On Aug/12/2022 at 04:53, Doctor Who wrote :
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 21:21:09 -0700 (PDT), pnn calmagorod
> <calmagorod@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 22:32:36 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>>> pnn calmagorod <calma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Il giorno mercoled? 10 agosto 2022 alle 16:49:06 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>>>>> Doctor Who <d...@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:42:09 +0300, o...@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>> "thermal effects, which produce the illusion of a reactionless drive".
>>>>>> which isn't our case!
>>>>> Unfortunately, still to be proven. We'll be suitably impressed once
>>>>> you are able to reproduce the claimed thrust effects in a vacuum.
>>>>
>>>> H.Lorentz obtained nobel prize for his Lorentz force without no
>>>> experiments in vacuum :-)
>>> Lorentz shared the 1902 Nobel Prize in Physics with Pieter Zeeman for
>>> the discovery and theoretical explanation of the Zeeman effect, which is
>>> the effect of splitting of a spectral line into several components in
>>> the presence of a static magnetic field.
>>>
>>> The Nobel prize was not awarded for the the eponymous Lorentz force
>>> which is the combination of electric and magnetic force on a point
>>> charge due to electromagnetic fields.
>>>
>>> Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo is not enough that you will
>>> be persecuted by an unkind establishment, you must also be right.
>>> -- Robert L. Park: Voodoo Science, 2000
>>
>> You don't want see the elementary facts then invent ridicoulus and very expensive for us conditions.
>> Then why with your hallucinatory theories don't reply elementari facts :
>>
>> with Asps PNN (with batteries .. and remote control) if on a scale we have thrust in a direction ... at 180 degree we have ANTI thrust :-)
>> we repeat this many times :-)
>> so you must invent and DO something of realistic to explain such MANY facts ................. such the follow two days ago : With more than 15 minutes of power Sub321n4 reach on scale more than 20 grams of thrust ... reproduce this this "thermal effect" with a coax cable that power a dummy load :-))))
>> the pnn only needs time to take off and of course an adequate system of solar panels. The thrust curve is similar to this
>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg.
>> All newtonian and realativistic theories are comic and have no meaning in the PNN field :-)
>>
>> E.Laureti
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <o...@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>
>
> I think this says it all: reproduce this "thermal effect" with a dummy
> load.

I reproduce that frequently. When I open the door of a hot oven and let
the door ajar, I feel a hot wind coming out. This wind from the oven has
more force than your PNN. The oven does not need to be any hotter than
your PNN gets.

Alain Fournier

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 05:47:13 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 04:53, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 21:21:09 -0700 (PDT), pnn calmagorod
>> <calmagorod@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 22:32:36 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>>>> pnn calmagorod <calma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Il giorno mercoled? 10 agosto 2022 alle 16:49:06 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>>>>>> Doctor Who <d...@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:42:09 +0300, o...@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>>> "thermal effects, which produce the illusion of a reactionless drive".
>>>>>>> which isn't our case!
>>>>>> Unfortunately, still to be proven. We'll be suitably impressed once
>>>>>> you are able to reproduce the claimed thrust effects in a vacuum.
>>>>>
>>>>> H.Lorentz obtained nobel prize for his Lorentz force without no
>>>>> experiments in vacuum :-)
>>>> Lorentz shared the 1902 Nobel Prize in Physics with Pieter Zeeman for
>>>> the discovery and theoretical explanation of the Zeeman effect, which is
>>>> the effect of splitting of a spectral line into several components in
>>>> the presence of a static magnetic field.
>>>>
>>>> The Nobel prize was not awarded for the the eponymous Lorentz force
>>>> which is the combination of electric and magnetic force on a point
>>>> charge due to electromagnetic fields.
>>>>
>>>> Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo is not enough that you will
>>>> be persecuted by an unkind establishment, you must also be right.
>>>> -- Robert L. Park: Voodoo Science, 2000
>>>
>>> You don't want see the elementary facts then invent ridicoulus and very expensive for us conditions.
>>> Then why with your hallucinatory theories don't reply elementari facts :
>>>
>>> with Asps PNN (with batteries .. and remote control) if on a scale we have thrust in a direction ... at 180 degree we have ANTI thrust :-)
>>> we repeat this many times :-)
>>> so you must invent and DO something of realistic to explain such MANY facts ................. such the follow two days ago : With more than 15 minutes of power Sub321n4 reach on scale more than 20 grams of thrust ... reproduce this this "thermal effect" with a coax cable that power a dummy load :-))))
>>> the pnn only needs time to take off and of course an adequate system of solar panels. The thrust curve is similar to this
>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg.
>>> All newtonian and realativistic theories are comic and have no meaning in the PNN field :-)
>>>
>>> E.Laureti
>>>
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <o...@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>>>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>>>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>>>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>>
>>
>> I think this says it all: reproduce this "thermal effect" with a dummy
>> load.
>
>I reproduce that frequently. When I open the door of a hot oven and let
>the door ajar, I feel a hot wind coming out. This wind from the oven has
>more force than your PNN. The oven does not need to be any hotter than
>your PNN gets.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

that is not a valid comparison, we don't put pnn into an oven. But
again, reproduce this thrust with a coax cable that powers a dummy
load so that you can say that "thermal effects" move the prototype,
and you have to reproduce that on a milligrams scale in both
directions up and down.
Go!

On Aug/12/2022 at 06:13, Doctor Who wrote :
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 05:47:13 -0400, Alain Fournier
> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Aug/12/2022 at 04:53, Doctor Who wrote :
>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 21:21:09 -0700 (PDT), pnn calmagorod
>>> <calmagorod@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 22:32:36 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>>>>> pnn calmagorod <calma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Il giorno mercoled? 10 agosto 2022 alle 16:49:06 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>>>>>>> Doctor Who <d...@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:42:09 +0300, o...@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "thermal effects, which produce the illusion of a reactionless drive".
>>>>>>>> which isn't our case!
>>>>>>> Unfortunately, still to be proven. We'll be suitably impressed once
>>>>>>> you are able to reproduce the claimed thrust effects in a vacuum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> H.Lorentz obtained nobel prize for his Lorentz force without no
>>>>>> experiments in vacuum :-)
>>>>> Lorentz shared the 1902 Nobel Prize in Physics with Pieter Zeeman for
>>>>> the discovery and theoretical explanation of the Zeeman effect, which is
>>>>> the effect of splitting of a spectral line into several components in
>>>>> the presence of a static magnetic field.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Nobel prize was not awarded for the the eponymous Lorentz force
>>>>> which is the combination of electric and magnetic force on a point
>>>>> charge due to electromagnetic fields.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo is not enough that you will
>>>>> be persecuted by an unkind establishment, you must also be right.
>>>>> -- Robert L. Park: Voodoo Science, 2000
>>>>
>>>> You don't want see the elementary facts then invent ridicoulus and very expensive for us conditions.
>>>> Then why with your hallucinatory theories don't reply elementari facts :
>>>>
>>>> with Asps PNN (with batteries .. and remote control) if on a scale we have thrust in a direction ... at 180 degree we have ANTI thrust :-)
>>>> we repeat this many times :-)
>>>> so you must invent and DO something of realistic to explain such MANY facts ................. such the follow two days ago : With more than 15 minutes of power Sub321n4 reach on scale more than 20 grams of thrust ... reproduce this this "thermal effect" with a coax cable that power a dummy load :-))))
>>>> the pnn only needs time to take off and of course an adequate system of solar panels. The thrust curve is similar to this
>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg.
>>>> All newtonian and realativistic theories are comic and have no meaning in the PNN field :-)
>>>>
>>>> E.Laureti
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <o...@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>>>>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>>>>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>>>>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>>>
>>>
>>> I think this says it all: reproduce this "thermal effect" with a dummy
>>> load.
>>
>> I reproduce that frequently. When I open the door of a hot oven and let
>> the door ajar, I feel a hot wind coming out. This wind from the oven has
>> more force than your PNN. The oven does not need to be any hotter than
>> your PNN gets.
>>
>>
>> Alain Fournier
>
>
> that is not a valid comparison, we don't put pnn into an oven. But
> again, reproduce this thrust with a coax cable that powers a dummy
> load so that you can say that "thermal effects" move the prototype,
> and you have to reproduce that on a milligrams scale in both
> directions up and down.
> Go!

Is there any reason why the oven has that thermal effect, but your PNN
that you heat to 220˚C would not have a thermal effect?

Alain Fournier

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 06:54:22 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 06:13, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 05:47:13 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 04:53, Doctor Who wrote :
>>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 21:21:09 -0700 (PDT), pnn calmagorod
>>>> <calmagorod@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 22:32:36 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>>>>>> pnn calmagorod <calma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Il giorno mercoled? 10 agosto 2022 alle 16:49:06 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>>>>>>>> Doctor Who <d...@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:42:09 +0300, o...@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "thermal effects, which produce the illusion of a reactionless drive".
>>>>>>>>> which isn't our case!
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, still to be proven. We'll be suitably impressed once
>>>>>>>> you are able to reproduce the claimed thrust effects in a vacuum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H.Lorentz obtained nobel prize for his Lorentz force without no
>>>>>>> experiments in vacuum :-)
>>>>>> Lorentz shared the 1902 Nobel Prize in Physics with Pieter Zeeman for
>>>>>> the discovery and theoretical explanation of the Zeeman effect, which is
>>>>>> the effect of splitting of a spectral line into several components in
>>>>>> the presence of a static magnetic field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Nobel prize was not awarded for the the eponymous Lorentz force
>>>>>> which is the combination of electric and magnetic force on a point
>>>>>> charge due to electromagnetic fields.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo is not enough that you will
>>>>>> be persecuted by an unkind establishment, you must also be right.
>>>>>> -- Robert L. Park: Voodoo Science, 2000
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't want see the elementary facts then invent ridicoulus and very expensive for us conditions.
>>>>> Then why with your hallucinatory theories don't reply elementari facts :
>>>>>
>>>>> with Asps PNN (with batteries .. and remote control) if on a scale we have thrust in a direction ... at 180 degree we have ANTI thrust :-)
>>>>> we repeat this many times :-)
>>>>> so you must invent and DO something of realistic to explain such MANY facts ................. such the follow two days ago : With more than 15 minutes of power Sub321n4 reach on scale more than 20 grams of thrust ... reproduce this this "thermal effect" with a coax cable that power a dummy load :-))))
>>>>> the pnn only needs time to take off and of course an adequate system of solar panels. The thrust curve is similar to this
>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg.
>>>>> All newtonian and realativistic theories are comic and have no meaning in the PNN field :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> E.Laureti
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <o...@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>>>>>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>>>>>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>>>>>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think this says it all: reproduce this "thermal effect" with a dummy
>>>> load.
>>>
>>> I reproduce that frequently. When I open the door of a hot oven and let
>>> the door ajar, I feel a hot wind coming out. This wind from the oven has
>>> more force than your PNN. The oven does not need to be any hotter than
>>> your PNN gets.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>>
>> that is not a valid comparison, we don't put pnn into an oven. But
>> again, reproduce this thrust with a coax cable that powers a dummy
>> load so that you can say that "thermal effects" move the prototype,
>> and you have to reproduce that on a milligrams scale in both
>> directions up and down.
>> Go!
>
>Is there any reason why the oven has that thermal effect, but your PNN
>that you heat to 220?C would not have a thermal effect?
>
>
>Alain Fournier

yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg

This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.

no thermal effect can achieve that.

On Aug/12/2022 at 07:56, Doctor Who wrote :
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 06:54:22 -0400, Alain Fournier
> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>> Is there any reason why the oven has that thermal effect, but your PNN
>> that you heat to 220?C would not have a thermal effect?
>>
>>
>> Alain Fournier
>
> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>
> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>
> no thermal effect can achieve that.

I already told you, that graph looks very much to what one would expect
if the thrust is from a thermal effect. The thrust increases with time
after putting the power on, that seems to be because once power is on,
the heat increases with time. Then with power off, you still have some
thrust. After cutting off power you have thrust that decreases with
time. That seems to be because the thing is still hot but cooling down.
Why would your thruster keep on providing thrust with the power off.
When I cut off the power to the engine of my car, I get zero thrust, the
thrust doesn't decrease with time, it goes to zero (I have an electric
car, the engine does not run at a lower regime when I release the
accelerator). And if I give let's say 20 kW of power to my engine, I get
constant thrust from the moment I give it 20 kW, it does not increase
with time at a constant power level.

Alain Fournier

Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 06:54:22 -0400, Alain Fournier
> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> Is there any reason why the oven has that thermal effect, but your
>> PNN that you heat to 220°C would not have a thermal effect?
>
> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>
> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
> no thermal effect can achieve that.

I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 09:06:14 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 07:56, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 06:54:22 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> Is there any reason why the oven has that thermal effect, but your PNN
>>> that you heat to 220?C would not have a thermal effect?
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>
>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>
>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>
>I already told you, that graph looks very much to what one would expect
>if the thrust is from a thermal effect. The thrust increases with time
>after putting the power on, that seems to be because once power is on,
>the heat increases with time. Then with power off, you still have some
>thrust. After cutting off power you have thrust that decreases with
>time. That seems to be because the thing is still hot but cooling down.
>Why would your thruster keep on providing thrust with the power off.
>When I cut off the power to the engine of my car, I get zero thrust, the
>thrust doesn't decrease with time, it goes to zero (I have an electric
>car, the engine does not run at a lower regime when I release the
>accelerator). And if I give let's say 20 kW of power to my engine, I get
>constant thrust from the moment I give it 20 kW, it does not increase
>with time at a constant power level.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

ah you told me already, but you are wrong.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 06:54:22 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>> Is there any reason why the oven has that thermal effect, but your
>>> PNN that you heat to 220°C would not have a thermal effect?
>>
>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>
>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>
>I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.

wrong again,

no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.

Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>
>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>
>>I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>
> wrong again,
> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.

You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>
>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>
>>>I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>
>> wrong again,
>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>
>You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?

acceleration increases in time with the same power output.

On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>
>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>
>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>
>> wrong again,
>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>
> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?

(Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)

Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
this case the power is constant at 250 W).

My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
and the temperature would increase with time.

Alain Fournier

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>
>>> wrong again,
>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>
>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>
>(Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>
>Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>
>My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>and the temperature would increase with time.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

But Mr. Fournier, you are talking about you opinion, not about an
experiment done with all the necessary due diligence.

We talk about an experiment of physics, not opinions.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>
>>> wrong again,
>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>
>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>
>(Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>
>Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>
>My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>and the temperature would increase with time.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.

On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>
>>>> wrong again,
>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>
>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>
>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>
>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>
>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>
>>
>> Alain Fournier
>
> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.

I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
the door ajar.

Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
produce thrust by thermal effect.

Alain Fournier

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>
>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>
>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>
>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>
>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>
>I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>the door ajar.
>
>Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>produce thrust by thermal effect.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

I conclude this conversation by stating that you understand nothing of
electrodynamics.

Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 19:47:17 UTC+2 Doctor Who ha scritto:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 10:42:51 -0700 (PDT), pnn calmagorod
> <calma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 18:48:34 UTC+2 Doctor Who ha scritto:
> >> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 12:43:12 -0400, Alain Fournier
> >> <alai...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Aug/10/2022 at 11:20, pnn calmagorod wrote :
> >> >> Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 16:49:06 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
> >> >>> Doctor Who <d...@tardis.org> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:42:09 +0300, o...@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
> >> >>>>> Alain Fournier <alai...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> You haven't worded that right. Thermal effects can produce real
> >> >>>>>> thrust, not just illusion of thrust. Of course such thrust
> >> >>>>>> disappears in a vacuum.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Indeed, you are correct. Sorry for the inaccuracy, I should have said
> >> >>>>> "thermal effects, which produce the illusion of a reactionless drive".
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> which isn't our case!
> >> >>> Unfortunately, still to be proven. We'll be suitably impressed once
> >> >>> you are able to reproduce the claimed thrust effects in a vacuum.
> >> >>
> >> >> H.Lorentz obtained nobel prize for his Lorentz force without no experiments in vacuum :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> more i never seem the measures of gold weight on a scale under vacuum :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> You dont't want see the elementary facts then invent ridicoulus and very expensive for us conditions.
> >> >> Then why with your allucinan theories don't reply to this? :
> >> >>
> >> >> with Asps PNN (with batteries .. and remote control) if on a scale we have thrust in a direction ... at 180 degree we have ANTI thrust :-)
> >> >> we repeat this many times :-)
> >> >> so you must invent something of realistic to explain such MANY facts :-)
> >> >
> >> >If you heat one side of your gizmo more than the other side you will
> >> >push air molecules harder on one side than on the other side. This will
> >> >give you some thrust. If you turn your gizmo 180 degrees, you will have
> >> >thrust in the other direction. You can repeat that as many times as you
> >> >want. That is not non-Newtonian propulsion.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Alain Fournier
> >> we insist that the thrust is due to the electromagnetic impulse, no
> >> thermal effect can achieve such a thrust measured on a scale in both
> >> directions (up and down).
> >
> >Secondo questo imbecille col botto uno scaldino a batterie e con telecomando si alleggerisce o appesantisce su una bilancia ...
> >per la variazione di massa dovrebbe essere una bomba atomica :-)
> >Non c'è utilità a parlare con questi deficienti TOTALI
> >
> >e lallo
> infatti, arragliano come i gotha, io li inserirei nella gothalist
> majalagarden!

sono zero di zero ...non posso perdere troppo tempo con questi imbecilli rincoglioniti dalle scorregge dei razzi

e lallo
>
> e lallo

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:48:37 -0700 (PDT), pnn calmagorod
<calmagorod@gmail.com> wrote:

>Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 19:47:17 UTC+2 Doctor Who ha scritto:
>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 10:42:51 -0700 (PDT), pnn calmagorod
>> <calma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 18:48:34 UTC+2 Doctor Who ha scritto:
>> >> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 12:43:12 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> >> <alai...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Aug/10/2022 at 11:20, pnn calmagorod wrote :
>> >> >> Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 16:49:06 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>> >> >>> Doctor Who <d...@tardis.org> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:42:09 +0300, o...@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>> >> >>>>> Alain Fournier <alai...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>> You haven't worded that right. Thermal effects can produce real
>> >> >>>>>> thrust, not just illusion of thrust. Of course such thrust
>> >> >>>>>> disappears in a vacuum.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Indeed, you are correct. Sorry for the inaccuracy, I should have said
>> >> >>>>> "thermal effects, which produce the illusion of a reactionless drive".
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> which isn't our case!
>> >> >>> Unfortunately, still to be proven. We'll be suitably impressed once
>> >> >>> you are able to reproduce the claimed thrust effects in a vacuum.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> H.Lorentz obtained nobel prize for his Lorentz force without no experiments in vacuum :-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> more i never seem the measures of gold weight on a scale under vacuum :-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You dont't want see the elementary facts then invent ridicoulus and very expensive for us conditions.
>> >> >> Then why with your allucinan theories don't reply to this? :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> with Asps PNN (with batteries .. and remote control) if on a scale we have thrust in a direction ... at 180 degree we have ANTI thrust :-)
>> >> >> we repeat this many times :-)
>> >> >> so you must invent something of realistic to explain such MANY facts :-)
>> >> >
>> >> >If you heat one side of your gizmo more than the other side you will
>> >> >push air molecules harder on one side than on the other side. This will
>> >> >give you some thrust. If you turn your gizmo 180 degrees, you will have
>> >> >thrust in the other direction. You can repeat that as many times as you
>> >> >want. That is not non-Newtonian propulsion.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Alain Fournier
>> >> we insist that the thrust is due to the electromagnetic impulse, no
>> >> thermal effect can achieve such a thrust measured on a scale in both
>> >> directions (up and down).
>> >
>> >Secondo questo imbecille col botto uno scaldino a batterie e con telecomando si alleggerisce o appesantisce su una bilancia ...
>> >per la variazione di massa dovrebbe essere una bomba atomica :-)
>> >Non c'è utilità a parlare con questi deficienti TOTALI
>> >
>> >e lallo
>> infatti, arragliano come i gotha, io li inserirei nella gothalist
>> majalagarden!
>
>sono zero di zero ...non posso perdere troppo tempo con questi imbecilli rincoglioniti dalle scorregge dei razzi
>
>e lallo
>>
>> e lallo

anche io ho deciso di tagliare corto, sono troppo ossessionati dagli
effetti termici del cazzo.

e lallo

Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>> wrong again,
>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>
>>You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>
> acceleration increases in time with the same power output.

This is exactly what one would expect of a thermal effect: the "thrust"
increases as the device gets warmer, and then once power is switched off
starts slowly falling as the device cools down.

What I would expect of a non-thermal thrust effect is that it starts
(at least nearly) immediately as power is applied and also dies down
almost immediately when power is switched off.

If this is a thermal effect, at some device temperature there should
come a saturation of "thrust" produced, but this point may be beyond
what you can safely test without damaging your electronics.

One test that might yield us some interesting data points is to plot how
well the device temperature correlates with the "thrust" produced.
Contactless infrared thermometers exist.

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 17:43:40 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>> wrong again,
>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>
>>>You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>
>> acceleration increases in time with the same power output.
>
>This is exactly what one would expect of a thermal effect: the "thrust"
>increases as the device gets warmer, and then once power is switched off
>starts slowly falling as the device cools down.
>
>What I would expect of a non-thermal thrust effect is that it starts
>(at least nearly) immediately as power is applied and also dies down
>almost immediately when power is switched off.
>
>If this is a thermal effect, at some device temperature there should
>come a saturation of "thrust" produced, but this point may be beyond
>what you can safely test without damaging your electronics.
>
>One test that might yield us some interesting data points is to plot how
>well the device temperature correlates with the "thrust" produced.
>Contactless infrared thermometers exist.

do the experiment!

