Our Pliocene ancestors lived in S-Asia (we, like all Asian primates, lack the African RV element of chimps, gorillas, baboons, African macaques etc.),
IOW, human ancestors were not in Africa *al least* ~4–3 Ma (Benveniste cs 1976, Yohn cs 2005 PLoS):
australopiths are related to Gorilla (E-Africa) or Pan (S-Africa), not to Homo:
they evolved in parallel gracile->robust:
-- Gorilla afarensis->boisei,
-- Pan africanus->robustus:

Quotations on gorilla-like features in E-African australopith crania:
• “Incisal dental microwear in A.afarensis is most similar to that observed in Gorilla”. Ryan & Johanson 1989.
• The composite skull reconstructed mostly from A.L.333 specimens “looked very much like a small female gorilla”. Johanson & Edey 1981:351.
• “Other primitive [or advanced gorilla-like! MV] features found in KNM-WT 17000, but not know or much discussed for A.afarensis, are: very small cranial capacity; low posterior profile of the calvaria; nasals extended far above the frontomaxillar suture and well onto an uninflated glabella; and extremely convex inferolateral margins of the orbits such as found in some gorillas”. Walker cs 1986.
• As for the maximum parietal breadth and the biauriculare in O.H.5 and KNM-ER 406 “the robust australopithecines have values near the Gorilla mean: both the pongids and the robust australopithecines have highly pneumatized bases”. Kennedy 1991.
• In O.H.5, “the curious and characteristic features of the Paranthropus skull... parallel some of those of the gorilla”. Robinson 1960.
• The A.boisei “lineage has been characterized by sexual dimorphism of the degree seen in modern Gorilla for the length of its known history”. Leakey & Walker 1988.
• A.boisei teeth showed “a relative absence of prism decussation”; among extant hominoids, “Gorilla enamel showed relatively little decussation ...”. Beynon & Wood 1986.

Quotations on chimp+bonobo-like features in S-African australopith crania:
• “Alan [Walker] has analysed a number of Australopithecus robustus teeth and they fall into the fruit-eating category ... their teeth patterns look like those of chimpanzees ... when be looked at some Homo erectus teeth, he found that the pattern changed”. Leakey 1981:74-75.
• “The ‘keystone’ nasal bone arrangement suggested as a derived diagnostic of Paranthropus [robustus] is found in an appreciable number of pongids, particularly clearly in some chimpanzees”. Eckhardt 1987.
• “P.paniscus provides a suitable comparison for Australopithecus [Sts.5]; they are similar in body size, postcranial dimensions and.... even in cranial and facial features”. Zihlman cs 1978.
• “A.africanus Sts.5, which... falls well within the range of Pan troglodytes, is markedly prognathous or hyperprognathous”". Ferguson 1989.
• In Taung, “I see nothing in the orbits, nasal bones, and canine teeth definitely nearer to the human condition than the corresponding parts of the skull of a modern young chimpanzee”. Woodward 1925.
• “The Taung juvenile seems to resemble a young chimpanzee more closely than it resembles L338y-6”, a juvenile A.boisei. Rak & Howell 1978.
• “In addition to similarities in facial remodeling it appears that Taung and Australopithecus in general, had maturation periods similar to those of the extant chimpanzee”. Bromage 1985.
• “I estimate an adult capacity for Taung ranging from 404-420 cm2, with a mean of 412 cm2. Application of Passingham’s curve for brain development in Pan is preferable to that for humans because (a) brain size of early hominids approximates that of chimpanzees, and (b) the curves for brain volume relative to body weight are essentially parallel in pongids and australopithecines, leading Hofman to conclude that ‘as with pongids, the australopithecines probably differed only in size, not in design’”. Falk 1987.
• In Taung, “pneumatization has also extended into the zygoma and hard palate. This is intriguing because an intrapalatal extension of the maxillary sinus has only been reported in chimpanzees and robust australopithecines among higher primates”. Bromage & Dean 1985.
• “That the fossil ape Australopithecus [Taung] ‘is distinguished from all living apes by the... unfused nasal bones…’ as claimed by Dart (1940), cannot be maintained in view of the very considerable number of cases of separate nasal bones among orang-utans and chimpanzees of ages corresponding to that of Australopithecus”. Schultz 1941.

marc verhaegen wrote:

> Our Pliocene ancestors lived in S-Asia (we, like all Asian primates, lack the African RV element of chimps, gorillas, baboons, African macaques etc.),
> IOW, human ancestors were not in Africa *al least* ~4–3 Ma (Benveniste cs 1976, Yohn cs 2005 PLoS):
> australopiths are related to Gorilla (E-Africa) or Pan (S-Africa), not to Homo:
> they evolved in parallel gracile->robust:
> -- Gorilla afarensis->boisei,
> -- Pan africanus->robustus:

There's a lot of little pieces to this, but I think I'm just going to name three:

#1. The Ardi/Lucy like teeth found in Germany and dating on the order of
10 million years!

