Le 2024-03-16 à 05:31, Whisper a écrit :
> On 16/03/2024 9:27 am, Kualinar wrote:
>> Le 2024-03-15 à 13:57, David Hartung a écrit :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another
>>>>>> natural process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural
>>>>>> processes just happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just happen?
>>>>> What is you [sic] evidence for that?
>>>>
>>>> Same answer. You believe that "natural processes" were created or
>>>> caused by "god." What is *your* (not "you") evidence for that? Let's
>>>> have it.
>>>
>>> More evasion.,
>>>
>> Not at all. Just a rebuttal at your pathetic attempt at plugging your
>> flimsy god of the gap fallacy.
>> God is not the answer. There is no need to add a god, any god at all.
>> It just add unneeded complexity, unneeded agency, when none is required.
>>
>> Before plugging your god, YOU have the burden of proof to demonstrate
>> that a god is even possible, then, demonstrate that it can be your
>> favourite pet god and not one of the MILLIONS of other god from
>> history and fiction.
>> I'll pray the grand Flying Spaghetti Monster to grace you with his
>> noddley grandeur. Ramen.
>> May Lisa the Rainbow Giraffe smile upon you.
>
>
> I don't believe in god without evidence.  I do believe in natural
> selection, but that doesn't answer my other question 'how did natural
> selection start?'.  You dismissed it as stupidity on my part, but that
> just makes you sound like you have no fucking idea, which is obvious
> when reading your posts.  Your answer is no different to 'god did it'.
>
>
Natural selection started when life emerged. Evolution and natural
selections are natural processes. Life is a natural process. The
question «how did natural selection start ?» is just an attempt at
reversing the burden of proof.

Le 2024-03-16 à 08:50, David Hartung a écrit :
> On 3/15/24 20:58, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>> David Hartung <junk@nogood.com> wrote in
>> news:UySdnTsgoMGt8Gn4nZ2dnZfqnPsAAAAA@giganews.com:
>>
>>> On 3/15/24 10:29, Kualinar wrote:
>>>> Le 2024-03-15 à 08:38, Whisper a écrit :
>>>>> On 15/03/2024 7:13 am, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Whisper" <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:65f2d76f$1@news.ausics.net...
>>>>>>> On 14/03/2024 12:47 am, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>>>> Le 2024-03-12 à 17:50, Skeeter a écrit :
>>>>>>>>> In article <usqf5b$g9dd$1@dont-email.me>, kuakinar@videotron.ca
>>>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you can't prove anything else. So where did it all come
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> just saying 'god' is not the answer.  Where did god come
>>>>>>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Where did human intelligence come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An emerging property if a complex brain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where did the brain come from.
>>>>>>>> Evolution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural
>>>> process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just
>>>> happen.
>>>
>>> Just happen?
>>
>>
>>      Yes.
>>
>>
>>> What is you evidence for that?
>>>
>>
>>      Geology, botany, paleontology,
>> microbiology, astronomy, climatology,
>> archeology, cosmology.............
>>
>>
>> https://opengeology.org/historicalgeology/a-brief-history-of-earth/
>
> This is the only link which discusses the origin of life and possible
> evolution. Here is the first paragraph in that section:
> [...]
> Early life in the Archean and earlier is poorly documented in the fossil
> record. Based on chemical evidence and evolutionary theory, scientists
> propose this life would have been single-celled photosynthetic
> organisms, such as the cyanobacteria that created stromatolites.
> Cyanobacteria produced free oxygen in the atmosphere through
> photosynthesis. Cyanobacteria, archaea, and bacteria are
> prokaryotes—primitive organisms made of single cells that lack cell
> nuclei and other organelles.
> [...]
>
> "Scientists propose". In other words, we don't yet know.

In science, when you propose something, it mean «Here is ONE of your
current way something happened».
Yes, we don't know exactly how life started. We may never know exactly
how it started.
There is an error in that quote. The first life did not have
photosynthesis. For over a billion years, there was no photosynthesis.
The apparition of photosynthesis initiated the Great Oxygenation event
that resulted in the first mass extinction that killed most of the
anaerobic life that existed up to that time.

Le 2024-03-16 à 08:23, David Hartung a écrit :
> On 3/15/24 13:46, Siri Cruise wrote:
>> Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>
>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>
>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural
>>> process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just
>>> happen.
>>
>> Biological evolution is an observed over the last 10.000 years or so.
>> Darwin could explain variation of domesticated plants and animals by
>> farmers who selected breeding pairs. He observed farmer selection had
>> led to wide variety which also resulted in similar but distinct forms.
>
> Natural selection may explain how species change as conditions change,
> but it does not explain how life came to be, or how life "evolved" from
> simple forms to complex forms. It seems that scientists have no managed
> to create artificial RNA molecules, but that is a long way from an
> artificial life form. At this point the belief that there is an
> intelligent designer behind creation is as rational as the belief that
> no such designer exists.
>
The apparition of life is the domain of abiogenesis.
Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution.
As soon as life appeared, evolution started. As evolution started,
natural selection also started.
Evolution happen. Increasing complexity is a byproduct of the
evolutionary process.
Evolution DO NOT have any goal.
Evolution is NOT directed.
Evolution is dumb and blind.
Evolution DO NOT have a purpose.
Evolution just happen.
Evolution just make the less fit organism die out, and the more fit to
prosper. THAT'S what natural selection is.
Here, more fit mean more adapted to the conditions, NOT stronger.
The sloth is slow. For the sloth, being slow is an evolutionary
advantage : Use less resources for the locomotion.
The koala have a very simple brain and is very dumb. For the koala, the
lack of intelligence is an evolutionary advantage : Use less resources
for the nervous system.
There is no trace of design in nature, so, no need for any «intelligent
designer». We may attribute some quality associated with design in
nature, but, that don't mean that there is a design.

Adding a designer add complexity without improving our comprehension.

On 3/16/2024 5:50 AM, David Hartung wrote:
> On 3/15/24 20:58, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>> David Hartung <junk@nogood.com> wrote in
>> news:UySdnTsgoMGt8Gn4nZ2dnZfqnPsAAAAA@giganews.com:
>>
>>> On 3/15/24 10:29, Kualinar wrote:
>>>> Le 2024-03-15 à 08:38, Whisper a écrit :
>>>>> On 15/03/2024 7:13 am, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Whisper" <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:65f2d76f$1@news.ausics.net...
>>>>>>> On 14/03/2024 12:47 am, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>>>> Le 2024-03-12 à 17:50, Skeeter a écrit :
>>>>>>>>> In article <usqf5b$g9dd$1@dont-email.me>, kuakinar@videotron.ca
>>>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you can't prove anything else. So where did it all come
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> just saying 'god' is not the answer.  Where did god come
>>>>>>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Where did human intelligence come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An emerging property if a complex brain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where did the brain come from.
>>>>>>>> Evolution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural
>>>> process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just
>>>> happen.
>>>
>>> Just happen?
>>
>>
>>      Yes.
>>
>>
>>> What is you evidence for that?
>>>
>>
>>      Geology, botany, paleontology,
>> microbiology, astronomy, climatology,
>> archeology, cosmology.............
>>
>>
>> https://opengeology.org/historicalgeology/a-brief-history-of-earth/
>
> This is the only link which discusses the origin of life and possible evolution.
> Here is the first paragraph in that section:
> [...]
> Early life in the Archean and earlier is poorly documented in the fossil record.
> Based on chemical evidence and evolutionary theory, scientists propose this life
> would have been single-celled photosynthetic organisms, such as the
> cyanobacteria that created stromatolites. Cyanobacteria produced free oxygen in
> the atmosphere through photosynthesis. Cyanobacteria, archaea, and bacteria are
> prokaryotes—primitive organisms made of single cells that lack cell nuclei and
> other organelles.

A whole bunch of words Hartung has never heard nor read before.

> [...]
>
> "Scientists propose". In other words, we don't yet know.