On Aug/15/2022 at 11:46, Doctor Who wrote :
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 17:43:40 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>
>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>
>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>
>>> acceleration increases in time with the same power output.
>>
>> This is exactly what one would expect of a thermal effect: the "thrust"
>> increases as the device gets warmer, and then once power is switched off
>> starts slowly falling as the device cools down.
>>
>> What I would expect of a non-thermal thrust effect is that it starts
>> (at least nearly) immediately as power is applied and also dies down
>> almost immediately when power is switched off.
>>
>> If this is a thermal effect, at some device temperature there should
>> come a saturation of "thrust" produced, but this point may be beyond
>> what you can safely test without damaging your electronics.
>>
>> One test that might yield us some interesting data points is to plot how
>> well the device temperature correlates with the "thrust" produced.
>> Contactless infrared thermometers exist.
>
> do the experiment!

Why would he, or anyone of us, spend time, effort and money for that? We
don't care all that much about your gizmo. We think that you are wasting
your time on it. But that's not a problem for us, if you want to waste
your time, that's OK. Just don't expect us to waste too much time on it.

Alain Fournier

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 12:51:22 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/15/2022 at 11:46, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 17:43:40 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>
>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>>
>>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>>
>>>> acceleration increases in time with the same power output.
>>>
>>> This is exactly what one would expect of a thermal effect: the "thrust"
>>> increases as the device gets warmer, and then once power is switched off
>>> starts slowly falling as the device cools down.
>>>
>>> What I would expect of a non-thermal thrust effect is that it starts
>>> (at least nearly) immediately as power is applied and also dies down
>>> almost immediately when power is switched off.
>>>
>>> If this is a thermal effect, at some device temperature there should
>>> come a saturation of "thrust" produced, but this point may be beyond
>>> what you can safely test without damaging your electronics.
>>>
>>> One test that might yield us some interesting data points is to plot how
>>> well the device temperature correlates with the "thrust" produced.
>>> Contactless infrared thermometers exist.
>>
>> do the experiment!
>
>Why would he, or anyone of us, spend time, effort and money for that? We
>don't care all that much about your gizmo. We think that you are wasting
>your time on it. But that's not a problem for us, if you want to waste
>your time, that's OK. Just don't expect us to waste too much time on it.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

good bye

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>
>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>
>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>
>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>
>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>
>I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>the door ajar.
>
>Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>produce thrust by thermal effect.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

the European Patent Office doesn't think like you as it has granted a
patent.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 19:29:50 +0200, Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
><alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>>
>>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>>
>>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>>
>>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>>
>>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alain Fournier
>>>
>>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>>
>>I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>>the door ajar.
>>
>>Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>>produce thrust by thermal effect.
>>
>>
>>Alain Fournier
>
>the European Patent Office doesn't think like you as it has granted a
>patent.

the patent has the following properties:

- Novelty

- Industrial Application

- Creative activity

Le Aug/15/2022 à 13:29, Doctor Who a écrit :
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>>
>>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>>
>>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>>
>>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>>
>>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alain Fournier
>>>
>>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>>
>> I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>> the door ajar.
>>
>> Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>> produce thrust by thermal effect.
>>
>>
>> Alain Fournier
>
> the European Patent Office doesn't think like you as it has granted a
> patent.

Nope. The patent office does not verify that an invention does work. It
is the responsibility of the inventor to verify that his invention
works. If you buy something, let's say a computer, and it does not work.
You can't sue the patent office even if they patented the computer, the
patent does not in any way guaranty the thing works. You can only sue
the computer maker. It is the responsibility of the seller to verify the
thing works, not the responsibility of the patent office.

Alain Fournier

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 14:43:06 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>Le Aug/15/2022 à 13:29, Doctor Who a écrit :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>>>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>>>
>>>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>>>
>>>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alain Fournier
>>>>
>>>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>>>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>>>
>>> I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>>> the door ajar.
>>>
>>> Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>>> produce thrust by thermal effect.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>> the European Patent Office doesn't think like you as it has granted a
>> patent.
>
>Nope. The patent office does not verify that an invention does work. It
>is the responsibility of the inventor to verify that his invention
>works. If you buy something, let's say a computer, and it does not work.
>You can't sue the patent office even if they patented the computer, the
>patent does not in any way guaranty the thing works. You can only sue
>the computer maker. It is the responsibility of the seller to verify the
>thing works, not the responsibility of the patent office.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

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