On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:20:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Carris wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 6:09:01 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 2:16:35 PM UTC-7, miltonpilot JLH wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 11:49:40 AM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > On 8/14/2023 2:03 PM, kinsell wrote:
> > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > RFI problems in a modern cockpit are common, but this sounds unusual, in
> > > > > that it only happens when audio is generated from the vario. Perhaps
> > > > > they use square waves to generate the tones, and the harmonics are bad
> > > > > enough to cause the interference. If an external speaker is used, I'd
> > > > > disconnect the speaker as an experiment and see if the problem goes
> > > > > away. If so, it may be possible to just shield the speaker wires.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Dave
> > > > The XCvario audio uses a "class D" amplifier so yes it's a square wave.
> > > > The speaker is internal, although there is a jack for an external
> > > > speaker, can try using that. And the XCvario case is plastic, I
> > > > believe, so adding shielding around it may help. Note that the XCvario
> > > > has an internal WiFi/Bluetooth antenna, if you fully shield it it would
> > > > not be able to communicate wirelessly, e.g., to XCsoar. If you only
> > > > need the ability to update its software occasionally, via WiFi, then
> > > > make the shielding removable? That said, you probably won't shield the
> > > > front of the vario, so there will still be radio waves going through the
> > > > front (heading towards the glider's tail), for better or worse. In most
> > > > gliders the communications radio antenna is in the tail, so maybe it
> > > > will still receive the interference?
> > > >
> > > > Some radios used in gliders have adjustable squelch, so if the
> > > > interfering noise is not too strong, it only needs a bit of adjustment
> > > > to stop the squelch breaking, while normal communications would still
> > > > work. Alas, some other radio models have no squelch adjustment, or the
> > > > adjustment is inside the radio's case, difficult to reach.
> > > Steve, Mark, JJ, Uli, Dave and Moshe: Thank you all for your suggestions. I am going to twist the power and return wires. The speaker in the XCVario is internal so I can't do anything about that. The ferrites sound like a good idea also. Power and grounding is already single point and has been since I bought the glider used 6 years ago. All of the instruments have worked perfectly until the Ilec died and I installed the XCVario. I tried complaining to the vario manufacturer and their reply was basically "...we no of no one having this experience ...".
> > >
> > > I do not have an SN-10 or Cambridge GPS in my glider. I have already moved wiring around to keep all of it as far away from the radio and the radio antenna as possible.
> > >
> > > Wrapping the vario with bronze mesh sounds like a good idea. I don't use XCSoar and, as mentioned, the only other reason I might have for needing the WiFi is for a software update.
> > >
> > > My Becker radio has an automatic squelch so there's nothing I can do about that.
> > >
> > > Thanks again for the help guys. I'll be back at the gliderport this coming weekend and will hopefully have some good news to share by this time next week.
> > >
> > > JLH/H4
> > I would remove the vario from the glider and set it up on a table far removed from any other electrical device. Hook up a power source (battery) and test it with a handheld radio close by. Document the test with a short video. If the vario breaks squelch send the video to the manufacturer and ask the them to perform the same test and report back. Try the test with and w/o ferrite beads on the power lines.
> >
> > This vario has probably not passed US FCC certification required of all consumer electronics. Ask the manufacturer for their FCC certification number. If they don't have it or refuse to supply it they are breaking US law. You can quickly determine this yourself by examining the vario for any FCC ID which they are required to put on the product. There are similar requirements in the EU.
> >
> > Tom 2G
> This vario has CE certification. If I am not mistaken, and I don't think I am, CE certification is accepted by the USA.
>
> I am using one and there is no problem what so ever. It is a great little variometer.
>
> Mike

CE is a broad CLAIM by the manufacturer that the product meets all requisite regulatory requirements; an FCC ID means that the product has actually been CERTIFIED by a testing laboratory and the test results are available for public inspection. Your experiences are not the same as having it tested at a certified laboratory using calibrated test equipment (you may have a less sensitive radio).

