Need input from CFIs.

I plan to take my Flight Review in my Stemme. My chosen CFIG does not
have a ground launch endorsement though she's working on it, so I'm told.

I will be the PIC for the flight. Does the CFI have to have the
self-launch endorsement? None of the CFIs at Moriarty can definitively
answer the question. I don't want to ask FSDO since you get a different
answer from each office.

I have a backup CFI in mind who owns a motor glider so I'm covered or I
can use my airplane. I'm just trying to give some experience to a
relatively new CFI.
--
Dan
5J

Hey Dan,

This comes up every few years at our field. My interpretation is that:

- Part 61 Instructor Privileges does not tell you anything other than that a flight instructor needs to hold the appropriate Category and Class rating to instruct in Gliders. Doesn't say anything specific about authorizations to endorse for Ground Launch (or other Endorsements).
- So you then have to go to AC 61-94 which does say that the instructor providing instruction and endorsements needs to hold a commercial SEL rating AND a glider rating and meet the criteria/experience for "syllabus A". However, the wording in the AC is very vague in spots and has a lot of weasel words like "may" and "should". As you've already noted, different FSDOs seem to have different ideas. Also 61-94 was cancelled and I can't find a replacement, so that adds to the mystery.

That said, I've taken the stance that I won't conduct an FR in a motor glider that requires the engine for the operation (i.e. an SLMG that can only be launched by the motor like the Stemme or Taifun). I'm happy to do an FR in something like an Arcus as long as we aerotow. That comes after speaking to close friends who are experienced aviation attorneys. Case law is mixed on the topic of whether or not the Instructor is "responsible" for anything that happens when they are in the aircraft, but in my case it would be pretty hard to argue that I was qualified to positively intervene if there was a problem during a power-on activity.

Sorry I'm not more definitive, but it's one of those areas that isn't clearly spelled out by the Federales.

Erik Mann (P3)

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 12:13:52 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Need input from CFIs.
>
> I plan to take my Flight Review in my Stemme. My chosen CFIG does not
> have a ground launch endorsement though she's working on it, so I'm told.
>
> I will be the PIC for the flight. Does the CFI have to have the
> self-launch endorsement? None of the CFIs at Moriarty can definitively
> answer the question. I don't want to ask FSDO since you get a different
> answer from each office.
>
> I have a backup CFI in mind who owns a motor glider so I'm covered or I
> can use my airplane. I'm just trying to give some experience to a
> relatively new CFI.
> --
> Dan
> 5J

Thanks Erik,

Like I said, I've got alternatives.

Dan
5J

On 9/24/23 10:59, Papa3 wrote:
> Hey Dan,
>
> This comes up every few years at our field. My interpretation is that:
>
> - Part 61 Instructor Privileges does not tell you anything other than that a flight instructor needs to hold the appropriate Category and Class rating to instruct in Gliders. Doesn't say anything specific about authorizations to endorse for Ground Launch (or other Endorsements).
> - So you then have to go to AC 61-94 which does say that the instructor providing instruction and endorsements needs to hold a commercial SEL rating AND a glider rating and meet the criteria/experience for "syllabus A". However, the wording in the AC is very vague in spots and has a lot of weasel words like "may" and "should". As you've already noted, different FSDOs seem to have different ideas. Also 61-94 was cancelled and I can't find a replacement, so that adds to the mystery.
>
> That said, I've taken the stance that I won't conduct an FR in a motor glider that requires the engine for the operation (i.e. an SLMG that can only be launched by the motor like the Stemme or Taifun). I'm happy to do an FR in something like an Arcus as long as we aerotow. That comes after speaking to close friends who are experienced aviation attorneys. Case law is mixed on the topic of whether or not the Instructor is "responsible" for anything that happens when they are in the aircraft, but in my case it would be pretty hard to argue that I was qualified to positively intervene if there was a problem during a power-on activity.
>
> Sorry I'm not more definitive, but it's one of those areas that isn't clearly spelled out by the Federales.
>
> Erik Mann (P3)
>
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 12:13:52 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Need input from CFIs.
>>
>> I plan to take my Flight Review in my Stemme. My chosen CFIG does not
>> have a ground launch endorsement though she's working on it, so I'm told.
>>
>> I will be the PIC for the flight. Does the CFI have to have the
>> self-launch endorsement? None of the CFIs at Moriarty can definitively
>> answer the question. I don't want to ask FSDO since you get a different
>> answer from each office.
>>
>> I have a backup CFI in mind who owns a motor glider so I'm covered or I
>> can use my airplane. I'm just trying to give some experience to a
>> relatively new CFI.
>> --
>> Dan
>> 5J

