On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
....
> > On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
> Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group.. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:

* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)

Eric

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > ...
> > > > On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
> > > Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
> > There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
> >
> > * have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
> > * make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
> > * fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
> >
> > Eric
> No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTP
Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.

Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 9:20:02 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > ...
> > > > > On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
> > > > Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
> > > There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
> > >
> > > * have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
> > > * make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
> > > * fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
> > >
> > > Eric
> > No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTP
> Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
>
> Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
And also, it's the "I want more fun" button: no need to head home after a restart if the conditions are still giving good soaring! Most of us have had the galling experience of landing away from home, then standing on the ground looking at all the great clouds around us, and our buddies shooting by way overhead. Let the button do it's magic, and you won't have that experience again.

Eric

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 11:45:08 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > > > On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
> > > > > Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
> > > > There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
> > > >
> > > > * have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
> > > > * make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
> > > > * fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
> > > >
> > > > Eric
> > > No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTP
> > Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
> >
> > Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
> Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.
> On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist
They "must" exercise better judgement? Many of us know pilots that should not be flying motorgliders, but can manage a towed glider adequately. Do any of us know someone who should be flying motorgliders because they don't do well with a towed glider?

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 11:45:08 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > > > On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
> > > > > Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
> > > > There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
> > > >
> > > > * have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
> > > > * make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
> > > > * fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
> > > >
> > > > Eric
> > > No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTP
> > Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
> >
> > Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
> Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.
> On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist
"There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed." Right. You believe that now, but there will be one of those days where you look towards home and dying clouds as cirrus approaches, and then look the other direction where your friends are frolicking under sunny skies and puffy cu, a direction that will almost certainly require landing away from home if the engine isn't used. Which way will you go?

Before you answer, remember how your judgement became impaired when you stepped into the motorglider 8^)

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:11:04 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 4:03:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 11:45:08 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
> > > > > > > Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
> > > > > > There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
> > > > > > * make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
> > > > > > * fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eric
> > > > > No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTP
> > > > Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
> > > >
> > > > Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
> > > Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.
> > > On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist
> > They "must" exercise better judgement? Many of us know pilots that should not be flying motorgliders, but can manage a towed glider adequately. Do any of us know someone who should be flying motorgliders because they don't do well with a towed glider?
> The list is long and distinguished. OBTP
I should have made clear I was talking about safe flying, not soaring. That is the context of this discussion, but I can see my question wasn't specific enough.

Simple for me. Head to the puffy clouds and soaring and, when it's time
to go home AND YOU'RE OVER A LANDABLE FIELD, extend the engine. If it
works, GREAT!, if not, land at that field.

Dan
5J

On 10/14/23 14:14, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 11:45:08 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
>>>>>> Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
>>>>> There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
>>>>>
>>>>> * have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
>>>>> * make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
>>>>> * fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>> No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTP
>>> Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
>>>
>>> Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
>> Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.
>> On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist
> "There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed." Right. You believe that now, but there will be one of those days where you look towards home and dying clouds as cirrus approaches, and then look the other direction where your friends are frolicking under sunny skies and puffy cu, a direction that will almost certainly require landing away from home if the engine isn't used. Which way will you go?
>
> Before you answer, remember how your judgement became impaired when you stepped into the motorglider 8^)

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 2:04:44 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Simple for me. Head to the puffy clouds and soaring and, when it's time
> to go home AND YOU'RE OVER A LANDABLE FIELD, extend the engine. If it
> works, GREAT!, if not, land at that field.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 10/14/23 14:14, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 11:45:08 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>>> On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
> >>>>>> Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
> >>>>> There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
> >>>>> * make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
> >>>>> * fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Eric
> >>>> No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTP
> >>> Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button.. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
> >>>
> >>> Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
> >> Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.
> >> On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist
> > "There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed." Right. You believe that now, but there will be one of those days where you look towards home and dying clouds as cirrus approaches, and then look the other direction where your friends are frolicking under sunny skies and puffy cu, a direction that will almost certainly require landing away from home if the engine isn't used. Which way will you go?
> >
> > Before you answer, remember how your judgement became impaired when you stepped into the motorglider 8^)

Trying to explain simple logic to Boobie is about as easy as explaining peace and love to Hamas.

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 2:45:08 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > > > On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
> > > > > Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
> > > > There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
> > > >
> > > > * have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
> > > > * make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
> > > > * fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
> > > >
> > > > Eric
> > > No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTP
> > Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
> >
> > Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
> Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.
> On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist

Hazardous thought we've all heard- Hold my beer- watch this!
Another I have discovered- I can do this-I have a motor.
I've made 3 safe landings with the engine out when the perfect start did not happen. All were calculated risks that did not work over good landing places.
FWIW
UH

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 7:42:00 AM UTC-7, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 2:45:08 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > > On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
> > > > > > Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTP
> > > > > There are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
> > > > >
> > > > > * have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
> > > > > * make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
> > > > > * fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
> > > > >
> > > > > Eric
> > > > No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTP
> > > Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button.. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
> > >
> > > Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
> > Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed..
> > On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement.. Old Bob, The Purist
> Hazardous thought we've all heard- Hold my beer- watch this!
> Another I have discovered- I can do this-I have a motor.
> I've made 3 safe landings with the engine out when the perfect start did not happen. All were calculated risks that did not work over good landing places.
> FWIW
> UH

I’d add one more issue that can affect the decision to attempt a start. No crew! The trailer isn’t hooked up! I know one Stemme owner that didn’t even own a trailer, he had to retrieved the ship with a rented U haul truck! I’m sure these were the thoughts going through the mind of the PIC m/g pilot after the motor didn’t start, right over a landable strip!
He retracted the engine and attempted a 5 mile glide to Minden with 1500’! He almost made it but wasn’t able to clear the perimeter fence…………… he is no longer with us, because it was going to be very inconvenient to plunk the ship down short of home base!
Food for thought,
JJ

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 10:42:00 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> Hazardous thought we've all heard- Hold my beer- watch this!
> Another I have discovered- I can do this-I have a motor.
> I've made 3 safe landings with the engine out when the perfect start did not happen.
> All were calculated risks that did not work over good landing places.
> FWIW
> UH

Yep, Please think, and teach:
Landing is Plan A