On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 9:35:12 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 4:27:07 PM UTC-7, me wrote:
> > Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> > https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
> I am STILL waiting for Boobie to post a link to the video that he has referred to (and criticized me about!).
>
> Tom
https://youtu.be/d3Jkd3ce5lo

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
> Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746

Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.

This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.

Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.

FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."

Walt Connelly

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
> > Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> > https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
> Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
>
> This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.
>
> Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.
>
> FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
>
> Walt Connelly
Walt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP

Walt, are you talking about those deadly Assault Pawnees? You know, the
black ones with the 300 round magazine clips?

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 06:25, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> kay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all.

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 2:13:03 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Walt, are you talking about those deadly Assault Pawnees? You know, the
> black ones with the 300 round magazine clips?
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 5/26/23 06:25, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > kay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all.

Dan, yes definitely those Assault Pawnees need to be banned. I had one attack me and I barely got away with my life and those "magazine clips," no one needs a "magazine clip."

Seriously though, it's nice to see opportunity for young pilots, when I got my commercial there was not much available. It's all a matter of timing and hitting at the right time. Towing anything is dangerous, I just hope these young people can live long enough to get the experience it takes to keep them alive.

Walt

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:44:15 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
> > > Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> > > https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
> > Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
> >
> > This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.
> >
> > Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.
> >
> > FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> Walt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP

Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless you are 6'6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.

Walt Connelly

My first tail dragger was an L-19 Bird Dog with hydraulic retractable
skis based at Ft. Wainwright, Fairbanks, Alaska in 1974. There was no
tail wheel endorsement at the time and my checkout was three trips
around the pattern, 2 in the snow with the skis down, and one on the
runway with the skis up.

They were always looking for tuggies at TSA in Texas so it was a
briefing and hook up a glider. I don't recall any dual instruction in
towing, but it was a long time ago. I don't have a towing endorsement,
either but I don't think that existed, either.

Nowadays insurance companies want lots of tail dragger time before
covering an airplane or pilot. I wonder how the banner towing companies
handle that.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 16:40, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 2:13:03 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Walt, are you talking about those deadly Assault Pawnees? You know, the
>> black ones with the 300 round magazine clips?
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>> On 5/26/23 06:25, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
>>> kay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all.
>
> Dan, yes definitely those Assault Pawnees need to be banned. I had one attack me and I barely got away with my life and those "magazine clips," no one needs a "magazine clip."
>
> Seriously though, it's nice to see opportunity for young pilots, when I got my commercial there was not much available. It's all a matter of timing and hitting at the right time. Towing anything is dangerous, I just hope these young people can live long enough to get the experience it takes to keep them alive.
>
> Walt

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 6:33:04 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:44:15 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
> > > > Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> > > > https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
> > > Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
> > >
> > > This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.
> > >
> > > Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.
> > >
> > > FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > Walt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
> Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless you are 6'6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.
>
> Walt Connelly
They did away with the 20 round magazine by the time I was in the infantry in the 80’s. The 30 round magazine was no issue at all going prone with. I fired thousands of rounds with them. Very few issues as long as you cleaned the M16 daily and kept it lubed.

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 1:44:48 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 6:33:04 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:44:15 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
> > > > > Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> > > > > https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
> > > > Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
> > > >
> > > > This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.
> > > >
> > > > Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.
> > > >
> > > > FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
> > > >
> > > > Walt Connelly
> > > Walt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
> > Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless you are 6'6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> They did away with the 20 round magazine by the time I was in the infantry in the 80’s. The 30 round magazine was no issue at all going prone with. I fired thousands of rounds with them. Very few issues as long as you cleaned the M16 daily and kept it lubed.

When the M16 was initially issued in Nam the geniuses (officers who knew every f--king thing) sent them without cleaning kits, said they were not necessary. These same geniuses did away with the chrome plating of the barrels which Stoner (the designer) said was necessary, this caused a lot of malfunctions and resulted in a lot of dead GIs but of course the officers knew every f00kihng thing. Issues with a change in the type of gunpowder used also created problems, but again, saving money and decisions by geniuses who knew everything became problematic. If you are shorter in stature a 30 round mag will not allow you to maintain a low profile to the ground, sure it can be done but there is no argument that you are a higher target. I'll take low anyway. The issues learned in the Nam kept a lot of personnel alive in the years to come.

A youngster from my neighborhood received an Army commission. I told him to find a good mid level NCO, bury your head up his ass for a year and you might learn something.

