Hello all
I'd appreciate fine detail on crimp connectors for "mains" electrics
in a home.

Example - a "straight-through" connector looks something like this

\___________/
___________
/ \

to connect wires which go like this
__ ___
__|====== ======|___

I got offcuts of Earthing cable and crimped them together and tried
pulling them apart.

I found that if you get the crimp tool "snug" up against flare of the
outer end of the crimp-fitting the result is so strong you cannot
feasibly pull the crimped cables apart.

This is the crimp tool I am referring to

https://www.toolstation.com/search?q=crimp+tool
and/or
https://www.toolstation.com/search?q=42429
Product code: 42429
Heavy Duty Semi Ratchet Crimping Tool

Whereas if you clamp the crimp tool anywhere at the 1/4-length you can
pull the assembly apart.
Glad I saw that.

Obviously other use of crimps is to terminate one wire with a lug to
go onto a screwed/bolted connection.

Anything else you can helpfully comment?

This is about the UK.
Voltage 230V (r.m.s.) 50Hz AC.
Regulation of electrical systems in and around buildings in the UK is
known as "18th Edition". Which is also British Standard BS7671.
It is very much more like an American "Code" (eg "ASME9", "AWS D1.1")
rather than in ISO. Has developed in an evolutionary way over
something like 140 years ("first edition" was in the 1880's).

Regards,
Rich Smith

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly4jjptcjk.fsf@void.com...

Hello all
I'd appreciate fine detail on crimp connectors for "mains" electrics
in a home.

----------------------------

When I was doing industrial wiring the proper crimping tools were provided,
and they worked well. At home I won't spend $200 apiece on them so I bought
used ones from flea markets and less satisfactory general purpose tools like
this:
https://www.amazon.com/IWISS-Terminal-Crimping-6-50mm%C2%B2-Electrician/dp/B017S9EINA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

The calibration test for my good used AMP crimper is to measure the closed
jaw gap with drill bit shanks. It was worn and I had to shim it.

In my experience the inexpensive commercial tools for up to 25-30A crimp
connectors are usually satisfactory, I have to experiment to get adequate
results from low cost tools on connectors in the 50A and above range. The
pull test is standard and easy to do with a fishing scale, I also measure
the resistance with a microOhm meter and look for numbers comparable to the
wire resistance, my first PP120 screw connector mod measured 0.68 milliOhms.

https://s3vi.ndc.nasa.gov/ssri-kb/static/resources/nasa-std-8739.4a.pdf
The pull test values are on page 54. Detailed operating instructions come
with the crimping tool.

Thermal imagers have come down in price and are very useful for finding hot
spots in live circuits caused by bad connections. Yesterday I found a 30A
fuse that was overheating at 13A and replaced it with a better name brand
one that runs cool.

If you solder a crimped connector, apply it at the exposed end of the wire
and don't use enough to wick all the way through, the wires need to be able
to flex individually where they come out. You shouldn't need to if you have
the proper tool. I make do with what I have and then measure the result.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

Wow! Even this "cheap" tool looks formidable.

> ... and less satisfactory
> general purpose tools like this:
> https://www.amazon.com/IWISS-Terminal-Crimping-6-50mm%C2%B2-Electrician/dp/B017S9EINA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
> ...

Pull-out test:
I'm talking about - one end of the cable in a vice, put a vice-grip /
locking-pliers on the cable and welt the locking-pliers with a copper
mallet until the cable is a mess but the crimp hasn't let-go.
Much more force than this polite requirement.

> ...
> https://s3vi.ndc.nasa.gov/ssri-kb/static/resources/nasa-std-8739.4a.pdf
> The pull test values are on page 54. Detailed operating instructions
> come with the crimping tool.
> ...

