https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/308512

Scratching my head on this one. Is there any possible advantage to land
gear up because you forgot to take off the wing dolly?

On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 3:59:01 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/308512
>
> Scratching my head on this one. Is there any possible advantage to land
> gear up because you forgot to take off the wing dolly?

No advantage that I could imagine. With the main gear up, the wing dolly will tip the wing more forcing the non-supported wing down into the ground, ground loop.
And with the tail dolly, the tail will be forced higher, forcing the wing into a lower AoA where it quits flying at the lower landing speed and contributes to the hard landing.

Somebody who forgets the tail dolly and wing wheel is a prime candidate for other memory loss. Like the main gear, seat belts, canopy latch.....

On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 12:59:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/308512
>
> Scratching my head on this one. Is there any possible advantage to land
> gear up because you forgot to take off the wing dolly?
Sure would like to hear the pilot's story. I've never heard of taking off with the wing dolly attached.

On 8/29/23 4:15 PM, Mark628CA wrote:
> Somebody who forgets the tail dolly and wing wheel is a prime candidate for other memory loss. Like the main gear, seat belts, canopy latch.....
>

That was my guess. There was one in the UK in 2021 that had a prop
strike, then pitched up 100 feet. Did a stall/spin, pilot survived but
didn't remember the accident. Prop strikes happen with FES, but why on
earth the pitchup?

https://www.taproot.com/electro-motor-glider-suffers-propeller-strike-stalls-spins/

Maybe it's time to retire these Silent 2's to museums so future
generations can see what they looked like.

On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 9:53:05 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/29/23 4:15 PM, Mark628CA wrote:
> > Somebody who forgets the tail dolly and wing wheel is a prime candidate for other memory loss. Like the main gear, seat belts, canopy latch.....
> >
> That was my guess. There was one in the UK in 2021 that had a prop
> strike, then pitched up 100 feet. Did a stall/spin, pilot survived but
> didn't remember the accident. Prop strikes happen with FES, but why on
> earth the pitchup?
>
> https://www.taproot.com/electro-motor-glider-suffers-propeller-strike-stalls-spins/
>
> Maybe it's time to retire these Silent 2's to museums so future
> generations can see what they looked like.

From the TapRoot Report:
>> The motor glider had been fitted with a Ballistic Parachute Recovery System (BPRS) which can present a hazard to first responders. As a result the CAA has updated its online G-INFO aircraft register to identify aircraft fitted with such a device. <<

That's an interesting aspect but what are the first responders supposed to do once they are aware that there is a life rocket somewhere in that wreck?

Uli
'AS'

On 8/29/23 4:15 PM, Mark628CA wrote:
> Somebody who forgets the tail dolly and wing wheel is a prime candidate for other memory loss. Like the main gear, seat belts, canopy latch.....
>

Here's another accident, Silent 2 Targa, which is gas powered instead of
FES. Had trouble getting the right side of canopy seated, thought it
was locked, but pin missed the hole. In the air, tried to get the right
side to lock, but managed instead to release the left side and the front!

Good news is he managed to hang on to the canopy for the entire flight.

Bad news is he botched the landing, came up short in the pattern, and
hit trees after turning off the engine but not retracting the mast.

Maybe these little 13 meter gliders are attracting pilots who can't
handle the workload of a motorglider?

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/223297

Only 2.5 hrs in the glider over 2 years.

-Dave

On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 5:56:24 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/29/23 4:15 PM, Mark628CA wrote:
> > Somebody who forgets the tail dolly and wing wheel is a prime candidate for other memory loss. Like the main gear, seat belts, canopy latch.....
> >
> Here's another accident, Silent 2 Targa, which is gas powered instead of
> FES. Had trouble getting the right side of canopy seated, thought it
> was locked, but pin missed the hole. In the air, tried to get the right
> side to lock, but managed instead to release the left side and the front!
>
> Good news is he managed to hang on to the canopy for the entire flight.
>
> Bad news is he botched the landing, came up short in the pattern, and
> hit trees after turning off the engine but not retracting the mast.
>
> Maybe these little 13 meter gliders are attracting pilots who can't
> handle the workload of a motorglider?
>
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/223297
>
> Only 2.5 hrs in the glider over 2 years.
>
> -Dave
2.5 hrs in 2 years? I wonder if he was flying other gliders, and what his two year total flight time was.

