An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
Mesozoic.

Abstract

Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.

Open access:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8

On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
> Mesozoic.
>
> Abstract
>
> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>
> Open access:
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8

I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
whenever possible, preferably anatids.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
<john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>> Mesozoic.
>>
>> Abstract
>>
>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>
>> Open access:
>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>
>I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>whenever possible, preferably anatids.

You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?

The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs

and the "duelling dinosaurs":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets

It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.

On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
> <john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>>> Mesozoic.
>>>
>>> Abstract
>>>
>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>>
>>> Open access:
>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>>
>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
>
> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?

It's so hard to find fresh ones.

> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
>
> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
>
> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.

Again, these days it's hard to find fresh ones.

On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
> <john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>>> Mesozoic.
>>>
>>> Abstract
>>>
>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>>
>>> Open access:
>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>>
>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
>
> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
>
> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
>
> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
>
> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.

Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.

On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 07:04:54 -0700, John Harshman
<john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
>> <john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>>>> Mesozoic.
>>>>
>>>> Abstract
>>>>
>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>>>
>>>> Open access:
>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>>>
>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
>>
>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
>>
>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
>>
>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
>>
>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
>
>Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
>their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.

Not exactly a feast, but there may be hope:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-51680-1

Thank you, Mary Schweitzer!

On 7/22/23 7:32 AM, Pandora wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 07:04:54 -0700, John Harshman
> <john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
>>> <john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>>>>> Mesozoic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Abstract
>>>>>
>>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>>>>
>>>>> Open access:
>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>>>>
>>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
>>>
>>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
>>>
>>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
>>>
>>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
>>>
>>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
>>
>> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
>> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
>
> Not exactly a feast, but there may be hope:
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-51680-1
>
> Thank you, Mary Schweitzer!

Yes, and there was that supposed banquet in Russia where they served
mammoth.

Wow! The fossil seems so insanely perfect, clean and articulate that it almost looks like it came off of a 3D printer or something!
Apparently it really “bites” to be a Psittacosaur. I didn’t read the whole article… did they die together or was it caught scavenging?

On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 5:02:00 AM UTC-6, Pandora wrote:
> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
> Mesozoic.
>
> Abstract
>
> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
> Yixian Formation預nd the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly揺ave
> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>
> Open access:
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8

On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
> > On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
> > <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
> >>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
> >>> Mesozoic.
> >>>
> >>> Abstract
> >>>
> >>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
> >>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
> >>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
> >>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
> >>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
> >>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
> >>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
> >>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
> >>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
> >>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
> >>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
> >>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
> >>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
> >>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
> >>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
> >>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
> >>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
> >>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
> >>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
> >>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
> >>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
> >>>
> >>> Open access:
> >>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
> >>
> >> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
> >> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
> >
> > You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
> >
> > The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
> >
> > and the "duelling dinosaurs":
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
> > https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
> >
> > It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.

> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.

Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?

There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.

I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.

Peter Nyikos

On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
>>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>>>>> Mesozoic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Abstract
>>>>>
>>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>>>>
>>>>> Open access:
>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>>>>
>>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
>>>
>>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
>>>
>>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
>>>
>>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
>>>
>>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
>
>> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
>> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
>
> Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?

No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.

> There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
> who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
> returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
> foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
>
>
> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.

In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.

On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> >> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
> >>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
> >>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
> >>>>> Mesozoic.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Abstract
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
> >>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
> >>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
> >>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
> >>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
> >>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
> >>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
> >>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
> >>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
> >>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
> >>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
> >>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
> >>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
> >>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
> >>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
> >>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
> >>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
> >>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
> >>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
> >>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
> >>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Open access:
> >>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
> >>>>
> >>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
> >>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
> >>>
> >>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
> >>>
> >>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
> >>>
> >>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
> >>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
> >>>
> >>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
> >
> >> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
> >> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
> >
> > Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?

> No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.

I know that, but you are behaving like a smart alec aged 8 years old or less.

Is your "sympathy" based on having eaten a good chunk of tinamou meat? Tinamous are the focal point
of your one claim to fame, a paper in PNAS co-authored with 18 (or is it 19?) biologists.

If so, then I withdraw the claim of "8 years or less". Otherwise, I ask whether
your role was that of someone putting together reams of data into a
phylogenetic analysis, and if so, did you eat some part of those reams?

> > There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
> > who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
> > returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
> > foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
> >
> >
> > I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.

> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.

You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.

Peter Nyikos

On 7/25/23 2:20 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
>>>>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>>>>>>> Mesozoic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Abstract
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>>>>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>>>>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>>>>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>>>>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>>>>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>>>>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>>>>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>>>>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>>>>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>>>>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>>>>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>>>>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>>>>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>>>>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>>>>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>>>>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>>>>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>>>>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>>>>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>>>>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Open access:
>>>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>>>>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
>>>>>
>>>>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
>>>>>
>>>>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
>>>>>
>>>>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
>>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
>>>
>>>> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
>>>> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
>>>
>>> Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?
>
>> No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.
>
> I know that, but you are behaving like a smart alec aged 8 years old or less.
>
>
> Is your "sympathy" based on having eaten a good chunk of tinamou meat? Tinamous are the focal point
> of your one claim to fame, a paper in PNAS co-authored with 18 (or is it 19?) biologists.
>
> If so, then I withdraw the claim of "8 years or less". Otherwise, I ask whether
> your role was that of someone putting together reams of data into a
> phylogenetic analysis, and if so, did you eat some part of those reams?

My major study organisms are birds in general, and of course I've eaten
plenty of them, though no tinamous. But my dissertation is on ducks,
which are my favorite both phylogenetically and culinarily. I've also
published on and eaten crocodylians.

>>> There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
>>> who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
>>> returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
>>> foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
>>>
>>>
>>> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
>
>> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
>
> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.

No point. You would reject any support, and everyone else already knows.

On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > >> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
> > >>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
> > >>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
> > >>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
> > >>>>> Mesozoic.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Abstract
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
> > >>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
> > >>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
> > >>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
> > >>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
> > >>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
> > >>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
> > >>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
> > >>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
> > >>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
> > >>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
> > >>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
> > >>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
> > >>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
> > >>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
> > >>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
> > >>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
> > >>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
> > >>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
> > >>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
> > >>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Open access:
> > >>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
> > >>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
> > >>>
> > >>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
> > >>>
> > >>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
> > >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
> > >>>
> > >>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
> > >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
> > >>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
> > >>>
> > >>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
> > >
> > >> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
> > >> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
> > >
> > > Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?
>
> > No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.
> I know that, but you are behaving like a smart alec aged 8 years old or less.
>
>
> Is your "sympathy" based on having eaten a good chunk of tinamou meat? Tinamous are the focal point
> of your one claim to fame, a paper in PNAS co-authored with 18 (or is it 19?) biologists.
>
> If so, then I withdraw the claim of "8 years or less". Otherwise, I ask whether
> your role was that of someone putting together reams of data into a
> phylogenetic analysis, and if so, did you eat some part of those reams?
> > > There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
> > > who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
> > > returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
> > > foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
> > >
> > >
> > > I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
>
> > In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.
>
>
> Peter Nyikos
You've got to be kidding.

On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > >> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
> > > >>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
> > > >>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
> > > >>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
> > > >>>>> Mesozoic.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Abstract
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
> > > >>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
> > > >>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
> > > >>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
> > > >>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
> > > >>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
> > > >>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
> > > >>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
> > > >>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
> > > >>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
> > > >>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
> > > >>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
> > > >>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
> > > >>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
> > > >>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
> > > >>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
> > > >>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
> > > >>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
> > > >>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
> > > >>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
> > > >>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Open access:
> > > >>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
> > > >>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
> > > >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
> > > >>>
> > > >>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
> > > >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
> > > >>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
> > > >>>
> > > >>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
> > > >
> > > >> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
> > > >> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
> > > >
> > > > Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?
> >
> > > No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.
> > I know that, but you are behaving like a smart alec aged 8 years old or less.
> >
> >
> > Is your "sympathy" based on having eaten a good chunk of tinamou meat? Tinamous are the focal point
> > of your one claim to fame, a paper in PNAS co-authored with 18 (or is it 19?) biologists.
> >
> > If so, then I withdraw the claim of "8 years or less". Otherwise, I ask whether
> > your role was that of someone putting together reams of data into a
> > phylogenetic analysis, and if so, did you eat some part of those reams?
> > > > There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
> > > > who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
> > > > returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
> > > > foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
> >
> > > In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
> > You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
> > You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary..

Your response blithely ignores that last line.

> You've got to be kidding.

No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
and lied that everyone knows it.

Peter Nyikos
QUOTE OF THE DAY
“One hundred repetitions three nights a week for four years, thought Bernard Marx, who was a specialist on hypnopædia. Sixty-two thousand four hundred repetitions make one truth. Idiots!” -- _Brave_New_World_, by Aldous Huxley
https://genius.com/Aldous-huxley-brave-new-world-chapter-3-annotated

On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
>>>>>>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>>>>>>>>> Mesozoic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Abstract
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>>>>>>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>>>>>>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>>>>>>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>>>>>>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>>>>>>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>>>>>>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>>>>>>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>>>>>>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>>>>>>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>>>>>>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>>>>>>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>>>>>>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>>>>>>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>>>>>>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>>>>>>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>>>>>>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>>>>>>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>>>>>>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>>>>>>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>>>>>>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Open access:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>>>>>>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
>>>>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
>>>>>> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?
>>>
>>>> No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.
>>> I know that, but you are behaving like a smart alec aged 8 years old or less.
>>>
>>>
>>> Is your "sympathy" based on having eaten a good chunk of tinamou meat? Tinamous are the focal point
>>> of your one claim to fame, a paper in PNAS co-authored with 18 (or is it 19?) biologists.
>>>
>>> If so, then I withdraw the claim of "8 years or less". Otherwise, I ask whether
>>> your role was that of someone putting together reams of data into a
>>> phylogenetic analysis, and if so, did you eat some part of those reams?
>>>>> There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
>>>>> who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
>>>>> returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
>>>>> foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
>>>
>>>> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
>>> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
>>> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.
>
> Your response blithely ignores that last line.
>
>> You've got to be kidding.
>
> No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
> of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
> Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
> and lied that everyone knows it.

So this is your way of avoiding becoming embroiled in interpersonal
conflicts?

On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 08:40:18 -0700
John Harshman <john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> >>>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
[]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
> >>>
> >>>> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
> >>> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
> >>> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.
> >
> > Your response blithely ignores that last line.
> >
> >> You've got to be kidding.
> >
> > No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
> > of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
> > Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
> > and lied that everyone knows it.
>
> So this is your way of avoiding becoming embroiled in interpersonal
> conflicts?
>

Erm, this is just more of the same 'et tu Brutti' stuff; could we just get
back to On Topic posts? Or maybe I ask too much.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 11:40:28 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> >>>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
> >>>>>>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
> >>>>>>>>> Mesozoic.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Abstract
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
> >>>>>>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
> >>>>>>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
> >>>>>>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
> >>>>>>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
> >>>>>>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
> >>>>>>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
> >>>>>>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
> >>>>>>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
> >>>>>>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
> >>>>>>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
> >>>>>>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
> >>>>>>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
> >>>>>>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
> >>>>>>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
> >>>>>>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
> >>>>>>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
> >>>>>>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
> >>>>>>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
> >>>>>>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
> >>>>>>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Open access:
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
> >>>>>>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
> >>>>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
> >>>>>> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?
> >>>
> >>>> No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.
> >>> I know that, but you are behaving like a smart alec aged 8 years old or less.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is your "sympathy" based on having eaten a good chunk of tinamou meat? Tinamous are the focal point
> >>> of your one claim to fame, a paper in PNAS co-authored with 18 (or is it 19?) biologists.
> >>>
> >>> If so, then I withdraw the claim of "8 years or less". Otherwise, I ask whether
> >>> your role was that of someone putting together reams of data into a
> >>> phylogenetic analysis, and if so, did you eat some part of those reams?
> >>>>> There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
> >>>>> who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
> >>>>> returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
> >>>>> foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
> >>>
> >>>> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
> >>> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
> >>> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.
> >
> > Your response blithely ignores that last line.
> >
> >> You've got to be kidding.
> >
> > No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
> > of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
> > Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
> > and lied that everyone knows it.

You do not deny having lied in that way; a prudent course of action,
since you haven't got a leg to stand on. However, you cast
prudence to the winds below.

You are guilty below of a dirty debating tactic which I call The One Shade of Gray Meltdown.

This consists of seizing on one or two things two disparate things have in common,
and pretending there is little or no difference between them.

> So this is your way of avoiding becoming embroiled in interpersonal
> conflicts?

I gave that advice to John Kerr-Mudd, a newcomer to both talk.origins
and sci.bio.paleontology. It is an excellent policy for anyone who
hasn't had many months of observation in talk.origins as to who is guilty
of dishonest behavior in interpersonal conflicts, and who is
honest and sincere, even in the midst of these conflicts.

I neglected to mention that the same
advice applies to newcomers here.

The reason is that you and erik simpson destroyed an agreement
we had between us back in mid-2015 to treat sci.bio.paleontology
like an embassy where we lay aside our personal grievances
[understood: the ones raging in talk.origins at the time]
and treat each other like the best of ambassadors.

The agreement lasted until early 2018, when erik refused
to apologize for a serious breach he had made in that
agreement right about when I went on a long posting break
in December 2017. Not only that, but he then gave a totally
different standard for his own behavior, and you backed him
all the way.

An accomplice of his who disappeared about a year and a half ago also backed him,
then helped him to continue in his dishonest, hypocritical ways.
When his accomplice crossed over a particularly sacrosanct line,
I boycotted their posts for the rest of 2019.

You, Harshman, raised a big stink about me doing that,
but I held firm, for several good reasons.

Peter Nyikos

On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 08:40:18 -0700
> John Harshman <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > >>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > >>>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> []
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
> > >>>
> > >>>> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
> > >>> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
> > >>> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.
> > >
> > > Your response blithely ignores that last line.
> > >
> > >> You've got to be kidding.
> > >
> > > No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
> > > of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
> > > Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
> > > and lied that everyone knows it.
> >
> > So this is your way of avoiding becoming embroiled in interpersonal
> > conflicts?
> >
> Erm, this is just more of the same 'et tu Brutti' stuff; could we just get
> back to On Topic posts?

I'm sorry you had to be exposed to this kind of back and forth so soon, John.
But it does give you some idea of what a hornet's nest s.b.p. is,
and talk.origins is much worse yet, because the number of dishonest, hypocritical
posters there is about ten times as big as it is here, and it extends to
on-topic debates as well.

By the way, I had a real "et tu, Brute" moment during the 2018 unraveling of
our mid-2015 agreement, described in the reply I did to Harshman
about half an hour ago.

However, I am a big one for letting bygones be bygones, and as long
as "Brutus" remains honest and sincere, I won't hold this behavior against him.

>Or maybe I ask too much.

There is on-topic discussion on other threads here. I started a book review
yesterday, and Pandora started the discussion. Later today I will continue
both the book review and the discussion on the same thread.

Peter Nyikos

On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 10:57:33 -0700 (PDT)
Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
[]
> > Erm, this is just more of the same 'et tu Brutti' stuff; could we just get
> > back to On Topic posts?
>
> I'm sorry you had to be exposed to this kind of back and forth so soon, John.
> But it does give you some idea of what a hornet's nest s.b.p. is,
> and talk.origins is much worse yet, because the number of dishonest, hypocritical
> posters there is about ten times as big as it is here, and it extends to
> on-topic debates as well.
>
>
> By the way, I had a real "et tu, Brute" moment during the 2018 unraveling of
> our mid-2015 agreement, described in the reply I did to Harshman
> about half an hour ago.
>
> However, I am a big one for letting bygones be bygones, and as long
> as "Brutus" remains honest and sincere, I won't hold this behavior against him.

I'm really not interested in the history of personal disagreements; (and
certainly want to avoid getting involved in any on-going feuds); I'd like
to stick to taking a look at dispassionate information on the groups stated
topics of interest; early human society here, and any glimpses we can find
(at such a large remove) into how life began in TO.

> >Or maybe I ask too much.
>
> There is on-topic discussion on other threads here. I started a book review
> yesterday, and Pandora started the discussion. Later today I will continue
> both the book review and the discussion on the same thread.
>
Yes, those are good. Thanks again.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 10:16:56 -0700 (PDT)
Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 11:40:28 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > >>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:

[actual information elided]

> > >> You've got to be kidding.
> > >
> > > No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
> > > of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
> > > Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
> > > and lied that everyone knows it.
>
> You do not deny having lied in that way; a prudent course of action,
> since you haven't got a leg to stand on. However, you cast
> prudence to the winds below.
>
> You are guilty below of a dirty debating tactic which I call The One Shade of Gray Meltdown.
>
> This consists of seizing on one or two things two disparate things have in common,
> and pretending there is little or no difference between them.
>
> > So this is your way of avoiding becoming embroiled in interpersonal
> > conflicts?
>
> I gave that advice to John Kerr-Mudd, a newcomer to both talk.origins
> and sci.bio.paleontology. It is an excellent policy for anyone who
> hasn't had many months of observation in talk.origins as to who is guilty
> of dishonest behavior in interpersonal conflicts, and who is
> honest and sincere, even in the midst of these conflicts.

I said I wasn't interested; yet all I get is History.
>
> I neglected to mention that the same
> advice applies to newcomers here.
>
> The reason is that you and erik simpson destroyed an agreement
> we had between us back in mid-2015 to treat sci.bio.paleontology
> like an embassy where we lay aside our personal grievances
> [understood: the ones raging in talk.origins at the time]
> and treat each other like the best of ambassadors.
>
> The agreement lasted until early 2018, when erik refused
> to apologize for a serious breach he had made in that
> agreement right about when I went on a long posting break
> in December 2017. Not only that, but he then gave a totally
> different standard for his own behavior, and you backed him
> all the way.
>
> An accomplice of his who disappeared about a year and a half ago also backed him,
> then helped him to continue in his dishonest, hypocritical ways.
> When his accomplice crossed over a particularly sacrosanct line,
> I boycotted their posts for the rest of 2019.
>
> You, Harshman, raised a big stink about me doing that,
> but I held firm, for several good reasons.
>

FFS knock it off.
Or is this the room for Abuse?. </Python Argument sketch>
(It certainly seems to be a long-running argument).

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 7/26/23 5:21 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 08:40:18 -0700
> John Harshman <john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> []
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
>>>>> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
>>>>> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.
>>>
>>> Your response blithely ignores that last line.
>>>
>>>> You've got to be kidding.
>>>
>>> No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
>>> of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
>>> Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
>>> and lied that everyone knows it.
>>
>> So this is your way of avoiding becoming embroiled in interpersonal
>> conflicts?
>>
>
> Erm, this is just more of the same 'et tu Brutti' stuff; could we just get
> back to On Topic posts? Or maybe I ask too much.
>
All you have to do is say something on-topic. Perhaps someone will
respond to it. Simple.

On 7/26/23 10:16 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 11:40:28 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
>>>>>>>>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>>>>>>>>>>> Mesozoic.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Abstract
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>>>>>>>>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>>>>>>>>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>>>>>>>>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>>>>>>>>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>>>>>>>>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>>>>>>>>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>>>>>>>>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>>>>>>>>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>>>>>>>>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>>>>>>>>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>>>>>>>>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>>>>>>>>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>>>>>>>>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>>>>>>>>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>>>>>>>>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>>>>>>>>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>>>>>>>>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>>>>>>>>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Open access:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>>>>>>>>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
>>>>>>>> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?
>>>>>
>>>>>> No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.
>>>>> I know that, but you are behaving like a smart alec aged 8 years old or less.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is your "sympathy" based on having eaten a good chunk of tinamou meat? Tinamous are the focal point
>>>>> of your one claim to fame, a paper in PNAS co-authored with 18 (or is it 19?) biologists.
>>>>>
>>>>> If so, then I withdraw the claim of "8 years or less". Otherwise, I ask whether
>>>>> your role was that of someone putting together reams of data into a
>>>>> phylogenetic analysis, and if so, did you eat some part of those reams?
>>>>>>> There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
>>>>>>> who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
>>>>>>> returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
>>>>>>> foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
>>>>> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
>>>>> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.
>>>
>>> Your response blithely ignores that last line.
>>>
>>>> You've got to be kidding.
>>>
>>> No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
>>> of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
>>> Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
>>> and lied that everyone knows it.
>
> You do not deny having lied in that way; a prudent course of action,
> since you haven't got a leg to stand on. However, you cast
> prudence to the winds below.

Sorry. I deny having lied that way. Shouldn't have to tell you.

> You are guilty below of a dirty debating tactic which I call The One Shade of Gray Meltdown.
>
> This consists of seizing on one or two things two disparate things have in common,
> and pretending there is little or no difference between them.
>
>> So this is your way of avoiding becoming embroiled in interpersonal
>> conflicts?
>
> I gave that advice to John Kerr-Mudd, a newcomer to both talk.origins
> and sci.bio.paleontology. It is an excellent policy for anyone who
> hasn't had many months of observation in talk.origins as to who is guilty
> of dishonest behavior in interpersonal conflicts, and who is
> honest and sincere, even in the midst of these conflicts.
>
> I neglected to mention that the same
> advice applies to newcomers here.
>
> The reason is that you and erik simpson destroyed an agreement
> we had between us back in mid-2015 to treat sci.bio.paleontology
> like an embassy where we lay aside our personal grievances
> [understood: the ones raging in talk.origins at the time]
> and treat each other like the best of ambassadors.
>
> The agreement lasted until early 2018, when erik refused
> to apologize for a serious breach he had made in that
> agreement right about when I went on a long posting break
> in December 2017. Not only that, but he then gave a totally
> different standard for his own behavior, and you backed him
> all the way.
>
> An accomplice of his who disappeared about a year and a half ago also backed him,
> then helped him to continue in his dishonest, hypocritical ways.
> When his accomplice crossed over a particularly sacrosanct line,
> I boycotted their posts for the rest of 2019.
>
> You, Harshman, raised a big stink about me doing that,
> but I held firm, for several good reasons.

On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 5:41:23 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> On 7/26/23 10:16 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 11:40:28 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> >> On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
> >>>>>>>>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
> >>>>>>>>>>> Mesozoic.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Abstract
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
> >>>>>>>>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
> >>>>>>>>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
> >>>>>>>>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
> >>>>>>>>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
> >>>>>>>>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
> >>>>>>>>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
> >>>>>>>>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
> >>>>>>>>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
> >>>>>>>>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
> >>>>>>>>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
> >>>>>>>>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
> >>>>>>>>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
> >>>>>>>>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
> >>>>>>>>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
> >>>>>>>>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
> >>>>>>>>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
> >>>>>>>>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
> >>>>>>>>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
> >>>>>>>>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Open access:
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
> >>>>>>>>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
> >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
> >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
> >>>>>>>> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.

> >>>>> I know that, but you are behaving like a smart alec aged 8 years old or less.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is your "sympathy" based on having eaten a good chunk of tinamou meat? Tinamous are the focal point
> >>>>> of your one claim to fame, a paper in PNAS co-authored with 18 (or is it 19?) biologists.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If so, then I withdraw the claim of "8 years or less". Otherwise, I ask whether
> >>>>> your role was that of someone putting together reams of data into a
> >>>>> phylogenetic analysis, and if so, did you eat some part of those reams?

<crickets>

> >>>>>>> There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
> >>>>>>> who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
> >>>>>>> returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
> >>>>>>> foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
> >>>>> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
> >>>>> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.
> >>>
> >>> Your response blithely ignores that last line.
> >>>
> >>>> You've got to be kidding.
> >>>
> >>> No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
> >>> of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
> >>> Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
> >>> and lied that everyone knows it.
> >
> > You do not deny having lied in that way; a prudent course of action,
> > since you haven't got a leg to stand on. However, you cast
> > prudence to the winds below.

> Sorry. I deny having lied that way. Shouldn't have to tell you.

Are you really as deluded as that last sentence indicates?

In the first place, you are a known liar. I caught you earlier this year lying about me,
documented here:

https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/cqAQGHmXKAc/m/RhSe0kyFAQAJ
Re: The Silurian hypothesis:
Apr 21, 2023, 9:35:27 PM

You never replied to that, and I documented it again here:

https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/cqAQGHmXKAc/m/1KVDt92EAwAJ
Re: The Silurian hypothesis:
May 3, 2023, 10:00:10 PM

At the end of the latter post, I responded to some silliness by you as follows:

___________________________________________ repost ___________________________

> And now there will be an endless series of back and forth attacks
> resulting from this irrelevant seed.

What nonsense! You never replied to the post I linked at the beginning.
I expect the same to happen to this post.
================================= end of repost

Of course, my "expectation" came true, with not just the first post linked above
entering into the expectation, but with dozens of other such posts over the years,
where the evidence of your dishonesty was just too strong.

On 8/2/23 3:12 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 5:41:23 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 7/26/23 10:16 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 11:40:28 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
>>>>>>>>>>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mesozoic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Abstract
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dinosaurs and mammals have coexisted for the last ~230 million years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both groups arose during the Late Triassic and diversified throughout
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Mesozoic and into the Cenozoic (the latter in the form of birds).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although they undoubtedly interacted in many ways, direct fossil
>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence for their interaction is rare. Here we report a new fossil
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find from the Lujiatun Member of the Lower Cretaceous Yixian Formation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of China, showing a gobiconodontid mammal and psittacosaurid dinosaur
>>>>>>>>>>>>> locked in mortal combat. We entertain various hypothesized
>>>>>>>>>>>>> explanations for this association, but the balance of the evidence
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggests that it represents a predation attempt on the part of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> smaller mammal, suddenly interrupted by, and preserved within, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lahar-type volcanic debris flow. Mesozoic mammals are usually depicted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as having lived in the shadows of their larger dinosaurian
>>>>>>>>>>>>> contemporaries, but this new fossil convincingly demonstrates that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mammals could pose a threat even to near fully-grown dinosaurs. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yixian Formation—and the Chinese fossil Jehol Biota more broadly—have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> played a particularly important role in revealing the diversity of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> small-bodied dinosaurs and other fauna. We anticipate that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> volcanically derived obrution deposits specific to the Lujiatun Member
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will likewise continue to yield evidence for biotic interactions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise unknown from the rest of the fossil record.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Open access:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I celebrate the dominance of Repenomamus by predating on dinosaurs
>>>>>>>>>>>> whenever possible, preferably anatids.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You've got a problem with duck-billed dinosaurs?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The fossil is reminiscent of IGM 100/25, the "fighting dinosaurs:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Dinosaurs
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and the "duelling dinosaurs":
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Dinosaurs
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-finally-set-to-reveal-secrets
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems ceratopsians were in demand in those days.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Incidentally, it's really unfortunate when scientists are unable to eat
>>>>>>>>>> their study organisms. My sympathy to paleontologists.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are you really John Harshman, or a smart alec impersonating him?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No need for impersonation. The real John Harshman is a smart alec.
>
>>>>>>> I know that, but you are behaving like a smart alec aged 8 years old or less.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is your "sympathy" based on having eaten a good chunk of tinamou meat? Tinamous are the focal point
>>>>>>> of your one claim to fame, a paper in PNAS co-authored with 18 (or is it 19?) biologists.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If so, then I withdraw the claim of "8 years or less". Otherwise, I ask whether
>>>>>>> your role was that of someone putting together reams of data into a
>>>>>>> phylogenetic analysis, and if so, did you eat some part of those reams?
>
> <crickets>

What is that even about? Isn't it just you being an asshole, trying to
diminish my scientific career into something you can dismiss? Why should
I try to decipher the insult to make it a serious question about
something or other?

>>>>>>>>> There are precedents. A while back, there was a talk.origins regular
>>>>>>>>> who called himself Steady Eddie. Then he disappeared, but seemingly
>>>>>>>>> returned a few years later. The impostor gave himself away by using
>>>>>>>>> foul language that Eddie wouldn't have dreamed of using.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no such suspicions about Pandora. I think she was just humoring your first remark.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words, she has a sense of humor, which you unfortunately lack.
>>>>>>> You have never tried to explain that perennial canard of yours.
>>>>>>> You certainly haven't shown any support for it here; quite the contrary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your response blithely ignores that last line.
>>>>>
>>>>>> You've got to be kidding.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I am not. The only "support" I have ever seen is endless repetition
>>>>> of the canard, with no attempt to explain why what I write fits it.
>>>>> Harshman even excused himself from an explanation in his own reply,
>>>>> and lied that everyone knows it.
>>>
>>> You do not deny having lied in that way; a prudent course of action,
>>> since you haven't got a leg to stand on. However, you cast
>>> prudence to the winds below.
>
>> Sorry. I deny having lied that way. Shouldn't have to tell you.
>
> Are you really as deluded as that last sentence indicates?

Yes, I'm exactly as deluded as that last sentence indicates, but I
suggest that the degree of indicated delusion is zero.

> In the first place, you are a known liar. I caught you earlier this year lying about me,
> documented here:
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/cqAQGHmXKAc/m/RhSe0kyFAQAJ
> Re: The Silurian hypothesis:
> Apr 21, 2023, 9:35:27 PM

That's not documentation. It's at most a claim that you could document
something if you wanted to. I have no idea what you're talking about,
and have no interest in knowing.

On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 15:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 5:41:23 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > On 7/26/23 10:16 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 11:40:28 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > >> On 7/26/23 6:38 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > >>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 5:52:19 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
> > >>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:20:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > >>>>> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 7/24/23 5:56 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:05:01 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On 7/22/23 2:34 AM, Pandora wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:20:46 -0700, John Harshman
> > >>>>>>>>> <john.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 7/21/23 4:01 AM, Pandora wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> An extraordinary fossil captures the struggle for existence during the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Mesozoic.

[]
>
> I, on the other hand, have had a total of almost two decades
> of interaction in talk.abortion, alt.abortion, talk.origins, and
> sci.bio.paleontology (often simultaneously) with people who
> indulge regularly in dirty debating tactics, and so I am well
> equipped to deal with them. John Kerr-Mudd may be well
> equipped in other forums, but he needs to be able to have some
> idea of where people are coming from before wading in.
>

I have no intention of "wading in" to any disputes here, other than to
state, hopefully for the last time, I'm not interested in bickering, just
a decent debate and new discoveries that shed light on the relevant
topics.

But the signal-to-noise-ratio might try my patience.
might vent.

> > > I neglected to mention that the same
> > > advice applies to newcomers here.
[]

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.