Just to follow up on this, Nikola had another battery fire. All BEV
trucks they've made were recalled (about 200), and production stopped.

An outside party investigated the cause, found leaking coolant inside
battery packs was causing the problem. Nikola has given up trying to
blame sabotage for the issue.

So they had both holes punched in the cells, and the leaking coolant.
Just when you think battery vendors have figured out every possible way
of screwing up their batteries, they manage to come up with something new.

On 7/11/23 8:29 AM, kinsell wrote:
> On 7/11/23 6:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> Reported cells 360 Wh/kg, pack 261 Wh/kg.
>> https://insideevs.com/news/676131/nio-solid-state-battery-577-miles-range/
>
> Why are people still wasting time with batteries?  The future clearly is
> Hydrogen.
>
> Nikola Motors tried out gravity-powered semi's, but achieved limited
> commercial success with them.  So of course they went to batteries.  But
> unfortunately their laser welding process was punching holes in the
> cells, leading to corrosion of the terminals after as little as two cycles:
>
>
> https://electrek.co/2023/06/27/nikola-major-battery-defect-trucks-caught-fire/
>
> They discovered the problem, and remarkably decided to continue
> production of the batteries, in parallel with trying to fix it.
>
> They did burn up five semi tractors, claiming it must have been arson,
> but the fire department said they could find no evidence at all of
> arson.  No doubt a coincidence that the fried tractors were built with
> defective batteries.
>
> Having stumbled a bit with batteries, they're now all-in on hydrogen,
> pretending that semi drivers will be able to access a nation-wide
> network of hydrogen fueling stations, all serving up Green Hydrogen.
> Perhaps Dementia Joe will toss a few hundred billion their way to solve
> that problem.

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 8:31:00 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> Just to follow up on this, Nikola had another battery fire. All BEV
> trucks they've made were recalled (about 200), and production stopped.
>
> An outside party investigated the cause, found leaking coolant inside
> battery packs was causing the problem. Nikola has given up trying to
> blame sabotage for the issue.
>
> So they had both holes punched in the cells, and the leaking coolant.
> Just when you think battery vendors have figured out every possible way
> of screwing up their batteries, they manage to come up with something new..
> On 7/11/23 8:29 AM, kinsell wrote:
> > On 7/11/23 6:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> >> Reported cells 360 Wh/kg, pack 261 Wh/kg.
> >> https://insideevs.com/news/676131/nio-solid-state-battery-577-miles-range/
> >
> > Why are people still wasting time with batteries? The future clearly is
> > Hydrogen.
> >
> > Nikola Motors tried out gravity-powered semi's, but achieved limited
> > commercial success with them. So of course they went to batteries. But
> > unfortunately their laser welding process was punching holes in the
> > cells, leading to corrosion of the terminals after as little as two cycles:
> >
> >
> > https://electrek.co/2023/06/27/nikola-major-battery-defect-trucks-caught-fire/
> >
> > They discovered the problem, and remarkably decided to continue
> > production of the batteries, in parallel with trying to fix it.
> >
> > They did burn up five semi tractors, claiming it must have been arson,
> > but the fire department said they could find no evidence at all of
> > arson. No doubt a coincidence that the fried tractors were built with
> > defective batteries.
> >
> > Having stumbled a bit with batteries, they're now all-in on hydrogen,
> > pretending that semi drivers will be able to access a nation-wide
> > network of hydrogen fueling stations, all serving up Green Hydrogen.
> > Perhaps Dementia Joe will toss a few hundred billion their way to solve
> > that problem.
Will this be related to soaring at some point? Dave's initial post is about solid state batteries that could add 40% range to electric sailplanes without an increase in weight and with the promise of significantly lower fire risk. Discussions of problems a specific company has developing electric long-haul semi-trailer trucks doesn't seem to be going anywhere soaring related.

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 8:21:48 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 8:31:00 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > Just to follow up on this, Nikola had another battery fire. All BEV
> > trucks they've made were recalled (about 200), and production stopped.
> >
> > An outside party investigated the cause, found leaking coolant inside
> > battery packs was causing the problem. Nikola has given up trying to
> > blame sabotage for the issue.
> >
> > So they had both holes punched in the cells, and the leaking coolant.
> > Just when you think battery vendors have figured out every possible way
> > of screwing up their batteries, they manage to come up with something new.
> > On 7/11/23 8:29 AM, kinsell wrote:
> > > On 7/11/23 6:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > >> Reported cells 360 Wh/kg, pack 261 Wh/kg.
> > >> https://insideevs.com/news/676131/nio-solid-state-battery-577-miles-range/
> > >
> > > Why are people still wasting time with batteries? The future clearly is
> > > Hydrogen.
> > >
> > > Nikola Motors tried out gravity-powered semi's, but achieved limited
> > > commercial success with them. So of course they went to batteries. But
> > > unfortunately their laser welding process was punching holes in the
> > > cells, leading to corrosion of the terminals after as little as two cycles:
> > >
> > >
> > > https://electrek.co/2023/06/27/nikola-major-battery-defect-trucks-caught-fire/
> > >
> > > They discovered the problem, and remarkably decided to continue
> > > production of the batteries, in parallel with trying to fix it.
> > >
> > > They did burn up five semi tractors, claiming it must have been arson,
> > > but the fire department said they could find no evidence at all of
> > > arson. No doubt a coincidence that the fried tractors were built with
> > > defective batteries.
> > >
> > > Having stumbled a bit with batteries, they're now all-in on hydrogen,
> > > pretending that semi drivers will be able to access a nation-wide
> > > network of hydrogen fueling stations, all serving up Green Hydrogen.
> > > Perhaps Dementia Joe will toss a few hundred billion their way to solve
> > > that problem.
> Will this be related to soaring at some point? Dave's initial post is about solid state batteries that could add 40% range to electric sailplanes without an increase in weight and with the promise of significantly lower fire risk. Discussions of problems a specific company has developing electric long-haul semi-trailer trucks doesn't seem to be going anywhere soaring related.

Maybe, maybe not. But who cares? RAS is, and still remains, unmoderated. Somebody has started a moderated soaring newsgroup, but it seems to be mostly defunct. Your decision to read threads, and to respond, is yours and yours alone. Personally, I am very interested in ANY battery technology related issues, ESPECIALLY battery failure mechanisms.