Have you tried looking for accidents in minLAK 13.5 motorgliders, as a comparison? In any case, I don't think it's the 13.5 M span that might be attracting a disproportionate number poor pilots; more likely, it's the greater availability and lower cost of the 13.5 self-launchers. The next step up is 18 M self-launchers that cost 50%-100% more.

With the tail dolly on the pilot is lucky to survive the take off, let alone the landing.

As this was a motorglider I assume the takeoff was unassisted and basically alone on the airport as to not have someone else spot this egregious error.. If at a gliderport on a flying day I would doubt that this would have occurred - especially if it was a pure glider needing a wing runner.

The worse we every had happen was when someone was stopped seconds before taking a tow due to my spotting that the aileron locks were still on. When I asked the PIC about a positive control check he said he had done one. Yeah, sure. Or else the PCC helper was defective.

- John (OHM)

On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 11:41:11 AM UTC-7, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> With the tail dolly on the pilot is lucky to survive the take off, let alone the landing.
>
> As this was a motorglider I assume the takeoff was unassisted and basically alone on the airport as to not have someone else spot this egregious error. If at a gliderport on a flying day I would doubt that this would have occurred - especially if it was a pure glider needing a wing runner.
>
> The worse we every had happen was when someone was stopped seconds before taking a tow due to my spotting that the aileron locks were still on. When I asked the PIC about a positive control check he said he had done one. Yeah, sure. Or else the PCC helper was defective.
>

Well, now I’ve heard everything! Taking off with wing wheel and tail dolly on! YGTBSM
What kind of a MG check out are these guys getting? The Russia fiasco was probably the result of trying to stow the motor with the prop not aligned …………

On the recent Minnie accident in the US, the motor was operating when he probably entered a low altitude spin!
Did he turn it on wile at thermal speed? If so, the torque probably was enough to cause the bird to spin. Isn’t there a minimum engine start speed?
Just thinking out loud,
JJ

On 8/29/23 7:52 PM, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/29/23 4:15 PM, Mark628CA wrote:
>> Somebody who forgets the tail dolly and wing wheel is a prime
>> candidate for other memory loss. Like the main gear, seat belts,
>> canopy latch.....
>>
>
> That was my guess.  There was one in the UK in 2021 that had a prop
> strike, then pitched up 100 feet.  Did a stall/spin, pilot survived but
> didn't remember the accident.  Prop strikes happen with FES, but why on
> earth the pitchup?
>
> https://www.taproot.com/electro-motor-glider-suffers-propeller-strike-stalls-spins/
>
> Maybe it's time to retire these Silent 2's to museums so future
> generations can see what they looked like.

Here's a well-qualified pilot, first flight in his brand new Silent 2
Electro, aggressive climb on takeoff to 100 feet, stall/spin, hit a barn
as he crashed. Survived with serious injuries.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/188664

On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 4:15:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/29/23 7:52 PM, kinsell wrote:
> > On 8/29/23 4:15 PM, Mark628CA wrote:
> >> Somebody who forgets the tail dolly and wing wheel is a prime
> >> candidate for other memory loss. Like the main gear, seat belts,
> >> canopy latch.....
> >>
> >
> > That was my guess. There was one in the UK in 2021 that had a prop
> > strike, then pitched up 100 feet. Did a stall/spin, pilot survived but
> > didn't remember the accident. Prop strikes happen with FES, but why on
> > earth the pitchup?
> >
> > https://www.taproot.com/electro-motor-glider-suffers-propeller-strike-stalls-spins/
> >
> > Maybe it's time to retire these Silent 2's to museums so future
> > generations can see what they looked like.
> Here's a well-qualified pilot, first flight in his brand new Silent 2
> Electro, aggressive climb on takeoff to 100 feet, stall/spin, hit a barn
> as he crashed. Survived with serious injuries.
>
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/188664

This one takes the cake. I have heard of pilots launching with the tail dolly attached; after all, it is out of sight. But the wing dolly is clearly visible from the cockpit and will fail a controls free and clear check. So, reading that the pilot retracted the gear and failed to extend it is not that surprising. The only mitigating circumstance is that he retracted the gear to extend the glide and flew it into the ground, gear retracted.