Tom 2G

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 8:55:44 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:20:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Carris wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 6:09:01 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 2:16:35 PM UTC-7, miltonpilot JLH wrote:
> > > > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 11:49:40 AM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > > On 8/14/2023 2:03 PM, kinsell wrote:
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > RFI problems in a modern cockpit are common, but this sounds unusual, in
> > > > > > that it only happens when audio is generated from the vario. Perhaps
> > > > > > they use square waves to generate the tones, and the harmonics are bad
> > > > > > enough to cause the interference. If an external speaker is used, I'd
> > > > > > disconnect the speaker as an experiment and see if the problem goes
> > > > > > away. If so, it may be possible to just shield the speaker wires.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Dave
> > > > > The XCvario audio uses a "class D" amplifier so yes it's a square wave.
> > > > > The speaker is internal, although there is a jack for an external
> > > > > speaker, can try using that. And the XCvario case is plastic, I
> > > > > believe, so adding shielding around it may help. Note that the XCvario
> > > > > has an internal WiFi/Bluetooth antenna, if you fully shield it it would
> > > > > not be able to communicate wirelessly, e.g., to XCsoar. If you only
> > > > > need the ability to update its software occasionally, via WiFi, then
> > > > > make the shielding removable? That said, you probably won't shield the
> > > > > front of the vario, so there will still be radio waves going through the
> > > > > front (heading towards the glider's tail), for better or worse. In most
> > > > > gliders the communications radio antenna is in the tail, so maybe it
> > > > > will still receive the interference?
> > > > >
> > > > > Some radios used in gliders have adjustable squelch, so if the
> > > > > interfering noise is not too strong, it only needs a bit of adjustment
> > > > > to stop the squelch breaking, while normal communications would still
> > > > > work. Alas, some other radio models have no squelch adjustment, or the
> > > > > adjustment is inside the radio's case, difficult to reach.
> > > > Steve, Mark, JJ, Uli, Dave and Moshe: Thank you all for your suggestions. I am going to twist the power and return wires. The speaker in the XCVario is internal so I can't do anything about that. The ferrites sound like a good idea also. Power and grounding is already single point and has been since I bought the glider used 6 years ago. All of the instruments have worked perfectly until the Ilec died and I installed the XCVario. I tried complaining to the vario manufacturer and their reply was basically "...we no of no one having this experience ...".
> > > >
> > > > I do not have an SN-10 or Cambridge GPS in my glider. I have already moved wiring around to keep all of it as far away from the radio and the radio antenna as possible.
> > > >
> > > > Wrapping the vario with bronze mesh sounds like a good idea. I don't use XCSoar and, as mentioned, the only other reason I might have for needing the WiFi is for a software update.
> > > >
> > > > My Becker radio has an automatic squelch so there's nothing I can do about that.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for the help guys. I'll be back at the gliderport this coming weekend and will hopefully have some good news to share by this time next week.
> > > >
> > > > JLH/H4
> > > I would remove the vario from the glider and set it up on a table far removed from any other electrical device. Hook up a power source (battery) and test it with a handheld radio close by. Document the test with a short video. If the vario breaks squelch send the video to the manufacturer and ask the them to perform the same test and report back. Try the test with and w/o ferrite beads on the power lines.
> > >
> > > This vario has probably not passed US FCC certification required of all consumer electronics. Ask the manufacturer for their FCC certification number. If they don't have it or refuse to supply it they are breaking US law. You can quickly determine this yourself by examining the vario for any FCC ID which they are required to put on the product. There are similar requirements in the EU.
> > >
> > > Tom 2G
> > This vario has CE certification. If I am not mistaken, and I don't think I am, CE certification is accepted by the USA.
> >
> > I am using one and there is no problem what so ever. It is a great little variometer.
> >
> > Mike
> CE is a broad CLAIM by the manufacturer that the product meets all requisite regulatory requirements; an FCC ID means that the product has actually been CERTIFIED by a testing laboratory and the test results are available for public inspection. Your experiences are not the same as having it tested at a certified laboratory using calibrated test equipment (you may have a less sensitive radio).
>
> Tom 2G

Tom,
I also use a Becker radio.
Really, no CE testing similar to FCC certification?
Just looked-
No FCC ID sticker on the back of my 302 nor on my ClearNav set up.
On my Nano, it only says CE on the back.

Regards,

Mike

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 4:13:01 PM UTC-7, Mike Carris wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 8:55:44 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:20:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Carris wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 6:09:01 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 2:16:35 PM UTC-7, miltonpilot JLH wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 11:49:40 AM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > > > On 8/14/2023 2:03 PM, kinsell wrote:
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > RFI problems in a modern cockpit are common, but this sounds unusual, in
> > > > > > > that it only happens when audio is generated from the vario. Perhaps
> > > > > > > they use square waves to generate the tones, and the harmonics are bad
> > > > > > > enough to cause the interference. If an external speaker is used, I'd
> > > > > > > disconnect the speaker as an experiment and see if the problem goes
> > > > > > > away. If so, it may be possible to just shield the speaker wires.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Dave
> > > > > > The XCvario audio uses a "class D" amplifier so yes it's a square wave.
> > > > > > The speaker is internal, although there is a jack for an external
> > > > > > speaker, can try using that. And the XCvario case is plastic, I
> > > > > > believe, so adding shielding around it may help. Note that the XCvario
> > > > > > has an internal WiFi/Bluetooth antenna, if you fully shield it it would
> > > > > > not be able to communicate wirelessly, e.g., to XCsoar. If you only
> > > > > > need the ability to update its software occasionally, via WiFi, then
> > > > > > make the shielding removable? That said, you probably won't shield the
> > > > > > front of the vario, so there will still be radio waves going through the
> > > > > > front (heading towards the glider's tail), for better or worse. In most
> > > > > > gliders the communications radio antenna is in the tail, so maybe it
> > > > > > will still receive the interference?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some radios used in gliders have adjustable squelch, so if the
> > > > > > interfering noise is not too strong, it only needs a bit of adjustment
> > > > > > to stop the squelch breaking, while normal communications would still
> > > > > > work. Alas, some other radio models have no squelch adjustment, or the
> > > > > > adjustment is inside the radio's case, difficult to reach.
> > > > > Steve, Mark, JJ, Uli, Dave and Moshe: Thank you all for your suggestions. I am going to twist the power and return wires. The speaker in the XCVario is internal so I can't do anything about that. The ferrites sound like a good idea also. Power and grounding is already single point and has been since I bought the glider used 6 years ago. All of the instruments have worked perfectly until the Ilec died and I installed the XCVario. I tried complaining to the vario manufacturer and their reply was basically "...we no of no one having this experience ...".
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not have an SN-10 or Cambridge GPS in my glider. I have already moved wiring around to keep all of it as far away from the radio and the radio antenna as possible.
> > > > >
> > > > > Wrapping the vario with bronze mesh sounds like a good idea. I don't use XCSoar and, as mentioned, the only other reason I might have for needing the WiFi is for a software update.
> > > > >
> > > > > My Becker radio has an automatic squelch so there's nothing I can do about that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again for the help guys. I'll be back at the gliderport this coming weekend and will hopefully have some good news to share by this time next week.
> > > > >
> > > > > JLH/H4
> > > > I would remove the vario from the glider and set it up on a table far removed from any other electrical device. Hook up a power source (battery) and test it with a handheld radio close by. Document the test with a short video. If the vario breaks squelch send the video to the manufacturer and ask the them to perform the same test and report back. Try the test with and w/o ferrite beads on the power lines.
> > > >
> > > > This vario has probably not passed US FCC certification required of all consumer electronics. Ask the manufacturer for their FCC certification number. If they don't have it or refuse to supply it they are breaking US law. You can quickly determine this yourself by examining the vario for any FCC ID which they are required to put on the product. There are similar requirements in the EU.
> > > >
> > > > Tom 2G
> > > This vario has CE certification. If I am not mistaken, and I don't think I am, CE certification is accepted by the USA.
> > >
> > > I am using one and there is no problem what so ever. It is a great little variometer.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > CE is a broad CLAIM by the manufacturer that the product meets all requisite regulatory requirements; an FCC ID means that the product has actually been CERTIFIED by a testing laboratory and the test results are available for public inspection. Your experiences are not the same as having it tested at a certified laboratory using calibrated test equipment (you may have a less sensitive radio).
> >
> > Tom 2G
> Tom,
> I also use a Becker radio.
> Really, no CE testing similar to FCC certification?
> Just looked-
> No FCC ID sticker on the back of my 302 nor on my ClearNav set up.
> On my Nano, it only says CE on the back.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike

Mike, there is no database that I could find of CE-certified products - it seems to be all self-certified. This is markedly different from the FCC, which maintains such a database. So, there is no guarantee that the CE mark is genuine. The company's response to miltonpilot's complaint makes me that much more suspicious that this might be the case. They should have offered to replace it under warranty but probably knew that all of their products have the same deficiency.

Tom 2G