On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 17:26:41 +0100
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

>I'm talking about - one end of the cable in a vice, put a vice-grip /
>locking-pliers on the cable and welt the locking-pliers with a copper
>mallet until the cable is a mess but the crimp hasn't let-go.
>Much more force than this polite requirement.
<snip>

For most applications that kind of pull-out isn't necessary and maybe
not even desirable...

Years ago we lost a large spruce tree during a storm. When it came down
it pulled the Power Companies crimp connections apart where they
connected to the house wires at the weather head/mast. So all I had to
do was cut-off what was left of the crimp and use Split-Bolts to
reattach them. Viola! I had power in the house again. Had those crimps
held it would have pulled the mast down and/or tore part of my roof out.

IMO you only get a perfect crimp connection with crimps, crimper and
specific wire all made to be used together. If any of those three vary
it will be either too tight or loose.

Most of the failed crimps I came across while working were put on with
the wrong crimp tool. Plastic tool used on bare crimp or worse the bare
crimp tool used on plastic covered crimps.

Then there were the ones that stripped the wire too long or didn't
bother to strip it and crimped on the wire insulation...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

> I'd appreciate fine detail on crimp connectors for "mains" electrics
> in a home.> Example - a "straight-through" connector looks something
> like this
>
> \___________/
> ___________
> / \
>
> to connect wires which go like this
> __ ___
> __|====== ======|___
>
> I got offcuts of Earthing cable and crimped them together and tried
> pulling them apart.
>
> I found that if you get the crimp tool "snug" up against flare of the
> outer end of the crimp-fitting the result is so strong you cannot
> feasibly pull the crimped cables apart.
[... crimper links]
> Whereas if you clamp the crimp tool anywhere at the 1/4-length you can
> pull the assembly apart.
[...]
> This is about the UK.
> Voltage 230V (r.m.s.) 50Hz AC.
> Regulation of electrical systems in and around buildings in the UK is
> known as "18th Edition". Which is also British Standard BS7671.
> It is very much more like an American "Code" (eg "ASME9", "AWS D1.1")
> rather than in ISO. Has developed in an evolutionary way over
> something like 140 years ("first edition" was in the 1880's).

As I understand it, US code for line voltage wiring requires
continuous runs without connectors when a wire run is concealed; any
connection must be accessible. If that's not a UK requirement, US
experience with crimped butt splices for mains power wire hidden away
in house walls might be irrelevant, unsanctioned, or nonexistent.
That aside, I imagine many of us have used butt splices for automotive
etc low voltage wiring, or for motor wiring, and your comments on the
splice strength depending on the crimp point are useful and welcome.

Thanks for comment.
This is Earthing (Grounding) cable under floorboards - best if it
stays together and then some...

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyfs38ajzy.fsf@void.com...

Pull-out test:
I'm talking about - one end of the cable in a vice, put a vice-grip /
locking-pliers on the cable and welt the locking-pliers with a copper
mallet until the cable is a mess but the crimp hasn't let-go.
Much more force than this polite requirement.

----------------------------

That test to destruction will prove your equipment and methods but isn't for
checking each connection before installing it. The 'polite' pull test checks
for crimps that didn't pressure-weld together. The wire should have a nearby
strain relief clamp that protects the connection from being pulled apart
during further installation or remodeling.

"James Waldby" wrote in message news:uefcmb$32aeq$1@dont-email.me...

Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

> I'd appreciate fine detail on crimp connectors for "mains" electrics
> in a home.> Example - a "straight-through" connector looks something
> like this
>
> \___________/
> ___________
> / \
>
> to connect wires which go like this
> __ ___
> __|====== ======|___
>
> I got offcuts of Earthing cable and crimped them together and tried
> pulling them apart.
>
> I found that if you get the crimp tool "snug" up against flare of the
> outer end of the crimp-fitting the result is so strong you cannot
> feasibly pull the crimped cables apart.
[... crimper links]
> Whereas if you clamp the crimp tool anywhere at the 1/4-length you can
> pull the assembly apart.
[...]
> This is about the UK.
> Voltage 230V (r.m.s.) 50Hz AC.
> Regulation of electrical systems in and around buildings in the UK is
> known as "18th Edition". Which is also British Standard BS7671.
> It is very much more like an American "Code" (eg "ASME9", "AWS D1.1")
> rather than in ISO. Has developed in an evolutionary way over
> something like 140 years ("first edition" was in the 1880's).