Tom 2G

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 12:06:55 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 4:15:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > On 8/29/23 7:52 PM, kinsell wrote:
> > > On 8/29/23 4:15 PM, Mark628CA wrote:
> > >> Somebody who forgets the tail dolly and wing wheel is a prime
> > >> candidate for other memory loss. Like the main gear, seat belts,
> > >> canopy latch.....
> > >>
> > >
> > > That was my guess. There was one in the UK in 2021 that had a prop
> > > strike, then pitched up 100 feet. Did a stall/spin, pilot survived but
> > > didn't remember the accident. Prop strikes happen with FES, but why on
> > > earth the pitchup?
> > >
> > > https://www.taproot.com/electro-motor-glider-suffers-propeller-strike-stalls-spins/
> > >
> > > Maybe it's time to retire these Silent 2's to museums so future
> > > generations can see what they looked like.
> > Here's a well-qualified pilot, first flight in his brand new Silent 2
> > Electro, aggressive climb on takeoff to 100 feet, stall/spin, hit a barn
> > as he crashed. Survived with serious injuries.
> >
> > https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/188664
> This one takes the cake. I have heard of pilots launching with the tail dolly attached; after all, it is out of sight. But the wing dolly is clearly visible from the cockpit and will fail a controls free and clear check. So, reading that the pilot retracted the gear and failed to extend it is not that surprising. The only mitigating circumstance is that he retracted the gear to extend the glide and flew it into the ground, gear retracted.
>
> Tom 2G

My initial observation of the launch procedure at a major commercial Gliderport was that it was nebulous at best. The instructor had to ask someone standing around if they would hold the wing and clear the downwind for launch. I immediately thought that this would be the perfect situation for a dedicated line boy who would be properly trained.

While I was learning to fly I found myself jumping in and helping out after my lesson or two. Frequently I would come out early and help launch while awaiting my scheduled lesson. More often than not the next guy up in the launch sequence would launch the glider in front of them to expedite matters. It was not unusual to find my instructor hooking us up, getting in and getting ready to go and doing a self launch, something a Blank seemed quite capable of doing. He had thoroughly indoctrinated me into the proper ways of doing things for launch, hooking up with proper hand signals, checking for wing dollies, tail dollies, secured canopies, clear down wind, etc.

Once while “volunteering” to launch I had a club member from a well known northern club tell me to move aside, that he would launch his club plane, they liked things done their way. FINE. I headed back to the office and moments later a field regular came running into the office, grab the radio and informed the club plane that his tail dolly was still on. The glider landed, the tail dolly was removed and they relaunched. Mr “move aside guy’s” excuse was that it was the first operation in a while and they were rusty. ??? How do you miss a big red thing on a white glider?

Later as the tow pilot I would watch things in the mirror and find mistakes from 200 feet away thru a tiny mirror. How can people stand a few feet from a problem and not see it? People makes mistakes, mistakes are ubiquitous, always have been, always will be. You can only hope that your mistake does not kill you or someone else. Sometimes it will.

Find a local kid with above average intelligence, instruct him properly and let him work for flying lessons. JMHO.

Walt Connelly

On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 3:00:25 PM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 11:41:11 AM UTC-7, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > With the tail dolly on the pilot is lucky to survive the take off, let alone the landing.
> >
> > As this was a motorglider I assume the takeoff was unassisted and basically alone on the airport as to not have someone else spot this egregious error. If at a gliderport on a flying day I would doubt that this would have occurred - especially if it was a pure glider needing a wing runner.
> >
> > The worse we every had happen was when someone was stopped seconds before taking a tow due to my spotting that the aileron locks were still on. When I asked the PIC about a positive control check he said he had done one. Yeah, sure. Or else the PCC helper was defective.
> >
> Well, now I’ve heard everything! Taking off with wing wheel and tail dolly on! YGTBSM
> What kind of a MG check out are these guys getting? The Russia fiasco was probably the result of trying to stow the motor with the prop not aligned …………
>
> On the recent Minnie accident in the US, the motor was operating when he probably entered a low altitude spin!
> Did he turn it on wile at thermal speed? If so, the torque probably was enough to cause the bird to spin. Isn’t there a minimum engine start speed?
> Just thinking out loud,
> JJ
My recollection, based on reading the FES manual and one flight each in a miniLAK and Electro Silent, is the motor speed ramps up smoothly with no discernable torque effect. And there is no minimum engine start speed.

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 8:09:20 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 3:00:25 PM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 11:41:11 AM UTC-7, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > > With the tail dolly on the pilot is lucky to survive the take off, let alone the landing.
> > >
> > > As this was a motorglider I assume the takeoff was unassisted and basically alone on the airport as to not have someone else spot this egregious error. If at a gliderport on a flying day I would doubt that this would have occurred - especially if it was a pure glider needing a wing runner.
> > >
> > > The worse we every had happen was when someone was stopped seconds before taking a tow due to my spotting that the aileron locks were still on. When I asked the PIC about a positive control check he said he had done one.. Yeah, sure. Or else the PCC helper was defective.
> > >
> > Well, now I’ve heard everything! Taking off with wing wheel and tail dolly on! YGTBSM
> > What kind of a MG check out are these guys getting? The Russia fiasco was probably the result of trying to stow the motor with the prop not aligned …………
> >
> > On the recent Minnie accident in the US, the motor was operating when he probably entered a low altitude spin!
> > Did he turn it on wile at thermal speed? If so, the torque probably was enough to cause the bird to spin. Isn’t there a minimum engine start speed?
> > Just thinking out loud,
> > JJ

> . And there is no minimum engine start speed.

We know from his trace that the Mini was 1000’, one mile north of the airport and probably trying to work a thermal. The Federalies said the motor was in use when he impacted! I think he tried to work a weak thermal and gave up and started the motor! If the RPM is sufficient to cause the props extend, it has got to be producing some torque! Matt was most likely flying 3 knots above stall………….the speed we all thermal at and if he didn’t speed up before starting the motor, I believe the torque would ( could) be enough to send the bird into a spin?

Maybe there should be a Minimum Start Speed?
JJ

One day as I was sitting in the Pawnee between tows, I watched a Stemme
take off and noticed that he had not removed the wing saddle pads from
the back of the glider. These are used to cushion the wing tips when
folded up.

I got on the radio and said urgently, "(Call Sign) DO NOT RETRACT YOUR
GEAR! Your wing saddles are still attached." The forward straps of the
saddles are wrapped around the landing gear which are electrically
retracted. At best the only damage would be broken straps, but at worst
a landing gear fault might have happened resulting in a popped circuit
breaker, jammed gear partially in the well, inability to lower manually,
etc.

Either the pilot heard my radio warning or he saw the wing runner
jumping up and down and waving his arms wildly as he flew past, but he
returned to land without attempting to raise the gear.

Dan
5J

On 8/30/23 12:41, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> With the tail dolly on the pilot is lucky to survive the take off, let alone the landing.
>
> As this was a motorglider I assume the takeoff was unassisted and basically alone on the airport as to not have someone else spot this egregious error. If at a gliderport on a flying day I would doubt that this would have occurred - especially if it was a pure glider needing a wing runner.
>
> The worse we every had happen was when someone was stopped seconds before taking a tow due to my spotting that the aileron locks were still on. When I asked the PIC about a positive control check he said he had done one. Yeah, sure. Or else the PCC helper was defective.
>
> - John (OHM)

Damn right, Walt. Damn right...