Tom 2G

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 5:29:33 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 8:21:48 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 8:31:00 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > Just to follow up on this, Nikola had another battery fire. All BEV
> > > trucks they've made were recalled (about 200), and production stopped..
> > >
> > > An outside party investigated the cause, found leaking coolant inside
> > > battery packs was causing the problem. Nikola has given up trying to
> > > blame sabotage for the issue.
> > >
> > > So they had both holes punched in the cells, and the leaking coolant.
> > > Just when you think battery vendors have figured out every possible way
> > > of screwing up their batteries, they manage to come up with something new.
> > > On 7/11/23 8:29 AM, kinsell wrote:
> > > > On 7/11/23 6:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > >> Reported cells 360 Wh/kg, pack 261 Wh/kg.
> > > >> https://insideevs.com/news/676131/nio-solid-state-battery-577-miles-range/
> > > >
> > > > Why are people still wasting time with batteries? The future clearly is
> > > > Hydrogen.
> > > >
> > > > Nikola Motors tried out gravity-powered semi's, but achieved limited
> > > > commercial success with them. So of course they went to batteries. But
> > > > unfortunately their laser welding process was punching holes in the
> > > > cells, leading to corrosion of the terminals after as little as two cycles:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://electrek.co/2023/06/27/nikola-major-battery-defect-trucks-caught-fire/
> > > >
> > > > They discovered the problem, and remarkably decided to continue
> > > > production of the batteries, in parallel with trying to fix it.
> > > >
> > > > They did burn up five semi tractors, claiming it must have been arson,
> > > > but the fire department said they could find no evidence at all of
> > > > arson. No doubt a coincidence that the fried tractors were built with
> > > > defective batteries.
> > > >
> > > > Having stumbled a bit with batteries, they're now all-in on hydrogen,
> > > > pretending that semi drivers will be able to access a nation-wide
> > > > network of hydrogen fueling stations, all serving up Green Hydrogen..
> > > > Perhaps Dementia Joe will toss a few hundred billion their way to solve
> > > > that problem.
> > Will this be related to soaring at some point? Dave's initial post is about solid state batteries that could add 40% range to electric sailplanes without an increase in weight and with the promise of significantly lower fire risk. Discussions of problems a specific company has developing electric long-haul semi-trailer trucks doesn't seem to be going anywhere soaring related.
> Maybe, maybe not. But who cares? RAS is, and still remains, unmoderated. Somebody has started a moderated soaring newsgroup, but it seems to be mostly defunct. Your decision to read threads, and to respond, is yours and yours alone. Personally, I am very interested in ANY battery technology related issues, ESPECIALLY battery failure mechanisms.
>
> Tom 2G
Well, I care. I think it's a better newsgroup if it sticks to soaring. We can't stop the the Daryl guy from posting irrelevant material, but can we avoid doing it to ourselves. Perhaps, since you and Dave are interested in the same non-soaring battery disasters, you could just email each other?

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 2:49:08 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 5:29:33 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 8:21:48 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 8:31:00 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > > Just to follow up on this, Nikola had another battery fire. All BEV
> > > > trucks they've made were recalled (about 200), and production stopped.
> > > >
> > > > An outside party investigated the cause, found leaking coolant inside
> > > > battery packs was causing the problem. Nikola has given up trying to
> > > > blame sabotage for the issue.
> > > >
> > > > So they had both holes punched in the cells, and the leaking coolant.
> > > > Just when you think battery vendors have figured out every possible way
> > > > of screwing up their batteries, they manage to come up with something new.
> > > > On 7/11/23 8:29 AM, kinsell wrote:
> > > > > On 7/11/23 6:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > > >> Reported cells 360 Wh/kg, pack 261 Wh/kg.
> > > > >> https://insideevs.com/news/676131/nio-solid-state-battery-577-miles-range/
> > > > >
> > > > > Why are people still wasting time with batteries? The future clearly is
> > > > > Hydrogen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nikola Motors tried out gravity-powered semi's, but achieved limited
> > > > > commercial success with them. So of course they went to batteries.. But
> > > > > unfortunately their laser welding process was punching holes in the
> > > > > cells, leading to corrosion of the terminals after as little as two cycles:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > https://electrek.co/2023/06/27/nikola-major-battery-defect-trucks-caught-fire/
> > > > >
> > > > > They discovered the problem, and remarkably decided to continue
> > > > > production of the batteries, in parallel with trying to fix it.
> > > > >
> > > > > They did burn up five semi tractors, claiming it must have been arson,
> > > > > but the fire department said they could find no evidence at all of
> > > > > arson. No doubt a coincidence that the fried tractors were built with
> > > > > defective batteries.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having stumbled a bit with batteries, they're now all-in on hydrogen,
> > > > > pretending that semi drivers will be able to access a nation-wide
> > > > > network of hydrogen fueling stations, all serving up Green Hydrogen.
> > > > > Perhaps Dementia Joe will toss a few hundred billion their way to solve
> > > > > that problem.
> > > Will this be related to soaring at some point? Dave's initial post is about solid state batteries that could add 40% range to electric sailplanes without an increase in weight and with the promise of significantly lower fire risk. Discussions of problems a specific company has developing electric long-haul semi-trailer trucks doesn't seem to be going anywhere soaring related.
> > Maybe, maybe not. But who cares? RAS is, and still remains, unmoderated.. Somebody has started a moderated soaring newsgroup, but it seems to be mostly defunct. Your decision to read threads, and to respond, is yours and yours alone. Personally, I am very interested in ANY battery technology related issues, ESPECIALLY battery failure mechanisms.
> >
> > Tom 2G
> Well, I care. I think it's a better newsgroup if it sticks to soaring. We can't stop the the Daryl guy from posting irrelevant material, but can we avoid doing it to ourselves. Perhaps, since you and Dave are interested in the same non-soaring battery disasters, you could just email each other?

Eric, a brick wall will get you more sympathy than most of the RAS posters. You are FAR better off just ignoring threads you are uninterested in. And, again, battery technology is VERY relevant to glider pilots, pure and motorized, Hell, I talked to one pilot who was considering an EV tow vehicle (bad idea!).