And so you propose your "god of the gaps" fallacy to supply an answer that you
find comforting, but not necessarily right...and probably wrong.

Why are you so fearful?

On 3/16/2024 5:23 AM, David Hartung wrote:
> On 3/15/24 13:46, Siri Cruise wrote:
>> Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>
>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two posts, you
>>> have proven that to be wrong.
>>>
>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural process.
>>> NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just happen.
>>
>> Biological evolution is an observed over the last 10.000 years or so. Darwin
>> could explain variation of domesticated plants and animals by farmers who
>> selected breeding pairs. He observed farmer selection had led to wide variety
>> which also resulted in similar but distinct forms.
>
> Natural selection may explain how species change as conditions change, but it
> does not explain how life came to be, or how life "evolved" from simple forms to
> complex forms. It seems that scientists have no managed to create artificial RNA
> molecules, but that is a long way from an artificial life form. At this point
> the belief that there is an intelligent designer behind creation is as rational
> as the belief that no such designer exists.

No, your belief is irrational, because you have no evidence. You're arguing
circularly again.

On 3/16/2024 5:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
> On 3/15/24 13:27, Max Boot wrote:
>> On 3/15/2024 10:57 AM, David Hartung wrote:
>>> On 3/15/24 12:33, Max Boot wrote:
>>>> On 3/15/2024 8:45 AM, David Hartung wrote:
>>>>> On 3/15/24 10:29, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>> Le 2024-03-15 à 08:38, Whisper a écrit :
>>>>>>> On 15/03/2024 7:13 am, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Whisper" <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:65f2d76f$1@news.ausics.net...
>>>>>>>>> On 14/03/2024 12:47 am, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-03-12 à 17:50, Skeeter a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <usqf5b$g9dd$1@dont-email.me>, kuakinar@videotron.ca says...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you can't prove anything else. So where did it all come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just saying 'god' is not the answer.  Where did god come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where did human intelligence come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> An emerging property if a complex brain.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Where did the brain come from.
>>>>>>>>>> Evolution.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two posts, you
>>>>>> have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural
>>>>>> process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just happen?
>>>>> What is you [sic] evidence for that?
>>>>
>>>> Same answer. You believe that "natural processes" were created or caused by
>>>> "god." What is *your* (not "you") evidence for that? Let's have it.
>>>
>>> More evasion
>>
>> Yes: yours, as you always do on this topic.
>>
>> The ball is in your court, but you don't know how to play the game.
>
> Actually it is not.

It is.

>> Didn't I just instruct you on this point earlier today? Yeah, I did. Here it
>> is again:
>>
>>     When you and your fellow knuckle-dragging right-wingnut Kremlin Girl / Bit of
>>     Nothingness blurt "evasion noted," what you're really doing is conceding
>>     defeat. Your concession of defeat is noted.
>>
>> Both you and she concede defeat almost daily by blabbering "evasion noted" or
>> "more evasion," when in fact, the only evasion is coming from you two fuckwits
>> because you can't support your claims.
>
> Out of curiosity, exactly what claim am I refusing to support this time?

That there is a 'god'. But you already knew that, so you just posed yet another
bad-faith question.

Whisper <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> On 16/03/2024 2:45 am, David Hartung wrote:
> > On 3/15/24 10:29, Kualinar wrote:
> >> Le 2024-03-15 à 08:38, Whisper a écrit :
> >>> On 15/03/2024 7:13 am, Scout wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Whisper" <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
> >>>> news:65f2d76f$1@news.ausics.net...
> >>>>> On 14/03/2024 12:47 am, Kualinar wrote:
> >>>>>> Le 2024-03-12 à 17:50, Skeeter a écrit :
> >>>>>>> In article <usqf5b$g9dd$1@dont-email.me>, kuakinar@videotron.ca
> >>>>>>> says...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> But you can't prove anything else. So where did it all come
> >>>>>>>>>>> from?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> just saying 'god' is not the answer.  Where did god come from?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Where did human intelligence come from?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> An emerging property if a complex brain.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Where did the brain come from.
> >>>>>> Evolution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Something must have created evolution?
> >>>>
> >>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
> >> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two posts,
> >> you have proven that to be wrong.
> >>
> >> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural
> >> process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just
> >> happen.
> >
> > Just happen?
> > What is you evidence for that?
> >
>
>
> Let's hope he can explain what he really means by 'just happen' : )

Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.

Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.

In article <G9mJN.578044$xHn7.379456@fx14.iad>, max.boot@lathymes.com
says...
>
> On 3/16/2024 5:23 AM, David Hartung wrote:
> > On 3/15/24 13:46, Siri Cruise wrote:
> >> Kualinar wrote:
> >>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
> >>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two posts, you
> >>> have proven that to be wrong.
> >>>
> >>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural process.
> >>> NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just happen.
> >>
> >> Biological evolution is an observed over the last 10.000 years or so. Darwin
> >> could explain variation of domesticated plants and animals by farmers who
> >> selected breeding pairs. He observed farmer selection had led to wide variety
> >> which also resulted in similar but distinct forms.
> >
> > Natural selection may explain how species change as conditions change, but it
> > does not explain how life came to be, or how life "evolved" from simple forms to
> > complex forms. It seems that scientists have no managed to create artificial RNA
> > molecules, but that is a long way from an artificial life form. At this point
> > the belief that there is an intelligent designer behind creation is as rational
> > as the belief that no such designer exists.
>
> No, your belief is irrational, because you have no evidence. You're arguing
> circularly again.

What evidence do you have to refute?

Kualinar wrote:
>
> YOU are the one making a positive claim, so, YOU are the one with
> the burden of proof.
> I just don't accept your claim. I just don't believe in a god, any
> god.

Once you know deMorgan, 'positive claim' is verbal diarrhea.

The usual rule is proof of an assertion is on the person. The
actual rule is the burden of proof on whoever wants to change your
mind.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Whisper wrote:

> I don't believe in god without evidence.  I do believe in natural
> selection, but that doesn't answer my other question 'how did
> natural selection start?'.

As a hypothesis it started when Wallace and Darwin thought it up.

It's like asking when did Maxwell's equations start.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

David Hartung wrote:
> but it does not explain how life came to be

Nor do biologist propose natural selection to explain the origin.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Kualinar wrote:
> Le 2024-03-15 à 13:57, David Hartung a écrit :
>> On 3/15/24 12:33, Max Boot wrote:
>>> On 3/15/2024 8:45 AM, David Hartung wrote:
>>>> On 3/15/24 10:29, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>> Le 2024-03-15 à 08:38, Whisper a écrit :
>>>>>> On 15/03/2024 7:13 am, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Whisper" <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:65f2d76f$1@news.ausics.net...
>>>>>>>> On 14/03/2024 12:47 am, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-03-12 à 17:50, Skeeter a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>> In article <usqf5b$g9dd$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>> kuakinar@videotron.ca says...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you can't prove anything else. So where did it all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just saying 'god' is not the answer. Where did god come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Where did human intelligence come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> An emerging property if a complex brain.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Where did the brain come from.
>>>>>>>>> Evolution.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another
>>>>> natural process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural
>>>>> processes just happen.
>>>>
>>>> Just happen?
>>>> What is you [sic] evidence for that?
>>>
>>> Same answer. You believe that "natural processes" were created or
>>> caused by "god." What is *your* (not "you") evidence for that? Let's
>>> have it.
>>
>> More evasion.,
>>
> Not at all. Just a rebuttal at your pathetic attempt at plugging your
> flimsy god of the gap fallacy.
> God is not the answer. There is no need to add a god, any god at all.
> It just add unneeded complexity, unneeded agency, when none is required.

yes indeed

>
> Before plugging your god, YOU have the burden of proof to demonstrate
> that a god is even possible, then, demonstrate that it can be your
> favourite pet god and not one of the MILLIONS of other god from
> history and fiction.
> I'll pray the grand Flying Spaghetti Monster to grace you with his
> noddley grandeur. Ramen.
> May Lisa the Rainbow Giraffe smile upon you.

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

Whisper wrote:
> On 16/03/2024 9:27 am, Kualinar wrote:
>> Le 2024-03-15 à 13:57, David Hartung a écrit :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another
>>>>>> natural process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural
>>>>>> processes just happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just happen?
>>>>> What is you [sic] evidence for that?
>>>>
>>>> Same answer. You believe that "natural processes" were created or
>>>> caused by "god." What is *your* (not "you") evidence for that?
>>>> Let's have it.
>>>
>>> More evasion.,
>>>
>> Not at all. Just a rebuttal at your pathetic attempt at plugging your
>> flimsy god of the gap fallacy.
>> God is not the answer. There is no need to add a god, any god at all.
>> It just add unneeded complexity, unneeded agency, when none is required.
>>
>> Before plugging your god, YOU have the burden of proof to demonstrate
>> that a god is even possible, then, demonstrate that it can be your
>> favourite pet god and not one of the MILLIONS of other god from
>> history and fiction.
>> I'll pray the grand Flying Spaghetti Monster to grace you with his
>> noddley grandeur. Ramen.
>> May Lisa the Rainbow Giraffe smile upon you.
>
>
> I don't believe in god without evidence.  I do believe in natural
> selection, but that doesn't answer my other question 'how did natural
> selection start?'.

so your question then is, how did life begin. science has progressively
been trying to answer that. natural selection however is simply
organism's response to their environment.

> You dismissed it as stupidity on my part, but that just makes you
> sound like you have no fucking idea, which is obvious when reading
> your posts.  Your answer is no different to 'god did it'.
>
>

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"Religion is an evil who's goal is mind control"

David Hartung wrote:
> On 3/15/24 20:58, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>> David Hartung <junk@nogood.com> wrote in
>> news:UySdnTsgoMGt8Gn4nZ2dnZfqnPsAAAAA@giganews.com:
>>
>>> On 3/15/24 10:29, Kualinar wrote:
>>>> Le 2024-03-15 à 08:38, Whisper a écrit :
>>>>> On 15/03/2024 7:13 am, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Whisper" <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:65f2d76f$1@news.ausics.net...
>>>>>>> On 14/03/2024 12:47 am, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>>>> Le 2024-03-12 à 17:50, Skeeter a écrit :
>>>>>>>>> In article <usqf5b$g9dd$1@dont-email.me>, kuakinar@videotron.ca
>>>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you can't prove anything else. So where did it all come
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> just saying 'god' is not the answer.  Where did god come
>>>>>>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Where did human intelligence come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An emerging property if a complex brain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where did the brain come from.
>>>>>>>> Evolution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural
>>>> process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just
>>>> happen.
>>>
>>> Just happen?
>>
>>
>>      Yes.
>>
>>
>>> What is you evidence for that?
>>>
>>
>>      Geology, botany, paleontology,
>> microbiology, astronomy, climatology,
>> archeology, cosmology.............
>>
>>
>> https://opengeology.org/historicalgeology/a-brief-history-of-earth/
>
> This is the only link which discusses the origin of life and possible
> evolution. Here is the first paragraph in that section:
> [...]
> Early life in the Archean and earlier is poorly documented in the
> fossil record. Based on chemical evidence and evolutionary theory,
> scientists propose this life would have been single-celled
> photosynthetic organisms, such as the cyanobacteria that created
> stromatolites. Cyanobacteria produced free oxygen in the atmosphere
> through photosynthesis. Cyanobacteria, archaea, and bacteria are
> prokaryotes—primitive organisms made of single cells that lack cell
> nuclei and other organelles.
> [...]
>
> "Scientists propose". In other words, we don't yet know.

but you KNOW  'God did it', right?