Walt Connelly

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 1:44:48 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 6:33:04 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:44:15 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
> > > > > > Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> > > > > > https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
> > > > > Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
> > > > >
> > > > > This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.
> > > > >
> > > > > FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
> > > > >
> > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > Walt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
> > > Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless you are 6'6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > They did away with the 20 round magazine by the time I was in the infantry in the 80’s. The 30 round magazine was no issue at all going prone with. I fired thousands of rounds with them. Very few issues as long as you cleaned the M16 daily and kept it lubed.
> When the M16 was initially issued in Nam the geniuses (officers who knew every f--king thing) sent them without cleaning kits, said they were not necessary. These same geniuses did away with the chrome plating of the barrels which Stoner (the designer) said was necessary, this caused a lot of malfunctions and resulted in a lot of dead GIs but of course the officers knew every f00kihng thing. Issues with a change in the type of gunpowder used also created problems, but again, saving money and decisions by geniuses who knew everything became problematic. If you are shorter in stature a 30 round mag will not allow you to maintain a low profile to the ground, sure it can be done but there is no argument that you are a higher target. I'll take low anyway. The issues learned in the Nam kept a lot of personnel alive in the years to come.
>
> A youngster from my neighborhood received an Army commission. I told him to find a good mid level NCO, bury your head up his ass for a year and you might learn something.
>
> Walt Connelly
Well I suspect the Army learned a few things in Viet Nam. Not saying your 20 round magazine isn’t a valid point. I just never heard a complaint about the 30 round magazine during my infantry stint. Like not one. It never came up. Our standard load out was 210 rounds in 7-30 round magazines. Plus maybe some more in your pack. We loaded the magazines to their full capacity of 30 rounds. Never heard of a magazine failure. Of course we weren’t operating in a humid climate. All of our weapons were in good shape and they were pretty adamant on cleaning from day one.

I take it you were a pilot. I spent a number of years in the infantry. We did lots of training with multiple rounds going down range. By lucky coincidence I missed out on all the fun in the Middle East. Both of my old units rotated over there.

Charlie

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 2:59:23 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 1:44:48 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 6:33:04 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:44:15 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
> > > > > > > Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
> > > > > > > https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
> > > > > > Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > Walt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
> > > > Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless you are 6'6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.
> > > >
> > > > Walt Connelly
> > > They did away with the 20 round magazine by the time I was in the infantry in the 80’s. The 30 round magazine was no issue at all going prone with. I fired thousands of rounds with them. Very few issues as long as you cleaned the M16 daily and kept it lubed.
> > When the M16 was initially issued in Nam the geniuses (officers who knew every f--king thing) sent them without cleaning kits, said they were not necessary. These same geniuses did away with the chrome plating of the barrels which Stoner (the designer) said was necessary, this caused a lot of malfunctions and resulted in a lot of dead GIs but of course the officers knew every f00kihng thing. Issues with a change in the type of gunpowder used also created problems, but again, saving money and decisions by geniuses who knew everything became problematic. If you are shorter in stature a 30 round mag will not allow you to maintain a low profile to the ground, sure it can be done but there is no argument that you are a higher target. I'll take low anyway. The issues learned in the Nam kept a lot of personnel alive in the years to come.
> >
> > A youngster from my neighborhood received an Army commission. I told him to find a good mid level NCO, bury your head up his ass for a year and you might learn something.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> Well I suspect the Army learned a few things in Viet Nam. Not saying your 20 round magazine isn’t a valid point. I just never heard a complaint about the 30 round magazine during my infantry stint. Like not one. It never came up. Our standard load out was 210 rounds in 7-30 round magazines.. Plus maybe some more in your pack. We loaded the magazines to their full capacity of 30 rounds. Never heard of a magazine failure. Of course we weren’t operating in a humid climate. All of our weapons were in good shape and they were pretty adamant on cleaning from day one.
>
> I take it you were a pilot. I spent a number of years in the infantry. We did lots of training with multiple rounds going down range. By lucky coincidence I missed out on all the fun in the Middle East. Both of my old units rotated over there.
>
> Charlie
Not a pilot, membership in the club required a college degree. I had the grades, test scores but not the money for college and the draft would grab you if weren't in college in 1968. I enlisted, was combat aircrew on a number of different platforms with over 1000 hours of combat mission time in one year. A college degree does not predict how well one will learn to fly or much else. I worked full time, went to school full time and had a commercial certificate before I had a degree. Had hoped to go back in but was too old for pilot/nav by the time I finished my degree.

Vietnam was a terrible place to learn the problems associated with ignoring the manufacturers recommendations. A cleaning kit costs money, chrome barrels cost money, gotta save money, to hell with the lives lost seemed to be the order of the day. Guys would write home and have mom or dad send a .22 cleaning kit. Magazine design improved over the years, I have Nam era mags and the current mags, newer ones are better but out of habit I still load short of the max.

Walt Connelly