On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>> look parsimonious to me.
>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>
> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
Is this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
don't have to. Why would anyone try to breed some that could? Why not
a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
prehensile noses? After all, they work well for elephants. I don't see
any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
cooperate.

On 2/1/24 9:35 AM, erik simpson wrote:
> On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video
>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on
>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in
>>>>>>>>>> the thread
>>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at
>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi
>>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like
>>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated
>>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
>>>>>>>>>> membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi
>>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the
>>>>>>>>>> wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is
>>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in
>>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings
>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of
>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer,
>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown
>>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail
>>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify
>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is
>>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger
>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
>>>>>>>> membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
>>>>>>>> calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered
>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
>>>>>>>> connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
>>>>>>>> membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the
>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
>>>>>>>> article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite
>>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice
>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present
>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats,
>>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.
>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,
>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
>>>>>> boggles the mind.
>>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
>>>>> forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be
>>>>> selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
>>>>> favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
>>>>> alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
>>>>> monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths
>>>> and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
>>>> something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>>> look parsimonious to me.
>>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
>>> sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
>>> that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
>>> functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
>>> hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
>>> have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
>>> Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>>
>> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
>> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
>> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
>> pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
>> could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
> Is this a joke?  Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
> don't have to.  Why would anyone try to breed some that could?  Why not
> a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
> prehensile noses?  After all, they work well for elephants.  I don't see
> any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
> cooperate.

On 2/1/24 10:28 AM, John Harshman wrote:
> On 2/1/24 9:35 AM, erik simpson wrote:
>> On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>>> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video
>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in
>>>>>>>>>>> the thread
>>>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at
>>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015:
>>>>>>>>>>> *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal.
>>>>>>>>>>> Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual,
>>>>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to
>>>>>>>>>>> support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes
>>>>>>>>>>> of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached
>>>>>>>>>>> to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based
>>>>>>>>>>> plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have
>>>>>>>>>>> resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings
>>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of
>>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer,
>>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was
>>>>>>>>> shown in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like
>>>>>>>>> tail and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify
>>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi
>>>>>>>>> is a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
>>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger
>>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
>>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
>>>>>>>>> membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
>>>>>>>>> calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered
>>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
>>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
>>>>>>>>> connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
>>>>>>>>> membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
>>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
>>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the
>>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
>>>>>>>>> article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
>>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are
>>>>>>>>> quite close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice
>>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
>>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present
>>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in
>>>>>>>>> bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
>>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
>>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,
>>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
>>>>>>> boggles the mind.
>>>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
>>>>>> forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might
>>>>>> be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
>>>>>> favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
>>>>>> alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
>>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
>>>>>> monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different
>>>>> paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
>>>>> something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>>>> look parsimonious to me.
>>>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
>>>> sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
>>>> that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
>>>> functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
>>>> hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
>>>> have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
>>>> Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>>>
>>> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
>>> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
>>> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
>>> pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
>>> could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
>> Is this a joke?  Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
>> don't have to.  Why would anyone try to breed some that could?  Why
>> not a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
>> prehensile noses?  After all, they work well for elephants.  I don't
>> see any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who
>> would cooperate.
>
> You might be able to interest hereditary priests of Ganesh.
I hadn't thought of that - I'll log in to GoFundMe right away.

On 2/1/24 12:35, erik simpson wrote:
> On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,

Why answer a 2 year old thread.

>>>>>>>>>> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video
>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on
>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in
>>>>>>>>>> the thread
>>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at
>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi
>>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like
>>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated
>>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
>>>>>>>>>> membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi
>>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the
>>>>>>>>>> wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is
>>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in
>>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings
>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of
>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer,
>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown
>>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail
>>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify
>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is
>>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger
>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
>>>>>>>> membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
>>>>>>>> calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered
>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
>>>>>>>> connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
>>>>>>>> membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the
>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
>>>>>>>> article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite
>>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice
>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present
>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats,
>>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.
>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,
>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
>>>>>> boggles the mind.
>>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
>>>>> forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be
>>>>> selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
>>>>> favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
>>>>> alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
>>>>> monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths
>>>> and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
>>>> something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>>> look parsimonious to me.
>>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
>>> sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
>>> that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
>>> functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
>>> hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
>>> have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
>>> Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>>
>> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
>> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
>> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
>> pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
>> could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
> Is this a joke?  Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
> don't have to.  Why would anyone try to breed some that could?  Why not
> a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
> prehensile noses?  After all, they work well for elephants.  I don't see
> any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
> cooperate.

On 2/14/24 2:06 PM, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 8:47:52 AM UTC-5, Popping Mad wrote:
>> On 2/1/24 12:35, erik simpson wrote:
>>> On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
>> Why answer a 2 year old thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the thread
>>>>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
>>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at
>>>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi
>>>>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like
>>>>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated
>>>>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
>>>>>>>>>>>> membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi
>>>>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is
>>>>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in
>>>>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings
>>>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of
>>>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer,
>>>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown
>>>>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail
>>>>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify
>>>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is
>>>>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
>>>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger
>>>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
>>>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
>>>>>>>>>> membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
>>>>>>>>>> calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered
>>>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
>>>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
>>>>>>>>>> connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
>>>>>>>>>> membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
>>>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
>>>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the
>>>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
>>>>>>>>>> article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
>>>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite
>>>>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice
>>>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
>>>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present
>>>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats,
>>>>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
>>>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
>>>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,
>>>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
>>>>>>>> boggles the mind.
>>>>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
>>>>>>> forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be
>>>>>>> selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
>>>>>>> favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
>>>>>>> alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
>>>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
>>>>>>> monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths
>>>>>> and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>>>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
>>>>>> something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>>>>> look parsimonious to me.
>>>>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
>>>>> sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
>>>>> that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
>>>>> functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
>>>>> hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
>>>>> have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
>>>>> Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>>>>
>>>> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
>>>> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
>>>> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
>>>> pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
>>>> could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
>>> Is this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
>>> don't have to. Why would anyone try to breed some that could? Why not
>>> a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
>>> prehensile noses? After all, they work well for elephants. I don't see
>>> any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
>>> cooperate.
>
> Monkey & parrot symbiosis
> https://x.com/AMAZlNGNATURE/status/1757814956722889141?s=20
That's definitely a cute video, but I doubt the macaw will teach the
monkey how to fly.

On 2/14/24 17:43, erik simpson wrote:
> That's definitely a cute video, but I doubt the macaw will teach the
> monkey how to fly.

They share 92% of their DNA ...

You should see Wicked.