I recently posted a picture of a successful very high hold milling
operation in a grinder vise on one of those machinist groups. It was a
no-name import I am sure. I got a little respect and a little
reasonable fear, but more than plenty who were adamant that it was 112%
stupid and those vises have no holding force and are worthless on
anything but a grinder. "You should get an Orange Vise," or "GASP!!!!!!
Its not a Kurt," were common refrains. I explained how I had already
done horsepower calculations for the operations, and the etched in...
well... aluminum and steel FACT that I run that high hold every single
day on almost every part I make. That I have four machines with five
similar vises setup with machined in place ledges for a high hold and I
run them that way every day and have for years. Mostly I cut aluminum,
but I have cut brass, 4140HT, and 304 stainless this way. "Its not a
KURT!!!" "You should get an Orange!!!"

Okay, here is the real reason. I don't work on a half million dollar
VMC owned by my boss and his bank in somebody else's shop. Every
machine I have I paid for and I own them. This means I have small
machines. A Kurt or an Orange is 40% physically larger than a similar
grip range screwless grinder vise. I don't have working envelope to
throw away with my dollars.

"AN ORANGE IS NOT 40% LARGER FOR ITS GRIP RANGE!!!!!"

Really? It doesn't have a fixed jaw that is several times longer than
the fixed jaw on a grinder vise? It isn't several times longer than it
is deep? ... or does it phase shift through 9 dimensions so it CAN
occupy the same space at the same time as the column when you shift it
back far enough to actually use the work envelope of a small machine?
The moving jaw is not also much longer than the moving jaw on a grinder
vise not only making the jaw space a lot bigger, but also requiring
longer sliding surface to run out on to open?

I haven't seen every type mill vise there is, but I think have around
ten of them from 4 inches to 8 inches and every single one of them is
like this. How is an Orange vise smaller than all of them?

The only real space saving feature I have seen on a lock down mill vise
is a recessed heck socket drive instead of an exposed bolt head style
drive. It was still bigger than a comparable size grinder vise. In
fact I can drop a 6 inch grinder vise in less space than a 4 inch mill
vise and close the doors on my smallest machine. I actually tried a 4
inch mill vise (with no cast mounting flanges) set as far back as it
would go without crashing into the column. The doors wouldn't close.

Then there is this. Maybe a grinder vise won't clamp down as hard as a
mill vise, but with no special tuning of a premium high end over priced
brand it also has virtually zero jaw lift. This means the jaws remain
perpendicular to is own flat sliding surfaces and hold flatter on the
stock.

I must be inferior for not using my boss's Orange vise on my boss's half
million dollar financed VMC, in my boss's financed or rented shop.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

So I wonder how much chemical waste is still being dumped int he ocean
from the off shore manufacture of solar panels.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:u773vf$5ag3$1@dont-email.me...
....
Bob La Londe
....Not a real machinist

----------------------------

You can figure out how to get the job done. To me that defines a Real
Machinist.

On 6/24/2023 10:08 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:u773vf$5ag3$1@dont-email.me...
> ...
> Bob La Londe
> ...Not a real machinist
>
> ----------------------------
>
> You can figure out how to get the job done. To me that defines a Real
> Machinist.
>

Oh, I am not a "real" machinist. I'm a maker, builder, and shade tree
mechanic, except where I grew I didn't have a shade tree. Instead I had
a rusty A frame made out of old well casing and scrap metal. Where
"real" shade tree mechanics had to throw a cover on the carb to keep out
leaves I had to stuff an old sock in it to keep out sand.

And, yes I know proffessional is misspelled. It was an accident at
first, but now its on purpose.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 6/26/2023 12:44 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 6/24/2023 10:08 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:u773vf$5ag3$1@dont-email.me...
>> ...
>> Bob La Londe
>> ...Not a real machinist
>>
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> You can figure out how to get the job done. To me that defines a Real
>> Machinist.
>>
>
> Oh, I am not a "real" machinist.  I'm a maker, builder, and shade tree
> mechanic, except where I grew I didn't have a shade tree.  Instead I had
> a rusty A frame made out of old well casing and scrap metal.  Where
> "real" shade tree mechanics had to throw a cover on the carb to keep out
> leaves I had to stuff an old sock in it to keep out sand.
>
> And, yes I know proffessional is misspelled.  It was an accident at
> first, but now its on purpose.
>
>

And it irritates the livin' shit out of some people . That's why I
always put a space before punctuation .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:u7ciqd$11415$1@dont-email.me...

On 6/24/2023 10:08 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:u773vf$5ag3$1@dont-email.me...
> ...
> Bob La Londe
> ...Not a real machinist
>
> ----------------------------
>
> You can figure out how to get the job done. To me that defines a Real
> Machinist.
>

Oh, I am not a "real" machinist. I'm a maker, builder, and shade tree
mechanic, except where I grew I didn't have a shade tree. Instead I had
a rusty A frame made out of old well casing and scrap metal. Where
"real" shade tree mechanics had to throw a cover on the carb to keep out
leaves I had to stuff an old sock in it to keep out sand.

And, yes I know proffessional is misspelled. It was an accident at
first, but now its on purpose.

Bob La Londe

-------------------
I was lucky enough to have a nice shade tree, behind the garage and out of
sight, and a big flat-ish rock for a workbench, plus permission to use the
table saw from age 8 so I wouldn't be pestering Dad. He did a lot of
remodeling so I had plenty of scrap lumber and pipe, and bricks for the
forge. I was in heaven, building stuff that mostly headed that way.

I may have provoked UFO sightings by launching ultra-light parachutes on
thermals. From below they were clear and barely visible, viewed from a low
angle they reflected the sky and clouds and appeared silvery. I was in
college pulling other pranks during the 1965 Exeter NH incident but I
immediately recognized its description as a tissue paper hot air balloon,
made from a pattern in Boy's Life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_incident

People can't judge the size of or distance to an unknown object in the sky
and ground-level wind is very erratic around trees and buildings. Helium
balloons behave differently because they quickly rise above the turbulence.
I would have lit it with tiny flashing Christmas bulbs powered by cells
removed from a 9V battery to save weight. Road flare powder would make the
lifting flame bright red.

I didn't have credentials for most of what I did, from designer and project
manager for industrial test equipment to building digital radios for the
USAF and FAA. In fact I took a ham license course to learn how radios
worked. I picked up analog and digital circuit design in the Army,
on-the-job and in night school, and had to apply as a tech and prove I could
do much more at each new job. I got into Segway by showing them a bag of
small parts and tools I had machined at home. R&D jobs (and companies)
usually aren't permanent.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/tech/segway-pt-shut-down/index.html
As soon as development ended some of the tech staff quit and moved west,
they said to develop autonomous electric vehicles or something.
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/people/doug-field.html
"He was the first employee and vice president, Design and Engineering, at
Segway."
He moves around too.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:u773vf$5ag3$1@dont-email.me...

I recently posted a picture of a successful very high hold milling
operation in a grinder vise on one of those machinist groups. It was a
no-name import I am sure. I got a little respect and a little
reasonable fear, but more than plenty who were adamant that it was 112%
stupid and those vises have no holding force and are worthless on
anything but a grinder. "You should get an Orange Vise," or "GASP!!!!!!
Its not a Kurt," were common refrains...

----------------------

There were high and low status brands in electronic test equipment too,
Tektronix was "it" for oscilloscopes and HP or Fluke for most everything
else. Keithley was ultra high status but almost too specialized and vastly
overpriced. That lasted into the 90's and then suddenly fell apart, as much
from disappointing performance in new products from the big guys as
increasingly capable competition. I suspect the older generation retired or
was forced out and wasn't properly replaced. I had a $20,000 oscilloscope at
work and a $200 one at home.

The $20,000 scope ran Windows and was connected to the Net, though few knew
that, so as a sight gag I'd leave it hooked up to some simple circuit with
live NWS radar weather displaying on the screen.

Once my South Bend lathe was high status and it's still somewhat collectible
as "vintage" but its 1920's design is hopelessly obsolete for a money making
job shop. Still, a '65 SB is more use to me than a '65 Mustang would be.

On 6/26/2023 1:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:u7ciqd$11415$1@dont-email.me...
>
> On 6/24/2023 10:08 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:u773vf$5ag3$1@dont-email.me...
>> ...
>> Bob La Londe
>> ...Not a real machinist
>>
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> You can figure out how to get the job done. To me that defines a Real
>> Machinist.
>>
>
> Oh, I am not a "real" machinist.  I'm a maker, builder, and shade tree
> mechanic, except where I grew I didn't have a shade tree.  Instead I had
> a rusty A frame made out of old well casing and scrap metal.  Where
> "real" shade tree mechanics had to throw a cover on the carb to keep out
> leaves I had to stuff an old sock in it to keep out sand.
>
> And, yes I know proffessional is misspelled.  It was an accident at
> first, but now its on purpose.
>
> Bob La Londe
>
> -------------------
> I was lucky enough to have a nice shade tree, behind the garage and out
> of sight, and a big flat-ish rock for a workbench, plus permission to
> use the table saw from age 8 so I wouldn't be pestering Dad. He did a
> lot of remodeling so I had plenty of scrap lumber and pipe, and bricks
> for the forge. I was in heaven, building stuff that mostly headed that way.
>
> I may have provoked UFO sightings by launching ultra-light parachutes on
> thermals. From below they were clear and barely visible, viewed from a
> low angle they reflected the sky and clouds and appeared silvery. I was
> in college pulling other pranks during the 1965 Exeter NH incident but I
> immediately recognized its description as a tissue paper hot air
> balloon, made from a pattern in Boy's Life.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_incident
>
> People can't judge the size of or distance to an unknown object in the
> sky and ground-level wind is very erratic around trees and buildings.
> Helium balloons behave differently because they quickly rise above the
> turbulence. I would have lit it with tiny flashing Christmas bulbs
> powered by cells removed from a 9V battery to save weight. Road flare
> powder would make the lifting flame bright red.
>
> I didn't have credentials for most of what I did, from designer and
> project manager for industrial test equipment to building digital radios
> for the USAF and FAA. In fact I took a ham license course to learn how
> radios worked. I picked up analog and digital circuit design in the
> Army, on-the-job and in night school, and had to apply as a tech and
> prove I could do much more at each new job. I got into Segway by showing
> them a bag of small parts and tools I had machined at home. R&D jobs
> (and companies) usually aren't permanent.
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/tech/segway-pt-shut-down/index.html
> As soon as development ended some of the tech staff quit and moved west,
> they said to develop autonomous electric vehicles or something.
> https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/people/doug-field.html
> "He was the first employee and vice president, Design and Engineering,
> at Segway."
> He moves around too.
>

Except for having a couple contractor's licenses (expired) for 23 years
and a couple self taught certifications so I could buy particular brands
of product I have no certification for any skill I have. 117 college
credits (and a good GPA) and no degree either. Not even an AAS. My son
made up for it though. He just did his first college graduation and got
three (2 AAs and an AAS) degrees and a certificate in something. He
also got his pharmacy tech license which is how he's surviving through
college. He wants a BA in engineering specializing in "material science"
eventually. I guess that means lots more physics and chemistry for him.

I once had a boss tell me I should lie my way into something good, and
then learn how to do it. That's just not me.

There were hard times. At one point I applied for a job washing dishes
and the restaurant told me they wouldn't hire me because I was going to
school and they wanted me to be on demand when THEY needed me. Another
time I applied for a job with county government doing menial computer
service work, doing data backups, etc. I made the mistake of listing my
computer experience and education in computers a little to thoroughly in
my information. I mentioned one (JUST ONE) class in systems analysis
and design. The interviewer said he wasn't going to hire me because he
wanted me to apply for a job in a couple months as a systems analyst. A
job I was clearly not qualified for. I didn't need a job in a couple
months so I wound up tutoring part time at college and terminating
telephone cable for a communication contractor part time. I don't know
if that analyst job ever came open. I never looked for it.

I even got into contracting kind of by mistake. A former employer
didn't pay me for all the contracting jobs I had sold for them, and one
of them contacted me through a mutual friend. I was doing computer
service and minor upgrades on legacy systems at the time. *** The
customer told me the former employer totally changed the job from what
they wanted and and tried to get them to sign a new contract. Obviously
to cover their asses if I sued for unpaid commissions. They asked me if
I would do the job myself the way they actually wanted it. I borrowed
some money from my girlfriend (now my wife of 29 years) and a contractor
was born.

*** At the time I was doing computer service for all the guys who had
older systems the computer stores didn't want to work on. They just
wanted to sell them a new 386. Some kid couldn't afford a couple grand
for a new 386, but he could afford 50 bucks for a second hard drive or
an RLL (or MFM -A) card to increase the capacity of their drive. A
buddy of mine who had a computer store sold me all his old PC/XT cards
for pennies on the dollar. I could drop a card that literally cost me a
dollar into somebody's old XT, almost double their drive storage and
make $49 for my labor. For an extra $10 (drives were small back then)
I'd use a home made parallel laplink cable to copy all their files onto
one of my drives, and restore them after the upgrade making sure their
machine booted and files were verified before it left my living room.
Evenings and weekends I delivered pizza.

Back then the Computer Shopper was a real resource instead of a joke. I
started buying second generation new AT parts that were being closed out
as new stuff came on the market. I had a small but decent group of
customers who were always looking for a deal on a small upgrade. I'd
post XX meg SIMMs limited availability on a local bulletin board, and I
have a half dozen calls before the end of the day to see if I had any
left. During that time I used a cobbled together 8088 with a 5meg MFM
drive running at 9meg with an MFM-A card to access bulletin boards.

Had one kid back then get really mad at me. He brought me a PC (a real
PC) for a second drive. I opened it up and discovered it was an 8086
with the old board that has no dip switches to set for a second drive.
I could mechanically install the drive, but the machine wouldn't address
it. I told him I could drop a bigger drive in it or install a card to
increase the size of his existing drive and copy his data, but he just
called me a liar and a crook and brought his dad to come get his
computer back. A year or two later he ran into me and acted all
friendly like we should be buddies because we knew who each other was. ****

**** Had the same thing happen years later with a one day employee. I
got tired of him just not doing the basic things I told him to do. We
went out side to talk about it, and he put up his fists and asked if I
wanted to fight. I just told him to get in the truck. I took him to
the office, wrote him a check, walked him out to his vehicle and said,
"Now to be clear you are no longer my employee and you are trespassed
from this property. If you want to fight take a swing at me now."
Years later I ran into him in K-Mart and he did the same thing. Acted
all friendly and acted like we should be buddies because we recognized
each other. Morons. The both of them.

That's probably way to much of nothing anybody wants to read. I still
feel today like I am fighting to survive sometimes.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 6/27/2023 12:02 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 6/26/2023 1:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:u7ciqd$11415$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> On 6/24/2023 10:08 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:u773vf$5ag3$1@dont-email.me...
>>> ...
>>> Bob La Londe
>>> ...Not a real machinist
>>>
>>> ----------------------------
>>>
>>> You can figure out how to get the job done. To me that defines a Real
>>> Machinist.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, I am not a "real" machinist.  I'm a maker, builder, and shade tree
>> mechanic, except where I grew I didn't have a shade tree.  Instead I had
>> a rusty A frame made out of old well casing and scrap metal.  Where
>> "real" shade tree mechanics had to throw a cover on the carb to keep out
>> leaves I had to stuff an old sock in it to keep out sand.
>>
>> And, yes I know proffessional is misspelled.  It was an accident at
>> first, but now its on purpose.
>>
>> Bob La Londe
>>
>> -------------------
>> I was lucky enough to have a nice shade tree, behind the garage and
>> out of sight, and a big flat-ish rock for a workbench, plus permission
>> to use the table saw from age 8 so I wouldn't be pestering Dad. He did
>> a lot of remodeling so I had plenty of scrap lumber and pipe, and
>> bricks for the forge. I was in heaven, building stuff that mostly
>> headed that way.
>>
>> I may have provoked UFO sightings by launching ultra-light parachutes
>> on thermals. From below they were clear and barely visible, viewed
>> from a low angle they reflected the sky and clouds and appeared
>> silvery. I was in college pulling other pranks during the 1965 Exeter
>> NH incident but I immediately recognized its description as a tissue
>> paper hot air balloon, made from a pattern in Boy's Life.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_incident
>>
>> People can't judge the size of or distance to an unknown object in the
>> sky and ground-level wind is very erratic around trees and buildings.
>> Helium balloons behave differently because they quickly rise above the
>> turbulence. I would have lit it with tiny flashing Christmas bulbs
>> powered by cells removed from a 9V battery to save weight. Road flare
>> powder would make the lifting flame bright red.
>>
>> I didn't have credentials for most of what I did, from designer and
>> project manager for industrial test equipment to building digital
>> radios for the USAF and FAA. In fact I took a ham license course to
>> learn how radios worked. I picked up analog and digital circuit design
>> in the Army, on-the-job and in night school, and had to apply as a
>> tech and prove I could do much more at each new job. I got into Segway
>> by showing them a bag of small parts and tools I had machined at home.
>> R&D jobs (and companies) usually aren't permanent.
>>
>> https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/tech/segway-pt-shut-down/index.html
>> As soon as development ended some of the tech staff quit and moved
>> west, they said to develop autonomous electric vehicles or something.
>> https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/people/doug-field.html
>> "He was the first employee and vice president, Design and Engineering,
>> at Segway."
>> He moves around too.
>>
>
>
> Except for having a couple contractor's licenses (expired) for 23 years
> and a couple self taught certifications so I could buy particular brands
> of product I have no certification for any skill I have.  117 college
> credits (and a good GPA) and no degree either.  Not even an AAS.  My son
> made up for it though.  He just did his first college graduation and got
> three (2 AAs and an AAS) degrees and a certificate in something.  He
> also got his pharmacy tech license which is how he's surviving through
> college. He wants a BA in engineering specializing in "material science"
> eventually.  I guess that means lots more physics and chemistry for him.
>
> I once had a boss tell me I should lie my way into something good, and
> then learn how to do it.  That's just not me.
>
> There were hard times.  At one point I applied for a job washing dishes
> and the restaurant told me they wouldn't hire me because I was going to
> school and they wanted me to be on demand when THEY needed me.  Another
> time I applied for a job with county government doing menial computer
> service work, doing data backups, etc.  I made the mistake of listing my
> computer experience and education in computers a little to thoroughly in
> my information.  I mentioned one (JUST ONE) class in systems analysis
> and design.  The interviewer said he wasn't going to hire me because he
> wanted me to apply for a job in a couple months as a systems analyst.  A
> job I was clearly not qualified for. I didn't need a job in a couple
> months so I wound up tutoring part time at college and terminating
> telephone cable for a communication contractor part time. I don't know
> if that analyst job ever came open.  I never looked for it.
>
> I even got into contracting kind of by mistake.  A former employer
> didn't pay me for all the contracting jobs I had sold for them, and one
> of them contacted me through a mutual friend.  I was doing computer
> service and minor upgrades on legacy systems at the time.  ***  The
> customer told me the former employer totally changed the job from what
> they wanted and and tried to get them to sign a new contract.  Obviously
> to cover their asses if I sued for unpaid commissions.  They asked me if
> I would do the job myself the way they actually wanted it.  I borrowed
> some money from my girlfriend (now my wife of 29 years) and a contractor
> was born.
>
> *** At the time I was doing computer service for all the guys who had
> older systems the computer stores didn't want to work on.  They just
> wanted to sell them a new 386.  Some kid couldn't afford a couple grand
> for a new 386, but he could afford 50 bucks for a second hard drive or
> an RLL (or MFM -A) card to increase the capacity of their drive.  A
> buddy of mine who had a computer store sold me all his old PC/XT cards
> for pennies on the dollar.  I could drop a card that literally cost me a
> dollar into somebody's old XT, almost double their drive storage and
> make $49 for my labor.  For an extra $10  (drives were small back then)
> I'd use a home made parallel laplink cable to copy all their files onto
> one of my drives, and restore them after the upgrade making sure their
> machine booted and files were verified before it left my living room.
> Evenings and weekends I delivered pizza.
>
> Back then the Computer Shopper was a real resource instead of a joke. I
> started buying second generation new AT parts that were being closed out
> as new stuff came on the market.  I had a small but decent group of
> customers who were always looking for a deal on a small upgrade.  I'd
> post XX meg SIMMs limited availability on a local bulletin board, and I
> have a half dozen calls before the end of the day to see if I had any
> left.  During that time I used a cobbled together 8088 with a 5meg MFM
> drive running at 9meg with an MFM-A card to access bulletin boards.
>
> Had one kid back then get really mad at me.  He brought me a PC (a real
> PC) for a second drive.  I opened it up and discovered it was an 8086
> with the old board that has no dip switches to set for a second drive. I
> could mechanically install the drive, but the machine wouldn't address
> it.  I told him I could drop a bigger drive in it or install a card to
> increase the size of his existing drive and copy his data, but he just
> called me a liar and a crook and brought his dad to come get his
> computer back.  A year or two later he ran into me and acted all
> friendly like we should be buddies because we knew who each other was.
> ****
>
> **** Had the same thing happen years later with a one day employee. I
> got tired of him just not doing the basic things I told him to do.  We
> went out side to talk about it, and he put up his fists and asked if I
> wanted to fight.  I just told him to get in the truck.  I took him to
> the office, wrote him a check, walked him out to his vehicle and said,
> "Now to be clear you are no longer my employee and you are trespassed
> from this property.  If you want to fight take a swing at me now." Years
> later I ran into him in K-Mart and he did the same thing.  Acted all
> friendly and acted like we should be buddies because we recognized each
> other.  Morons.  The both of them.
>
> That's probably way to much of nothing anybody wants to read.  I still
> feel today like I am fighting to survive sometimes.
>
>

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:u7fbog$1ficj$1@dont-email.me...

On 6/26/2023 1:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> ...

Except for having a couple contractor's licenses (expired) for 23 years
and a couple self taught certifications so I could buy particular brands
of product I have no certification for any skill I have. 117 college
credits (and a good GPA) and no degree either. Not even an AAS. My son
made up for it though. He just did his first college graduation and got
three (2 AAs and an AAS) degrees and a certificate in something. He
also got his pharmacy tech license which is how he's surviving through
college. He wants a BA in engineering specializing in "material science"
eventually. I guess that means lots more physics and chemistry for him.

I once had a boss tell me I should lie my way into something good, and
then learn how to do it. That's just not me.

There were hard times. At one point I applied for a job washing dishes
and the restaurant told me they wouldn't hire me because I was going to
school and they wanted me to be on demand when THEY needed me. Another
time I applied for a job with county government doing menial computer
service work, doing data backups, etc. I made the mistake of listing my
computer experience and education in computers a little to thoroughly in
my information. I mentioned one (JUST ONE) class in systems analysis
and design. The interviewer said he wasn't going to hire me because he
wanted me to apply for a job in a couple months as a systems analyst. A
job I was clearly not qualified for. I didn't need a job in a couple
months so I wound up tutoring part time at college and terminating
telephone cable for a communication contractor part time. I don't know
if that analyst job ever came open. I never looked for it.

I even got into contracting kind of by mistake. A former employer
didn't pay me for all the contracting jobs I had sold for them, and one
of them contacted me through a mutual friend. I was doing computer
service and minor upgrades on legacy systems at the time. *** The
customer told me the former employer totally changed the job from what
they wanted and and tried to get them to sign a new contract. Obviously
to cover their asses if I sued for unpaid commissions. They asked me if
I would do the job myself the way they actually wanted it. I borrowed
some money from my girlfriend (now my wife of 29 years) and a contractor
was born.
....
That's probably way to much of nothing anybody wants to read. I still
feel today like I am fighting to survive sometimes.

Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

-------------------

You were fighting and you were winning, unlike a lot of independent-minded
but less capable people I've met, even in Mensa. Flea market sellers have
told me some of the best stories of failed careers in high tech up to the
NASA level.

I'm not a businessman and know I need an employer buffering me from the
public. I also know to back away from a project when asked to design
something that could fail dangerously. We were warned in college that
inexperienced new employees may be sacrificed that way. It comes back when
reading about the carbon fiber sub hull.

I read an article in which James Cameron and naval architects discussed how
Titanic's hull might have fractured, in tension at the deck or by buckling
at the keel, the upper and lower strength elements of the hull girder. The
wreckage shows possible evidence of both. He knows his engineering. The
movie shows an oversimplified version of the fracture that could be
repeatedly reassembled and filmed again. He wrote that he sank that ship 20
times, after which it had deteriorated too much to save.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:u7fcan$1ficj$2@dont-email.me...

If I get tired of fighting you know what all of that ability gets me if
I want to just give up and work a 9-5 for somebody else? Nothing. I'm
over qualified to be a WalMart greeter and I don't have disposition for it.

---------------------

In R&D the hours could be 8AM until midnight. When I was hacking up office
computers to do something never intended such as Hot Swap no one bothered me
lest I try to explain it to them. The problem with R&D is finding a new job
after the current one is finished. I'd cut firewood and fix things in the
interim, then sign on somewhere as a lab tech and work my way up again. You
can't just ask if they have any secret projects.

Did you write the program for parallel port Laplink? When Power over
Ethernet was being developed I wrote a program to communicate with the PoE
controller IC from an LPT port reconfigured as serial I2C, so an unmodified
lab computer could talk to the application board.

On 6/27/2023 1:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:u7fcan$1ficj$2@dont-email.me...
>
> If I get tired of fighting you know what all of that ability gets me if
> I want to just give up and work a 9-5 for somebody else?  Nothing.  I'm
> over qualified to be a WalMart greeter and I don't have disposition for it.
>
> ---------------------
>
> In R&D the hours could be 8AM until midnight. When I was hacking up
> office computers to do something never intended such as Hot Swap no one
> bothered me lest I try to explain it to them. The problem with R&D is
> finding a new job after the current one is finished. I'd cut firewood
> and fix things in the interim, then sign on somewhere as a lab tech and
> work my way up again. You can't just ask if they have any secret projects.
>
> Did you write the program for parallel port Laplink?

No. Laplink was a commercial program. At the time most people were
happy to use a null modem adapter and transfer data at at 115K using
RS232. It was still easier than sneaker net. You could buy a null
modem at Radio Shack. A few of us got together one day and looked up
the pin to pin settings for a crossover parallel cable as I soldered up
connector after connector using one buddies 15 watt (I think that's what
he said) iron and another buddies plastic vise. I can do it with a
hotter iron, but it takes a delicate touch. Parallel transfer was
roughly 4 times faster than RS232.

I accepted a propane weed burner from a friend the other day to assist
with the type of soldering I am more likely to do in the near future.
Just get the whole damn thing hot!!!

When Power over
> Ethernet was being developed I wrote a program to communicate with the
> PoE controller IC from an LPT port reconfigured as serial I2C, so an
> unmodified lab computer could talk to the application board.
>

Nice.

I haven't written any code in a very very long time. I think the last
thing I wrote (g-code doesn't count) was a "screen saver" and boot
program for PCDOS 7.0 for an old AMD 486 I was using to remote program
alarm panels over dial up. I think I compiled it in Quick Basic 4.5.
Rather than replace the defunct battery it just booted into a screen
that demanded you set the date and time blinking randomly around the
screen. I wrote that program in the mid or late 90s. I actually was
still using that computer once in a while for that purpose until I
closed the contracting company on December 31st 2016. I gave it to the
company that bought my contracts. I didn't give them any of my modems.
I sent those all to a friend in the alarm business who just announced
his retirement a few weeks ago. Need some old Hayes 1200 modems? The
special ones with 10 dip switches instead of 8. How about a couple
Cardinal 2400s, a proprietary DSC MD12, a proprietary SK, or a Sporsters
14.4. I bet he would sell them all cheap plus whatever modems he
already had. LOL.

I still used those for some panels, but a lot with cellular
communicators were programmed over the internet the last few years.
That was so nice and so fast. Blip, send, done.

It was great for retrieving internal system logs too when customers
would lie to me.

"Your alarm panel goes off every day for no reason."

"No YOUR panel goes is triggered every day at 7:00PM when the cleaning
crew goes in the side door instead of the front or back door like they
are supposed to."

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 6/27/2023 2:02 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 6/26/2023 1:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:u7ciqd$11415$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> On 6/24/2023 10:08 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:u773vf$5ag3$1@dont-email.me...
>>> ...
>>> Bob La Londe
>>> ...Not a real machinist
>>>
>>> ----------------------------
>>>
>>> You can figure out how to get the job done. To me that defines a Real
>>> Machinist.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, I am not a "real" machinist.  I'm a maker, builder, and shade tree
>> mechanic, except where I grew I didn't have a shade tree.  Instead I had
>> a rusty A frame made out of old well casing and scrap metal.  Where
>> "real" shade tree mechanics had to throw a cover on the carb to keep out
>> leaves I had to stuff an old sock in it to keep out sand.
>>
>> And, yes I know proffessional is misspelled.  It was an accident at
>> first, but now its on purpose.
>>
>> Bob La Londe
>>
>> -------------------
>> I was lucky enough to have a nice shade tree, behind the garage and
>> out of sight, and a big flat-ish rock for a workbench, plus permission
>> to use the table saw from age 8 so I wouldn't be pestering Dad. He did
>> a lot of remodeling so I had plenty of scrap lumber and pipe, and
>> bricks for the forge. I was in heaven, building stuff that mostly
>> headed that way.
>>
>> I may have provoked UFO sightings by launching ultra-light parachutes
>> on thermals. From below they were clear and barely visible, viewed
>> from a low angle they reflected the sky and clouds and appeared
>> silvery. I was in college pulling other pranks during the 1965 Exeter
>> NH incident but I immediately recognized its description as a tissue
>> paper hot air balloon, made from a pattern in Boy's Life.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_incident
>>
>> People can't judge the size of or distance to an unknown object in the
>> sky and ground-level wind is very erratic around trees and buildings.
>> Helium balloons behave differently because they quickly rise above the
>> turbulence. I would have lit it with tiny flashing Christmas bulbs
>> powered by cells removed from a 9V battery to save weight. Road flare
>> powder would make the lifting flame bright red.
>>
>> I didn't have credentials for most of what I did, from designer and
>> project manager for industrial test equipment to building digital
>> radios for the USAF and FAA. In fact I took a ham license course to
>> learn how radios worked. I picked up analog and digital circuit design
>> in the Army, on-the-job and in night school, and had to apply as a
>> tech and prove I could do much more at each new job. I got into Segway
>> by showing them a bag of small parts and tools I had machined at home.
>> R&D jobs (and companies) usually aren't permanent.
>>
>> https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/tech/segway-pt-shut-down/index.html
>> As soon as development ended some of the tech staff quit and moved
>> west, they said to develop autonomous electric vehicles or something.
>> https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/people/doug-field.html
>> "He was the first employee and vice president, Design and Engineering,
>> at Segway."
>> He moves around too.
>>
>
>
> Except for having a couple contractor's licenses (expired) for 23 years
> and a couple self taught certifications so I could buy particular brands
> of product I have no certification for any skill I have.  117 college
> credits (and a good GPA) and no degree either.  Not even an AAS.  My son
> made up for it though.  He just did his first college graduation and got
> three (2 AAs and an AAS) degrees and a certificate in something.  He
> also got his pharmacy tech license which is how he's surviving through
> college. He wants a BA in engineering specializing in "material science"
> eventually.  I guess that means lots more physics and chemistry for him.
>
> I once had a boss tell me I should lie my way into something good, and
> then learn how to do it.  That's just not me.
>
> There were hard times.  At one point I applied for a job washing dishes
> and the restaurant told me they wouldn't hire me because I was going to
> school and they wanted me to be on demand when THEY needed me.  Another
> time I applied for a job with county government doing menial computer
> service work, doing data backups, etc.  I made the mistake of listing my
> computer experience and education in computers a little to thoroughly in
> my information.  I mentioned one (JUST ONE) class in systems analysis
> and design.  The interviewer said he wasn't going to hire me because he
> wanted me to apply for a job in a couple months as a systems analyst.  A
> job I was clearly not qualified for. I didn't need a job in a couple
> months so I wound up tutoring part time at college and terminating
> telephone cable for a communication contractor part time. I don't know
> if that analyst job ever came open.  I never looked for it.
>
> I even got into contracting kind of by mistake.  A former employer
> didn't pay me for all the contracting jobs I had sold for them, and one
> of them contacted me through a mutual friend.  I was doing computer
> service and minor upgrades on legacy systems at the time.  ***  The
> customer told me the former employer totally changed the job from what
> they wanted and and tried to get them to sign a new contract.  Obviously
> to cover their asses if I sued for unpaid commissions.  They asked me if
> I would do the job myself the way they actually wanted it.  I borrowed
> some money from my girlfriend (now my wife of 29 years) and a contractor
> was born.
>
> *** At the time I was doing computer service for all the guys who had
> older systems the computer stores didn't want to work on.  They just
> wanted to sell them a new 386.  Some kid couldn't afford a couple grand
> for a new 386, but he could afford 50 bucks for a second hard drive or
> an RLL (or MFM -A) card to increase the capacity of their drive.  A
> buddy of mine who had a computer store sold me all his old PC/XT cards
> for pennies on the dollar.  I could drop a card that literally cost me a
> dollar into somebody's old XT, almost double their drive storage and
> make $49 for my labor.  For an extra $10  (drives were small back then)
> I'd use a home made parallel laplink cable to copy all their files onto
> one of my drives, and restore them after the upgrade making sure their
> machine booted and files were verified before it left my living room.
> Evenings and weekends I delivered pizza.
>
> Back then the Computer Shopper was a real resource instead of a joke. I
> started buying second generation new AT parts that were being closed out
> as new stuff came on the market.  I had a small but decent group of
> customers who were always looking for a deal on a small upgrade.  I'd
> post XX meg SIMMs limited availability on a local bulletin board, and I
> have a half dozen calls before the end of the day to see if I had any
> left.  During that time I used a cobbled together 8088 with a 5meg MFM
> drive running at 9meg with an MFM-A card to access bulletin boards.
>
> Had one kid back then get really mad at me.  He brought me a PC (a real
> PC) for a second drive.  I opened it up and discovered it was an 8086
> with the old board that has no dip switches to set for a second drive. I
> could mechanically install the drive, but the machine wouldn't address
> it.  I told him I could drop a bigger drive in it or install a card to
> increase the size of his existing drive and copy his data, but he just
> called me a liar and a crook and brought his dad to come get his
> computer back.  A year or two later he ran into me and acted all
> friendly like we should be buddies because we knew who each other was.
> ****
>
> **** Had the same thing happen years later with a one day employee. I
> got tired of him just not doing the basic things I told him to do.  We
> went out side to talk about it, and he put up his fists and asked if I
> wanted to fight.  I just told him to get in the truck.  I took him to
> the office, wrote him a check, walked him out to his vehicle and said,
> "Now to be clear you are no longer my employee and you are trespassed
> from this property.  If you want to fight take a swing at me now." Years
> later I ran into him in K-Mart and he did the same thing.  Acted all
> friendly and acted like we should be buddies because we recognized each
> other.  Morons.  The both of them.
>
> That's probably way to much of nothing anybody wants to read.  I still
> feel today like I am fighting to survive sometimes.
>
>

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:u7fjdj$1g5m4$1@dont-email.me...

On 6/27/2023 1:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
....
No. Laplink was a commercial program. At the time most people were
happy to use a null modem adapter and transfer data at at 115K using
RS232. It was still easier than sneaker net. You could buy a null
modem at Radio Shack. A few of us got together one day and looked up
the pin to pin settings for a crossover parallel cable as I soldered up
connector after connector using one buddies 15 watt (I think that's what
he said) iron and another buddies plastic vise. I can do it with a
hotter iron, but it takes a delicate touch. Parallel transfer was
roughly 4 times faster than RS232.

---------------------
The port hardware extends bit times to around 1 microsecond, regardless of
bus speed. I have an 8 input channel, 16 bit A/D converter that I built into
a Macintosh data acquisition card and got back when that project ended. It's
a good candidate to connect to a laptop printer port, someday.
---------------------

I accepted a propane weed burner from a friend the other day to assist
with the type of soldering I am more likely to do in the near future.
Just get the whole damn thing hot!!!

----------------
Car radiator repair?
I'm trying to adapt my 240V HF spotwelder to attach nickel tabs to
batteries. Wish me luck!
----------------

I haven't written any code in a very very long time. I think the last
thing I wrote (g-code doesn't count) was a "screen saver" and boot
program for PCDOS 7.0 for an old AMD 486 I was using to remote program
alarm panels over dial up. I think I compiled it in Quick Basic 4.5.
Rather than replace the defunct battery it just booted into a screen
that demanded you set the date and time blinking randomly around the
screen. I wrote that program in the mid or late 90s. I actually was
still using that computer once in a while for that purpose until I
closed the contracting company on December 31st 2016. I gave it to the
company that bought my contracts. I didn't give them any of my modems.
I sent those all to a friend in the alarm business who just announced
his retirement a few weeks ago. Need some old Hayes 1200 modems? The
special ones with 10 dip switches instead of 8. How about a couple
Cardinal 2400s, a proprietary DSC MD12, a proprietary SK, or a Sporsters
14.4. I bet he would sell them all cheap plus whatever modems he
already had. LOL.

-----------------
My custom screensaver imitated the random character waterfall from The
Matrix. Another programmer's would periodically pop up in large text REPENT,
THE END IS NEAR, which might suddenly appear as you walked by.

I have a 56K Sportster which is one more external modem than I need. When I
had a dialup monthly data limit I wrote a program that read and parsed the
AT commands and status messages in the modem.log for new connections to add
to my bytes count file. That was probably my trickiest, most difficult code
because there were so many combinations of conditions to consider.

In 1970 I "learned" a Western Electric 2400 Baud modem that en- and decoded
with very clever quadrature transformer circuits, somewhat similar to the
hybrid in a phone. It was about the size of a 2 drawer file cabinet, with
two discrete diode-transistor logic gates per card. The instructor didn't
really understand how it worked, though WECO gear never broke.

In the field the data links all used 1200 Baud modems, mostly small, cheap,
unreliable Lenkerts that I hadn't been taught. Some of the German phone
lines the Army leased dated from WW2 and failed when wet. One passed through
Berlin so we knew the Commies were recording the encrypted payroll data,
which might tell them where the tanks are deployed.

It was difficult to find a scope to observe the eye pattern, so like a sonar
operator I learned to diagnose problems by listening to the line with hi-Z
headphones. During Nam the military was starved elsewhere to control costs,
we couldn't even order windshield wiper blades and private purchases from
J.C.Whitney kept the vehicles operating, and the Jeeps didn't remain stock
for long. I bought a VW for $250 and drove it as much as permitted because
it let me stay overnight in village inns (Gasthaus) instead of on Army
bases. Rural Germany was really nice if you spoke the language because so
few Americans had gone there to contaminate it.

"Snag" wrote in message news:u7fnbo$1gr6q$1@dont-email.me...

On 6/27/2023 2:02 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 6/26/2023 1:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...................
I savored every word ... kinda the story of my life , though in
different fields . Ran a home repair or flooring install business days
before I got into cabinet making , and delivered pizza at night to make
ends meet . My wife was a stay-at-home mom (my idea, not hers), I wanted
my kids raised by us instead of daycares and a succession of babysitters .
I no longer feel driven to make ends meet ... our needs are simple ,
everything is paid for and between our SS and a small retirement from
the wife's teaching days we're doing all right .
Snag

-------------------
I read all of it. When other kids were learning about Dick and Jane I was
devouring biographies of adventurers and inventors, such as Roy Chapman
Andrews and Hiram Maxim. I felt very out of place giving a book report on an
epic destroyer vs U-boat battle when others had read what grade schoolers
were supposed to.

Wayne Green the Byte publisher once used me at a party as a bad example of
people who don't experience real life to the extent he thought proper,
because I had taken what seemed to him a safe but boring government job
(after a gypsy summer working at a Renaissance festival). His wife had been
entertaining us with tales of bopping off to Paris for the weekend on some
errand. Hey, I had Heidelberg, a university party town, and a French girl
friend.

On 6/27/2023 6:15 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:u7fnbo$1gr6q$1@dont-email.me...
>
> On 6/27/2023 2:02 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 6/26/2023 1:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> ..................
>   I savored every word ... kinda the story of my life , though in
> different fields . Ran a home repair or flooring install business days
> before I got into cabinet making , and delivered pizza at night to make
> ends meet . My wife was a stay-at-home mom (my idea, not hers), I wanted
> my kids raised by us instead of daycares and a succession of babysitters .
>   I no longer feel driven to make ends meet ... our needs are simple ,
> everything is paid for and between our SS and a small retirement from
> the wife's teaching days we're doing all right .
> Snag
>
> -------------------
> I read all of it. When other kids were learning about Dick and Jane I
> was devouring biographies of adventurers and inventors, such as Roy
> Chapman Andrews and Hiram Maxim. I felt very out of place giving a book
> report on an epic destroyer vs U-boat battle when others had read what
> grade schoolers were supposed to.
>
> Wayne Green the Byte publisher once used me at a party as a bad example
> of people who don't experience real life to the extent he thought
> proper, because I had taken what seemed to him a safe but boring
> government job (after a gypsy summer working at a Renaissance festival).
> His wife had been entertaining us with tales of bopping off to Paris for
> the weekend on some errand. Hey, I had Heidelberg, a university party
> town, and a French girl friend.
>

I'm not sure exactly when I learned to read, but my mom taught me. A lot
of my early experiences sort of run together and pop up in memory from
relational hooks* rather than from direct a chronological chain. I
think the first book I read was a paperback copy of Call of the Wild.
It was a little strange, but when I got half way through the pages were
upside down and backwards. It was a double book with Call of the Wild
on one cover and White Fang on the other. LOL. I think she got tired
of answering me when I asked,"What's this word?" and she taught me how
to use a dictionary. We had a big two volume Webster Dictionary and a
full set of American Educator encyclopedias. I came to hate those
encyclopedias as they were woefully inadequate for any topic I was
really interested in. Anyway, I knew how to read, and do basic math
when I entered the first grade.

We didn't have a local library, and the local grade school library
didn't let you take books home. We had a book mobile that would drive
out once or twice a month from the country library in town. I read
everything they would let me take. A lot of biographies, but other
stuff as well. Harry Houdini and Benjamin Franklin come to mind as a
couple I might have read twice.

My mom had taught me basic math and how to make change in our
businesses. At around 4 she convinced me to buy boxes of candy bars
with Christmas money from Gramma Clements, and put them on the shelves
in our store. She taught me about profit and how I could turn that
money into more money. I had a more short term view of money at that
age, but at the wise old age of four I was a business man. When I say I
have literally been in business my whole life I'm not exaggerating by
much.

I don't tell this to as many people as I used to after a thorough
mocking I received in another machinist group for it. Basically I was
told there was no way I comprehended anything when I was still drooling
on my shirt and shitting myself. That I was just taking credit for what
my mom did and that I didn't know or do shit. Yes, I am aware of the
contradiction in that. LOL. Then most of the group piled on with
clever witticisms like, "Oh, yeah! Well I was racing Nascar when I was
two." I thought about it, but there is no way you can win a fight when
a school yard bully targets you and gets the entire class chanting nasty
comments. I learned that at an early age as well. When I had been
promoted mid year into the second grade which unfortunately contained a
thug who had been held back a year or two. I left the machinist group.
When I first learned the lesson I would have left the second grade if I
could. I thought you guys might more appreciate that anecdote for what
it is.

Which reminds me... many years later that thug walked into a bar where
I was hanging out and asked for some help loading some railroad ties.
He was willing to pay, so me and a buddy made him show the cash first
and we went. I made no bones about making it look like I was slinging
my end of the heavier ties with ease even if it wasn't quite as easy as
I made it look. Afterwards we stopped at a local cafe for a minute
where my friend ordered a burger. Neither I nor the thug ordered
anything but a beverage. When my friend's burger arrived the thug
grabbed it and took a giant bite out of it. I told him it was messed
up, but I didn't really know anything else to do at that moment. A few
days later an opportunity presented itself. He was in our local bar
when I walked in and the bartender had just brought him a sandwich. I
snatched it up, took a giant bite out of it, and said, "Now you know
what it felt like when you did that to Tad." (My friend.)

He was stunned and didn't do anything for a moment. Then he said in a
genuinely inquisitive tone, "So that's why you did that?" Like he had
never realized what he does can come back back to take a big bite out of
his sandwich. I just walked away. A few days later he sought me out
and apologized for the hell he had given me in school. I don't think it
was fear of retribution. I think for the first time in his life he
actually realized what a shit he had been. I didn't name him in this
story on purpose. I don't know that he is a good man today, but he is
certainly a better man than he was in the second grade.

* Relational hooks: When I was contracting I would learn things on the
fly as I needed to. One of my guys once asked me how I was able to
figure out all this stuff. I told him, "All knowledge is useful. Its
not necessarily about being smarter, but about taking the opportunity to
learn things when you can. The more you know the more you can learn and
figure out, because there are hooks where it ties together. Knowing one
thing helps you learn another thing." I don't know if that is actually
correct, but its my shade tree "every man logic" on the subject. It
makes sense and helps explain (or give me an excuse for) why I can learn
some things more easily than others.

My other grandmother once told me she didn't think I was all that smart.
She said she thought I had just been spoon fed knowledge. Maybe, but as
Snag would say, "You can lead a dummy to facts but you can't make him
think."

P.S. Jim, I had some road experience myself. I spent two seasons
traveling with a carnival hustling people out of dollars to win junk. I
was exposed to some good, some bad, and some true evil on the road.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:u7hjjj$1q4no$1@dont-email.me...
>...I came to hate those encyclopedias as they were woefully inadequate for
>any topic I was really interested in. Anyway, I knew how to read, and do
>basic math when I entered the first grade.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2011/09/15/to-be-a-great-leader-dont-be-a-genius-be-a-sponge-and-a-stone/?sh=1f1e4b5e586b

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:u7hjjj$1q4no$1@dont-email.me...

A lot of biographies, but other
stuff as well. Harry Houdini and Benjamin Franklin come to mind as a
couple I might have read twice.

----------------
Speaking of Franklin, this is still in my paste buffer from posting it in
r.a.m, about food on the Space Station:

https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/to-the-royal-academy-of-farting/