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"Religion is an evil who's goal is mind control"

Max Boot <max.boot@lathymes.com> wrote in
news:B9mJN.578041$xHn7.27465@fx14.iad:

> On 3/16/2024 5:50 AM, David Hartung wrote:
>> On 3/15/24 20:58, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>> David Hartung <junk@nogood.com> wrote in
>>> news:UySdnTsgoMGt8Gn4nZ2dnZfqnPsAAAAA@giganews.com:
>>>
>>>> On 3/15/24 10:29, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>> Le 2024-03-15 à 08:38, Whisper a écrit :
>>>>>> On 15/03/2024 7:13 am, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Whisper" <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:65f2d76f$1@news.ausics.net...
>>>>>>>> On 14/03/2024 12:47 am, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-03-12 à 17:50, Skeeter a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>> In article <usqf5b$g9dd$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>> kuakinar@videotron.ca says...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you can't prove anything else. So where did it all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just saying 'god' is not the answer.  Where did god come
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Where did human intelligence come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> An emerging property if a complex brain.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Where did the brain come from.
>>>>>>>>> Evolution.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another
>>>>> natural process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural
>>>>> processes just happen.
>>>>
>>>> Just happen?
>>>
>>>
>>>      Yes.
>>>
>>>
>>>> What is you evidence for that?
>>>>
>>>
>>>      Geology, botany, paleontology,
>>> microbiology, astronomy, climatology,
>>> archeology, cosmology.............
>>>
>>>
>>> https://opengeology.org/historicalgeology/a-brief-history-of-earth/
>>
>> This is the only link which discusses the origin of life and possible
>> evolution. Here is the first paragraph in that section:
>> [...]
>> Early life in the Archean and earlier is poorly documented in the
>> fossil record. Based on chemical evidence and evolutionary theory,
>> scientists propose this life would have been single-celled
>> photosynthetic organisms, such as the cyanobacteria that created
>> stromatolites. Cyanobacteria produced free oxygen in the atmosphere
>> through photosynthesis. Cyanobacteria, archaea, and bacteria are
>> prokaryotes—primitive organisms made of single cells that lack cell
>> nuclei and other organelles.
>
> A whole bunch of words Hartung has never heard nor read before.
>
>> [...]
>>
>> "Scientists propose". In other words, we don't yet know.
>
> And so you propose your "god of the gaps" fallacy to supply an answer
> that you find comforting, but not necessarily right...and probably
> wrong.
>

Hartung doesn't care if an answer is
right or wrong, only that it is biblical.

Because the Bible has never been
disproved, you know.

"Had anything in the Bible been disproved,
you might have a point."
David Hartung, Jan 10, 2012

> Why are you so fearful?

Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote in news:ut4hi0$2vtb7$1@dont-
email.me:

> Le 2024-03-16 à 08:23, David Hartung a écrit :
>> On 3/15/24 13:46, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>> Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural
>>>> process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just
>>>> happen.
>>>
>>> Biological evolution is an observed over the last 10.000 years or so.
>>> Darwin could explain variation of domesticated plants and animals by
>>> farmers who selected breeding pairs. He observed farmer selection had
>>> led to wide variety which also resulted in similar but distinct
forms.
>>
>> Natural selection may explain how species change as conditions change,
>> but it does not explain how life came to be, or how life "evolved"
from
>> simple forms to complex forms. It seems that scientists have no
managed
>> to create artificial RNA molecules, but that is a long way from an
>> artificial life form. At this point the belief that there is an
>> intelligent designer behind creation is as rational as the belief that
>> no such designer exists.
>>
> The apparition of life is the domain of abiogenesis.
> Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution.
> As soon as life appeared, evolution started. As evolution started,
> natural selection also started.
> Evolution happen. Increasing complexity is a byproduct of the
> evolutionary process.
> Evolution DO NOT have any goal.
> Evolution is NOT directed.
> Evolution is dumb and blind.
> Evolution DO NOT have a purpose.
> Evolution just happen.
> Evolution just make the less fit organism die out, and the more fit to
> prosper. THAT'S what natural selection is.
> Here, more fit mean more adapted to the conditions, NOT stronger.
> The sloth is slow. For the sloth, being slow is an evolutionary
> advantage : Use less resources for the locomotion.
> The koala have a very simple brain and is very dumb. For the koala, the
> lack of intelligence is an evolutionary advantage : Use less resources
> for the nervous system.
> There is no trace of design in nature, so, no need for any �
�intelligent
> designer». We may attribute some quality associated with design in
> nature, but, that don't mean that there is a design.
>
> Adding a designer add complexity without improving our comprehension.
>

This "designer" cannot be very intelligent,
given that 99% of the species it created failed
went extinct.