Tom 2G

On 8/28/23 6:06 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 2:49:08 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 5:29:33 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>>> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 8:21:48 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 8:31:00 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>>>> Just to follow up on this, Nikola had another battery fire. All BEV
>>>>> trucks they've made were recalled (about 200), and production stopped.
>>>>>
>>>>> An outside party investigated the cause, found leaking coolant inside
>>>>> battery packs was causing the problem. Nikola has given up trying to
>>>>> blame sabotage for the issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> So they had both holes punched in the cells, and the leaking coolant.
>>>>> Just when you think battery vendors have figured out every possible way
>>>>> of screwing up their batteries, they manage to come up with something new.
>>>>> On 7/11/23 8:29 AM, kinsell wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/11/23 6:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
>>>>>>> Reported cells 360 Wh/kg, pack 261 Wh/kg.
>>>>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/676131/nio-solid-state-battery-577-miles-range/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why are people still wasting time with batteries? The future clearly is
>>>>>> Hydrogen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nikola Motors tried out gravity-powered semi's, but achieved limited
>>>>>> commercial success with them. So of course they went to batteries. But
>>>>>> unfortunately their laser welding process was punching holes in the
>>>>>> cells, leading to corrosion of the terminals after as little as two cycles:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://electrek.co/2023/06/27/nikola-major-battery-defect-trucks-caught-fire/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They discovered the problem, and remarkably decided to continue
>>>>>> production of the batteries, in parallel with trying to fix it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They did burn up five semi tractors, claiming it must have been arson,
>>>>>> but the fire department said they could find no evidence at all of
>>>>>> arson. No doubt a coincidence that the fried tractors were built with
>>>>>> defective batteries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having stumbled a bit with batteries, they're now all-in on hydrogen,
>>>>>> pretending that semi drivers will be able to access a nation-wide
>>>>>> network of hydrogen fueling stations, all serving up Green Hydrogen.
>>>>>> Perhaps Dementia Joe will toss a few hundred billion their way to solve
>>>>>> that problem.
>>>> Will this be related to soaring at some point? Dave's initial post is about solid state batteries that could add 40% range to electric sailplanes without an increase in weight and with the promise of significantly lower fire risk. Discussions of problems a specific company has developing electric long-haul semi-trailer trucks doesn't seem to be going anywhere soaring related.
>>> Maybe, maybe not. But who cares? RAS is, and still remains, unmoderated. Somebody has started a moderated soaring newsgroup, but it seems to be mostly defunct. Your decision to read threads, and to respond, is yours and yours alone. Personally, I am very interested in ANY battery technology related issues, ESPECIALLY battery failure mechanisms.
>>>
>>> Tom 2G
>> Well, I care. I think it's a better newsgroup if it sticks to soaring. We can't stop the the Daryl guy from posting irrelevant material, but can we avoid doing it to ourselves. Perhaps, since you and Dave are interested in the same non-soaring battery disasters, you could just email each other?
>
> Eric, a brick wall will get you more sympathy than most of the RAS posters. You are FAR better off just ignoring threads you are uninterested in. And, again, battery technology is VERY relevant to glider pilots, pure and motorized, Hell, I talked to one pilot who was considering an EV tow vehicle (bad idea!).
>
> Tom 2G

No, you can't do anything about Daryl, but you certainly can do
something about the Floridian Bubba. Between him, Eric, Tom, and a few
others, there's hundreds of garbage postings, as Bubba constantly
flame-baits in order to get a response, and you guys always take the
bait. He'd go away if you guys just ignored him. That crap makes up a
substantial portion of the RAS postings these days. Not a good look for
the sport.

I don't know if Eric actually believes that glider manufacturers are
developing their own propulsion systems independent of what is done
elsewhere in the industry, but that most certainly isn't correct. They
use off the shelf hardware that has the same problems and limitations as
other systems.

Interesting that he says Nadler's original posting is soaring related
(apparently because it's happy news) but but negative postings have
nothing to do with soaring. It looks like Eric has an extreme bias to
only listen to good news, and reject anything negative. Given his large
investment in a certain electric motorglider, doesn't sound like he
wants to hear about potential problems. Wonder what he thinks about
Nadler's postings when he brings up electrical car fires? Don't
remember him objecting to those.

Happened to just be reading the accident report on that Silent 2 Electro
that went through the roof in Connecticut. An FES glider had five
engine runs on that flight. During the flight, he got three warnings to
reduce power, and two warnings to shut off the motor. In spite of that,
he tried to motor to his home airport over a densely populated urban
area. To his credit, he did tell the FAA that the accident may be been
avoided with “better management of power and understanding of battery
power source.” Sounds like somebody who would try to tow a trailer to
Ely with a Nissan Leaf.

-Dave

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 7:13:47 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
” Sounds like somebody who would try to tow a trailer to
> Ely with a Nissan Leaf.
>
> -Dave
"Sounds like somebody who would try to tow a trailer to
Ely with a Nissan Leaf." My concern is his poor judgement likely extends to other aspects of soaring. I think he sounds like someone who would get into even bigger trouble in a gas powered glider, and perhaps should not be flying gliders at all. And, maybe he shouldn't be towing anything, regardless of the tow vehicle.

I've been checked out in an Electro Silent, and a lot of the manual is devoted to managing the batteries. It's not just about safety, either, as he almost certainly trashed the batteries before the crash. The manual is very clear that ignoring repeated warnings about running when the charge is low will damage the batteries, and you will have to replace them before the next flight.

Eric

A few comments on EVs, batteries and hydrogen - since I'm in the power engineering/semiconductor business.
1. EVs are a thing. They are a little primitive right now, but battery-electric is where it's going. You won't be able to buy a gas vehicle in 10 years.
2. EVs are going to be like PCs were in the 1990s - obsolete before they leave the showroom. Improvements in battery tech, AI driving, inverter efficiency and sensors will advance so fast that miles-driven will not describe the value of a vehicle - they will be obsolete before they are worn out.
3. Hydrogen will happen for things that need to go a long way. Aircraft, for example. You can burn it, or you can put it through a power cell. Store it compressed at 3000 psi in the main wing spar. Plenty of watt-hours.
4. Batteries fail because people do stupid things to them - charge them too fast, charge them too hot, leave them too full, draw them down too empty. Electronics is not stupid - buy a decent battery managment system and you simply don't need to worry about it. For example, my wife's Audi knows not to charge past 80% normally, but if she wants the extra range, she can go on the car's app and tell it to go to 100%. It has an on-board charger that won't allow you to charge it too fast or too hot. These algorithms are known and easy to implement. My kid's Fiat500e has 25000 miles on it and the same range that it had when we picked it up used for $8000 with 6000 miles on it. New they were $35K. It's a wonderful first car for a teenager and the price was right. it's cost me pretty much nothing over 4 years - charges from our solar cells, has zero maintenance. All I need to spend money on is new tires every few weeks because the little bugger has a heavy foot.
5. Electric gliders are a thing. Teething issues in the first generations, just like everything, but the electic motor is perfect for this application..

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 7:13:47 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/28/23 6:06 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 2:49:08 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 5:29:33 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 8:21:48 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 8:31:00 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> >>>>> Just to follow up on this, Nikola had another battery fire. All BEV
> >>>>> trucks they've made were recalled (about 200), and production stopped.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> An outside party investigated the cause, found leaking coolant inside
> >>>>> battery packs was causing the problem. Nikola has given up trying to
> >>>>> blame sabotage for the issue.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So they had both holes punched in the cells, and the leaking coolant.
> >>>>> Just when you think battery vendors have figured out every possible way
> >>>>> of screwing up their batteries, they manage to come up with something new.
> >>>>> On 7/11/23 8:29 AM, kinsell wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/11/23 6:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> >>>>>>> Reported cells 360 Wh/kg, pack 261 Wh/kg.
> >>>>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/676131/nio-solid-state-battery-577-miles-range/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why are people still wasting time with batteries? The future clearly is
> >>>>>> Hydrogen.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Nikola Motors tried out gravity-powered semi's, but achieved limited
> >>>>>> commercial success with them. So of course they went to batteries. But
> >>>>>> unfortunately their laser welding process was punching holes in the
> >>>>>> cells, leading to corrosion of the terminals after as little as two cycles:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://electrek.co/2023/06/27/nikola-major-battery-defect-trucks-caught-fire/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They discovered the problem, and remarkably decided to continue
> >>>>>> production of the batteries, in parallel with trying to fix it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They did burn up five semi tractors, claiming it must have been arson,
> >>>>>> but the fire department said they could find no evidence at all of
> >>>>>> arson. No doubt a coincidence that the fried tractors were built with
> >>>>>> defective batteries.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Having stumbled a bit with batteries, they're now all-in on hydrogen,
> >>>>>> pretending that semi drivers will be able to access a nation-wide
> >>>>>> network of hydrogen fueling stations, all serving up Green Hydrogen.
> >>>>>> Perhaps Dementia Joe will toss a few hundred billion their way to solve
> >>>>>> that problem.
> >>>> Will this be related to soaring at some point? Dave's initial post is about solid state batteries that could add 40% range to electric sailplanes without an increase in weight and with the promise of significantly lower fire risk. Discussions of problems a specific company has developing electric long-haul semi-trailer trucks doesn't seem to be going anywhere soaring related.
> >>> Maybe, maybe not. But who cares? RAS is, and still remains, unmoderated. Somebody has started a moderated soaring newsgroup, but it seems to be mostly defunct. Your decision to read threads, and to respond, is yours and yours alone. Personally, I am very interested in ANY battery technology related issues, ESPECIALLY battery failure mechanisms.
> >>>
> >>> Tom 2G
> >> Well, I care. I think it's a better newsgroup if it sticks to soaring. We can't stop the the Daryl guy from posting irrelevant material, but can we avoid doing it to ourselves. Perhaps, since you and Dave are interested in the same non-soaring battery disasters, you could just email each other?
> >
> > Eric, a brick wall will get you more sympathy than most of the RAS posters. You are FAR better off just ignoring threads you are uninterested in. And, again, battery technology is VERY relevant to glider pilots, pure and motorized, Hell, I talked to one pilot who was considering an EV tow vehicle (bad idea!).
> >
> > Tom 2G
> No, you can't do anything about Daryl, but you certainly can do
> something about the Floridian Bubba. Between him, Eric, Tom, and a few
> others, there's hundreds of garbage postings, as Bubba constantly
> flame-baits in order to get a response, and you guys always take the
> bait. He'd go away if you guys just ignored him. That crap makes up a
> substantial portion of the RAS postings these days. Not a good look for
> the sport.
>
> I don't know if Eric actually believes that glider manufacturers are
> developing their own propulsion systems independent of what is done
> elsewhere in the industry, but that most certainly isn't correct. They
> use off the shelf hardware that has the same problems and limitations as
> other systems.
>
> Interesting that he says Nadler's original posting is soaring related
> (apparently because it's happy news) but but negative postings have
> nothing to do with soaring. It looks like Eric has an extreme bias to
> only listen to good news, and reject anything negative. Given his large
> investment in a certain electric motorglider, doesn't sound like he
> wants to hear about potential problems. Wonder what he thinks about
> Nadler's postings when he brings up electrical car fires? Don't
> remember him objecting to those.
>
> Happened to just be reading the accident report on that Silent 2 Electro
> that went through the roof in Connecticut. An FES glider had five
> engine runs on that flight. During the flight, he got three warnings to
> reduce power, and two warnings to shut off the motor. In spite of that,
> he tried to motor to his home airport over a densely populated urban
> area. To his credit, he did tell the FAA that the accident may be been
> avoided with “better management of power and understanding of battery
> power source.” Sounds like somebody who would try to tow a trailer to
> Ely with a Nissan Leaf.
>
> -Dave
"I don't know if Eric actually believes that glider manufacturers are developing their own propulsion systems independent of what is done elsewhere in the industry, but that most certainly isn't correct. They use off the shelf hardware that has the same problems and limitations as other systems."

Maybe the gliders are/will be using off the shelf hardware, but the article was about developing electric tractor trucks for semi-trailers, and they sure aren't using off the shelf hardware. That's the disconnect - you talk about vehicles with fluid cooled battery packs that weigh more than an open class glider and chemistries gliders aren't using. To make your case, you need to connect the dots for us, because I (and many others, I think) don't even see any dots to connect. Are they using pouches like the FES gliders? Small cylindrical batteries like the 18650 used in the other gliders? And all air cooled? No, not even close! Maybe the trucks seem similar to gliders to you, but I sure don't see it. Step us through Nikola's problems to Schleicher's problems, so we can see why we should care about Nikola's problems..

Eric

On 8/29/23 8:05 PM, Doug Bailey wrote:

> 3. Hydrogen will happen for things that need to go a long way. Aircraft, for example. You can burn it, or you can put it through a power cell. Store it compressed at 3000 psi in the main wing spar. Plenty of watt-hours.

I assume this was intended as a joke? 3000 psi stored in a wing spar
ought to give you enough juice to taxi out to the runway. Hydrogen is
good on an energy per mass basis, but on a volumetric basis it stinks at
3000 psi, even at 10000 psi which is sometimes used.

Germany just abandoned plans for hydrogen trains in Lower Saxony after
only one year of operation, and wasting $85M on the project.

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/no-more-hydrogen-trains-rail-company-that-launched-worlds-first-h2-line-last-year-opts-for-all-electric-future/2-1-1495801

Watch out, Dave!

Trains aren't glider related and I can't figure out how to ignore those
threads that don't interest me.

Wait a minute! I'm interested in more than just glider things, know how
to ignore or block things that don't interest me, am happy to see stuff
that has even the slightest connection to gliding or even none at all.

Think I'll go and read that "train" thing now. Thanks for posting it!

Dan
5J

On 8/31/23 07:23, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/29/23 8:05 PM, Doug Bailey wrote:
>
>> 3. Hydrogen will happen for things that need to go a long way.
>> Aircraft, for example. You can burn it, or you can put it through a
>> power cell. Store it compressed at 3000 psi in the main wing spar.
>> Plenty of watt-hours.
>
> I assume this was intended as a joke?  3000 psi stored in a wing spar
> ought to give you enough juice to taxi out to the runway.  Hydrogen is
> good on an energy per mass basis, but on a volumetric basis it stinks at
> 3000 psi, even at 10000 psi which is sometimes used.
>
> Germany just abandoned plans for hydrogen trains in Lower Saxony after
> only one year of operation, and wasting $85M on the project.
>
> https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/no-more-hydrogen-trains-rail-company-that-launched-worlds-first-h2-line-last-year-opts-for-all-electric-future/2-1-1495801

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 6:23:42 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/29/23 8:05 PM, Doug Bailey wrote:
>
> > 3. Hydrogen will happen for things that need to go a long way. Aircraft, for example. You can burn it, or you can put it through a power cell. Store it compressed at 3000 psi in the main wing spar. Plenty of watt-hours.
> I assume this was intended as a joke? 3000 psi stored in a wing spar
> ought to give you enough juice to taxi out to the runway. Hydrogen is
> good on an energy per mass basis, but on a volumetric basis it stinks at
> 3000 psi, even at 10000 psi which is sometimes used.
>
> Germany just abandoned plans for hydrogen trains in Lower Saxony after
> only one year of operation, and wasting $85M on the project.
>
> https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/no-more-hydrogen-trains-rail-company-that-launched-worlds-first-h2-line-last-year-opts-for-all-electric-future/2-1-1495801

I attended Aero 22 in Friedrickshavn where a hydrogen aircraft was shown, with a wing main spar made from a 30 ft long carbon fiber cylinder about twice the diameter of a scuba tank. If I recall correctly, it was a little smaller than a Fokker Friendship and had a couple hours of range.
Hydrogen (and battery) trains are obviously stupid - why carry your fuel around when there's a perfectly good means of getting power from a wire?

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 1:45:54 PM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 6:23:42 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > On 8/29/23 8:05 PM, Doug Bailey wrote:
> >
> > > 3. Hydrogen will happen for things that need to go a long way. Aircraft, for example. You can burn it, or you can put it through a power cell. Store it compressed at 3000 psi in the main wing spar. Plenty of watt-hours.
> > I assume this was intended as a joke? 3000 psi stored in a wing spar
> > ought to give you enough juice to taxi out to the runway. Hydrogen is
> > good on an energy per mass basis, but on a volumetric basis it stinks at
> > 3000 psi, even at 10000 psi which is sometimes used.
> >
> > Germany just abandoned plans for hydrogen trains in Lower Saxony after
> > only one year of operation, and wasting $85M on the project.
> >
> > https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/no-more-hydrogen-trains-rail-company-that-launched-worlds-first-h2-line-last-year-opts-for-all-electric-future/2-1-1495801
> I attended Aero 22 in Friedrickshavn where a hydrogen aircraft was shown, with a wing main spar made from a 30 ft long carbon fiber cylinder about twice the diameter of a scuba tank. If I recall correctly, it was a little smaller than a Fokker Friendship and had a couple hours of range.
> Hydrogen (and battery) trains are obviously stupid - why carry your fuel around when there's a perfectly good means of getting power from a wire?

And here's a different one, but same idea: https://hydrogen-central.com/apus-aircraft-design-hydrogen-wing-spar-tanks/

On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 7:05:10 PM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> A few comments on EVs, batteries and hydrogen - since I'm in the power engineering/semiconductor business.
> 1. EVs are a thing. They are a little primitive right now, but battery-electric is where it's going. You won't be able to buy a gas vehicle in 10 years.
> 2. EVs are going to be like PCs were in the 1990s - obsolete before they leave the showroom. Improvements in battery tech, AI driving, inverter efficiency and sensors will advance so fast that miles-driven will not describe the value of a vehicle - they will be obsolete before they are worn out.
> 3. Hydrogen will happen for things that need to go a long way. Aircraft, for example. You can burn it, or you can put it through a power cell. Store it compressed at 3000 psi in the main wing spar. Plenty of watt-hours.
> 4. Batteries fail because people do stupid things to them - charge them too fast, charge them too hot, leave them too full, draw them down too empty.. Electronics is not stupid - buy a decent battery managment system and you simply don't need to worry about it. For example, my wife's Audi knows not to charge past 80% normally, but if she wants the extra range, she can go on the car's app and tell it to go to 100%. It has an on-board charger that won't allow you to charge it too fast or too hot. These algorithms are known and easy to implement. My kid's Fiat500e has 25000 miles on it and the same range that it had when we picked it up used for $8000 with 6000 miles on it. New they were $35K. It's a wonderful first car for a teenager and the price was right. it's cost me pretty much nothing over 4 years - charges from our solar cells, has zero maintenance. All I need to spend money on is new tires every few weeks because the little bugger has a heavy foot.
> 5. Electric gliders are a thing. Teething issues in the first generations, just like everything, but the electic motor is perfect for this application.

You clearly have not heard about dendrite growth - look it up and get back to us.

Tom 2G

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 10:01:32 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 7:05:10 PM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> > A few comments on EVs, batteries and hydrogen - since I'm in the power engineering/semiconductor business.
> > 1. EVs are a thing. They are a little primitive right now, but battery-electric is where it's going. You won't be able to buy a gas vehicle in 10 years.
> > 2. EVs are going to be like PCs were in the 1990s - obsolete before they leave the showroom. Improvements in battery tech, AI driving, inverter efficiency and sensors will advance so fast that miles-driven will not describe the value of a vehicle - they will be obsolete before they are worn out.
> > 3. Hydrogen will happen for things that need to go a long way. Aircraft, for example. You can burn it, or you can put it through a power cell. Store it compressed at 3000 psi in the main wing spar. Plenty of watt-hours.
> > 4. Batteries fail because people do stupid things to them - charge them too fast, charge them too hot, leave them too full, draw them down too empty. Electronics is not stupid - buy a decent battery managment system and you simply don't need to worry about it. For example, my wife's Audi knows not to charge past 80% normally, but if she wants the extra range, she can go on the car's app and tell it to go to 100%. It has an on-board charger that won't allow you to charge it too fast or too hot. These algorithms are known and easy to implement. My kid's Fiat500e has 25000 miles on it and the same range that it had when we picked it up used for $8000 with 6000 miles on it. New they were $35K. It's a wonderful first car for a teenager and the price was right. it's cost me pretty much nothing over 4 years - charges from our solar cells, has zero maintenance. All I need to spend money on is new tires every few weeks because the little bugger has a heavy foot.
> > 5. Electric gliders are a thing. Teething issues in the first generations, just like everything, but the electic motor is perfect for this application.
> You clearly have not heard about dendrite growth - look it up and get back to us.
>
> Tom 2G
Dendrite growth is very manageable. In the charger, you run a brief pulse discharge for about 1% of the charge time, which prevents the dendrites from forming and damaging dielectric. There was a company in Santa Clara about 10 years ago - Coherent, perhaps - that tried to sell a charger IC to the cellphone guys with this technology inside. The main problem was that while the idea worked, it was too easy to implement in software and no one wanted to pay for the IC. No idea what happened to them, but the bottom line is that to stop the dendrite issue, you simply short the battery through the charging FET for a brief period from time to time. My recollection is that you need to run the discharge pulse for longer or more frequently the faster you want to charge the cell. The limit is thermal since the discharge is a loss of charging efficiency and the FET gets hot. And that was 10 years ago - probably there are better ways now. In any case, modern Li-ion batteries that are treated well can handle a lot of charge/discharge cycles.