Dan
5J

On 8/31/23 07:49, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 12:06:55 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 4:15:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>> On 8/29/23 7:52 PM, kinsell wrote:
>>>> On 8/29/23 4:15 PM, Mark628CA wrote:
>>>>> Somebody who forgets the tail dolly and wing wheel is a prime
>>>>> candidate for other memory loss. Like the main gear, seat belts,
>>>>> canopy latch.....
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That was my guess. There was one in the UK in 2021 that had a prop
>>>> strike, then pitched up 100 feet. Did a stall/spin, pilot survived but
>>>> didn't remember the accident. Prop strikes happen with FES, but why on
>>>> earth the pitchup?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.taproot.com/electro-motor-glider-suffers-propeller-strike-stalls-spins/
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it's time to retire these Silent 2's to museums so future
>>>> generations can see what they looked like.
>>> Here's a well-qualified pilot, first flight in his brand new Silent 2
>>> Electro, aggressive climb on takeoff to 100 feet, stall/spin, hit a barn
>>> as he crashed. Survived with serious injuries.
>>>
>>> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/188664
>> This one takes the cake. I have heard of pilots launching with the tail dolly attached; after all, it is out of sight. But the wing dolly is clearly visible from the cockpit and will fail a controls free and clear check. So, reading that the pilot retracted the gear and failed to extend it is not that surprising. The only mitigating circumstance is that he retracted the gear to extend the glide and flew it into the ground, gear retracted.
>>
>> Tom 2G
>
> My initial observation of the launch procedure at a major commercial Gliderport was that it was nebulous at best. The instructor had to ask someone standing around if they would hold the wing and clear the downwind for launch. I immediately thought that this would be the perfect situation for a dedicated line boy who would be properly trained.
>
> While I was learning to fly I found myself jumping in and helping out after my lesson or two. Frequently I would come out early and help launch while awaiting my scheduled lesson. More often than not the next guy up in the launch sequence would launch the glider in front of them to expedite matters. It was not unusual to find my instructor hooking us up, getting in and getting ready to go and doing a self launch, something a Blank seemed quite capable of doing. He had thoroughly indoctrinated me into the proper ways of doing things for launch, hooking up with proper hand signals, checking for wing dollies, tail dollies, secured canopies, clear down wind, etc.
>
> Once while “volunteering” to launch I had a club member from a well known northern club tell me to move aside, that he would launch his club plane, they liked things done their way. FINE. I headed back to the office and moments later a field regular came running into the office, grab the radio and informed the club plane that his tail dolly was still on. The glider landed, the tail dolly was removed and they relaunched. Mr “move aside guy’s” excuse was that it was the first operation in a while and they were rusty. ??? How do you miss a big red thing on a white glider?
>
> Later as the tow pilot I would watch things in the mirror and find mistakes from 200 feet away thru a tiny mirror. How can people stand a few feet from a problem and not see it? People makes mistakes, mistakes are ubiquitous, always have been, always will be. You can only hope that your mistake does not kill you or someone else. Sometimes it will.
>
> Find a local kid with above average intelligence, instruct him properly and let him work for flying lessons. JMHO.
>
> Walt Connelly

I would like to learn more about this torque effect from motorglider pilots..
Over the years I thought I learned pretty much all the pros and cons of motor, but never heard of the risk of spin due to starting the motor. Is this unique for FES, or any retractable motor? Was it officially identified as contributing factor in any accident?

Ramy

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 9:33:22 AM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 8:09:20 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 3:00:25 PM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 11:41:11 AM UTC-7, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > > > With the tail dolly on the pilot is lucky to survive the take off, let alone the landing.
> > > >
> > > > As this was a motorglider I assume the takeoff was unassisted and basically alone on the airport as to not have someone else spot this egregious error. If at a gliderport on a flying day I would doubt that this would have occurred - especially if it was a pure glider needing a wing runner.
> > > >
> > > > The worse we every had happen was when someone was stopped seconds before taking a tow due to my spotting that the aileron locks were still on.. When I asked the PIC about a positive control check he said he had done one. Yeah, sure. Or else the PCC helper was defective.
> > > >
> > > Well, now I’ve heard everything! Taking off with wing wheel and tail dolly on! YGTBSM
> > > What kind of a MG check out are these guys getting? The Russia fiasco was probably the result of trying to stow the motor with the prop not aligned …………
> > >
> > > On the recent Minnie accident in the US, the motor was operating when he probably entered a low altitude spin!
> > > Did he turn it on wile at thermal speed? If so, the torque probably was enough to cause the bird to spin. Isn’t there a minimum engine start speed?
> > > Just thinking out loud,
> > > JJ
> > . And there is no minimum engine start speed.
> We know from his trace that the Mini was 1000’, one mile north of the airport and probably trying to work a thermal. The Federalies said the motor was in use when he impacted! I think he tried to work a weak thermal and gave up and started the motor! If the RPM is sufficient to cause the props extend, it has got to be producing some torque! Matt was most likely flying 3 knots above stall………….the speed we all thermal at and if he didn’t speed up before starting the motor, I believe the torque would ( could) be enough to send the bird into a spin?
>
> Maybe there should be a Minimum Start Speed?
> JJ

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 3:03:20 PM UTC-3, Ramy wrote:
> I would like to learn more about this torque effect from motorglider pilots.
> Over the years I thought I learned pretty much all the pros and cons of motor, but never heard of the risk of spin due to starting the motor. Is this unique for FES, or any retractable motor? Was it officially identified as contributing factor in any accident?
>
> Ramy
> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 9:33:22 AM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 8:09:20 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 3:00:25 PM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 11:41:11 AM UTC-7, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > > > > With the tail dolly on the pilot is lucky to survive the take off, let alone the landing.
> > > > >
> > > > > As this was a motorglider I assume the takeoff was unassisted and basically alone on the airport as to not have someone else spot this egregious error. If at a gliderport on a flying day I would doubt that this would have occurred - especially if it was a pure glider needing a wing runner.
> > > > >
> > > > > The worse we every had happen was when someone was stopped seconds before taking a tow due to my spotting that the aileron locks were still on. When I asked the PIC about a positive control check he said he had done one. Yeah, sure. Or else the PCC helper was defective.
> > > > >
> > > > Well, now I’ve heard everything! Taking off with wing wheel and tail dolly on! YGTBSM
> > > > What kind of a MG check out are these guys getting? The Russia fiasco was probably the result of trying to stow the motor with the prop not aligned …………
> > > >
> > > > On the recent Minnie accident in the US, the motor was operating when he probably entered a low altitude spin!
> > > > Did he turn it on wile at thermal speed? If so, the torque probably was enough to cause the bird to spin. Isn’t there a minimum engine start speed?
> > > > Just thinking out loud,
> > > > JJ
> > > . And there is no minimum engine start speed.
> > We know from his trace that the Mini was 1000’, one mile north of the airport and probably trying to work a thermal. The Federalies said the motor was in use when he impacted! I think he tried to work a weak thermal and gave up and started the motor! If the RPM is sufficient to cause the props extend, it has got to be producing some torque! Matt was most likely flying 3 knots above stall………….the speed we all thermal at and if he didn’t speed up before starting the motor, I believe the torque would ( could) be enough to send the bird into a spin?
> >
> > Maybe there should be a Minimum Start Speed?
> > JJ

I have cumulatively ~500 hours on multiple FES types, including three eGlide races where you start/stop it dozens of times a flight - there is no observable torque effect and I have no hesitation going from zero to full power instantly, even slow in a turn.

I actually like to have a bit of power on at eGlide when I am climbing low in the mountains, both my Diana 2 and LS8 feel much harder to stall power-on compared to power-off. On neither type does engine usage bother the ASI or TE compensation.

What I do observe is that FES gliders, and particularly the Silents/MiniLAK's tend to disproportionately attract very low-hour, inexperienced pilots compared to other new gliders available. I suspect this contributes to a lot of accidents, and I don't know if those same pilots would have been more or less likely to crash in another type.