Max Boot wrote:
>> This is the only link which discusses the origin of life and
>> possible evolution. Here is the first paragraph in that section:
>> [...]
>> Early life in the Archean and earlier is poorly documented in
>> the fossil record. Based on chemical evidence and evolutionary
>> theory, scientists propose this life would have been
>> single-celled photosynthetic organisms, such as the
>> cyanobacteria that created stromatolites. Cyanobacteria produced
>> free oxygen in the atmosphere through photosynthesis.
>> Cyanobacteria, archaea, and bacteria are prokaryotes—primitive
>> organisms made of single cells that lack cell nuclei and other
>> organelles.
>
> A whole bunch of words Hartung has never heard nor read before.
>

Cyanobacteria and all bacteria showed late for the game. Life
started a lot simpler.

--
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The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Kualinar wrote:
> Adding a god does nothing but add complexity to the problem and
> don't solve anything.

Truth doesn't depend on what you deem necessary. Truth is.

--
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Max Boot wrote:
> No, your belief is irrational, because you have no evidence.
> You're arguing circularly again.

All beliefs are irrational because you can't have any logic until
you choose axioms to believe in.

--
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of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Rod Flanders wrote:
>> Let's hope he can explain what he really means by 'just happen' : )
>
> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>
> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>

You can't see natural selection. Just like you can't General
Relativity except as printed on a piece of paper. You can see
evolution without human breeding for which natural selection is
the current best theory. You're confusing facts and explanation of
facts.

--
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'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
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of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

On 3/16/2024 6:32 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
> Max Boot <max.boot@lathymes.com> wrote in
> news:B9mJN.578041$xHn7.27465@fx14.iad:
>
>> On 3/16/2024 5:50 AM, David Hartung wrote:
>>> On 3/15/24 20:58, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>> David Hartung <junk@nogood.com> wrote in
>>>> news:UySdnTsgoMGt8Gn4nZ2dnZfqnPsAAAAA@giganews.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/15/24 10:29, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>> Le 2024-03-15 à 08:38, Whisper a écrit :
>>>>>>> On 15/03/2024 7:13 am, Scout wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Whisper" <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:65f2d76f$1@news.ausics.net...
>>>>>>>>> On 14/03/2024 12:47 am, Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Le 2024-03-12 à 17:50, Skeeter a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <usqf5b$g9dd$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>>> kuakinar@videotron.ca says...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you can't prove anything else. So where did it all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just saying 'god' is not the answer.  Where did god come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where did human intelligence come from?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> An emerging property if a complex brain.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Where did the brain come from.
>>>>>>>>>> Evolution.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another
>>>>>> natural process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural
>>>>>> processes just happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just happen?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Yes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> What is you evidence for that?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Geology, botany, paleontology,
>>>> microbiology, astronomy, climatology,
>>>> archeology, cosmology.............
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://opengeology.org/historicalgeology/a-brief-history-of-earth/
>>>
>>> This is the only link which discusses the origin of life and possible
>>> evolution. Here is the first paragraph in that section:
>>> [...]
>>> Early life in the Archean and earlier is poorly documented in the
>>> fossil record. Based on chemical evidence and evolutionary theory,
>>> scientists propose this life would have been single-celled
>>> photosynthetic organisms, such as the cyanobacteria that created
>>> stromatolites. Cyanobacteria produced free oxygen in the atmosphere
>>> through photosynthesis. Cyanobacteria, archaea, and bacteria are
>>> prokaryotes—primitive organisms made of single cells that lack cell
>>> nuclei and other organelles.
>>
>> A whole bunch of words Hartung has never heard nor read before.
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> "Scientists propose". In other words, we don't yet know.
>>
>> And so you propose your "god of the gaps" fallacy to supply an answer
>> that you find comforting, but not necessarily right...and probably
>> wrong.
>>
>
>
> Hartung doesn't care if an answer is
> right or wrong, only that it is biblical.
>
> Because the Bible has never been
> disproved, you know.
>
>
>
>
> "Had anything in the Bible been disproved,
> you might have a point."
> David Hartung, Jan 10, 2012

Nothing in the bible has ever been *proved* to be true.

>
>
>
>
>> Why are you so fearful?
>

On 3/16/24 18:25, Siri Cruise wrote:
> David Hartung wrote:
>> but it does not explain how life came to be
>
> Nor do biologist propose natural selection to explain the origin.

If I were to guess, no honest scientist would do so, but knuckleheads
such as Rudy do it all the time.

Mitchell Holman wrote:
> Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote in news:ut4hi0$2vtb7$1@dont-
> email.me:
>
>> Le 2024-03-16 à 08:23, David Hartung a écrit :
>>> On 3/15/24 13:46, Siri Cruise wrote:
>>>> Kualinar wrote:
>>>>>>>> Something must have created evolution?
>>>>>>> Survival of the fittest, also known as natural selection.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but what created natural selection?
>>>>> Some say that there are no stupid questions. With your past two
>>>>> posts, you have proven that to be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Evolution is a natural process. Natural selection is another natural
>>>>> process. NOTHING created any natural process. Natural processes just
>>>>> happen.
>>>> Biological evolution is an observed over the last 10.000 years or so.
>>>> Darwin could explain variation of domesticated plants and animals by
>>>> farmers who selected breeding pairs. He observed farmer selection had
>>>> led to wide variety which also resulted in similar but distinct
> forms.
>>> Natural selection may explain how species change as conditions change,
>>> but it does not explain how life came to be, or how life "evolved"
> from
>>> simple forms to complex forms. It seems that scientists have no
> managed
>>> to create artificial RNA molecules, but that is a long way from an
>>> artificial life form. At this point the belief that there is an
>>> intelligent designer behind creation is as rational as the belief that
>>> no such designer exists.
>>>
>> The apparition of life is the domain of abiogenesis.
>> Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution.
>> As soon as life appeared, evolution started. As evolution started,
>> natural selection also started.
>> Evolution happen. Increasing complexity is a byproduct of the
>> evolutionary process.
>> Evolution DO NOT have any goal.
>> Evolution is NOT directed.
>> Evolution is dumb and blind.
>> Evolution DO NOT have a purpose.
>> Evolution just happen.
>> Evolution just make the less fit organism die out, and the more fit to
>> prosper. THAT'S what natural selection is.
>> Here, more fit mean more adapted to the conditions, NOT stronger.
>> The sloth is slow. For the sloth, being slow is an evolutionary
>> advantage : Use less resources for the locomotion.
>> The koala have a very simple brain and is very dumb. For the koala, the
>> lack of intelligence is an evolutionary advantage : Use less resources
>> for the nervous system.
>> There is no trace of design in nature, so, no need for any Â
> «intelligent
>> designer». We may attribute some quality associated with design in
>> nature, but, that don't mean that there is a design.
>>
>> Adding a designer add complexity without improving our comprehension.
>>
>
> This "designer" cannot be very intelligent,
> given that 99% of the species it created failed
> went extinct.

It must also be a creature that takes delight in human suffering

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"Religion is an evil who's goal is mind control"

Mitchell Holman wrote:
> This "designer" cannot be very intelligent,
> given that 99% of the species it created failed
> went extinct.

That's your arrogance again. Unless you know what a supposed
designer was designing you are in no position to evaluate the
design. Does a puppy dog criticise carpentry?

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
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The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Maximus wrote:
>>
>>      This "designer" cannot be very intelligent,
>> given that 99% of the species it created failed
>> went extinct.
>
> It must also be a creature that takes delight in human suffering
>
>

See also the Book of Job. The bible oft repeats to fear god. That
doesn't change whether there is god. The Truth is what it is
whether you approve or no.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed