Does anyone know of a really loud and obnoxious 12 V alarm or buzzer good for a independent gear warning system? It needs to be loud enough for a 2 place glider. I may mount it between the seats.
Thanks
ROY

On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 4:32:35 PM UTC-6, Roy B. wrote:
> Does anyone know of a really loud and obnoxious 12 V alarm or buzzer good for a independent gear warning system? It needs to be loud enough for a 2 place glider. I may mount it between the seats.
> Thanks
> ROY

Personally, I find that beepers and buzzers are inferior to red/blue flashing LED lights. There are enough different toots, honks, dings and bleeps coming from variometers, Flarm warnings, occasional cell phone notifications and other electronic devices that another horn that is rarely experienced could be ignored or missed in a stressful landing situation. Plus, some beepers and horns are in a sonic range that may not be heard if your audible range has deteriorated due to age. But since NOTHING in my cockpit lights up, I NEVER miss the flashing cop lights on the panel.

Thanks for your thoughts Mark, but a flashing light is problematic in a two place glider. I need an audio warning.
ROY

On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 6:32:35 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> Does anyone know of a really loud and obnoxious 12 V alarm or buzzer good for a independent gear warning system? It needs to be loud enough for a 2 place glider. I may mount it between the seats.
> Thanks
> ROY
Any one of a number piezoelectric buzzers, some have a driver board to pick a sound. Another is an auto/truck backup alarm, they run on 12VDC. Think of trucks or delivery vans (UPS, FedEx, Amazon).
I don't have one, just ideas.

On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:55:42 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> Thanks for your thoughts Mark, but a flashing light is problematic in a two place glider. I need an audio warning.
> ROY

I have a new, unused one that's loud and is available. Piezo Sounder Hi/Lo by Philmore No. BB20 3-20VDC. This one gives a warble-like sound. I also have a smaller one too that might be available. Are you the Mr. Dawson who has that great YT channel? NC if that's the case.
Dee

https://www.amazon.com/Incredibles-Incredible-Collapsible-Elasti-Arm-Extends/dp/B074WCJRJ4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2O9TGYKUKEDSG&keywords=spring+loaded+boxing+glove+prank&qid=1698375113&sprefix=Boxing+glove+on+a+spring%2Caps%2C664&sr=8-2

A couple of these might work better than lights or horns
Nick
T

On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 10:55:20 AM UTC+8, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
> https://www.amazon.com/Incredibles-Incredible-Collapsible-Elasti-Arm-Extends/dp/B074WCJRJ4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2O9TGYKUKEDSG&keywords=spring+loaded+boxing+glove+prank&qid=1698375113&sprefix=Boxing+glove+on+a+spring%2Caps%2C664&sr=8-2
>
> A couple of these might work better than lights or horns
> Nick
> T
For my gliding club in Australia, in our two DG1000 2-seaters, I wired a red warning LED on each panel as well as the buzzer between the seats. The 2x LEDs are simply in parallel.

We incorporate a system test switch (in the DG1000 there is a switch on each of the front and rear panels so that students can perform the test) that shorts out only the gear down/up sensor.

So to test, press the test button and crack the airbrake - if system functional then the 2x LEDs light and buzzer sounds. Same setup standard in our club single seaters so students learn on the 2-seaters what they apply in the single seaters. Importantly, testing the system pre-flight 'tunes' the ear and eyes to what the alarm signals.

After launch release and raising the wheel, standard club procedure is to crack open the airbrake for a second to check the wheel warning activates.

In the UK there have been several accidents where a pilot has been warned that the gear isn't down just before landing. This distraction at a critical time has caused a very heavy landing and injury to the pilot. In at least one case it caused permanent disablement. Consequently the British Gliding Association publication "Managing Flying Risks" states:
"Fitting of undercarriage warning systems is not recommended because they may lead the pilot to lower the undercarriage during the final stage of landing resulting in an accident. For the same reason, if a glider is seen wheel-up on the approach, no attempt should be made to warn that pilot."
See: https://members.gliding.co.uk/bga-safety-management/managing-flying-risk-index/managing-flying-risk-in-flight-equipment/

A wheel-up landing on an airfield with a controlled round-out may cause damage to the glider and hurt pride but is very unlikely to cause injury.

On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 5:32:35 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> Does anyone know of a really loud and obnoxious 12 V alarm or buzzer good for a independent gear warning system? It needs to be loud enough for a 2 place glider. I may mount it between the seats.
> Thanks
> ROY

ROY

To me the "gold standard" alarm buzzer is the Mallory Sonalert type. Bullet proof and loud. See https://www.amazon.com/s?k=mallory+sonalert for all the varieties available.

I talk about gear warning systems in my how-to presentation on the subject => See https://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/#gearwarning

Enjoy.

- John (OHM)

One of those should be sufficient if mounted in the seat pan.

Dan
5J

On 10/26/23 20:55, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
> https://www.amazon.com/Incredibles-Incredible-Collapsible-Elasti-Arm-Extends/dp/B074WCJRJ4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2O9TGYKUKEDSG&keywords=spring+loaded+boxing+glove+prank&qid=1698375113&sprefix=Boxing+glove+on+a+spring%2Caps%2C664&sr=8-2
>
> A couple of these might work better than lights or horns
> Nick
> T

I fly with a Naviter Oudie 2. It gives a gear warning at about 600' agl in the pattern. It's pretty hard to miss and forces a double check "just in case".

It also gives a prompt to retract the gear when you enter your first thermal.

Lou
AG

On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 4:19:48 PM UTC-7, MNLou wrote:
> I fly with a Naviter Oudie 2. It gives a gear warning at about 600' ag

Lou
Thanks. The LX 90xxs do that also and the warning height is adjustable - but 1) you need to make sure that warnings are "on" on the screen you are landing with (there are at least 3 screens and possibly 6 or 9), and 2) I am frequently jumping from front seat PIC to rear seat PIC in the glider depending on the flight purpose and it's rare that both computers have warnings set up on each page and identically. And - if I had the presence to think on which computer is in front of me and which page it's on, and "is the gear warning on?" I'd probably just drop the gear and be done with it. So that is why a independent system tied to a switch on the dive brake makes sense. It's simple and goes off when the brake handle is unlocked with the gear still up regardless of where i am sitting and regardless of the computer settings. The reason for my original post was to find an alarm that was loud enough for a 2 place glider regardless of where the alarm is located.

I respect the idea behind the BGA suggestion ( not to use a gear warn at all) but disagree. They presuppose that you will unlock the brakes very close to the ground. If you do that you are probably already low, slow, and close to trouble. Most gear up landings happen because the pilot got distracted from the normal landing routine and checklist.
ROY

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 02:00:42 UTC+1, Roy B. wrote:

> I respect the idea behind the BGA suggestion ( not to use a gear warn at all) but disagree. They presuppose that you will unlock the brakes very close to the ground. If you do that you are probably already low, slow, and close to trouble. Most gear up landings happen because the pilot got distracted from the normal landing routine and checklist.
> ROY

Roy, I think you are right that most gear up landings happen because the pilot got distracted from the normal landing routine and checklist. I suggest that if you realise that you are already low, slow, and close to trouble that isn't your normal landing routine and you are likely to be distracted.. In that situation it is more likely than usual that you will omit to put the gear down and lock it.

I suggest that if you realise that you are already low, slow, and close to trouble that isn't your normal landing routine and you are likely to be distracted. In that situation it is more likely than usual that you will omit to put the gear down and lock it.