Dendrites growth can be prevented/braked with regenerative braking also.
Gliders use regenerative braking but only once per cycle.

Dendrites growth can be prevented/breaked with regenerative braking also.
Gliders use regenerative braking but only once per cycle.

RIP Dave Kinsell

I bought my first ship off him and partner Kurt Coles
A decked out 1958 Ka6CR in great shape.
Dave didn't want to sell it and was a little sad.

He was a prolific contributor to RAS and I liked his online presence style.

A friend of his told me he was not in the best of health and maybe that contributed to his accident.

Tailwinds Dave Kinsell

Nick
T

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 10:21:39 PM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 10:01:32 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 7:05:10 PM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> > > A few comments on EVs, batteries and hydrogen - since I'm in the power engineering/semiconductor business.
> > > 1. EVs are a thing. They are a little primitive right now, but battery-electric is where it's going. You won't be able to buy a gas vehicle in 10 years.
> > > 2. EVs are going to be like PCs were in the 1990s - obsolete before they leave the showroom. Improvements in battery tech, AI driving, inverter efficiency and sensors will advance so fast that miles-driven will not describe the value of a vehicle - they will be obsolete before they are worn out.
> > > 3. Hydrogen will happen for things that need to go a long way. Aircraft, for example. You can burn it, or you can put it through a power cell. Store it compressed at 3000 psi in the main wing spar. Plenty of watt-hours.
> > > 4. Batteries fail because people do stupid things to them - charge them too fast, charge them too hot, leave them too full, draw them down too empty. Electronics is not stupid - buy a decent battery managment system and you simply don't need to worry about it. For example, my wife's Audi knows not to charge past 80% normally, but if she wants the extra range, she can go on the car's app and tell it to go to 100%. It has an on-board charger that won't allow you to charge it too fast or too hot. These algorithms are known and easy to implement. My kid's Fiat500e has 25000 miles on it and the same range that it had when we picked it up used for $8000 with 6000 miles on it. New they were $35K. It's a wonderful first car for a teenager and the price was right. it's cost me pretty much nothing over 4 years - charges from our solar cells, has zero maintenance. All I need to spend money on is new tires every few weeks because the little bugger has a heavy foot.
> > > 5. Electric gliders are a thing. Teething issues in the first generations, just like everything, but the electic motor is perfect for this application.
> > You clearly have not heard about dendrite growth - look it up and get back to us.
> >
> > Tom 2G
> Dendrite growth is very manageable. In the charger, you run a brief pulse discharge for about 1% of the charge time, which prevents the dendrites from forming and damaging dielectric. There was a company in Santa Clara about 10 years ago - Coherent, perhaps - that tried to sell a charger IC to the cellphone guys with this technology inside. The main problem was that while the idea worked, it was too easy to implement in software and no one wanted to pay for the IC. No idea what happened to them, but the bottom line is that to stop the dendrite issue, you simply short the battery through the charging FET for a brief period from time to time. My recollection is that you need to run the discharge pulse for longer or more frequently the faster you want to charge the cell. The limit is thermal since the discharge is a loss of charging efficiency and the FET gets hot. And that was 10 years ago - probably there are better ways now. In any case, modern Li-ion batteries that are treated well can handle a lot of charge/discharge cycles.

This is false - a pulse discharge does nothing to prevent dendrites. If you think so then cite a scientific reference that confirms that theory. Dendrite growth is a primary cause of lithium battery failures. If such a simple strategy would cure this problem the manufacturers would declare victory and say the problem is solved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP9w6mGo-mE

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 7:43:01 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 10:21:39 PM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 10:01:32 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 7:05:10 PM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> > > > A few comments on EVs, batteries and hydrogen - since I'm in the power engineering/semiconductor business.
> > > > 1. EVs are a thing. They are a little primitive right now, but battery-electric is where it's going. You won't be able to buy a gas vehicle in 10 years.
> > > > 2. EVs are going to be like PCs were in the 1990s - obsolete before they leave the showroom. Improvements in battery tech, AI driving, inverter efficiency and sensors will advance so fast that miles-driven will not describe the value of a vehicle - they will be obsolete before they are worn out.
> > > > 3. Hydrogen will happen for things that need to go a long way. Aircraft, for example. You can burn it, or you can put it through a power cell. Store it compressed at 3000 psi in the main wing spar. Plenty of watt-hours.
> > > > 4. Batteries fail because people do stupid things to them - charge them too fast, charge them too hot, leave them too full, draw them down too empty. Electronics is not stupid - buy a decent battery managment system and you simply don't need to worry about it. For example, my wife's Audi knows not to charge past 80% normally, but if she wants the extra range, she can go on the car's app and tell it to go to 100%. It has an on-board charger that won't allow you to charge it too fast or too hot. These algorithms are known and easy to implement. My kid's Fiat500e has 25000 miles on it and the same range that it had when we picked it up used for $8000 with 6000 miles on it. New they were $35K. It's a wonderful first car for a teenager and the price was right. it's cost me pretty much nothing over 4 years - charges from our solar cells, has zero maintenance. All I need to spend money on is new tires every few weeks because the little bugger has a heavy foot.
> > > > 5. Electric gliders are a thing. Teething issues in the first generations, just like everything, but the electic motor is perfect for this application.
> > > You clearly have not heard about dendrite growth - look it up and get back to us.
> > >
> > > Tom 2G
> > Dendrite growth is very manageable. In the charger, you run a brief pulse discharge for about 1% of the charge time, which prevents the dendrites from forming and damaging dielectric. There was a company in Santa Clara about 10 years ago - Coherent, perhaps - that tried to sell a charger IC to the cellphone guys with this technology inside. The main problem was that while the idea worked, it was too easy to implement in software and no one wanted to pay for the IC. No idea what happened to them, but the bottom line is that to stop the dendrite issue, you simply short the battery through the charging FET for a brief period from time to time. My recollection is that you need to run the discharge pulse for longer or more frequently the faster you want to charge the cell. The limit is thermal since the discharge is a loss of charging efficiency and the FET gets hot. And that was 10 years ago - probably there are better ways now. In any case, modern Li-ion batteries that are treated well can handle a lot of charge/discharge cycles.
> This is false - a pulse discharge does nothing to prevent dendrites. If you think so then cite a scientific reference that confirms that theory. Dendrite growth is a primary cause of lithium battery failures. If such a simple strategy would cure this problem the manufacturers would declare victory and say the problem is solved.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP9w6mGo-mE

And after an extensive 10 seconds of typing and 1 second of waiting, I found:

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/817/1/012008/pdf

Which says:
Abstract. Pulse charging methods has been developed as one of the fast charging methods for
Lithium ion battery. This technique applies the continuous constant current pulse with certain
pulse width until the battery fully charged. In this research, four Lithium polymer batteries of
same type and capacity were used and subjected by several current pulses as a variable. The
phenomenon of capacity loss as an effect of charging method was analysed every ten chargedischarge cycles. Four batteries were charged using constant current (1C) for 30 minutes to fill
half of the total capacity, which then continued by pulse current of different pulse width in
order to reach full capacity of each battery. Constant current charging for one hour was also
applied to each battery as a comparison with that of pulse current charging data. The similar
degradation patterns on battery capacity were observed. Nevertheless, the percentage of
capacity loss is different. In conclusion, this method can be considered as one of the effective
charging method, owing to the smallest capacity loss and shorter charging time.

Le vendredi 15 septembre 2023 à 05:38:05 UTC+2, Doug Bailey wrote :
> And after an extensive 10 seconds of typing and 1 second of waiting, I found:
>
> https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/817/1/012008/pdf
>
> Which says:
> Abstract. Pulse charging methods has been developed as one of the fast charging methods for
> Lithium ion battery. This technique applies the continuous constant current pulse with certain
> pulse width until the battery fully charged. In this research, four Lithium polymer batteries of
> same type and capacity were used and subjected by several current pulses as a variable. The
> phenomenon of capacity loss as an effect of charging method was analysed every ten chargedischarge cycles. Four batteries were charged using constant current (1C) for 30 minutes to fill
> half of the total capacity, which then continued by pulse current of different pulse width in
> order to reach full capacity of each battery. Constant current charging for one hour was also
> applied to each battery as a comparison with that of pulse current charging data. The similar
> degradation patterns on battery capacity were observed. Nevertheless, the percentage of
> capacity loss is different. In conclusion, this method can be considered as one of the effective
> charging method, owing to the smallest capacity loss and shorter charging time.

Well, the word "dendrite" doesn't show up in this article...

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 6:23:32 AM UTC-7, Stéphane Vander Veken wrote:
> Le vendredi 15 septembre 2023 à 05:38:05 UTC+2, Doug Bailey wrote :
> > And after an extensive 10 seconds of typing and 1 second of waiting, I found:
> >
> > https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/817/1/012008/pdf
> >
> > Which says:
> > Abstract. Pulse charging methods has been developed as one of the fast charging methods for
> > Lithium ion battery. This technique applies the continuous constant current pulse with certain
> > pulse width until the battery fully charged. In this research, four Lithium polymer batteries of
> > same type and capacity were used and subjected by several current pulses as a variable. The
> > phenomenon of capacity loss as an effect of charging method was analysed every ten chargedischarge cycles. Four batteries were charged using constant current (1C) for 30 minutes to fill
> > half of the total capacity, which then continued by pulse current of different pulse width in
> > order to reach full capacity of each battery. Constant current charging for one hour was also
> > applied to each battery as a comparison with that of pulse current charging data. The similar
> > degradation patterns on battery capacity were observed. Nevertheless, the percentage of
> > capacity loss is different. In conclusion, this method can be considered as one of the effective
> > charging method, owing to the smallest capacity loss and shorter charging time.
> Well, the word "dendrite" doesn't show up in this article...

Well, here's what I know. 10 or 12 years ago I was on the due diligence team for a potential investment into a company that had an IC that managed the charge/discharge cycle of Li-ion batteries. They did extensive testing and provided a lot of data on the efficacy of the process and their scientists claimed that the observed effect was due to dissolution of the dendrites due to the discharge pulses. The technical information was comprehensive and compelling. I "thumbs down" on the investment, but not for technical reasons - I did not think that they could charge enough for the IC because the cellphone guys could not afford it and the tools guys were battery companies that shipped tools at cost, and they liked having batteries that wear out because of the high aftermarket sales. You guys can be skeptical if you want to be, but I can assure you that I spent about a month of my working life digging into this technology and, while I'm not a technologist, I was competely convinced that the pulse discharge method did what they claimed for the reason that they stated.

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 6:55:29 AM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 6:23:32 AM UTC-7, Stéphane Vander Veken wrote:
> > Le vendredi 15 septembre 2023 à 05:38:05 UTC+2, Doug Bailey wrote :
> > > And after an extensive 10 seconds of typing and 1 second of waiting, I found:
> > >
> > > https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/817/1/012008/pdf
> > >
> > > Which says:
> > > Abstract. Pulse charging methods has been developed as one of the fast charging methods for
> > > Lithium ion battery. This technique applies the continuous constant current pulse with certain
> > > pulse width until the battery fully charged. In this research, four Lithium polymer batteries of
> > > same type and capacity were used and subjected by several current pulses as a variable. The
> > > phenomenon of capacity loss as an effect of charging method was analysed every ten chargedischarge cycles. Four batteries were charged using constant current (1C) for 30 minutes to fill
> > > half of the total capacity, which then continued by pulse current of different pulse width in
> > > order to reach full capacity of each battery. Constant current charging for one hour was also
> > > applied to each battery as a comparison with that of pulse current charging data. The similar
> > > degradation patterns on battery capacity were observed. Nevertheless, the percentage of
> > > capacity loss is different. In conclusion, this method can be considered as one of the effective
> > > charging method, owing to the smallest capacity loss and shorter charging time.
> > Well, the word "dendrite" doesn't show up in this article...
> Well, here's what I know. 10 or 12 years ago I was on the due diligence team for a potential investment into a company that had an IC that managed the charge/discharge cycle of Li-ion batteries. They did extensive testing and provided a lot of data on the efficacy of the process and their scientists claimed that the observed effect was due to dissolution of the dendrites due to the discharge pulses. The technical information was comprehensive and compelling. I "thumbs down" on the investment, but not for technical reasons - I did not think that they could charge enough for the IC because the cellphone guys could not afford it and the tools guys were battery companies that shipped tools at cost, and they liked having batteries that wear out because of the high aftermarket sales. You guys can be skeptical if you want to be, but I can assure you that I spent about a month of my working life digging into this technology and, while I'm not a technologist, I was competely convinced that the pulse discharge method did what they claimed for the reason that they stated.
But that was 10 years ago. My short search for papers published in the last 2 or 3 years only found three potential methods of dealing with dendrites:
-- semi-solid interface between the electrode and electrolyte
-- compression of the cell to guide dendrite formation away from the electrolyte
-- "an internal electric field is generated between the anode and Au-modified separator to eliminate the concentration gradient of Li+.

I did not see any papers about the method you describe, so perhaps it did not provide the benefits expected in 2012.

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:57:03 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 6:55:29 AM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 6:23:32 AM UTC-7, Stéphane Vander Veken wrote:
> > > Le vendredi 15 septembre 2023 à 05:38:05 UTC+2, Doug Bailey wrote :
> > > > And after an extensive 10 seconds of typing and 1 second of waiting, I found:
> > > >
> > > > https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/817/1/012008/pdf
> > > >
> > > > Which says:
> > > > Abstract. Pulse charging methods has been developed as one of the fast charging methods for
> > > > Lithium ion battery. This technique applies the continuous constant current pulse with certain
> > > > pulse width until the battery fully charged. In this research, four Lithium polymer batteries of
> > > > same type and capacity were used and subjected by several current pulses as a variable. The
> > > > phenomenon of capacity loss as an effect of charging method was analysed every ten chargedischarge cycles. Four batteries were charged using constant current (1C) for 30 minutes to fill
> > > > half of the total capacity, which then continued by pulse current of different pulse width in
> > > > order to reach full capacity of each battery. Constant current charging for one hour was also
> > > > applied to each battery as a comparison with that of pulse current charging data. The similar
> > > > degradation patterns on battery capacity were observed. Nevertheless, the percentage of
> > > > capacity loss is different. In conclusion, this method can be considered as one of the effective
> > > > charging method, owing to the smallest capacity loss and shorter charging time.
> > > Well, the word "dendrite" doesn't show up in this article...
> > Well, here's what I know. 10 or 12 years ago I was on the due diligence team for a potential investment into a company that had an IC that managed the charge/discharge cycle of Li-ion batteries. They did extensive testing and provided a lot of data on the efficacy of the process and their scientists claimed that the observed effect was due to dissolution of the dendrites due to the discharge pulses. The technical information was comprehensive and compelling. I "thumbs down" on the investment, but not for technical reasons - I did not think that they could charge enough for the IC because the cellphone guys could not afford it and the tools guys were battery companies that shipped tools at cost, and they liked having batteries that wear out because of the high aftermarket sales. You guys can be skeptical if you want to be, but I can assure you that I spent about a month of my working life digging into this technology and, while I'm not a technologist, I was competely convinced that the pulse discharge method did what they claimed for the reason that they stated.
> But that was 10 years ago. My short search for papers published in the last 2 or 3 years only found three potential methods of dealing with dendrites:
> -- semi-solid interface between the electrode and electrolyte
> -- compression of the cell to guide dendrite formation away from the electrolyte
> -- "an internal electric field is generated between the anode and Au-modified separator to eliminate the concentration gradient of Li+.
>
> I did not see any papers about the method you describe, so perhaps it did not provide the benefits expected in 2012.

Nope - the technology definitely worked. I did the data audit, the lab audit and the customer diligence. Everyone involved was clear that it worked - very hard to get customers to go along with fraudulent claims . Commercially it did not work because it was too simple, implemented too expensively and was too easy for the Chinese to steal and incorporate in untracable software embedded in battery using systems.

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:52:26 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:57:03 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 6:55:29 AM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 6:23:32 AM UTC-7, Stéphane Vander Veken wrote:
> > > > Le vendredi 15 septembre 2023 à 05:38:05 UTC+2, Doug Bailey wrote :
> > > > > And after an extensive 10 seconds of typing and 1 second of waiting, I found:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/817/1/012008/pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > Which says:
> > > > > Abstract. Pulse charging methods has been developed as one of the fast charging methods for
> > > > > Lithium ion battery. This technique applies the continuous constant current pulse with certain
> > > > > pulse width until the battery fully charged. In this research, four Lithium polymer batteries of
> > > > > same type and capacity were used and subjected by several current pulses as a variable. The
> > > > > phenomenon of capacity loss as an effect of charging method was analysed every ten chargedischarge cycles. Four batteries were charged using constant current (1C) for 30 minutes to fill
> > > > > half of the total capacity, which then continued by pulse current of different pulse width in
> > > > > order to reach full capacity of each battery. Constant current charging for one hour was also
> > > > > applied to each battery as a comparison with that of pulse current charging data. The similar
> > > > > degradation patterns on battery capacity were observed. Nevertheless, the percentage of
> > > > > capacity loss is different. In conclusion, this method can be considered as one of the effective
> > > > > charging method, owing to the smallest capacity loss and shorter charging time.
> > > > Well, the word "dendrite" doesn't show up in this article...
> > > Well, here's what I know. 10 or 12 years ago I was on the due diligence team for a potential investment into a company that had an IC that managed the charge/discharge cycle of Li-ion batteries. They did extensive testing and provided a lot of data on the efficacy of the process and their scientists claimed that the observed effect was due to dissolution of the dendrites due to the discharge pulses. The technical information was comprehensive and compelling. I "thumbs down" on the investment, but not for technical reasons - I did not think that they could charge enough for the IC because the cellphone guys could not afford it and the tools guys were battery companies that shipped tools at cost, and they liked having batteries that wear out because of the high aftermarket sales. You guys can be skeptical if you want to be, but I can assure you that I spent about a month of my working life digging into this technology and, while I'm not a technologist, I was competely convinced that the pulse discharge method did what they claimed for the reason that they stated.
> > But that was 10 years ago. My short search for papers published in the last 2 or 3 years only found three potential methods of dealing with dendrites:
> > -- semi-solid interface between the electrode and electrolyte
> > -- compression of the cell to guide dendrite formation away from the electrolyte
> > -- "an internal electric field is generated between the anode and Au-modified separator to eliminate the concentration gradient of Li+.
> >
> > I did not see any papers about the method you describe, so perhaps it did not provide the benefits expected in 2012.
> Nope - the technology definitely worked. I did the data audit, the lab audit and the customer diligence. Everyone involved was clear that it worked - very hard to get customers to go along with fraudulent claims . Commercially it did not work because it was too simple, implemented too expensively and was too easy for the Chinese to steal and incorporate in untracable software embedded in battery using systems.
The context here is solid state cells. Perhaps the pulse technique doesn't work well on those cells? I did find a couple papers about the pulse technique, but they were about 10 years old, and studied/tested liquid electrolyte cells.