Eventually a lot of people, including me, stopped
correcting him.

> Most recently, he disappeared from all newsgroups, possibly because he
> was one of the many who were unable to adapt to the disappearance of
> Google Groups from Usenet. But this is not certain, because he
> disappeared some time before Google pulled the plug.
...

He said GG was giving him frustrating Captchas with images, which it
wasn't giving me.

--
Jerry Friedman

Anton Shepelev wrote:

> Peter Moylan about PTD:

>> Most recently, he disappeared from all newsgroups,
>> possibly because he was one of the many who were unable to
>> adapt to the disappearance of Google Groups from Usenet.

> Anybody tried to e-mail those missing in action with a
> suggestion to access Usenet via <https://news.novabbs.org/>
> and perhaps instructions for setting up a newsreader with a
> list of free Usenet servers (<https://sybershock.com/#usenet>)?
> I believe this is a grammatical colloquial question, with
> the initial `Have' omitted, is it not?
,,,

Yes, though in my opinion it doesn't go well with the formal
tone of the rest of your post.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 15:52:57 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
(jerryfriedman) wrote:

>Peter Moylan wrote:
>

>> PTD originally was an inhabitant of sci.lang, but he appeared in AUE via
>> crossposts complaining about crossposts from AUE to sci.lang. Over time
>> he appeared more and more often in AUE, possibly because sci.lang seemed
>> to be in its death throes. (Not his fault, I gather.) He was a bit of a
>> misfit in AUE because he got into so many disputes, usually because of
>> an inability to admit when he was wrong.

I would say, "inability to recognize when he was wrong."

>
>And his astonishing ability to be wrong or misleading so often on so
>many topics. Eventually a lot of people, including me, stopped
>correcting him.

On the other hand, I ignored the language threads and many
others. There were other things of occasional interest.

Eventually, he and I agreed on a number of political observations,
and I was pleased with his recollection of political trivia relevant
to sins of Trump et al. He had-read a lot, with good recall.

When I mentioned having read in Wiki, spring of 2016 (a few years
earlier), that Trump as a 13-year-old had been sent to his
military academy/ boarding school (a 1959 alternative to Juvenile
Detention) after being deemed an incorrigible offender, PTD said
he had never read that. I accepted his authority: either I had read
a short-lived libel, or this bit of history has been well-scrubbed.

>

--
Rich Ulrich

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:45:28 -0400, Rich Ulrich
<rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 15:52:57 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
>(jerryfriedman) wrote:
>
>>Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>
>>> PTD originally was an inhabitant of sci.lang, but he appeared in AUE via
>>> crossposts complaining about crossposts from AUE to sci.lang. Over time
>>> he appeared more and more often in AUE, possibly because sci.lang seemed
>>> to be in its death throes. (Not his fault, I gather.) He was a bit of a
>>> misfit in AUE because he got into so many disputes, usually because of
>>> an inability to admit when he was wrong.
>
>I would say, "inability to recognize when he was wrong."
>
>>
>>And his astonishing ability to be wrong or misleading so often on so
>>many topics. Eventually a lot of people, including me, stopped
>>correcting him.
>
>On the other hand, I ignored the language threads and many
>others. There were other things of occasional interest.
>
>Eventually, he and I agreed on a number of political observations,
>and I was pleased with his recollection of political trivia relevant
>to sins of Trump et al. He had-read a lot, with good recall.
>
>When I mentioned having read in Wiki, spring of 2016 (a few years
>earlier), that Trump as a 13-year-old had been sent to his
>military academy/ boarding school (a 1959 alternative to Juvenile
>Detention) after being deemed an incorrigible offender, PTD said
>he had never read that. I accepted his authority: either I had read
>a short-lived libel, or this bit of history has been well-scrubbed.
>
Trump did attend New York Military Academy. When Trump was 13, his
father sent him there, though. When someone is sent to Juvenile
Detention, it is at a court order. In DJT's case, it was a family
decision, not by court order. What prompted the family decision,
though, is not stated.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

I wrote:

> Anybody tried to e-mail those missing in action with a
> suggestion to access Usenet via
> <https://news.novabbs.org/>

The Nova BBS administrator warns me that the .org site may
be soon closed, and the correct one is <www.novabbs.com>.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

On 13/04/24 23:52, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Peter Moylan about PTD:
>
>> Most recently, he disappeared from all newsgroups, possibly because
>> he was one of the many who were unable to adapt to the
>> disappearance of Google Groups from Usenet.
>
> Anybody tried to e-mail those missing in action with a suggestion to
> access Usenet via <https://news.novabbs.org/> and perhaps
> instructions for setting up a newsreader with a list of free Usenet
> servers (<https://sybershock.com/#usenet>)?

Before the transition there were plenty of suggestions, at least in AUE,
for news servers and newsreader software, and several people offered to
help. It seemed, though, that many of the Google Groups users viewed
those suggestions as being in the "too hard" category, and they didn't
try. Some did transition, of course, but not a great many.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 14/04/24 06:45, Rich Ulrich wrote:

> When I mentioned having read in Wiki, spring of 2016 (a few years
> earlier), that Trump as a 13-year-old had been sent to his military
> academy/ boarding school (a 1959 alternative to Juvenile Detention)
> after being deemed an incorrigible offender, PTD said he had never
> read that. I accepted his authority: either I had read a short-lived
> libel, or this bit of history has been well-scrubbed.

That part is well documented, including on Wikipedia, and Trump himself
has said that he was a high achiever (he would say that, wouldn't he?)
at the military academy. The part that he disputes is the reason for his
being sent there. A book written by his niece says that his family
decided to send him there because he was a bully and an uncontrollable
adolescent who didn't fit into a normal school.

It's not surprising that PTD didn't know that at the time, because it
took some time for the story to come out.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 11:02:29 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 14/04/24 06:45, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>
>> When I mentioned having read in Wiki, spring of 2016 (a few years
>> earlier), that Trump as a 13-year-old had been sent to his military
>> academy/ boarding school (a 1959 alternative to Juvenile Detention)
>> after being deemed an incorrigible offender, PTD said he had never
>> read that. I accepted his authority: either I had read a short-lived
>> libel, or this bit of history has been well-scrubbed.
>
>That part is well documented, including on Wikipedia, and Trump himself
>has said that he was a high achiever (he would say that, wouldn't he?)
>at the military academy. The part that he disputes is the reason for his
>being sent there. A book written by his niece says that his family
>decided to send him there because he was a bully and an uncontrollable
>adolescent who didn't fit into a normal school.
>
>It's not surprising that PTD didn't know that at the time, because it
>took some time for the story to come out.

I see that Mary Trump's book was out in 2020. Your explanation
is consistent with PDT usually knowing the trivia but missing this.

That leaves unanswered the question of what served as the
source of the 2016 Wiki article. Much detail is in the article that
Tony cites, which is from January, 2016.

That one also does not mention bully and uncontrollable or
mention the Juvie alternative. "Juvie" is the libel that may have
been scrubbed.

--
Rich Ulrich

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 17:35:44 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:45:28 -0400, Rich Ulrich
><rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 15:52:57 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
>>(jerryfriedman) wrote:
>>
>>>Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>> PTD originally was an inhabitant of sci.lang, but he appeared in AUE via
>>>> crossposts complaining about crossposts from AUE to sci.lang. Over time
>>>> he appeared more and more often in AUE, possibly because sci.lang seemed
>>>> to be in its death throes. (Not his fault, I gather.) He was a bit of a
>>>> misfit in AUE because he got into so many disputes, usually because of
>>>> an inability to admit when he was wrong.
>>
>>I would say, "inability to recognize when he was wrong."
>>
>>>
>>>And his astonishing ability to be wrong or misleading so often on so
>>>many topics. Eventually a lot of people, including me, stopped
>>>correcting him.
>>
>>On the other hand, I ignored the language threads and many
>>others. There were other things of occasional interest.
>>
>>Eventually, he and I agreed on a number of political observations,
>>and I was pleased with his recollection of political trivia relevant
>>to sins of Trump et al. He had-read a lot, with good recall.
>>
>>When I mentioned having read in Wiki, spring of 2016 (a few years
>>earlier), that Trump as a 13-year-old had been sent to his
>>military academy/ boarding school (a 1959 alternative to Juvenile
>>Detention) after being deemed an incorrigible offender, PTD said
>>he had never read that. I accepted his authority: either I had read
>>a short-lived libel, or this bit of history has been well-scrubbed.
>>
>Trump did attend New York Military Academy. When Trump was 13, his
>father sent him there, though. When someone is sent to Juvenile
>Detention, it is at a court order. In DJT's case, it was a family
>decision, not by court order. What prompted the family decision,
>though, is not stated.
>
>
>
>https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html
>

That was published in 2016, and could have been the source
of most of what I read a few months later.

Trump was sent to the Academy in 1959. My understanding of
the 1960s was that courts let charges drop when suitable
alternative actions were taken. So a friend of a friend in 1969
joined the Coast Guard and he was not prosecuted for dealing
pot. (in Austin, Texas, where marijuana sentences were LONG).
(It was a few years after that when the U.S. military became a
bit negative about that sort of referral.)

Another acquaintance who sold a hit of acid to a federal agent
cut off his long hair and got a job with the state highway
department; and charges were dropped.

It was earlier, like 1965, when a 13-year-old fellow in my home
town was threatened with the choice of juvie or military academy --
that could have been a threat generated by his family rather than
a court.

What I read in 2016-Wiki did mention juvie. I THINK it was
mentioned as a court-based threat, rather than family threat
used for persuasion. My understanding of the time is that a
court would have happily -- and wisely -- sent a rich kid to a
strict boarding school rather than to Juvie. IIRC, his hitting
a teacher was the immediate cause of the decision. Previous
bullying only had him hitting students.

--
Rich Ulrich