#2. The 3 to 4 million year old Retro Virus in African apes but not Asian
apes nor humans.

#3. The Chromosome 11 or "Nuclear DNA" insert preserving a mtDNA
line significantly older than any "Mitochondrial Eve" in the Out of Africa
purity model.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/713373848091934720

Op zondag 2 april 2023 om 00:01:23 UTC+2 schreef JTEM:

> > Our Pliocene ancestors lived in S-Asia (we, like all Asian primates, lack the African RV element of chimps, gorillas, baboons, African macaques etc.),
> > IOW, human ancestors were not in Africa *al least* ~4–3 Ma (Benveniste cs 1976, Yohn cs 2005 PLoS):
> > australopiths are related to Gorilla (E-Africa) or Pan (S-Africa), not to Homo:
> > they evolved in parallel gracile->robust:
> > -- Gorilla afarensis->boisei,
> > -- Pan africanus->robustus:

> There's a lot of little pieces to this, but I think I'm just going to name three:
> #1. The Ardi/Lucy-like teeth found in Germany and dating on the order of
> 10 million years!

Miocene Hominoidea at least since 25 Ma followed the Tethys coasts + from there inland in forests along rivers/swamps/lakes...:
- hylobatids (today gibbons+siamangs) -> SE.Asian cloastal forests,
- "great apes" -> SW.Eurasian coastal forests, google "aquarboreal".

When the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure c 15 Ma split the Ind.Ocean from the Medit.Sea:
- pongids-sivapiths -> S.Asian coastal forests (forcing hylobatids higher into the trees?),
- hominids -> Medit.coasts + islands, e.g. (google) Trachilos bipedal footprints.

Medit.hominids died out (heat? drought? flood? cold? ...?) except those in the then incipient Red Sea:
- Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift -> Afar etc.: Lucy etc. (google "Gondwanatalks Verhagen"),
- when de Red Sea opened into the Gulf (Francesca mansfield thinks 5.33 Ma, caused by the Zanclean mega-flood?),
--- Pan went right -> E.Afr.coastal forests -> southern Rift (// Gorilla in N-Rift) -> Transvaal -> Taung etc.
--- Hom went left -> S.Asian coasts -> Java early-Pleist.H.erectus, google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo".

> #2. The 3 to 4 million year old Retro Virus in African apes but not Asian
> apes nor humans.

Of course, JTEM: Pliocene Homo along S.Asian coasts!

> #3. The Chromosome 11 or "Nuclear DNA" insert preserving a mtDNA
> line significantly older than any "Mitochondrial Eve" in the Out of Africa
> purity model.

?? I can't help you here. --marc

Hey Troll

Which part of , Your posting in the wrong usenet group, don't you
understand?

Fucking Asshole

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 11:03:22 AM UTC-4, Ruben Safir wrote:

> Hey Troll

Why the singular? why don't you tell us whom you are addressing?

> Which part of , Your posting in the wrong usenet group, don't you
> understand?

This is the paleontology of our ancestral species/genera.
Perfectly on topic for sci.bio.paleontology.

Granted, it is more in line with the specialty of sci.anthropology.paleo.
But both Marc and JTEM have posted there about this very subject for YEARS,
possibly decades. And they are continuing to post about it there.

> Fucking Asshole

For someone who hates conflict, you sure are abusive here.

Marc, and probably JTEM, are looking here for new perspectives on their theory, and especially
new people to talk to about their theory. And they found me willing to do both.

If you want to complain about SOMETHING they are doing, you could complain about how
they are starting too many threads in short order about pretty much the same subject.
I've complained to Marc about that myself.

But if you were to do it, that would be along the lines of "do as I say, not as I do."

And I do give you credit for not doing that.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On 4/5/23 11:07, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> This is the paleontology of our ancestral species/genera.
> Perfectly on topic for sci.bio.paleontology.

No it is Anthropology and beongs in talk origins.

On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 1:10:51 PM UTC-4, Popping Mad wrote:
> On 4/5/23 11:07, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > This is the paleontology of our ancestral species/genera.
> > Perfectly on topic for sci.bio.paleontology.

> No it is Anthropology and beongs in talk origins.

It is REALLY off topic for talk.origins. No relevance to creationism or Intelligent Design theory [1].

Anthropology and paleontology overlap in a tiny corner of both [2].
Just as biology and chemistry overlap in a tiny corner of both,
and just as chemistry and physics overlap in a tiny corner of both.

[1] If you think creationism is the same thing as ID, you've let a bunch
of ignorant/malicious propagandists pull the wool over your eyes.

[2] Anthropology that studies our hominoid ancestors and relatives
is a SMALL part of physical anthropology, which in turn is a
small part of anthropology.

Paleontology that studies Hominoidea is a tiny corner of paleontology,
but paleontology is incomplete without including our superfamily.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 7:32:43 AM UTC-4, marc verhaegen wrote:
> Op zondag 2 april 2023 om 00:01:23 UTC+2 schreef JTEM:
> > > Our Pliocene ancestors lived in S-Asia (we, like all Asian primates, lack the African RV element of chimps, gorillas, baboons, African macaques etc.),
> > > IOW, human ancestors were not in Africa *al least* ~4–3 Ma (Benveniste cs 1976, Yohn cs 2005 PLoS):

How about a more extensive reference (title of paper, url if known)? Also, a reference to this RV
and in which chromosome of Pan it is found?

This is fairly strong evidence. You need to gather as much information as you
can in the scientific literature, and try to make a case for "Pliocene ancestors lived in Asia"
as you can. Nowadays molecular evidence trumps morphological (including fossil) evidence all the time.

For that reason, I am not asking you about the extensive quotes in your OP about fossils just yet.
Whether I do so in the future will depend on you posting precise citations (title, journal).

> > > australopiths are related to Gorilla (E-Africa) or Pan (S-Africa), not to Homo:
> > > they evolved in parallel gracile->robust:
> > > -- Gorilla afarensis->boisei,
> > > -- Pan africanus->robustus:
>
> > There's a lot of little pieces to this, but I think I'm just going to name three:
> > #1. The Ardi/Lucy-like teeth found in Germany and dating on the order of
> > 10 million years!

Why didn't you ask for a reference, Marc? Your response is on a totally different subject--
an especially blatant form of "going off on a tangent." You don't even show
any sign of having read #1.

> Miocene Hominoidea at least since 25 Ma followed the Tethys coasts + from there inland in forests along rivers/swamps/lakes...:
> - hylobatids (today gibbons+siamangs) -> SE.Asian cloastal forests,
> - "great apes" -> SW.Eurasian coastal forests, google "aquarboreal".
>
> When the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure c 15 Ma split the Ind.Ocean from the Medit.Sea:
> - pongids-sivapiths -> S.Asian coastal forests (forcing hylobatids higher into the trees?),
> - hominids -> Medit.coasts + islands, e.g. (google) Trachilos bipedal footprints.
>
> Medit.hominids died out (heat? drought? flood? cold? ...?) except those in the then incipient Red Sea:
> - Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift -> Afar etc.: Lucy etc. (google "Gondwanatalks Verhagen"),
> - when de Red Sea opened into the Gulf (Francesca mansfield thinks 5.33 Ma, caused by the Zanclean mega-flood?),

How about a reference to Francesca hypothesizing that? A good scientist
keeps records of who said what, where.

> --- Pan went right -> E.Afr.coastal forests ->

Pan IS there, but for the rest you get more and more dependent on your HYPOTHESIS
that Pan and Gorilla are descended from {Sahelanthropus and/or Ardipithecus and/or Australopithecus and/or Paranthropus}.

> southern Rift (// Gorilla in N-Rift) -> Transvaal -> Taung etc.

> --- Hom went left -> S.Asian coasts -> Java early-Pleist.H.erectus, google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo".

No fossil evidence before that Java child ca. 1.4 mya. And then there is the African, Homo habilis.

> > #2. The 3 to 4 million year old Retro Virus in African apes but not Asian
> > apes nor humans.

Well, duh, all extant hominids are believed to have diverged from Homo more than 4 million years ago.
Do the two of you argue otherwise?

What you wrote was much stronger, since you mentioned macaques. But what about other African
monkeys? Perhaps human ancestors had immunity to the RV, or perhaps it was fatal to them and not to chimp
or gorilla ancestors. Only the ones that didn't catch it survived to evolve into us, perhaps?

> Of course, JTEM: Pliocene Homo along S.Asian coasts!

Sheer speculation in the absence of fossils or tools or other artifacts.

In fact, you have no evidence that Homo existed before the Pleistocene, do you?

> > #3. The Chromosome 11 or "Nuclear DNA" insert preserving a mtDNA
> > line significantly older than any "Mitochondrial Eve" in the Out of Africa
> > purity model.

Mitochondrial Eve is Homo sapiens sapiens, a mere 200 kya.

> ?? I can't help you here. --marc

Indeed, it's not relevant to anything you said above, nor to your
"Out of Asia" hypothesis. By that time, even if Homo arose in Asia,
it might well have had members of Homo sapiens migrate to Africa.

By the way, have you ever posted the above statements in sci.anthropology.paleo?
What kind of responses did you get there?

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

Peter Nyikos wrote:

> Also, a reference to this RV
> and in which chromosome of Pan it is found?

One obvious symptom of a rather serious mental disorder is the need
to obstruct/stop any conversation you can't control. And here you are
admitting that you never Googled this stuff -- because if you did you
found it -- and you're just obstructing. You're a brainless monkey chucking
wrenches into the gear works, trying to break things down.

Google it. Pretend you're interested in this topic, pretend you have some
intellectual curiosity and Google it.

As you claim to be functionary illiterate I'll help. Type the following into
Google: african ape retrovirus not in humans

You don't deserve respect. You deserve to not be respected, acting out
the way you do.

Speaking to a mental health provider. You clearly have some flavor of
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Maybe they can help.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/713876271508193280

Op zaterdag 8 april 2023 om 03:16:53 UTC+2 schreef Peter Nyikos:
> On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 7:32:43 AM UTC-4, marc verhaegen wrote:
> > Op zondag 2 april 2023 om 00:01:23 UTC+2 schreef JTEM:
> > > > Our Pliocene ancestors lived in S-Asia (we, like all Asian primates, lack the African RV element of chimps, gorillas, baboons, African macaques etc.),
> > > > IOW, human ancestors were not in Africa *al least* ~4–3 Ma (Benveniste cs 1976, Yohn cs 2005 PLoS):
> How about a more extensive reference (title of paper, url if known)? Also, a reference to this RV
> and in which chromosome of Pan it is found?

Evolution of type C viral genes: evidence for an Asian origin of man
Raoul Benveniste & George Todaro 1976 Nature 261:101-8
OWMs & apes incl.man possess, as a normal component of their cellular DNA, gene sequences (virogenes) related to the RNA of a vims isolated from baboons.
A comparison of the viral gene sequences & the other cellular sequences distinguishes those OWMs & apes that have evolved in Africa from those that have evolved in Asia.
Among the apes, only gorilla & chimpanzee seem by these criteria to be African:
gibbon, orangutan & man are identified as Asian, leading us to conclude that most of man's evolution has occurred outside Africa.

Lineage-specific expansions of retroviral insertions within the genomes of African great apes but not humans and orangutans
Chris Yohn cs 2005 PLoS free doi 10.1371/journal.pbio.0030110
RV.infections of the germ-line have the potential to episodically alter gene function & genome structure during the course of evolution.
Horizontal transmissions between spp have been proposed, but little evidence exists for such events in the human/gr.ape lineage of evolution.
Based on analysis of finished BAC chimpanzee genome sequence, we characterize a retroviral element (Pan troglodytes endogenous RV.1 PTERV1) that has become integrated in the germ-line of African gr.ape & OWM spp, but is absent from humans & Asian ape genomes.
We unambiguously map 287 RV integration sites: c 95.8 % of the insertions occur at non-orthologous regions between closely related spp.
Phylogenetic analysis of the endogenous RV reveals:
Gorilla & Pan elements share a monophyletic origin with a subset of the OWM RV.elements,
but the average sequence divergence exceeds neutral expectation for a strictly nuclear inherited DNA molecule.
Within Pan, there is a significant integration bias against genes: only 14 of these insertions map within intronic regions.
6 out of 10 of these genes, for which there are expression data, show significant differences in transcript expression between human & chimp.
Our data are consistent with a RV.infection that bombarded the genomes of chimp & gorilla independently & concurrently, 3-4 Ma.
We speculate on the potential impact of such recent events on the evolution of humans & great apes.

____

Very likely IMO (as proposed by Francesca Mansfield in an email to me):
the Zanclean mega-flood 5.33 Ma opened the Red Sea into the Gulf:
- Pan went right: E.Afr.coastal forests -> S-Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->robustus,
- Pliocene Homo went left: S.Asian coast -> early-Pleist. H.erectus Mojokerto etc.:
H.erectus skull, femur, pelvis etc. = pachy-osteo-sclerotic:
POS is exclusively seen in slow+shallow-diving tetrapods:
cf. also stone tools, large brain (DHA in seafood), island colonizations, platycephaly etc.
https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/

____

>
> This is fairly strong evidence. You need to gather as much information as you
> can in the scientific literature, and try to make a case for "Pliocene ancestors lived in Asia"
> as you can. Nowadays molecular evidence trumps morphological (including fossil) evidence all the time.
>
> For that reason, I am not asking you about the extensive quotes in your OP about fossils just yet.
> Whether I do so in the future will depend on you posting precise citations (title, journal).
> > > > australopiths are related to Gorilla (E-Africa) or Pan (S-Africa), not to Homo:
> > > > they evolved in parallel gracile->robust:
> > > > -- Gorilla afarensis->boisei,
> > > > -- Pan africanus->robustus:
> >
> > > There's a lot of little pieces to this, but I think I'm just going to name three:
> > > #1. The Ardi/Lucy-like teeth found in Germany and dating on the order of
> > > 10 million years!
> Why didn't you ask for a reference, Marc? Your response is on a totally different subject--
> an especially blatant form of "going off on a tangent." You don't even show
> any sign of having read #1.
> > Miocene Hominoidea at least since 25 Ma followed the Tethys coasts + from there inland in forests along rivers/swamps/lakes...:
> > - hylobatids (today gibbons+siamangs) -> SE.Asian cloastal forests,
> > - "great apes" -> SW.Eurasian coastal forests, google "aquarboreal".
> >
> > When the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure c 15 Ma split the Ind.Ocean from the Medit.Sea:
> > - pongids-sivapiths -> S.Asian coastal forests (forcing hylobatids higher into the trees?),
> > - hominids -> Medit.coasts + islands, e.g. (google) Trachilos bipedal footprints.
> >
> > Medit.hominids died out (heat? drought? flood? cold? ...?) except those in the then incipient Red Sea:
> > - Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift -> Afar etc.: Lucy etc. (google "Gondwanatalks Verhagen"),
> > - when de Red Sea opened into the Gulf (Francesca mansfield thinks 5.33 Ma, caused by the Zanclean mega-flood?),
> How about a reference to Francesca hypothesizing that? A good scientist
> keeps records of who said what, where.
> > --- Pan went right -> E.Afr.coastal forests ->
> Pan IS there, but for the rest you get more and more dependent on your HYPOTHESIS
> that Pan and Gorilla are descended from {Sahelanthropus and/or Ardipithecus and/or Australopithecus and/or Paranthropus}.
> > southern Rift (// Gorilla in N-Rift) -> Transvaal -> Taung etc.
>
>
> > --- Homo went left -> S.Asian coasts -> Java early-Pleist.H.erectus, google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo".
> No fossil evidence before that Java child ca. 1.4 mya. And then there is the African, Homo habilis.
> > > #2. The 3 to 4 million year old Retro Virus in African apes but not Asian
> > > apes nor humans.
> Well, duh, all extant hominids are believed to have diverged from Homo more than 4 million years ago.
> Do the two of you argue otherwise?
>
> What you wrote was much stronger, since you mentioned macaques. But what about other African
> monkeys? Perhaps human ancestors had immunity to the RV, or perhaps it was fatal to them and not to chimp
> or gorilla ancestors. Only the ones that didn't catch it survived to evolve into us, perhaps?
> > Of course, JTEM: Pliocene Homo along S.Asian coasts!
> Sheer speculation in the absence of fossils or tools or other artifacts.
>
> In fact, you have no evidence that Homo existed before the Pleistocene, do you?
> > > #3. The Chromosome 11 or "Nuclear DNA" insert preserving a mtDNA
> > > line significantly older than any "Mitochondrial Eve" in the Out of Africa
> > > purity model.
> Mitochondrial Eve is Homo sapiens sapiens, a mere 200 kya.
> > ?? I can't help you here. --marc
> Indeed, it's not relevant to anything you said above, nor to your
> "Out of Asia" hypothesis. By that time, even if Homo arose in Asia,
> it might well have had members of Homo sapiens migrate to Africa.
>
>
> By the way, have you ever posted the above statements in sci.anthropology..paleo?
> What kind of responses did you get there?
> Peter Nyikos
> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos