For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
and quietly closed shop?
--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On 2024-02-19 11:38 a.m., Otto J. Makela wrote:
> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
> and quietly closed shop?

Is it really necessary to wake up the trolls?

> /* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

01001110 01101111 00101100 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000
01110101 01110100 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100000 01100100 01101111
01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01110010 01110101 01101100 01100101

Alain Fournier

> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
> and quietly closed shop?
> --
> /* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

What does PNN stand for?

On 2024-02-20 1:51 p.m., The Running Man wrote:
>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
>> and quietly closed shop?
>> --
>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>
> What does PNN stand for?
>

It stands for Propulsione Non Newtoniana (Italian, meaning Non-Newtonian
Propulsion). A group of Italian people claiming that they have a
propulsion system using no reaction mass. Something like a microwaves
bouncing around in a closed cavity that they claim, without explaining
the physics behind it, that it produces acceleration. They have video
showing that it gives if I recall correctly some 200 mN of force. We
tried to explain to them that because their microwaves heat one side of
their apparatus more than the other side, the air is heated more on one
side than the other. This differential in air temperature can explain
the force that they measure, therefore, outside an atmosphere it
wouldn't work. But they don't want any of that, they are sure that their
"invention" will revolutionize rocketry.

Alain Fournier

> On 2024-02-20 1:51 p.m., The Running Man wrote:
>>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
>>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
>>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
>>> and quietly closed shop?
>>> --
>>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>>
>> What does PNN stand for?
>>
>
> It stands for Propulsione Non Newtoniana (Italian, meaning Non-Newtonian
> Propulsion). A group of Italian people claiming that they have a
> propulsion system using no reaction mass. Something like a microwaves
> bouncing around in a closed cavity that they claim, without explaining
> the physics behind it, that it produces acceleration. They have video
> showing that it gives if I recall correctly some 200 mN of force. We
> tried to explain to them that because their microwaves heat one side of
> their apparatus more than the other side, the air is heated more on one
> side than the other. This differential in air temperature can explain
> the force that they measure, therefore, outside an atmosphere it
> wouldn't work. But they don't want any of that, they are sure that their
> "invention" will revolutionize rocketry.
>
>
> Alain Fournier
>

I once read a (fiction) book about futuristic spaceships and they claimed that a mass-less propulsion drive could be made by a huge electromagnet which would change its polarity so fast that the EM flux didn't have time to dissipate, thereby creating a repelling force.

On 21-Feb-24 8:31 am, The Running Man wrote:
>> On 2024-02-20 1:51 p.m., The Running Man wrote:
>>>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
>>>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
>>>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
>>>> and quietly closed shop?
>>>> --
>>>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>>>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>>>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>>>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>>>
>>> What does PNN stand for?
>>>
>>
>> It stands for Propulsione Non Newtoniana (Italian, meaning Non-Newtonian
>> Propulsion). A group of Italian people claiming that they have a
>> propulsion system using no reaction mass. Something like a microwaves
>> bouncing around in a closed cavity that they claim, without explaining
>> the physics behind it, that it produces acceleration. They have video
>> showing that it gives if I recall correctly some 200 mN of force. We
>> tried to explain to them that because their microwaves heat one side of
>> their apparatus more than the other side, the air is heated more on one
>> side than the other. This differential in air temperature can explain
>> the force that they measure, therefore, outside an atmosphere it
>> wouldn't work. But they don't want any of that, they are sure that their
>> "invention" will revolutionize rocketry.
>>
>>
>> Alain Fournier
>>
>
> I once read a (fiction) book about futuristic spaceships and they claimed that a mass-less propulsion drive could be made by a huge electromagnet which would change its polarity so fast that the EM flux didn't have time to dissipate, thereby creating a repelling force.

Transmitting electromagnetic waves using a directional antenna produces
a net force. Not much of one, for sure, but some. It's a kind of photon
drive.

But it's still not mass-less, because the photons that form the
electromagnetic waves have mass, and the attached craft is losing mass
in proportion to the energy being radiated.

Near a star, the required energy can be collected using solar panels,
but solar sails of the same area work better.

So there's a reason we don't use photon drives.

Sylvia.

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 15:48:04 -0500, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On 2024-02-20 1:51 p.m., The Running Man wrote:
>>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
>>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
>>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
>>> and quietly closed shop?
>>> --
>>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>>
>> What does PNN stand for?
>>
>
>It stands for Propulsione Non Newtoniana (Italian, meaning Non-Newtonian
>Propulsion). A group of Italian people claiming that they have a
>propulsion system using no reaction mass. Something like a microwaves
>bouncing around in a closed cavity that they claim, without explaining
>the physics behind it, that it produces acceleration. They have video
>showing that it gives if I recall correctly some 200 mN of force. We
>tried to explain to them that because their microwaves heat one side of
>their apparatus more than the other side, the air is heated more on one
>side than the other. This differential in air temperature can explain
>the force that they measure, therefore, outside an atmosphere it
>wouldn't work. But they don't want any of that, they are sure that their
>"invention" will revolutionize rocketry.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

Which was of course the wrong explanation.

We have tests on a scale with up and down thrust.

On 21/02/2024 00:12 Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
> On 21-Feb-24 8:31 am, The Running Man wrote:
>>> On 2024-02-20 1:51 p.m., The Running Man wrote:
>>>>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
>>>>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
>>>>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
>>>>> and quietly closed shop?
>>>>> --
>>>>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>>>>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>>>>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>>>>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>>>>
>>>> What does PNN stand for?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It stands for Propulsione Non Newtoniana (Italian, meaning Non-Newtonian
>>> Propulsion). A group of Italian people claiming that they have a
>>> propulsion system using no reaction mass. Something like a microwaves
>>> bouncing around in a closed cavity that they claim, without explaining
>>> the physics behind it, that it produces acceleration. They have video
>>> showing that it gives if I recall correctly some 200 mN of force. We
>>> tried to explain to them that because their microwaves heat one side of
>>> their apparatus more than the other side, the air is heated more on one
>>> side than the other. This differential in air temperature can explain
>>> the force that they measure, therefore, outside an atmosphere it
>>> wouldn't work. But they don't want any of that, they are sure that their
>>> "invention" will revolutionize rocketry.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>>
>>
>> I once read a (fiction) book about futuristic spaceships and they claimed that a mass-less propulsion drive could be made by a huge electromagnet which would change its polarity so fast that the EM flux didn't have time to dissipate, thereby creating a repelling force.
>
> Transmitting electromagnetic waves using a directional antenna produces
> a net force. Not much of one, for sure, but some. It's a kind of photon
> drive.
>
> But it's still not mass-less, because the photons that form the
> electromagnetic waves have mass, and the attached craft is losing mass
> in proportion to the energy being radiated.
>
> Near a star, the required energy can be collected using solar panels,
> but solar sails of the same area work better.
>
> So there's a reason we don't use photon drives.
>
> Sylvia.

The idea was that the repulsive force would come from the EM field and not any photon mass ejection.

Photon mass ejection from an antenna would be similar to a solar sail, I imagine.

On Wednesday, February 21, 2024 at 3:18:44 AM UTC-5, Doctor Who wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 15:48:04 -0500, Alain Fournier
> <alai...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
> >On 2024-02-20 1:51 p.m., The Running Man wrote:
> >>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
> >>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
> >>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
> >>> and quietly closed shop?
> >>> --
> >>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <o...@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
> >>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
> >>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
> >>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
> >>
> >> What does PNN stand for?
> >>
> >
> >It stands for Propulsione Non Newtoniana (Italian, meaning Non-Newtonian
> >Propulsion). A group of Italian people claiming that they have a
> >propulsion system using no reaction mass. Something like a microwaves
> >bouncing around in a closed cavity that they claim, without explaining
> >the physics behind it, that it produces acceleration. They have video
> >showing that it gives if I recall correctly some 200 mN of force. We
> >tried to explain to them that because their microwaves heat one side of
> >their apparatus more than the other side, the air is heated more on one
> >side than the other. This differential in air temperature can explain
> >the force that they measure, therefore, outside an atmosphere it
> >wouldn't work. But they don't want any of that, they are sure that their
> >"invention" will revolutionize rocketry.
> >
> >
> >Alain Fournier
> Which was of course the wrong explanation.
>
> We have tests on a scale with up and down thrust.

Tests in a vacuum?

Alain Fournier asserted that:
> On 2024-02-19 11:38 a.m., Otto J. Makela wrote:
>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
>> and quietly closed shop?
>
> Is it really necessary to wake up the trolls?

May not be a problem. The Google Groups gateway to usenet is now
turned off, I believe, and these people were too sophisticated to use a
mere newsreader.

>
>> /* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
>> /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
>> /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
>> /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */
>
> 01001110 01101111 00101100 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000
> 01110101 01110100 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100000 01100100 01101111
> 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01110010 01110101 01101100 01100101
>
>
> Alain Fournier

/dps "-1, 0, 1"

--
Why would I want to be alone with my thoughts?
Have you heard some of the shit that comes out of my mouth?
-- the World Wide Web

On Feb 21, 2024, Snidely wrote
(in article <mn.ab987e8266f7a635.127094@snitoo>):

> Alain Fournier asserted that:
> > On 2024-02-19 11:38 a.m., Otto J. Makela wrote:
> > > For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
> > > not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
> > > active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't work
> > > and quietly closed shop?
> >
> > Is it really necessary to wake up the trolls?
>
> May not be a problem. The Google Groups gateway to usenet is now
> turned off, I believe, and these people were too sophisticated to use a
> mere newsreader.

I think it is not turned off yet, at least new posts from Usenet
are still showing up on Google Groups, and they haven’t yet
edited their pinned message at the top of each group to
say that they have cut off access. I suspect that they won’t
do it until office hours start in Pacific Standard Time (UTC - 8 hrs).

--
David Dalton dalton@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
“And the cart is on a wheel; And the wheel is on a hill;
And the hill is shifting sand; And inside these laws we stand" (Ferron)

Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2024-02-19 11:38 a.m., Otto J. Makela wrote:
>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't
>> work and quietly closed shop?
>
> Is it really necessary to wake up the trolls?

And they think we are the trolls.

01010111 01100101 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110011 01100101
01100101 00100000 01100001 01100110 01110100 01100101 01110010 00100000
01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000001 01001001 00100000 01110100
01100001 01101011 01100101 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 00101110

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 10:16:11 +0200, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-02-19 11:38 a.m., Otto J. Makela wrote:
>>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
>>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
>>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't
>>> work and quietly closed shop?
>>
>> Is it really necessary to wake up the trolls?
>
>And they think we are the trolls.
>
>01010111 01100101 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110011 01100101
>01100101 00100000 01100001 01100110 01110100 01100101 01110010 00100000
>01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000001 01001001 00100000 01110100
>01100001 01101011 01100101 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 00101110

The PNN shop is alive.

We continue with experiments and improvement of the prototype.

On 2024-03-14 4:16 a.m., Otto J. Makela wrote:
> Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-02-19 11:38 a.m., Otto J. Makela wrote:
>>> For some reason, the PNN folks who were quite active on this group do
>>> not seem to have posted anything in a long while. Did they run out of
>>> active people, or money? Or did they finally figure out it doesn't
>>> work and quietly closed shop?
>>
>> Is it really necessary to wake up the trolls?
>
> And they think we are the trolls.
>
> 01010111 01100101 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110011 01100101
> 01100101 00100000 01100001 01100110 01110100 01100101 01110010 00100000
> 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000001 01001001 00100000 01110100
> 01100001 01101011 01100101 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 00101110

01001100 01001111 01001100 00100000 00111010 00101101 00101001

Alain Fournier

Von Ottone <vonottone@test.invalid> wrote:

> The PNN shop is alive.
> We continue with experiments and improvement of the prototype.

I would be interested in hearing about progress and experiments which
have been conducted, preferrably without added raspberry sounds.
--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 13:12:35 +0200, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Von Ottone <vonottone@test.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The PNN shop is alive.
>> We continue with experiments and improvement of the prototype.
>
>I would be interested in hearing about progress and experiments which
>have been conducted, preferrably without added raspberry sounds.

Sounds good. I will post here as soon as data becomes available to me.