As I understand it, US code for line voltage wiring requires
continuous runs without connectors when a wire run is concealed; any
connection must be accessible.

-------------------------

In the amateur radio requirements for lightning grounds this is the
acceptable copper splice:
https://waterwelders.com/what-is-cad-welding/

Although this strongly recommends against gas welding it suggests that it is
still allowed to join copper grounds:
https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-magazine/safety-management-magazine/2019/down-to-earth/

You may be heading toward a situation where only illegal immigrants can
perform dangerous tasks, like yours.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyfs38ajzy.fsf@void.com...
>
> Pull-out test:
> I'm talking about - one end of the cable in a vice, put a vice-grip /
> locking-pliers on the cable and welt the locking-pliers with a copper
> mallet until the cable is a mess but the crimp hasn't let-go.
> Much more force than this polite requirement.
>
> ----------------------------
>
> That test to destruction will prove your equipment and methods but
> isn't for checking each connection before installing it. The 'polite'
> pull test checks for crimps that didn't pressure-weld together. The
> wire should have a nearby strain relief clamp that protects the
> connection from being pulled apart during further installation or
> remodeling.

Yes.
But testing your process and finding out its characteristics,
hopefully finding a robust operating mode which gives results
somewhere up near ideal and/or certainly way beyond any reasonable
acceptable threshold is the number-one in any manufacturing situation,
surely?

Coming from my unusual background and finding my own way, I have been
amazed who people make things difficult and expensive for themselves
and everyone looking at just creeping over the line with requirements.
No dynamic thought about how the processes run and no thought of
variables interaction.
Where it would be a lot lot lot cheaper to look-at and consider the
process(es), do rough-and-ready tests looking for amongst good guesses
what gives good results - hopefully find one or more so close up
to ideal and so broad in its stability range that the production run
becomes low-cost.

People get mesmerised by the minimum acceptance criterion/criteria, to
the exclusion of all other.
Sign of a "service economy / managerial / post-industrial world" ?

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>> ...

>
> In the amateur radio requirements for lightning grounds this is the
> acceptable copper splice:
> https://waterwelders.com/what-is-cad-welding/
>
> Although this strongly recommends against gas welding it suggests that
> it is still allowed to join copper grounds:
> https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-magazine/safety-management-magazine/2019/down-to-earth/
>
> You may be heading toward a situation where only illegal immigrants
> can perform dangerous tasks, like yours.

Another very interesting whole new view of how things can be done.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly4jjo80kf.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyfs38ajzy.fsf@void.com...
>
> Pull-out test:
> I'm talking about - one end of the cable in a vice, put a vice-grip /
> locking-pliers on the cable and welt the locking-pliers with a copper
> mallet until the cable is a mess but the crimp hasn't let-go.
> Much more force than this polite requirement.
>
> ----------------------------
>
> That test to destruction will prove your equipment and methods but
> isn't for checking each connection before installing it. The 'polite'
> pull test checks for crimps that didn't pressure-weld together. The
> wire should have a nearby strain relief clamp that protects the
> connection from being pulled apart during further installation or
> remodeling.

Yes.
But testing your process and finding out its characteristics,
hopefully finding a robust operating mode which gives results
somewhere up near ideal and/or certainly way beyond any reasonable
acceptable threshold is the number-one in any manufacturing situation,
surely?

Coming from my unusual background and finding my own way, I have been
amazed who people make things difficult and expensive for themselves
and everyone looking at just creeping over the line with requirements.
No dynamic thought about how the processes run and no thought of
variables interaction.
Where it would be a lot lot lot cheaper to look-at and consider the
process(es), do rough-and-ready tests looking for amongst good guesses
what gives good results - hopefully find one or more so close up
to ideal and so broad in its stability range that the production run
becomes low-cost.

People get mesmerised by the minimum acceptance criterion/criteria, to
the exclusion of all other.
Sign of a "service economy / managerial / post-industrial world" ?

----------------------------

I do what you suggest, and have the equipment to measure the results. It
isn't common and may be expensive so I don't usually mention the procedures
or necessary test gear here.

Contact and crimp resistance:
https://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/KEITHLEY-580-Datasheet.pdf
The voltage drop with 1.00A flowing through the connection is also a good
measure, then 1mV = 1milliOhm.

Insulation resistance:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274833931917
It's also useful to test old electrical appliances. I've had to disassemble
and clean a few to make them safe again.

Overheating:
https://www.vevor.com/thermal-imaging-camera-c_11961/vevor-infrared-thermal-imager-thermal-camera-ir-resolution-240x180-2-8-lcd-screen-p_010117537355?adp=gmc&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_id=20324005678&utm_term=
I bought it to check the house insulation and found many other uses. It
found hot and cold areas I had missed with an IR thermometer, and inner
areas of a roasted chicken that weren't yet done.

Pull force:
https://www.vevor.com/crane-scale-c_10459/hanging-scale-crane-scale-1000-kg-2000-lb-digital-industrial-heavy-duty-auto-off-p_010231654597
It's to proof test my home made hoisting equipment and check loads that
might overstress it, mainly heavy logs and boulders. It also tests fiber and
wire rope splice strength. This type failed:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3-16-in-Zinc-Plated-Flush-Type-Wire-Rope-Clamp-2-Pack-42984/205883072

Applying the pull:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Vestil-2-000-lbs-Capacity-10-ft-Lift-Professional-Lever-Hoist-PLH-20-10/303099071
It's much handier than a chainfall for horizontal pulls, though I think
those are better and safer for vertical hoisting because you can lift higher
and stand further away. My Harbor Freight 1300# electric hoist doesn't allow
fine position control and starts with a considerable jolt that flexes the
supporting beam.

Those may not be the model I own or price I paid, often second-hand and
overdue for calibration. I've been experimenting with the consequences of
avoiding fossil fuel by using solar electricity and found several problems
in available equipment with my test gear.

Personally I want to be satisfied with my workmanship but commercially there
was no reward for doing better than required if it took longer and cost
more, which was typically the case once you learned to work efficiently. The
requirements were supposed to be matched to the specs of available products,
and generally were for US manufacturers. I don't see that with imports and
test before using.

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/schlock

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly4jjo80kf.fsf@void.com...

People get mesmerised by the minimum acceptance criterion/criteria, to
the exclusion of all other.
Sign of a "service economy / managerial / post-industrial world" ?

------------------------

I've come to believe that acceptance criteria can be valid if written by
people with both theoretical and practical knowledge, but they may prefer to
avoid working in a bureaucracy, leaving neurotic paper-pushing staffers with
literary degrees to formulate them from incomplete written sources. Mitre
was an attempt to isolate scientists and engineers working on government
projects from its bureaucracy. Yesterday a very hands-on and disgusted
municipal employee and I were discussing how the bureaucracy is a welfare
refuge for managers whose emotional dysfunction keeps them from working
commercially.

Like you my combination of knowledge and practical skills provokes envy and
resentment from those who consider themselves inherently superior because it
feels good, like the aristos of the Ancien Regime and today's leftists.

Much of the Internet ad copy for high tech products and new developments
appears to come from writers who don't comprehend the subject beyond quoting
what they think they were told, and may lack the practical ability to change
a light bulb or tie their shoelaces. Look at the insulting comments on the
writer's incompetence that follow Yahoo high tech articles. I have
experience here, I've struggled to teach actors how to build scenery and
intelligent Mensans how to paddle a canoe. Hardly any could learn to tie a
bowline. The actors felt such work was beneath them when really it was
beyond them.

On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:47:32 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>wire rope splice strength. This type failed:
>https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3-16-in-Zinc-Plated-Flush-Type-Wire-Rope-Clamp-2-Pack-42984/205883072

I had not seen those before. Makes for a nice end without all the sharp
areas like U-Bolts do. Too bad it doesn't hold up well...

It reminds me of the electric connector I liked to use for a triplex
service hook-up:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-Single-Bolt-Parallel-Groove-Clamp-for-2-4-0-Wire-65176240/312648492

Allows aluminum to copper connections and is easy to tighten up. Sucks
to tape up but can't have every thing😉

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 09:50:19 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
> I have
>experience here, I've struggled to teach actors how to build scenery and
>intelligent Mensans how to paddle a canoe. Hardly any could learn to tie a
>bowline. The actors felt such work was beneath them when really it was
>beyond them.

Well said👍

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:uehlae$3igm5$1@dont-email.me...

On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:47:32 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>wire rope splice strength. This type failed:
>https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3-16-in-Zinc-Plated-Flush-Type-Wire-Rope-Clamp-2-Pack-42984/205883072

I had not seen those before. Makes for a nice end without all the sharp
areas like U-Bolts do. Too bad it doesn't hold up well...

---------------------------

IIRC it slipped at around 100#. I had tightened it by hand in the woods, it
might grip better if tightened with an impact driver, or a cap screw
substituted. They could be useful to drag an eye splice over a high branch
or minimize the fumbling of installing Crosby clamps and thimbles.

On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:34:29 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>IIRC it slipped at around 100#. I had tightened it by hand in the woods, it
>might grip better if tightened with an impact driver, or a cap screw
>substituted. They could be useful to drag an eye splice over a high branch
>or minimize the fumbling of installing Crosby clamps and thimbles.

It's stored in my head now. For some unknown reason I remember stuff
like that for a long time. Neighbor's name down the street is a
different story🙄

Could be useful, keeping in mind that it may not be a "strong"
connection... Thanks!

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 9/21/2023 8:50 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:ly4jjo80kf.fsf@void.com...
>
> People get mesmerised by the minimum acceptance criterion/criteria, to
> the exclusion of all other.
> Sign of a "service economy / managerial / post-industrial world" ?
>
> ------------------------
>
> I've come to believe that acceptance criteria can be valid if written by
> people with both theoretical and practical knowledge, but they may
> prefer to avoid working in a bureaucracy, leaving neurotic paper-pushing
> staffers with literary degrees to formulate them from incomplete written
> sources.  Mitre was an attempt to isolate scientists and engineers
> working on government projects from its bureaucracy. Yesterday a very
> hands-on and disgusted municipal employee and I were discussing how the
> bureaucracy is a welfare refuge for managers whose emotional dysfunction
> keeps them from working commercially.
>
> Like you my combination of knowledge and practical skills provokes envy
> and resentment from those who consider themselves inherently superior
> because it feels good, like the aristos of the Ancien Regime and today's
> leftists.
>
> Much of the Internet ad copy for high tech products and new developments
> appears to come from writers who don't comprehend the subject beyond
> quoting what they think they were told, and may lack the practical
> ability to change a light bulb or tie their shoelaces. Look at the
> insulting comments on the writer's incompetence that follow Yahoo high
> tech articles. I have experience here, I've struggled to teach actors
> how to build scenery and intelligent Mensans how to paddle a canoe.
> Hardly any could learn to tie a bowline. The actors felt such work was
> beneath them when really it was beyond them.
>

I am very lucky to live among people (our little community down here
in The Holler) who appreciate and utilize my talents rather than being
intimidated by them . Of course , every one of them has areas where they
shine , and I appreciate that too .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .