After I used kil-a-wat to monitor electric use, we thought of using doppler
ultrasound and even magnetism (water is ionic, after all) to track water end
even steam usage. I never got a gadget cheap enuf. This was fifteen years
ago. Has anything changed? I imagine there should be ways of using DSP to
scavenge data from conventional celfon sensors, but that would freak out the
instrument hardware vendors. I once got the FLIR expo booth convulsing when I
thought I found an IR imaging apk that really worked.

--
Vasos Panagiotopoulos panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---

On Sat, 26 Aug 2023 17:04:02 -0000 (UTC),
vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

>After I used kil-a-wat to monitor electric use, we thought of using doppler
>ultrasound and even magnetism (water is ionic, after all) to track water end
>even steam usage. I never got a gadget cheap enuf. This was fifteen years
>ago. Has anything changed? I imagine there should be ways of using DSP to
>scavenge data from conventional celfon sensors, but that would freak out the
>instrument hardware vendors. I once got the FLIR expo booth convulsing when I
>thought I found an IR imaging apk that really worked.

Perhaps an ultrasonic flow meter? Plenty to choose from:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=ultrasonic+flow+meter&tbm=isch>
Things can get messy with diffraction through multi layer pipes,
partially filled pipes (air and water), varying temperatures, changing
fluid composition without tweaking the settings in the meter, etc.
Note that there are different types (Doppler and transit time) for
different use cases:
<https://www.iqsdirectory.com/articles/flow-meter/ultrasonic-flow-meters.html>

Saturated steam (with water droplets) will work with ultrasonic flow
meters. Dry steam (no water droplets) will be a problem.
<https://www.spiraxsarco.com/learn-about-steam/flowmetering/types-of-steam-flowmeter>

Hint: The reason that Kill-a-Watt meters are so popular is that the
AC wall plug is standardized and found everywhere. That's not the
case with fluid flow, which can have a wide variety of fluid types,
fittings, plumbing etc. The most common fluid pipe and fitting is
probably a 3/4" garden hose and 3/4"-11.5 NH fitting.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 6:41:38 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2023 17:04:02 -0000 (UTC),
> vjp...@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
>
> >After I used kil-a-wat to monitor electric use, we thought of using doppler
> >ultrasound and even magnetism (water is ionic, after all) to track water end
> >even steam usage. I never got a gadget cheap enuf. This was fifteen years
> >ago. Has anything changed? I imagine there should be ways of using DSP to
> >scavenge data from conventional celfon sensors, but that would freak out the
> >instrument hardware vendors. I once got the FLIR expo booth convulsing when I
> >thought I found an IR imaging apk that really worked.
> Perhaps an ultrasonic flow meter? Plenty to choose from:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=ultrasonic+flow+meter&tbm=isch>
>

Those are some pricey meters.

I've seen ultrasonic meters used for sanitary sewer flow rates, but usually they're mounted above a notched weir and actually just measure the height.

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 17:46:49 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 6:41:38?AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Aug 2023 17:04:02 -0000 (UTC),
>> vjp...@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
>>
>> >After I used kil-a-wat to monitor electric use, we thought of using doppler
>> >ultrasound and even magnetism (water is ionic, after all) to track water end
>> >even steam usage. I never got a gadget cheap enuf. This was fifteen years
>> >ago. Has anything changed? I imagine there should be ways of using DSP to
>> >scavenge data from conventional celfon sensors, but that would freak out the
>> >instrument hardware vendors. I once got the FLIR expo booth convulsing when I
>> >thought I found an IR imaging apk that really worked.

>> Perhaps an ultrasonic flow meter? Plenty to choose from:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=ultrasonic+flow+meter&tbm=isch>

>Those are some pricey meters.

Well, if you want cheap, there are paddle wheel flow meters
<https://www.google.com/search?q=paddle+wheel+flow+meter&tbm=isch>
and turbine flow meters:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=turbine+flow+meter&tbm=isch>
The problem is these require the paddle wheel or turbine to be
inserted inside the pipe, where they also partly obstruct the fluid
flow. However, they are cheaper than ultrasonic.

Accurate, reliable, cheap. Pick two.

>I've seen ultrasonic meters used for sanitary sewer flow rates,
>but usually they're mounted above a notched weir and actually
>just measure the height.

They also use weirs to somewhat limit clogs from FOG (fat, oil and
grease) and fatberg obstructions to easily accessible locations. You
really don't want to deal with a fatberg:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=fat+in+sanitary+sewer&tbm=isch>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=fatberg&tbm=isch>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 12:23:42 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> >Those are some pricey meters.
> Well, if you want cheap, there are paddle wheel flow meters
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=paddle+wheel+flow+meter&tbm=isch>
> and turbine flow meters:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=turbine+flow+meter&tbm=isch>
> The problem is these require the paddle wheel or turbine to be
> inserted inside the pipe, where they also partly obstruct the fluid
> flow. However, they are cheaper than ultrasonic.
>

It's been a while since I was hands on in any mechanical rooms. But I vaguely recall we measured flow by pressure differential across an orifice. A flow meter was used for something like make-up water to a boiler, where accuracy wasn't critical and flow volume small. But for a boiler or cooling loop the pressure differential was reliable and cheap. And with 400 or so boiler rooms cost was important.

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 05:26:59 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 12:23:42?AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> >Those are some pricey meters.
>>
>> Well, if you want cheap, there are paddle wheel flow meters
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=paddle+wheel+flow+meter&tbm=isch>
>> and turbine flow meters:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=turbine+flow+meter&tbm=isch>
>> The problem is these require the paddle wheel or turbine to be
>> inserted inside the pipe, where they also partly obstruct the fluid
>> flow. However, they are cheaper than ultrasonic.

>It's been a while since I was hands on in any mechanical rooms. But I vaguely recall we measured flow by pressure differential across an orifice. A flow meter was used for something like make-up water to a boiler, where accuracy wasn't critical and flow volume small. But for a boiler or cooling loop the pressure differential was reliable and cheap. And with 400 or so boiler rooms cost was important.

Welcome to fluid dynamics and Bernoulli's equation:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle>
Works for any kind of fluid flow (air, gasses, water, sewage, etc).

However, there's a problem with using pressure difference to measure
fluid flow rate. The plumbing and sensors needed to measure the
changes in pressure caused by changes in fluid flow must be designed
and built into the machinery in advance. In other words, one must
plan and design ahead. That's where ultrasonic flow meters are best.
They can be retrofitted into almost any machine by attaching the
transducers to the outside of the plumbing. No need to drill holes,
insert obstructions, pitot tubes or deal with internal mechanisms
(paddle wheels and turbines). Ultrasonic sensors can be temporary or
permanent as needed. If you're measuring flow rate in an open
channel, adding additional hardware is not a major problem. However,
inside a sealed pipe, ultrasonic is best.

400 boiler rooms in one location or scattered across the planet?

Drivel: I hate plumbing.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 1:44:55 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> 400 boiler rooms in one location or scattered across the planet?
>
> Drivel: I hate plumbing.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com

Military base. Not that much different from a college campus - barracks instead of dormitories, DFACs instead of cafeterias, lots of admin buildings and classrooms, maintenance shops, etc. Most of it was ancient when I started, about half rebuilt or new by the time my 30 years was up. Interesting job as standards and technology changed through the years.