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 9:13:52 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Need input from CFIs.
>
> I plan to take my Flight Review in my Stemme. My chosen CFIG does not
> have a ground launch endorsement though she's working on it, so I'm told.
>
> I will be the PIC for the flight. Does the CFI have to have the
> self-launch endorsement? None of the CFIs at Moriarty can definitively
> answer the question. I don't want to ask FSDO since you get a different
> answer from each office.
>
> I have a backup CFI in mind who owns a motor glider so I'm covered or I
> can use my airplane. I'm just trying to give some experience to a
> relatively new CFI.
> --
> Dan
> 5J
Did you mean "self launch" instead of "ground launch"?

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 3:05:58 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Thanks Erik,
>
> Like I said, I've got alternatives.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 9/24/23 10:59, Papa3 wrote:
> > Hey Dan,
> >
> > This comes up every few years at our field. My interpretation is that:
> >
> > - Part 61 Instructor Privileges does not tell you anything other than that a flight instructor needs to hold the appropriate Category and Class rating to instruct in Gliders. Doesn't say anything specific about authorizations to endorse for Ground Launch (or other Endorsements).
> > - So you then have to go to AC 61-94 which does say that the instructor providing instruction and endorsements needs to hold a commercial SEL rating AND a glider rating and meet the criteria/experience for "syllabus A". However, the wording in the AC is very vague in spots and has a lot of weasel words like "may" and "should". As you've already noted, different FSDOs seem to have different ideas. Also 61-94 was cancelled and I can't find a replacement, so that adds to the mystery.
> >
> > That said, I've taken the stance that I won't conduct an FR in a motor glider that requires the engine for the operation (i.e. an SLMG that can only be launched by the motor like the Stemme or Taifun). I'm happy to do an FR in something like an Arcus as long as we aerotow. That comes after speaking to close friends who are experienced aviation attorneys. Case law is mixed on the topic of whether or not the Instructor is "responsible" for anything that happens when they are in the aircraft, but in my case it would be pretty hard to argue that I was qualified to positively intervene if there was a problem during a power-on activity.
> >
> > Sorry I'm not more definitive, but it's one of those areas that isn't clearly spelled out by the Federales.
> >
> > Erik Mann (P3)
> >
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 12:13:52 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> Need input from CFIs.
> >>
> >> I plan to take my Flight Review in my Stemme. My chosen CFIG does not
> >> have a ground launch endorsement though she's working on it, so I'm told.
> >>
> >> I will be the PIC for the flight. Does the CFI have to have the
> >> self-launch endorsement? None of the CFIs at Moriarty can definitively
> >> answer the question. I don't want to ask FSDO since you get a different
> >> answer from each office.
> >>
> >> I have a backup CFI in mind who owns a motor glider so I'm covered or I
> >> can use my airplane. I'm just trying to give some experience to a
> >> relatively new CFI.
> >> --
> >> Dan
> >> 5J
So it says the Glider Flying Handbook is in revision?

Data from FAA Web re AC61-94:
Date cancelled
2023-07-25
Cancellation notes
Canceled per Memo: The AC is outdated and no longer necessary. More up to dare information is available in the current and also future (now in draft) Glider Flying Handbook.

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:19:55 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 9:13:52 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Need input from CFIs.
> >
> > I plan to take my Flight Review in my Stemme. My chosen CFIG does not
> > have a ground launch endorsement though she's working on it, so I'm told.
> >
> > I will be the PIC for the flight. Does the CFI have to have the
> > self-launch endorsement? None of the CFIs at Moriarty can definitively
> > answer the question. I don't want to ask FSDO since you get a different
> > answer from each office.
> >
> > I have a backup CFI in mind who owns a motor glider so I'm covered or I
> > can use my airplane. I'm just trying to give some experience to a
> > relatively new CFI.
> > --
> > Dan
> > 5J
> Did you mean "self launch" instead of "ground launch"?
I did. I'm sure Dan did as well since I'm guessing he's not planning on winch launching his Stemme any time soon. Although, the very thought of that creates some very interesting questions regulatory wise :-)

Yes, "Self Launch".

Dan
5J

On 9/24/23 16:19, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 9:13:52 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Need input from CFIs.
>>
>> I plan to take my Flight Review in my Stemme. My chosen CFIG does not
>> have a ground launch endorsement though she's working on it, so I'm told.
>>
>> I will be the PIC for the flight. Does the CFI have to have the
>> self-launch endorsement? None of the CFIs at Moriarty can definitively
>> answer the question. I don't want to ask FSDO since you get a different
>> answer from each office.
>>
>> I have a backup CFI in mind who owns a motor glider so I'm covered or I
>> can use my airplane. I'm just trying to give some experience to a
>> relatively new CFI.
>> --
>> Dan
>> 5J
> Did you mean "self launch" instead of "ground launch"?

Ya... Just make three wraps of rope around the main gear and have the
tug or winch guillotine let go on the other end.

Seems there's no definitive answer which puts me in a position of a
pioneer. Get it done and, if required, get forgiveness. Isn't any
single engine airplane a "self-launch" motorglider when the engine quits?

Dan
5J

On 9/25/23 07:59, Papa3 wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:19:55 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 9:13:52 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Need input from CFIs.
>>>
>>> I plan to take my Flight Review in my Stemme. My chosen CFIG does not
>>> have a ground launch endorsement though she's working on it, so I'm told.
>>>
>>> I will be the PIC for the flight. Does the CFI have to have the
>>> self-launch endorsement? None of the CFIs at Moriarty can definitively
>>> answer the question. I don't want to ask FSDO since you get a different
>>> answer from each office.
>>>
>>> I have a backup CFI in mind who owns a motor glider so I'm covered or I
>>> can use my airplane. I'm just trying to give some experience to a
>>> relatively new CFI.
>>> --
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>> Did you mean "self launch" instead of "ground launch"?
>
> I did. I'm sure Dan did as well since I'm guessing he's not planning on winch launching his Stemme any time soon. Although, the very thought of that creates some very interesting questions regulatory wise :-)
>

On 9/25/2023 9:59 AM, Papa3 wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:19:55 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Did you mean "self launch" instead of "ground launch"?
>
> I did. I'm sure Dan did as well since I'm guessing he's not planning on winch launching his Stemme any time soon. Although, the very thought of that creates some very interesting questions regulatory wise :-)
>

Well I wonder what launches are NOT a "ground launch". Dropping the
glider from a balloon? That's been done. How about dropping from an
airplane?

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 7:47:24 PM UTC-6, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 9/25/2023 9:59 AM, Papa3 wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:19:55 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> Did you mean "self launch" instead of "ground launch"?
> >
> > I did. I'm sure Dan did as well since I'm guessing he's not planning on winch launching his Stemme any time soon. Although, the very thought of that creates some very interesting questions regulatory wise :-)
> >
> Well I wonder what launches are NOT a "ground launch". Dropping the
> glider from a balloon? That's been done. How about dropping from an
> airplane?
Helicopter drops have been done. So have airplane drops as Virgin Galactic is a glider.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 6:47:24 PM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 9/25/2023 9:59 AM, Papa3 wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:19:55 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> Did you mean "self launch" instead of "ground launch"?
> >
> > I did. I'm sure Dan did as well since I'm guessing he's not planning on winch launching his Stemme any time soon. Although, the very thought of that creates some very interesting questions regulatory wise :-)
> >
> Well I wonder what launches are NOT a "ground launch". Dropping the
> glider from a balloon? That's been done. How about dropping from an
> airplane?
Aerotow = the launcher (towplane) is in the air; ground launch = the launcher is on the ground (winch, car tow, bungee, legs and feet, gravity)

Eric