And somehow a gear warning is going to do nothing? Every approach I have ever done, whether landing at the home strip or an outlanding has always included an airbrake actuation while setting up for the downwind leg. If the gear isn't down, the warning happens at a high enough altitude to allow for lowering it with plenty of time. Nobody I know has ever related a story of lowering the landing gear on final approach, only a few feet above the ground. Yes, outlandings can be stressful, but once you are below safe thermalling altitude, you should drop the gear and concentrate on planning your pattern and approach. Maybe they do things differently in the UK, but not where I fly.

And, yes, I had a gear up landing once. I was fiddling with the gear switch programming on a new LXNAV instrument but couldn't get it to cooperate. So I flew the final glide with the gear down and like a dumbass, raised it on the downwind leg. Embarrassing and expensive.

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 14:57:41 UTC+1, Mark628CA wrote:
> Maybe they do things differently in the UK, but not where I fly.
>
> And, yes, I had a gear up landing once. I was fiddling with the gear switch programming on a new LXNAV instrument but couldn't get it to cooperate. So I flew the final glide with the gear down and like a dumbass, raised it on the downwind leg. Embarrassing and expensive.

I'm sure there are differences between the UK and other countries and they may be relevant to the advisability of fitting a gear warning. I too have had an embarrassing and expensive ($$$$) gear up landing. I would rather have that multiple times than spend the rest of my life as a paraplegic confined to a wheelchair as has happened after an attempt to put the wheel down at the last moment. You may not agree with the BGA recommendation against fitting a warning system - I am happy to accept your view about this. Nonetheless I commend to you this bit of BGA advice "if a glider is seen wheel-up on the approach, no attempt should be made to warn that pilot". In particular do not call on the radio.

I'm sure many of us have flown around with the gear down and then raised it on the downwind check. One way to try to prevent making this mistake is to carry out the ACTION of putting the gear down and follow it by a CHECK that the gear lever is now in the gear down and locked position by looking at the word or symbol alongside the gear handle position.

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 7:37:01 AM UTC-7, Phil King wrote:
> On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 14:57:41 UTC+1, Mark628CA wrote:
> > Maybe they do things differently in the UK, but not where I fly.
> >
> > And, yes, I had a gear up landing once. I was fiddling with the gear switch programming on a new LXNAV instrument but couldn't get it to cooperate.. So I flew the final glide with the gear down and like a dumbass, raised it on the downwind leg. Embarrassing and expensive.
> I'm sure there are differences between the UK and other countries and they may be relevant to the advisability of fitting a gear warning. I too have had an embarrassing and expensive ($$$$) gear up landing. I would rather have that multiple times than spend the rest of my life as a paraplegic confined to a wheelchair as has happened after an attempt to put the wheel down at the last moment. You may not agree with the BGA recommendation against fitting a warning system - I am happy to accept your view about this. Nonetheless I commend to you this bit of BGA advice "if a glider is seen wheel-up on the approach, no attempt should be made to warn that pilot". In particular do not call on the radio.
>
> I'm sure many of us have flown around with the gear down and then raised it on the downwind check. One way to try to prevent making this mistake is to carry out the ACTION of putting the gear down and follow it by a CHECK that the gear lever is now in the gear down and locked position by looking at the word or symbol alongside the gear handle position.
My gear warning systems have prevented three gear up landings. They warn me in plenty of time because I always do spoiler a check on downwind; worst case, it will activate on base leg or high final, where I have enough time to lower the gear. So, three times I avoided damage to my glider and didn't block a runway for the time required remove the glider; also, a gear up landing in a field increases the risk of a potentially serious injury from rocks and more. Over 40 years of flying in the US, I've seen several pilots saved from gear up landings, one of whom had already flared. All were very happy to get the warning. I can not recall anyone being injured after getting a warning. And, the number of gear up landings prevented by warning systems is far higher than the few had to be warned.

Perhaps, the UK advice is primarily directed at pilots flying from wide grass fields that allow landings to continue despite the wheel-up glider on it, grass that can cushion a hard landing, and with lots of club members around to help remove the glider from the runway. That advice the only time I have heard gear warning systems are a poor idea.

On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 7:50:30 AM UTC-5, Phil King wrote:
> In the UK there have been several accidents where a pilot has been warned that the gear isn't down just before landing. This distraction at a critical time has caused a very heavy landing and injury to the pilot. In at least one case it caused permanent disablement. Consequently the British Gliding Association publication "Managing Flying Risks" states:
> "Fitting of undercarriage warning systems is not recommended because they may lead the pilot to lower the undercarriage during the final stage of landing resulting in an accident. For the same reason, if a glider is seen wheel-up on the approach, no attempt should be made to warn that pilot."
> See: https://members.gliding.co.uk/bga-safety-management/managing-flying-risk-index/managing-flying-risk-in-flight-equipment/
>
> A wheel-up landing on an airfield with a controlled round-out may cause damage to the glider and hurt pride but is very unlikely to cause injury.
Phil,

Here in the US we are taught as part of a landing check list is
testing the air brakes. I use FUSTALL (flaps, undercarriage, speed to fly, trim,
airbrakes, look and land). I assume the UK teaches something similar.
, As this check list is typically done before the downwind leg
of the circuit there is plenty of time to react to an alarm while 800-1000ft
In the air. Having no alarm system is a different matter entirely of course.

I simply cannot understand why a gear warning is a detrimental thing and
the BGA's reasoning as mentioned in your quote.

Can you detail more on this topic?

Thanks John (OHM)

On Friday, 27 October 2023 at 14:50:30 UTC+2, Phil King wrote:
> Consequently the British Gliding Association publication "Managing Flying Risks" states:
> "Fitting of undercarriage warning systems is not recommended because they may lead the pilot to lower the undercarriage during the final stage of landing resulting in an accident.

This is single most stupid thing I've heard in a very, very long time.

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 18:43:34 UTC+1, krasw wrote:
> On Friday, 27 October 2023 at 14:50:30 UTC+2, Phil King wrote:
> > Consequently the British Gliding Association publication "Managing Flying Risks" states:
> > "Fitting of undercarriage warning systems is not recommended because they may lead the pilot to lower the undercarriage during the final stage of landing resulting in an accident.
> This is single most stupid thing I've heard in a very, very long time.

Failsafe checks do sometimes fail. I have always disagreed with the BGA advice on gear warnings and always have some sort of warning (currently the LXNAV warning). I agree with Roy B that the BGA advice seems to imply that the brakes won't be opened until it is too low to safely put the gear down, which is odd. On the other hand advising that ground observers should not radio a "gear not down" warning at the last moment is sensible, as is the piulot confirming "gear down and locked" on the downwind call

On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 12:15:04 PM UTC-4, John Galloway wrote:
> On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 18:43:34 UTC+1, krasw wrote:
> > On Friday, 27 October 2023 at 14:50:30 UTC+2, Phil King wrote:
> > > Consequently the British Gliding Association publication "Managing Flying Risks" states:
> > > "Fitting of undercarriage warning systems is not recommended because they may lead the pilot to lower the undercarriage during the final stage of landing resulting in an accident.
> > This is single most stupid thing I've heard in a very, very long time.
> Failsafe checks do sometimes fail. I have always disagreed with the BGA advice on gear warnings and always have some sort of warning (currently the LXNAV warning). I agree with Roy B that the BGA advice seems to imply that the brakes won't be opened until it is too low to safely put the gear down, which is odd. On the other hand advising that ground observers should not radio a "gear not down" warning at the last moment is sensible, as is the pilot confirming "gear down and locked" on the downwind call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There is no real failsafe cure. I remember a story about a
USAF jet fighter that landed gear-up back in the 1950's or 60's.
When the investigators asked the accident pilot why he didn't
respond or react to radio calls telling him that his gear was still
up, his response was that the gear warning horn was blaring so
loudly that it drowned out all incoming radio calls.

Mike Opitz
RO