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 2:58:40 PM UTC-4, Matthew Scutter wrote:
> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 3:03:20 PM UTC-3, Ramy wrote:
> > I would like to learn more about this torque effect from motorglider pilots.
> > Over the years I thought I learned pretty much all the pros and cons of motor, but never heard of the risk of spin due to starting the motor. Is this unique for FES, or any retractable motor? Was it officially identified as contributing factor in any accident?
> >
> > Ramy
> > On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 9:33:22 AM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 8:09:20 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 3:00:25 PM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 11:41:11 AM UTC-7, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > > > > > With the tail dolly on the pilot is lucky to survive the take off, let alone the landing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As this was a motorglider I assume the takeoff was unassisted and basically alone on the airport as to not have someone else spot this egregious error. If at a gliderport on a flying day I would doubt that this would have occurred - especially if it was a pure glider needing a wing runner.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The worse we every had happen was when someone was stopped seconds before taking a tow due to my spotting that the aileron locks were still on. When I asked the PIC about a positive control check he said he had done one. Yeah, sure. Or else the PCC helper was defective.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Well, now I’ve heard everything! Taking off with wing wheel and tail dolly on! YGTBSM
> > > > > What kind of a MG check out are these guys getting? The Russia fiasco was probably the result of trying to stow the motor with the prop not aligned …………
> > > > >
> > > > > On the recent Minnie accident in the US, the motor was operating when he probably entered a low altitude spin!
> > > > > Did he turn it on wile at thermal speed? If so, the torque probably was enough to cause the bird to spin. Isn’t there a minimum engine start speed?
> > > > > Just thinking out loud,
> > > > > JJ
> > > > . And there is no minimum engine start speed.
> > > We know from his trace that the Mini was 1000’, one mile north of the airport and probably trying to work a thermal. The Federalies said the motor was in use when he impacted! I think he tried to work a weak thermal and gave up and started the motor! If the RPM is sufficient to cause the props extend, it has got to be producing some torque! Matt was most likely flying 3 knots above stall………….the speed we all thermal at and if he didn’t speed up before starting the motor, I believe the torque would ( could) be enough to send the bird into a spin?
> > >
> > > Maybe there should be a Minimum Start Speed?
> > > JJ
> I have cumulatively ~500 hours on multiple FES types, including three eGlide races where you start/stop it dozens of times a flight - there is no observable torque effect and I have no hesitation going from zero to full power instantly, even slow in a turn.
>
> I actually like to have a bit of power on at eGlide when I am climbing low in the mountains, both my Diana 2 and LS8 feel much harder to stall power-on compared to power-off. On neither type does engine usage bother the ASI or TE compensation.
>
> What I do observe is that FES gliders, and particularly the Silents/MiniLAK's tend to disproportionately attract very low-hour, inexperienced pilots compared to other new gliders available. I suspect this contributes to a lot of accidents, and I don't know if those same pilots would have been more or less likely to crash in another type.

I suspect Mathew is on to something here. Add to that the common desire to fly independently, possibly not at the local soaring site, and you may have someone not very well trained and not connected to the local safety culture.
FWIW
UH

There are no noticeable torque, P-factor, or gyroscopic effects in the
Stemme. Maybe it's due to the long wheel base but it's simply a pussy
cat on the ground and in the air.

Dan
5J

On 8/31/23 12:03, Ramy wrote:
> I would like to learn more about this torque effect from motorglider pilots.
> Over the years I thought I learned pretty much all the pros and cons of motor, but never heard of the risk of spin due to starting the motor. Is this unique for FES, or any retractable motor? Was it officially identified as contributing factor in any accident?
>
> Ramy
>
> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 9:33:22 AM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 8:09:20 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 3:00:25 PM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 11:41:11 AM UTC-7, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
>>>>> With the tail dolly on the pilot is lucky to survive the take off, let alone the landing.
>>>>>
>>>>> As this was a motorglider I assume the takeoff was unassisted and basically alone on the airport as to not have someone else spot this egregious error. If at a gliderport on a flying day I would doubt that this would have occurred - especially if it was a pure glider needing a wing runner.
>>>>>
>>>>> The worse we every had happen was when someone was stopped seconds before taking a tow due to my spotting that the aileron locks were still on. When I asked the PIC about a positive control check he said he had done one. Yeah, sure. Or else the PCC helper was defective.
>>>>>
>>>> Well, now I’ve heard everything! Taking off with wing wheel and tail dolly on! YGTBSM
>>>> What kind of a MG check out are these guys getting? The Russia fiasco was probably the result of trying to stow the motor with the prop not aligned …………
>>>>
>>>> On the recent Minnie accident in the US, the motor was operating when he probably entered a low altitude spin!
>>>> Did he turn it on wile at thermal speed? If so, the torque probably was enough to cause the bird to spin. Isn’t there a minimum engine start speed?
>>>> Just thinking out loud,
>>>> JJ
>>> . And there is no minimum engine start speed.
>> We know from his trace that the Mini was 1000’, one mile north of the airport and probably trying to work a thermal. The Federalies said the motor was in use when he impacted! I think he tried to work a weak thermal and gave up and started the motor! If the RPM is sufficient to cause the props extend, it has got to be producing some torque! Matt was most likely flying 3 knots above stall………….the speed we all thermal at and if he didn’t speed up before starting the motor, I believe the torque would ( could) be enough to send the bird into a spin?
>>
>> Maybe there should be a Minimum Start Speed?
>> JJ